Newbie 1104 -- Game over

[Twistedspoon]

I want catchup posts from Haylen, CC and Espe shortly

If a doctor protected CC or Espe then it makes them very likely town and that would be useful info to know so we don't go barking up the wrong tree.
In fact if we do have a doc he and the person he protected would be confirmed town

probably not a food idea to claim now though

and Haylen will outclass my ICness and make me feel like i'm a newbie again :3

to get things going

VOTE: Noragar
can't deny otolia was pro-norgar

ninja'd: Hey haylen. I've always considered myself confirmed town since I got my role PM. I don't think you should though; you don't have my role PM i mean

also, when you catchup you'll see the reasons why i think your slot is 99% conf town after Otolia's flip

[CaptainCuddles]

Hello Rena.... I mean Haylen
@gbevilchaos: flip bandwagoned with TS because TS asked him to. flip doesn't seem scummie from my pov.

[Twistedspoon]

flip is town

probably might make a small noragar case if i feel like it

[Twistedspoon]

forget that

flip isn't town. I'm not sure

looking back It's possible it could be a bus. hang on

[Twistedspoon]

flip's ISO

he's on otolia like a yo-yo

I mean

Otolia's play is a little scummy overall, though. I can link to a recently ended town win with him being the hammer in lylo.

These sentences seem contradictory; what I'm saying is that he has his ups and his downs. It'd be best to shake him first, for sure.

what happened to this reason for otolia town?

Otolia, in a hypothetical world where you're scum... who would be your partner?

and this question looks like fair bussing material. I can't see what else it could be

I have no idea what alignment flippy is. He's certainly helpful though in the otolia wagon.

this is your call town

[gbevilchaos]

flip's ISO

he's on otolia like a yo-yo

I mean

Otolia's play is a little scummy overall, though. I can link to a recently ended town win with him being the hammer in lylo.

These sentences seem contradictory; what I'm saying is that he has his ups and his downs. It'd be best to shake him first, for sure.

what happened to this reason for otolia town?

Otolia, in a hypothetical world where you're scum... who would be your partner?

and this question looks like fair bussing material. I can't see what else it could be

I have no idea what alignment flippy is. He's certainly helpful though in the otolia wagon.

this is your call town

Hmm. That could very easily be bussing. The answer to that question would be so WIFOM that it would be of literally no use. Asking the question in the first place seems suspicious.

I'd like to hear Flip's reasoning behind it before I say anything. Was it just a joke?

[noragar]

Welcome back.

Here's my reads at the moment:

TwistedSpoon, gbevilchaos, and the Frostbite/Haylen spot - moderately strong town reads

forest_air - null - I caught a couple things toward the end of Day 1 that made me question my previous town read on her. Not enough to suspect as scum, but something I want to keep an eye on. I'll give specifics when the time is right.

Espeonage, CaptainCuddles - null - not really enough info to make an informed decision. I suspected CC early on for the explanation of L-1ing early on, but I'm willing to attribute that to inexperience. These two have pretty much stayed in the background the whole time. That in and of itself could be reason to suspect one of them, but I don't have anything specific or any indication to indicate which would be more likely.

Chkflip - leaning scum - my most likely candidate at the moment for reasons given when I had my vote on him during Day 1. So until something happens to change my mind, that's where my vote will be:

Vote: Chkflip

[Haylen]

Questions

1) I have loads of mafia experience. Have been on this site for years, played just over 70 games. Modded quite a lot too mostly newbie games. Was nominated for best third party in my first year on site, best fake claim last year and best game flavour both years. This is my first experience with the new setup, however.

2) I live in England.

3) My activity will greatly diminish at the weekend due to work. I will be receiving my exam results either late June or early July, so my posting at that time will depend on how depressed I am about my results. I can't foresee anything else that might cause me to not post...

CC is a Publisher...this could be useful information for myself in the future.

Noragar

Comes to a conclusion that I would expect someone who is town to over CC putting an L-1 vote so early in the game. Having an eye out for scum rather than lynching a townie is good, it shows that his motivations are town based. I do find it interesting that he never considers 'no lynch' in his explanations, however. I also like that he wants people to take their time over commiting to a lynch.

I would like to ask him what he considers the difference between newbie town play and newbie scum play to be.

As far as easy town cred, I assume you mean answering someone's question about what abbreviations meant? Really??? That's scummy??? Why single me out to FoS instead of also FoS'ing Twisted who said almost the exact same thing at the exact same time?

Slightly too emotional for me. It is common for inexperienced mafia to panic when they are being attacked. Although I do accept that this attack was poorly thought out. Going to keep an eye out on Noragar's emotions throughout the game to try and work him out.

In post 7 he votes for CaptainCuddles without an explanation. Why is this? Scum motivation for doing this would be in order to either slip through the net and backtrack easily. Not give CC anything to defend himself with afterall, you can't defend yourself from a hidden attack - this would lead to CC becoming emotional and being easy lynch bait. Or it would allow Noragar to think up reasons for why CC is scum because he didn't have any reasons for voting him at that time.

I suspected him early on (see viewtopic.php?p=3046023#p3046023) and since that time, he hasn't said anything which would allay those suspicions, and I don't see anybody else as a more likely candidate at the moment.

So why not vote him when he first suspected him?

Town Motivation

Because he wanted to give CaptainCuddles the chance to defend himself from his suspicions rather than jumping in and voting for him.

Scum Motivation

Because he wanted to see how easy it would be to persuade others in the game to vote for CC and to obtain a lynched from him. Fence sitting could also be an issue, it would allow him to backtrack. By not voting to lynch CC, he could easily claim later on that he thought he was mafia due to posting that he suspected him - it means he does not have to commit himself to a lynch.

I like his defence against CKflip. At this point, Ckflip should back off and leave it. Scum would carry on attacking. However, I have noticed a lack of scumhunting on Noragar's part, it has basically been tunnelling on CaptainCuddles and defending himself.

Scum Motivation

Scum are more interested in defending themselves when they are under fire, than they are in scumhunting. To them, survival is imperative.

Town Motivation

Newbie townies, however, seem to be exempt from this rule. They think if they die, the town is guaranteed to lose. To the townies of this game, I implore you to scumhunt more than you defend yourself - catching scum is much more important than stopping yourself from being lynched. Trust the rest of the town, if you form a good enough case and you die, you WILL be listened to still. I'll make sure of it.

But you can't go back and edit or delete posts, so there it sits.

*cough* Not going to lie, I can. But it's not something worth ruining my reputation over.

My question is to Chkflip as to why when he sees two people do the exact same thing, he FoS's one of them and says nothing about the other one

This is a good point. Interestingly, emotions seem to be unpanicked - had he been replying to Otolia earlier in the game when attacked, I would have believed them to be scumbuddies.

TS's vote was based on little reason and there wasn't anything to be gained by questioning it

What?

Scum Motivation

Avoiding the attack. Sometimes it is easier for you to ignore a vote than it is to question it and form a defense.

Town Motivation

Laziness.

I thought that when the original person disappeared immediately, I though it was more likely that someone would just walk away after getting dealt a VT role than either a scum or a power role

NEVER speculate about peoples reasons for replacing out of a game.

Scum Motivation

To deter from logical talk during the game. To obtain a baseless easy lynch. To vote for someone who is unable to defend themselves.

Town Motivation

You get at least one newbie in a game who does this. However, I seem to remember Nora saying he has experience in playing.

And let my final statement be that if the town follows through and lynches me on this little evidence with more than a week to go before the deadline then I hold out very little hope at backdooring a win.

Appealing to emotion. Anger at the town lynching him. Opts to post this instead of giving detailed reads.

Scum Motivation

Scum seem to be under the illusion quite a bit that the town will be threatened by the words they say when they get angry at them for attempting to lynch them. Scum also would not give their reads at lynching because they fear accidentally giving away information that would help the town to lynch their scumbuddy.

Town Motivation

If a townie feels that the evidence against them is bad, then they would feel they are leaving the game in incompetant hands. However, there is no town motivation for not providing the town with information to go on once they have been lynched.

Iso Post 15 is buddying. Scum like to buddy because if they get lynched, it could make the town believe that the person they buddied is their scum buddy. Town motivation is just plain friendliness. However, the nature of this post leaves a bitter taste in my mouth.

That's one reason that I didn't change my vote as soon as he started coming after me.

Obvious OMGUS intent rather than any actual reason for wanting him to be lynched. There are no town motivations for this.

I'd be willing to go along with an Otolia lynch for D1.

Opportunistic. Town would most likely refuse to change the vote they have been fighting for for the majority of the day.

Conclusion:

I am spotting quite a few scum motivations from Noragars post and would agree that he is quite scummy here.

Will do the rest tomorrow. It's nearly midnight.

[Espeonage]

catchup coming in two days. That will be last day of uni semester.

[noragar]

Thanks for the very interesting analysis Haylen. Regardless of the outcome and regardless of my alignment in this game details like this will be very helpful to me down the road. I actually agree with most of what you have to say.

One thing you did miss - you say somewhere in there that I said I have experience. This is my second game. No other experience on this server, any other server, or in any real life games.

What seems to be the recurring theme in your comments has to do with the abundance of defense instead of scumhunting. I think the lack of "scumhunting" comes from a lack of experience in scum-hunting methods. I don't really know what techniques are effective and which aren't, so rather than driving the action, I've tended to sit back and observe. The kinds of things I'm looking for are inconsistency of statements or actions, faulty logic, and people making statements with unsound reasoning behind them. I didn't want to initiate much scumhunting myself because I thought I was likely to make mistakes in those same areas that I was keying in on - not due to being scum, but due to being inexperienced. While it's the goal of scum not to appear scummy, I think it's also a goal for the town not to appear scummy.

As an example, take the case of Chkflip asking Otolia "Hypothetically, if you were scum, who would be your partner?" Just a few posts back, this was pointed out as sounding like a "scummy" attempt at scumhunting. I could easily see myself making a similar kind of mistake by using ineffective scumhunting techniques drawing suspicion on myself. Or in my first game where, like CC in this game, I took someone to L-1 on Page 2 in what I thought was a valid method, but turned out to be misguided method of scumhunting.

As far as the emotional defense - I had already made the logical arguments to refute every case that was presented against me. It looked like I was still about to be lynched, so I turned to the emotional reaction. Here is where we slightly disagree. In that particular situation, I think self-survival is important. I didn't have a solid case to present for anyone else to be scum. It would have been counterproductive to stretch things and try to fabricate a case against someone. Anything I said would have been wild speculation. I didn't know 100% who should be lynched. I only knew 100% that it shouldn't be me.

I understand that as a townie, the town win condition trumps whether I'm alive or dead at the end of the game. And I have no problem taking a lynch if it helps the town's chance of winning in any way. In this instance, however, the town would have gained nothing. It would have been no different than a lynch on Page 2 during the RVS. At that point, there was no case against me that had any merit, and I really didn't see any useful information that the town would have gained with that lynch.

I have no problem being lynched if it makes logical sense to need to eliminate me as a suspect, or if my flipping town leads to a strong probability that someone else is scum, or if since I've claimed Vanilla townie it's safer to lynch me that it is to risk lynching a power role, or if I'm less experienced and thus less helpful in catching scum, or any other reason that furthers the town's game and chances of winning. But if I don't see anything like that being the case, then I'm going to fight for survival.

[forest_air]

@noragar: To answer your question from the last day, I was just basing my opinions off of what had recently occured in the voting. I said I was going to go read over what happened to get a better read on the alive players. Unfortunately I am going to be very busy this week so I'm not sure when I'll have the time to do that.

As TS did earlier with Otolia being scum, I'm willing to get lynched because over the last few days I've skimmed over and chkflip hasn't done anything especially scummy. I'll provide my reasoning when I get back as I'm short on time even as I type this. I know this is very lame, but my gut tells me that chkflip is innocent. And you have been near the top of my list, so that's all I have to say for now.

Vote: noragar

@NS : Going V/LA

[Nobody Special]

@NS : Going V/LA

......Forever?

[Twistedspoon]

CC is a Publisher...this could be useful information for myself in the future.

iknowrite

Hmm. That could very easily be bussing. The answer to that question would be so WIFOM that it would be of literally no use. Asking the question in the first place seems suspicious.

My thoughts exactly

you and I are on the same wavelength here :s

[Haylen]

Noragar Response

One thing you did miss - you say somewhere in there that I said I have experience. This is my second game. No other experience on this server, any other server, or in any real life games.

This was a trap I set up. I delibrately put it in the 'Town motivation' section that only a newbie could could have town motivation in that circumstance. I also knew that Noragar was less experienced than I was implying him to be. My aim there was to see how important he considered this mistake compared to responding to my analysis, this would be determined by whether it was put at the top of his response or the bottom of it. Scum are more likely to put it at the top as they desperately wish to be seen to have town motivations, town would put it at the bottom because in the grand scheme of the game - for a townie - this mistake wouldn't matter.

I think the lack of "scumhunting" comes from a lack of experience in scum-hunting methods.

This is how I would expect scum to reply, HOWEVER combine it with the following and it's how I would expect a town player to respond

The kinds of things I'm looking for are inconsistency of statements or actions, faulty logic, and people making statements with unsound reasoning behind them.

This would explain you're emotional reactions. It's common for newbies to prefer to take a back seat when it comes to scum hunting in the beginning especially on Day One.

Or in my first game where, like CC in this game, I took someone to L-1 on Page 2 in what I thought was a valid method, but turned out to be misguided method of scumhunting.

Did you consider that CC's methods to scumhunting may have been misguided, just as yours were in your first game? I would also like to point out at this stage that early game bandwagons to L-1 are quite a common and certainly valid method of scum hunting as it applies pressure to the person being voted and a reaction would be gained. If scum quick hammer, you've found your scum team! Simple as. Scum wouldn't lynch a player so early in the game - it would draw attention to themselves and bring them out in the open.

I didn't have a solid case to present for anyone else to be scum. It would have been counterproductive to stretch things and try to fabricate a case against someone. Anything I said would have been wild speculation.

I promised myself that I wouldn't put on my IC hat in this game since I'm not the IC. Tell me if I step on your toes, anywhere TS! In this circumstance, you need to re-read the thread, look at it from every angle possible. Because I can guarantee you, by this time in the game, scum have already slipped up somewhere. Whether it's an obvious place or not is an entirely different matter. A town players job is to try and find it.

But if I don't see anything like that being the case, then I'm going to fight for survival.

Would it surprise you if I told you that the scum currently have the strategic advantage over town? Without taking roles and knowing who each other is into account.

I have liked Noragar's responses and am currently giving him the benefit of the doubt.

Forest_air

Random votes twice. The reason I see this as a problem is that the second vote was on Lord of the graves, whom Otolia had replaced. Scum will quite often vote for their scum buddies during the random voting stage in order to distance from each other. If we're dealing with inexperienced scum here, I doubt that would be the case. The vote hopping itself isn't the problem, it's random vote of a confirmed scum that is. Why did Forest_Air hop off of Noragar in the first place anyway?

Scum Motivation

Because he realised it would be a good idea to try and distance himself from his buddy during the early stages of the game.

Town Motivation

General confusion.

From what I've seen, scum tend to vote in the middle to hide themselves and look like townies, and since gbevilchaos is already at L-2, adding another vote just encourages an opening for other scum to bandwagon and lynch off innocent townies.

A common misconception. Scum don't give a crap what their voting patterns are in that way, they care who they vote for but not where they are on the bandwagon.

I don't really think analyzing a person's posts or judging their reactions are a good way to determine whether or not they are scum.

Then what is a good way? Since that is what scum hunting is and is generally the only thing we have to help us in a game.

Obviously TwistedSpoon has more experience than I do in this game, making his arguements more influential towards other players.

If he starts using his IC status to achieve a lynch, then turn around and lynch him instead. Seriously.

Also, I'd like to note how both of the people who haven't voted yet haven't posted for over two days.

Why is this scummy? If it's not, then why post it at all? What's so noteworthy about it?

"In one game I played..." <--- I seem to remember you saying earlier in the game that you had only played one game prior to this one. *tut tut* Lying about your experience level. Scum would do this because it would allowed them to go under the radar a little since inexperienced scum are more likely to make mistakes that an experienced scum would.

Voting isn't the only means of questioning someone's vote. He could have easily just compiled a list of suspicious things about CC and left it at that

But earlier on, he outright said that votes were the only way in which to scumhunt.
V

I don't really think analyzing a person's posts or judging their reactions are a good way to determine whether or not they are scum.

This is a mixture of backtracking and hypocrisy in the form of double standards.

Scum Motivation

Scum want the town to be doing all the work, they want to do as little as possible. Hence why if forest_air was scum, it would make sense that he considers that he should only be doing vote count analysis but is asking other people to write about what they find suspicious about other players.

Town Motivation

Maybe he saw that there was other ways to scumhunt.

You seem to be lying about being a townie, even though you are obviously scum.

Here, Forest's votes are not reflecting his suspicions. If they were, then he would clearly be voting for CC when in fact he's voting for TwistedSpoon.

Scum Motivation

This is a form of fence sitting. It will allow Forest to not come under suspicion if either CaptainCuddles of Twistedspoon are lynched. Scum like to do this for the easy ride.

Town Motivation

Cant think of any right now.

Instead I'm gonna suspect the chkflip for being new.

What? This is a bad reason to vote for someone.

Scum Motivation

There are some newbie scum, from my experience, who rather than tunnelling (which I consider a town thing) are under the impression that the more people they claim to suspect the less likely it is that they are going to be caught as scum. I'm not exactly sure why, it's just something I've noticed amongst the newer players.

There is no town motivation for making votes based on bad logic.

You're not the only new person here. Even if you didn't understand what the hell you were doing, being new isn't really much of an excuse, as anyone could claim themselves to be new. This makes you seem more scummy.

This was disproportionate to what CaptainCuddles had said

Scum Motivation

Scum like to pick on easy targets to obtain a lynch, it's just easier that way for them. The reason I think this was more scum motivated was because of the amount of reaching Forest had to do in order to see that post as playing the newbie card. It's also very interesting to note that at this time the vote count was:

198Frostbite - 2 - CaptainCuddles, Lord of Graves
CaptainCuddles - 2 - forest_air, noragar

Lord of Graves - 2 - Twistedspoon, gbevilchaos

One of the three people there is now confirmed scum, another one is being voted for by said confirmed scum (and in my point of view the votee is confirmed town.) It would have been very suspicious for Forest to switch from CaptainCuddles to Frostbite if Lord of the Graves happened to be lynched on Day One thus Forest_Air would have needed to push as hard as possible for CC's lynch as to suddenly switch would have created a bond (wrong word, can't think of the right one, it's close though) between the two of them.

Town Motivation

Was mistaken about the use of the newbie card in this situation.

Now I'm wondering why LoG voted for Frostbite with such little evidence. And CC's motivation to do so.

Taking note of this and will come back to it. Someone remind me if I happen to forget.

I find it very interesting in Iso post 17 that Forest specifically mentions CaptainCuddles in conjunction with LoG. Based on this post, I am almost certain that if CaptainCuddle's flips town at any time, then Forest is scum. I'm reading the post as quite fake with the intent of placing CC under suspicion of LoG is ever lynched - which looked quite likely at the time of the post.

Yeah, I thought that was a little weird, too. But you aren't exactly posting a lot. Scum try to blend in, so maybe he changed his mind.

I'd expect this from a townie.

But that would be reckless and stupid, as we have several IRL days before this day ends. But on the other hand, I'm almost tempted to do it. Noragar has been fairly inactive, and doesn't give much reasoning for his votes, which is really bothering me.

Cautiousness.

Scum Motivation

Scum, I would say, are much more cautious than town. In this circumstance, I am certain that a scum player would be cautious about putting another player at L-1. They will do it after seeking approval from the rest of the game and in a way, TwistedSpoon gave that approval by saying Noragar was most likely scum.

Town Motivation

Some townies are cautious because they are newbies. Any townie should have the balls to put down a well reasoned vote, if the player being voted flips town, then a townie shouldn't worry about trying to convince the rest of the town that they themselves are town. For example, as either role, I don't care if what I'm writing seems scummy or not, I know that when it comes to it, if I need to defend myself over what I have said then I can.

And I don't really get the point of roleclaiming in a newbie game, because everyone is going to say they're Vanilla Townies, since the PRs will get killed at night by the mafia if they confess and the mafia won't roleclaim as scum for obvious reasons.

NEVER LIE ABOUT YOUR ROLE AS TOWN. IT WILL COME BACK TO BITE YOU HARD ON THE JACKSIE.

But how he plays in another game doesn't supply much evidence for what he has in mind for this game, does it not?

I consider meta to be super important. It allows you to get an insight into a persons standard play. For example, if I were to buddy you during a game, that would be scummy. HOWEVER, if I appeared to be buddying Nachomamma8 in a game, it wouldn't be because we are very familiar with each other and have known each other on site for 2 years.

And after re-reading, some of the things that Otolia said seem less townish to me.

No evidence.

Scum Motivation

This is what I call 'fake scumhunting', scum find somebody to pretend to suspect and they write down that they suspect them, however, they dont go into why they find them suspicious or use quotes to back it up. This allows scum to pretty much coast and appear as though they are contributing to the game, when they are in fact, not.

Town Motivation

Just laziness. Could indicate inexperience in creating arguments.

I don't want to bandwagon as it'll 1)cause people to accuse me of voting for a townie(if the one lynched is a townie

Why would you worry about this?

Scum

Scum would worry about this because they don't wish to draw attention to themselves by being on the bandwagon of a townie so early in the game. I'm reading the above as this option more than anything due to the way it was worded, she seems more concerned about being accused of lynching a townie than she is about actually lynching one.

Town

Town tends to worry that they are lynching town.

So, I'll take the hammer. Not like anyone looks like they'll be changing their mind soon, and I think this day has gone on long enough for a vote. Let's just hope I made the right decision.

Very interesting to note that Forest doesn't seem cautious at all here. It's almost as though she knows that the person that she's just hammered is scum.

Conclusion: I could see a potential scum flip coming from Forest.

Fixed Quote tag. ~~NS

[Twistedspoon]

forest is town in my book
but then so are you so meh...

what's your case/analysis on myself?

[Haylen]

I'm writing them out in order of the OP. You're right at the bottom of the list

[Twistedspoon]

fair enough

CC will be a good read too

[Haylen]

CaptainCuddles

Another vote hopper in the RVS. In CaptainCuddles, I find this uninteresting.

I think we can afford to be wrong once

, no matter how scummie that might sound.

So rather than attempting to scumhunt and lynch a scum member, he attempts to lynch somebody who's role he doesn't know.

BUT WAIT. Look at the bolded. There is no way that CC would know at this time that they person he wanted to lynch was a mislynch, unless he's scum himself!

Remember my sacrifice! The cop should have an easier time guessing who the mafia is right? It made sense to me :/

Despite realising that there's a chance there may not be a cop in this game, I still think it's scummy that he refused to scumhunt.

Scum

Newbie scum tend to think that they can't scumhunt, they're at a loss as to what they should be doing in a game to hide in with the town. It takes a little while for them to click that they should be "scum hunting" too. Even then, they have a difficult job of it because they need to fake scum hunt whilst trying not to lie which is quite difficult. Another thing scum also like to do to take up time is speculate about the setup, it wastes time and puts the town on a tangent along with making it look like they're doing something.

Reasons? Seems too pro and is playing the VI card like me.

Blatant hypocrisy

Scum Motivations

This is the main way in which scum tend to slip up, they accidentally accuse someone of doing something scummy that they themselves are doing because they're scum!

I don't understand why we wouldn't lynch since you guys seem to have a good lead.

This is a very strange thing to say. It's scummy because he doesn't seem to see himself as part of the town, note the words 'you guys', he accidentally let slip that he's not part of the town with those words.

If I was scum

, I would've totally jumped on my noobiness and bandwagoned when people started to change their votes to me.

This is WIFOM. He's also accidentally outted himself as scum again by saying the bolded. I seem to remember him voting for Frostbite earlier for him using the newbie card.

after he posted why he couldn't give fast enough responses, people just said "Wow. Boarding school." and skipped over him. This doesn't feel genuine to me

You find somebodies V/LA suspicious? o.o

A suggestion to everyone: never accuse somebody of lying about being V/LA, lying about being V/LA is cheating at worst, poor form at best. Don't even go there because it makes you a dick.

From what I can see, CC is really lacking any conviction in his votes or whom he want's to be lynched. This is scummy because it allows him to coast throughout the game. Scum don't often do this, but newbie scum do often find it really difficult to attempt to blend in and this is a behaviour pattern I have seen before. HANG ON, not pushing for his Frosty's lynch and yet is voting for him? Vote don't match opinions, inconsistancy.

Conclusion: At the present time, I would like a CC lynch over any of the other two players I have done analysis on.

[Haylen]

This is my new tactic, btw. I'm walling scum out into the open and making them surrender this way.

[Twistedspoon]

as a newbie expert Haylen, do you think this is newbtown or newbscum in CC?

[Haylen]

gbevilchaos

Not attempting to be your buddy - attempting to note that Lie to Me is a beast of a show, although Lightman was getting slightly unlikable during the last season.

I would expect town to reply with this level of explanation and a lack of panic. Especially if inexperienced.

You're right, that does sound scummy. Just because you acknowledge that what you're saying sounds scummy, doesn't mean it becomes alright. My joke vote is now semi-serious.

*nods*, Hayl likes this reply. Lack of panic, no pressure to be seen. Throws the vote back in CC's face and doesn't let him get away with it.

I pretty much stated my thoughts above.

No you didn't. You just said about siding with Espeon over an avatar lol.

Scum Motivation

I would have expected scum to choose a side on the bandwagons.

Town Motivation

Pretty obviously a newbie who doesn't quite get that he should be giving his opinion on the bandwagons rather than choosing sides :p

I'm not that suspicious of Twisted. He seems to be displaying appropriate logic. He only voted for me so that he could see the reactions. He found exactly what he was looking for, then took his vote off so that I wasn't lynched randomly.

Town response. Scum would be in a panic over a pressure vote and cave quite easily. Logic is acknowledged to be appropriate, understands what Twisted was doing and leaves it at that.

As for me being influenced by others arguments, that's the nature of the game. It's one big debate on who is scum. So far, the majority of arguments have been relatively good.

*nods* I like this response. It's a town one.

Town can't win a game without gathering enough info to make an educated guess on who is scum. Random guesses without even trying to find real scum from the beginning will lead to a loss every time.

Town reply.

Votes shouldn't change based only on one little post.

As paranoid as I am, I have to disagree with this based on principle. A refusal to change ones vote from the events in one post could be considered scum motivated. I have met scum who keep their vote on the same person all day and nobody said anything about it because they have stated their opinions, despite scummier things happening that they should have changed their vote to if they had been town. <-- Possible scum motivation by Gbe.

For Lord of Graves, I have definitely seen a few off things, but I plan to keep them to myself for another day or two.

Keeping things from the town.

Town Motivation

There is none.

Scum motivation

It hides thought processes and allows scum to coast by and make up reasons as they go along if they refuse to state their reasoning straight out. What I mean is, if given adequate time, someone who states somebody is suspicious with no basis can quickly draw on something from the game and fake it. It also prevents the game from moving forward which is what scum desire to do.

His suspicion in Post 30 seems legit.

He would claim vanilla townie because he knows scum would kill a power role. Only scum claim power roles because they aren't afraid of being NK'd and noob town are hesitant to lynch a claimed power role.

I repeat, never lie about your role. It leads the town into a false path of information and down the wrong road.

Having said that, if I die during Night 1, chkflip is almost definitely scum trying to stop me from posting my case.

NEVER say things like this. Horrible things can happen the next day if people take notice of it. HORRIBLE THINGS.

I will NOT support a Gbe lynch today.

[Haylen]

@ Twistedspoon - Newbie scum.

[gbevilchaos]

This is my new tactic, btw. I'm walling scum out into the open and making them surrender this way.

You're doing this for everyone in all your games? Now that's commitment.

CC's case is a tad WIFOM to me. It could be noobscum or noobtown in my opinion. I do want to note that, while his activity was very high in the first few days, it has drifted off a little towards the end of the day. This could be a scum response to the pressure he received at the beginning of Day 1. He may figure that if he doesn't talk, he can't slip up again. I still would like to see more from him before I would be willing to vote his way.

FoS CC

though.

Noragar reads more like noobtown than anything to me. Emotional seems noobtownish to me. He used more logic towards the end of Day 1 and in his response to Hayl's post against him, so I would consider it's a noob town learning how to play them game (or a smart noob scum learning, but I think that would have taken longer).

I'm reading Forest's ISO now before I respond to his case. It seems apparent that I overlooked several things from him, probably because I mistook his long and frequent posts for active scumhunting. I want to see how much helped further a case and how much was fluff.

[gbevilchaos]

My comments in red. I deleted the quotes that Haylen included where he indicated a town read, as they don't really require any response.

I pretty much stated my thoughts above.

No you didn't. You just said about siding with Espeon over an avatar lol.

Scum Motivation

I would have expected scum to choose a side on the bandwagons.

Town Motivation

Pretty obviously a newbie who doesn't quite get that he should be giving his opinion on the bandwagons rather than choosing sides :p

I thought he asked for my response on CC's putting me at L-1, which I had supplied above. I'm probably understanding the question wrong, because I believe I answered it when I said that CC's stating he was acting scummy doesn't mean he wasn't scummy.

Votes shouldn't change based only on one little post.

As paranoid as I am, I have to disagree with this based on principle. A refusal to change ones vote from the events in one post could be considered scum motivated. I have met scum who keep their vote on the same person all day and nobody said anything about it because they have stated their opinions, despite scummier things happening that they should have changed their vote to if they had been town. <-- Possible scum motivation by Gbe.

The point I was trying to convey was that we should slow down and focus on getting lots of information out of the day instead of going for a quick lynch. My post was worded just awfully.

For Lord of Graves, I have definitely seen a few off things, but I plan to keep them to myself for another day or two.

Keeping things from the town.

Town Motivation

There is none.

Scum motivation

It hides thought processes and allows scum to coast by and make up reasons as they go along if they refuse to state their reasoning straight out. What I mean is, if given adequate time, someone who states somebody is suspicious with no basis can quickly draw on something from the game and fake it. It also prevents the game from moving forward which is what scum desire to do.

His suspicion in Post 30 seems legit.

I was trying to see a strong pattern develop showing LoG was scummy instead of trying to make a weak case out of what was already there and then allowing him to change his behavior to appear more townish. I'd rather wait a day or two (real life, not in game) for the strong case than pursue one that I know won't result in a lynch. I gave my opinions in Post 30 only two real life days later when I felt I had enough info, so I made sure it was in there well before any deadline and could be used to help us make a good decision on our lynch.

In my opinion, it's the same as TS saying that someone appears scummy in a list of his reads but not posting a long and detailed case with quotes on him until later.

He would claim vanilla townie because he knows scum would kill a power role. Only scum claim power roles because they aren't afraid of being NK'd and noob town are hesitant to lynch a claimed power role.

I repeat, never lie about your role. It leads the town into a false path of information and down the wrong road.

While I have most of the game theory down, I don't understand this at all. If you're a PR, why would you admit to it? It doesn't make sense. Your lie will never be figured out because an investigation still turns you up innocent, and it keeps you safe in the long run (and the town safe because you can keep investigating/jailkeep-ing/healing). Can TS explain this a bit more? Isn't it appropriate to lie about your role if it helps the town reach their wincon in the long run?

Having said that, if I die during Night 1, chkflip is almost definitely scum trying to stop me from posting my case.

NEVER say things like this. Horrible things can happen the next day if people take notice of it. HORRIBLE THINGS.

Yeah, that was my noobiness showing. I didn't think through how that would get WIFOMy as all hell.

[gbevilchaos]

I think forest is town. There's no real posts I can post up to "prove" this. It's based on a holistic examination of all of his posts. He seems to have a hard time moving from one target to another. He isn't tunneling (he moves from TS to CC to Otolia over the course of Day 1), but it takes a lot to convince him to move from each. Even after changing his vote, he oftened stated he was still suspicious of the first person. This seems like a town read because he's hanging onto his suspicions instead of going with a popular option, like I would expect scum to do. Also, if he was scum, he hammered his partner on Day 1 when there was no one else likely to do it (the rest were inactiveish). There is little reason to hammer a scumpartner on Day 1 unless their lynch is inevitable, and I don't think it really was.