ASOIAF: Test of Faith Mafia (Game Over!)

[Bilbo Baggins]

Let's skip the RVS and go straight to a lynch.

Vote: LynchMePls

Agreed, which is why you should vote vezok. He was lynched on page 3. He never even go tto post.

Let's BEAT THE RECORD.

Page two vezok lynch gogogogoooo.

OH GOD.
WE SHOULD.

But I CANNOT pass this up:

Vote: HasCow

for the last ASOIAF game.

-Andy

p.s. For those of you who don't know, this is an Andy/Plum hydra.

[Bilbo Baggins]

Wagon hoooooooooooooooooo

vote: Lynchmepls

I hope Hascow comes in and *spreads arms wide*

OR, we could just LYNCH him and then he can post that as we kill him for great justice.

-A

[Bilbo Baggins]

I am so totally from the wrong epic fantasy series, aren't I?

SPYREEEX!!! Your rhymes make me flashback to our first ever game together.

UNVOTE:

So if you knew her vig claim was a joke, and your cc was a joke, why did you vote DGB? Especially with all these juicy scum on the LMP wagon, why not single out the one you found scummiest and vote them?

I voted DGB to get a reaction. Not that hard to understand. And I got one in spades.

No. This 'lol reactions fake counterclaim' is just

bizarre

, especially from him. Countering an obvious joke (with a vote, even) seems to have no purpose and so is questionable. Trying to turn it around and say that out of his reaction fishing was the reaction he was gunning for is manipulative and scummy and false and wrong.

But you took my joke counter-claim of your vig claim DEADLY seriously. And it clearly was a joke. I’m not a moron who out himself as Vig Page 1 to a joke claim. I would have just shot you if that was the case.

My vote is good where it is. Outsized reaction to a single vote recorded for posterity.

DGB is scum of some sort. Lynch away!

No. Questioning something weird and not finding a pro-Town reason to do the weird thing is normal. Reaction fishing goes from questionable to scummy when the behavior

doesn't make sense

and the reactions react to the unsensability of it. Calling the reaction 'outsized' is using reaction fishing to justify your own ends. And that last line is just off, especially the little cap with the exclamation point; calls for lynch with excessive faked cheerfulness?

But I'm perturbed by the same sort of thing DGB is, albeit I'm less certain of relationships, when it comes to your initial stance on the LMP wagon. There's a lot of initial animosity in Vezok's general direction - suggesting he should have been power-wagoned, and that lots of things will become clear if he's scum. There is no expression of effort in terms of actually attacking the question of whether Vezok is scum or how much of a priority that should be - I'll give this a little because Vezok hadn't actually posted. But the focus on connections which are vague enough now and dependent on something happening in the future

which MoI did not support with his vote even as he insinuated that it would be useful

is a lot of hypothetical talk and no initiative taken, nor responsibility. It might or might not be far in the future the way DGB put it - but it's putting a hinge on something

3. Lining up lynches – a classic go to “Wiki Tell” for scum to use.

Guess what's also a classic Wiki Tell for scum to use? It's the old classic 'that guy's using a Wiki Tell that scumbag!'. That's not a rebuttal.

Again you keep dodging the issue about the LMP wagon – I only think there is juicy, juicy scum there IF Vezok is scum.

And you keep dodging the issue that this connection-speculating if you're unwilling to support Vezok-death is scummy false initiative. Distracting.

Magua. Your logic is flawed re DGB's meta post-structure variations; I don't think I need to point out where. Please just focus.

Holy page explosion, Batman!

So, why, yes, seeing as there are a couple walls of text already, I am going to shamelessly jump on the SK wagon. The "I'm rusty as hell" card (like most cards) + very weird answers to questions (by the way, the rusty-card is considered one of the weird answers) isn't going to cut it. Sorry SK.

VOTE: SaintKerrigan

Ping! There's so much packed in here it's amazing. A vote can either be shameless or supported by stuff, if you want to term them like that, but this uses the shameless card to play as carefree wind-in-my-hair Townie while nervously putting in a little 'this and this seems off' to justify jumping on. Using the fact that there have been wallposts to directly justify jumping on the SK wagon when there is a

middle ground

, after all,

is

shamelessly manipulative in pretending to be the helpful Townie in not posting too much. And the apology? There's no sincerity in the decision to have posted that apology (a sincere decision doesn't require a sincere apology - I mean that it looks inorganic as a part of the post).

But if you think Maemuki is scum, and Maemuki is voting SaintKerrigan, why are you still voting SaintKerrigan?

...Magua and SaintKerrigan have something going on. This post had a: "So you're suspicious of this one, so unvote mah friend" vibe to it.

Read the posts and try again. Also, stop making connections, especially such vague ones. "Something going on" is a useful thing to say in case one of them looks like a more or less attractive target later on. And it is fake fake fake scumhunting, completely divorced from analysis of context.

Who, really was the first that performed this most heinous of acts?

Why, the person you're voting for. Which, if you believed that line for a second would sure as hell strengthened this point and make DGB AND Vezok likely scum together.

But you dont because its junk and just fists out swinging.

No. Just no.

I’m voting DGB (in serious mode) for her scumtastic reaction. You are jumping to crazy conclusions that “YOU DON’T BELIEVE YOUR THEORY BECAUSE DGB MUST BE SCUM WITH VEZOK”.

But once you realized DGB was scum for realz and people were still discussing your Vezok scum = LMP wagon choosers are more likely scum, it

is

likely you'd be thinking about it, and, sincerely holding to your prediction, considered what DGB-scum would mean about the LMP wagon vs. Vezok.

VOTE: MoI

- Plum

[Bilbo Baggins]

An Andy/Plum hydra? Yeah, I could be down with killing that too - but the Has thing sounds funnier so Bilbo can be town for a while.

Sooooo we're town for voting Cow? Making ol' NordIC gods belly-laugh?

Hobbit murderers are definitely not town.

Vote: Bilbo - He doesn't look sincere. "I must vote Has for winning a previous ASOIAF game." Doesn't make sense.

If you want me to go on bitterly raging and airing dirty laundry over HasCow's last win I'd be more than happy to- but since most of the people here have probably heard about it (SK an exception, and you too apparently) then I won't.

Explanation (ooba, if spoiler= tags aren't allowed feel free to smite them:

Spoiler:

Basically in the last ASOIAF game HasCow DayVig'd a Stark-Scum D1 and was insta-townified. However he had a post restriction that he never clearly defined and broke on multiple occasions. Despite my screaming that he was 100% irrevocably scum for faking the post restriction (having broken it) and lurked- IT IS ALWAYS POSSIBLE TO PLAY LIKE A TOWN GOD WITH A POST RESTRICTION. PR =/= YOu CANNOT PLAY OR HAVE READS OR SUSPECT PEOPLE. HasCow made it to Endgame against two townies and sat there without a slight read on either of them. He won, of course, and its famous because no one besides DGB and I ever called him out for faking the PR.

So yes. Its a sore subject and definitely a Cassandra Win for me.
So to call me insincere for that vote is, to be frank, bollocks.

Magua: Funny, because I find there much dignity behind dying N1. Though if he isn't dead by D3 in a ASOIAF game he's guaranteed scum, sooo.

Magna:

Hinduragi can't be cult because they can't recruit until N2, as per the rules.

I suddenly see what you're saying. What if they started out with more than one member?

1.There is a cult in this game.
2.The cult will be able to recruit from N2 onwards.

But Magna, you're basically saying that if vezok flips scum then the other scumbags are hiding out on the LMP wagon- so if vezok does flip scum (and I can see you bussing her D1

daykilling her D1

) then you're perfectly setting up mislynches down the line by saying the scum are hiding in the competing, larger, LMP wagon.
This of course, doesn't necessitate LMP_town if vezok_scum, but y'know.

IIRC SK was the one who started the LMP wagon, yes?
Yes, yes he did. So you're fine with a RVS vote but not the pressure?

If Vezok flipped scum, I'd actually look at you as a likely buddy for trying to tie random voters to him.

Pretty much this.
Also, defense of SK noted.

I'm good at SIRIUS BIZNISS, DGB.

Basically, Magna's the strongest scumread at the moment. *Insert MoI vote here, but Plum already got to it so we're all good*
DGB is awesome. I love DGB_town second only to DGB_Mason. <3

A real vig doesn't counterclaim, a real vig shoots the fakeclaimant in the dark.

We should've shot hito, DGB. That would have been sweeter than sugah.

3. Lining up lynches – a classic go to “Wiki Tell” for scum to use.

Yet I find it to be a scumtell.

I find the whoe vig-vig claim-counterclaim thing funny mainly because the last time I was vig I was DGB's right hand. lol

DGB is scum of some sort.

Remind me to get back to this sometime. The line, that is.
I'm not sure how to read it and might need to do some research.

You guys are going to try my brain talking mafia theory. I'm sorry, but if you're going to talk Fonzian scumtells and theory-land I'm going to take 5 and be back later.
Though HasCow's point on Empking is rather interesting. Might do some digging in regards to Empking scumplay.

Ergo, DGB posting coherent thoughtful posts that I agree with is a scumtell.

I don't like your line of thinking, just because it takes responsiblity away from you. Like "oh DGB-meta this, DGB-meta not that, therefore DGB scum" so you're not really involved at all. Idk, that vote just reads scummy for miles.

#61 is such an amazing post.

Soooo what do you see as amazing? The case? Because you're not voting DGB. Is DGB scum, Faraday?

Don't know what to think about Maemuki. I don't like her posting and agree with AGM its scummy but I gut read her town. Not just from meta, but. Also, I think late-entry scum would actually promise more content/reading later. Mae just entered and did her thing. Its the little things.

MoI is not a good day 1 lynch,

even if you think he's scum.

Run this by me one more time. How does a scumlynch =/= a good lynch?
(Boldface mine.)

YESSS. PLUM VOTED MAGNA. <3 We rock.

Considering I'm a POWERFUL WIZARD well I'll get on my broom and fly there.

Do dead POWERFUL WIZARDS get brooms?

Let's settle for a simple, MoI is not a good Day 1 lynch, and we can debate the rest tomorrow.

This is not sufficient.

-A

I should get back to you with stuff I want to look at later, with some QT-first reads as well.

[Bilbo Baggins]

Okay, well at least you went into my answer a bit later, so I won't mock you totally on this one. But, seriously, there are a handful of players I just really don't consider solid Day 1 lynch options. If he's scum, look for a buddy and let's lynch the buddy. If he's alive Day 2 I'll be willing to start considering him. At the moment he is doing...well, his usual hyper logic with a few leaps I think are silly, but which overall looks like scumhunting, and I'd rather donk him around and make him explain some of the odd logic than run a serious wagon on him in any way, shape, or form. If you want to run a "lol, bad logic" wagon let's at least run up vezo or DGB or something because at least i could probably accept that as a good idea. This isn't.

No. No no and no. If MoI is under heavy suspicion, and he is right now, we

especially

cannot buy into the hope that if we're wrong about him he'll end up dead by Day 2. Making assumptions about who's scum and trying to find buddies based off that Day 1 is a shot in the dark - seriously I would doubt that it's better than random, because without flips making connections is completely counterproductive, can be manipulated too much by scum in the mix to count on as stable ground for scumhunting, and worst of all can be used to manipulate and confuse scumhunting and lynch options into the rest of the game. It is not the cornerstone on which to base your Day 1 lynch. It is a bad idea. If you have one strong scum suspect on Day 1, you lynch him. You do not search around and hope to find his buddy and lynch the buddy instead and leave the one who garnered the suspicion alive on the assumption that he may be Town. If the suspect is lynched and does flip Town, there's information to be gleaned from Day 1. If a hypothetical buddy is lynched Day 1, we might be right back where we started Day 2 with the original suspect and have muddied and highly manipulable and downright useless Day 1 information.

Day 1 is partly about setting up information states for the rest of the game. Not going after the best suspects, whether or not the suspect is considered a strong suspect or not, is laying the foundation on quicksand

because

it treats the game as though we have more and stabler information than we actually do.

That's so horribad I just CANNOT. Okay.

If you don't suspect MoI, fine. But if any player here strongly suspects MoI, Thor's approach is

not

optimal.

A bit more later; I need to go.

[Bilbo Baggins]

EBWOP:

- Plum

[Bilbo Baggins]

...but you're being overly difficult[...].
You also seem to be taking little snipes at people. It's like you're trying to be annoying.

That would be the dumbest, most counterproductive scum strategy EVA, don't you think?

Not if you can use it to provoke players and then say 'oh you fakeraged last time as scum, haha you scumbag'. Because LB has been a bit too deliberate about inciting specific reactions he can use against LMP. I very very much mistrust it.

- Plum

Real full response to this whole chunk of thread to follow.

[Bilbo Baggins]

What do you think about AlmasterGM?

I think AGM is town.

Okay, well at least you went into my answer a bit later, so I won't mock you totally on this one. But, seriously, there are a handful of players I just really don't consider solid Day 1 lynch options. If he's scum, look for a buddy and let's lynch the buddy. If he's alive Day 2 I'll be willing to start considering him. At the moment he is doing...well, his usual hyper logic with a few leaps I think are silly, but which overall looks like scumhunting, and I'd rather donk him around and make him explain some of the odd logic than run a serious wagon on him in any way, shape, or form. If you want to run a "lol, bad logic" wagon let's at least run up vezo or DGB or something because at least i could probably accept that as a good idea. This isn't.

So, let me get this straight.
1) You think he's scum.
2) You don't want to lynch scum_Magna.
3) You think that keeping him around will help us find his buddies?
4) The Magna lynch is bad logic.

Because I fail to see how a scumlynch is not a desireable lynch D1. What kinda' Norse weed you smoking?

I actually like Maemuki as scum better than MoI at this point.

Why, for Mae's one bad vote in his only post? Surely we can do better.
OH WAIT.
MAGNA_SCUM.
SERIOUSLY, SET.
REVOTE.

Making assumptions about who's scum and trying to find buddies based off that Day 1 is a shot in the dark

This.

THOR: Magna will just bus/distance do whatever he can to confuse the shit out of us after we label him obvscum and tomorrow's lynch.
Something I attempted to do in SAIII after being outed as scum- buddy/do whatever I could to murk up the waters. Failed miserably though.

Yeah, but non eof you dill donkeys suspect him yet

We do. Set and Spy do. Votecounts are for reading, Thor.

Check out the people in bold. Notice the correlation - they are all sketchy people, and they are all avoiding the top two wagons. Why is this?

Because Magua is the CR and trying to stay under the radar?

I'm sure this isn't Blackest Night.

GTFO

Tootown4lynch is not a default state - especially with the conditional "ohh TOMORROW would be fine".

Still confused as to how lynching scum_Magna today is not optimal play.

I honestly do not remember you being so dense in any of the other games I've seen you in.

*cough* He's playing dumb and thick because he's CR. *cough*

Do you mind pointing this out to a blind cow who has no idea what you're seeing?

So now you're blind too?

What do YOU think of Lost Butterfly, Magna, and Magua?

Also: If you think I'm scummy, or my posts are scummy, vote for me.

Or explode. One of the two.

No.

But, this is definitely scum talking. The whole forced "either vote for me or stop talking about me" thing. I can call you scum just fine without the vote. And you should like being under the magnifying glass, no?

Definitely CR talking, AGM. Look at him in ISO. His weaksauce play. He's not doing much of anything.
For example:

'Can you get on with dayvigging scum so I can get on with sheeping you?'

This is not good town behaviour. Hell, we weren't even voting with him, and he's still voting DGB for loljoke reasons and getting away with it? AGM you're calling him scummy alot and who are you voting? Kerrigan?

All I'm saying is he's a good enough player that he's not worth lynching on this weak as sin wagon you guys are cobbling together.

So apparently being "good" at this mafia thing is enough to spare you from a lynch? Good to know.
OH WAIT.
That's shit reasoning, sorry Thor.
OH WAIT. I'm not sorry.

".

And... if this wagon is weak as sin and made from nothing why in the name of everything holy would it be open to debate tomorrow?

To: Thor
From: Spy and Andy

The only think I agree with from vezok is that AGM is town.

Faraday is scum attempting to set off LMP. I'll let Plum frost this cake since its already baked in-QT but Faraday is one burnt cupcake in the batch.

Page 9 is scum_faraday pushing town_LMP and aggravating him for the ends. Again, Plum'll frost this one.

The last page or two reinforces why I'm happy with an LB vote. Absolutely ludicrous behavior(from both involved, but instigated by LB)

This. Faraday is clearly egging LMP on into a downward spiral. Also, since Faraday hates bussing as scum, him and Magna fit perfectly together. CLEARLY attempting to divert from a leading wagon.
Also, what do you think the chances are of Faraday/Magna buddies?

Nexus, Locke: Would either of you be willing to shift away from LMP onto, say, Faraday or Magna?

Setael, please consider moving your vote onto Magna again. Also, what do you think of Faraday?

Honestly I'm not even concerned with vezok. Magna is still scum whether vezok is a buddy or not.


Magna votehops to LMP after saying DGB-wagon isn't going anywhere (Hint: DGB = town) and he's going to sheep onto LMP.

Faraday: Do you think LMP is scum? If so, why SK over LMP?
Also, what do you think of Magua?

If you think you see me calling Hind (or anyone) Cult then you aren’t seeing it correctly. I’ll respond if you wish to elaborate on what you think you see.

I saw it.

Now, tell me who the cult recruiter is.

You obviously.

Yes I saw it.
Yes you said it.

ABSOLUTE CRAP OF THE HIGHEST ORDER. FUCKING BULLSHIT THAT I WILL NOT FUCKING STAND FOR!!

ELABORATE MOTEHRFUCKER! SAY WHAT YOU MEAN.

I WANT TO SEE WHAT BULLSHIT YOU ARE COMING UP WITH BASED ON MY ACTIVITY HISTORY.

NEXT FUCKING POST!!!

*facepalm*

Magua is addressing AGM again. Seems like that's the only thing he's doing at the moment.

- I still like my LB vote.
- Maemuki and MoI are still on my list.

Drop Mae and you're golden.

MoI's post is one giant outrage at being caught for the wrong reasons.

Concur.

hasdgfas: what does 'off' mean and off compared to where?? what games of mine are you referring to. we've never played together and you've modded me in one game. what games of mine have you read? you can feel free to keep waiting for mina, i'm sure she'll be much more pleasant but for the moment i'm posting and your case on me amounts to using rhetoric (which makes me think you don't have meta on me), me being difficult (once again, makes me think that your calling me 'off' is wrong) and...I don't remember the other point? sheeping? w/e.

hey hasdgfas and saintkerrigan, what do you think of LMP's 199 and then his #212 how well do they work together for you?

Quick Faraday, meta defend more. Don't bother explaining your actions.
Also, quickly shove LMP in our faces.
He's town.
You're not.
End of story.

...but you're being overly difficult[...].
You also seem to be taking little snipes at people. It's like you're trying to be annoying.

That would be the dumbest, most counterproductive scum strategy EVA, don't you think?

Unless that's what he WANTS you to think!

This, obviously.

Also, just for the SkypeMafia crowd (you know what I'm doing):

Vote: MagnaofIllusion.

Yes. Magna is scum. As are Faraday and Magua.

FTFY

Vote Count

LynchMePls (3)

- Nexus, Locke Lamora, MagnaofIllusion

MagnaofIllusion (6)

- DrippingGoofball, LynchMePls, Hinduragi, SpyreX, Kast, Bilbo Baggins

SaintKerrigan (6)

- Empking, Lost Butterfly, AlmasterGM, vezokpiraka, Benmage, Maemuki

Lost Butterfly (2)

- hasdgfas, SaintKerrigan

Maemuki (3)

- Setael, Magua, Thor665

Not Voting (0)

-

Nil

With 20 alive, it takes 11 to lynch!

Ok, something Plum wanted done:
Look at our amazing townbloc on Magna.
Then look at the other wagons.
Yeeaaahhhhhh.
Vote Magna please.

(Probably wasn't quite what you wanted there Plum so I'll let you fix it/whatever when you get time. <3)

Magna is attacking LMP with lots of words and walls and "prettifying".
Faraday is being deliberately provocative towards LMP.
Magua is CR.

-A

[Bilbo Baggins]

@Andy: Whether scum or town, in the games I've played with Faraday he was for the most part charming and light hearted and I don't recall him ever antagonizing a specific player, or allowing another player to get to him. I don't know what to make of his play here. Do you have meta reasons to see this as more scum Faraday than town Faraday?

Exactly. He's not normally this antagonizing. And LMP isn't the one provoking Faraday. Faraday is clearly provoking LMP into... how did Plum put it? If Faraday can get LMP to rage then he can counter that as fakerage, like he did the last game as scum. I don't have much Faraday meta I can speak of besides SkypeMafia, and that isn't exactly the same thing.

I'm confident MoI is scum.

Magua is a CR read for me. He doesn't stand out as buddies with anyone mainly since he isn't really attacking/defending anyone in particular like Faraday is.

Though now that I'm here, I'll add that I'm not reading Andrius' wallpost either.

Its not that bad. I see you posting, and now I'm hatin'. Seriously, if you could try that'd be great.

I'm going to ignore Andy's post, because since they're wrong about me they're probably wrong about everything else.

Not even an 'A' for effort.
Seriously, Set, do you SEE this?

Oh wow, Andy asked if I think LMP is scum. Jeez that's an alignment piercing question and a half! It's almost like reading the thread you'd be unable to tell what I think.

Yet you did actually read it. Why am I not surprised?
I want a straight yes/no from you.
Solid read. Also, you

are

voting Kerrigan over LMP.

Faraday I'm convinced MoI is scum. And I see connections so I brought them up in-QT. And then I posted them here. Nitpicky much?

I'm *really* curious as to why the 'cult recruiter' isn't the person Bilbo Baggins is voting too.

Magna is confirmed scum in my mind. Confirmed is more deserving of a vote than highly suspect is.
I think Thor can agree with me that we'll come back to Magua D2, yes?

Guys, let's all compromise and lynch Magua.

Unvote, Vote: Magua

What do you think of Magna and Faraday?

I'd also say that he's more likely to be the CR which I presume is the biggest threat.

Except he can't recruit until N2- read the rules.

1 - I have never said I thought MoI was scum. I haven't said I thought he was town either - his wagon looks weak enough I would predict town, frankly. I certainly don't think he's scum and am sticking my neck out this far for him.
2 - If I 100% knew he was scum I would lynch him. Other than that this is an awkward question laced with your bias which has no proof.
3. If he is scum, yes, I think him being alive longer will give us more information on his buddies - that's how it is with anyone.
4. Yes.

I'm just trying to understand the logic in the universe where lynching scumreads D1 is not a good move.
1) I can accept that you don't think he's scum. But the issue isn't really whether you think he's scum or not; the issue is that you're against lynching scum D1.
3) I can agree with that, but again- lynching scum > lynching town.

And its not 50:50.

So are Spy's posts when he's mocking me not agreeing with me

And you mock him for his style.
Who are your top scumreads, Thor?

People legitimately advance the idea of policy lynches Day 1, because "bad" players must be removed Day 1, and regardless of their alignment because overall it will help the game.

I follow this.

I'm advocating a policy...no lynch? Whatever - it's the mirror reflection of the idea. There are certain players it's better to let simmer for at least a night because it is more likely to help town by them being around.

Erm, not the same thing. If someone is scummy you lynch them. The logic does not hold in the reverse- we lynched vezok D1 in I'm-not-talking-about-that-game because there was a larger benefit for the town powers-to-be by quick-lynching. Yes, the person we chose was based on policy lynching. But there were other reasons behind it. Not lynching a scumread is lunacy.

I'm also a little worried about Thor, but that can wait until Day 2,

I just found this ironic.

Hey, Magua I know you didn't read Andrius' post and I don't blame you, but what do you think of the fact they think you're the cult leader and don't vote you? Does it make you curious too?

Answered this up there.

Waiting on Plum's thoughts for a couple other things.

-A


predit:

Andy: unvote vote: MoI Happy?

I take it you're not voting MoI solely because I asked you to?

[Bilbo Baggins]

Vote Count

LynchMePls (2)

- Locke Lamora, MagnaofIllusion

MagnaofIllusion (9)

- DrippingGoofball, LynchMePls, Hinduragi, SpyreX, Kast, Bilbo Baggins, vezokpiraka, hasdgfas, Nexus

SaintKerrigan (3)

- Lost Butterfly, Benmage, Maemuki

Lost Butterfly (1)

- SaintKerrigan

Maemuki (2)

- Magua, Thor665

Magua (3)

- Setael, AlmasterGM, Empking

Not Voting (0)

-

Nil

With 20 alive, it takes 11 to lynch!

Updated for relevancy.

[Bilbo Baggins]

EBWOP:

-A

[Bilbo Baggins]

I don't trust us having another chance to kill Magua.

Its called Day Two, Empking.
The day that follows the scum-lynch.
Then we lynch Magua_CR before he gets to recruit.
Then we go back to lynching scum.
Badda-bing badda-boom, town win.

-A

[Bilbo Baggins]

So Faraday why can't you simply say "LMP is scum"?
I

won't

will Lie Detector you on it, so make it flashy.

-A

p.s. You think he's scum. Cool story bro. Hell, while you're at it, why don't you say the following: "I am aligned with the town". Take heart and have faith. The faithful have nothing to fear- certainly not an inquiry for heretics.

[Bilbo Baggins]

So Faraday why can't you simply say "LMP is scum"?
I

won't

will Lie Detector you on it, so make it flashy.

-A

p.s. You think he's scum. Cool story bro. Hell, while you're at it, why don't you say the following: "I am aligned with the town". Take heart and have faith. The faithful have nothing to fear- certainly not an inquiry for heretics.

I'll do it on the next page, maybe.

P.s. you should really think why you're first paragraph doesn't make any sense.

I was trying to stress the fact that you seem oddly hesitant to name your scumread, instead being dodgy and avoiding a simple question.
(Yes of course I see what's wrong. That's not the point though.)
Why the next page? Why not this page?

Are you just trying to be a prick?

-A

[Bilbo Baggins]

EBWOP: lol So this is now the "next page" we talked of.

-A

[Bilbo Baggins]

No, but all I asked for was a quick answer and that you denied me.
Hmmm...... Faraday, what do you think of SpyreX?

-A

predit:

So why not lynch him today?

He can't recruit tonight, therein not the biggest threat. Therefore, mafia is biggest threat.

[Bilbo Baggins]

I'm gettin a little paranoid about something:

Is this just a general assumption about non-cult scum being in this game or am I bad at reading OP again?

And I'll guarantee from what I remember reading (cult no recruit until N2, pre-knowledge of a cult in this game) that this isn't a simple "cult leader" dancing party. Its probably more zombie-esque with multiple leaders at the beginning or some method to make sure D1-awesome lynch != GG.

Spy, a mafia faction has pretty much been confirmed by the flavor and OP.
I don't think there are multiple cult-leaders though. I think the delayed start is to prevent the cult from destroying too early in the game. An extra night = an extra cultist so it might have been a balance thing, you know?

Like in Succession Mafia I, the game was a night-start. Granted, none of the Cult Recruiters could have been investigated/killed N0, but it gave the cops (aka, me) an extra head-start on recruits.

Somehow Benmage's 1minute discrepancy between voting and then a "oh whoops he's L-1" doesn't read sincere. Not scummy, just not sincere. Though not reading is a problem.

So, yeah. Bilbo calling me the cult recruiter and not voting me is very odd. His follow up defense ("lynch him D2") isn't the place where warm fuzzies go. However, I'm not seeing the scum motivation for saying it either, from either a scum or cult mindset. So I've tossed it into the "weird but not actionable" bucket.

If you want warm fuzzies I suggest a teddy bear. Lynching isn't a warm-and-fuzzy business.

It's not odd at all and the explanation makes perfect sense. The mod explicitly said cult cannot recruit until N2.

Exactly- the deadliest part of the cult is recruition, and since he can't do it tonight we might as well lynch a scumread (Read: Magna) over a CR read that is neutered until N2.

Thor

I want to be on the record for being against this lynch,

Ok, but why is this so important?

Nope. Not moving my vote. Esp. not to Maemuki. If Magna were to suddenly roll over and die *coughcoughHasCowdosomething* I'd move right on to Faraday.

Let's pretend i was really good at the game of Mafia (you'll have to work with me on this example )

Not too hard to do.

If you think I'm "scummy" you conclude that it's definitely not worth keeping me around to see my reads on Day 2? Even if you want to lynch me Day 2, and I flip town, I'll have served town better. Yeah, if I'm scum you bought me a day - consider it a 1:1 trade or something. I don't feel this is an off the wall concept I'm shopping here. Why don't you try to explain, strategically, why I'm wrong instead of just going "THOR DOESN"T WANT TO LYNCH SCUM!" Because...that's either not an argument and/or is strawman enough that it's not valid to sell me on anything.

10% isn't alot, first of all. Your reads D2 are going to be the same as the end of D1 minus a couple dead people (most likely)

"THOR DOESN"T WANT TO LYNCH SCUM!"

I had trouble getting to the "thor doesn't think MoI is scum" bit.

Yeah, if I'm scum you bought me a day - consider it a 1:1 trade or something.

Not really seeing this either. We get a mislynch, and a nightkill, on top of whatever PR you might have been. So its not a 1:1.

Magna, claim please. I'm sorry, but the tail end of this post just reads "try and look contrite".

-A

[Bilbo Baggins]

Good lord.

Nexus is town.
MoI is stalling.
Of that myriad of hopping votes SK's needs a bullet.

QFFT

More later, just wanted to support this.

[Bilbo Baggins]

Oh game. You have gotten so very special since our last official rendezvous. This post is mostly old stuff which I'm trying to squeeze the relevant out of for our purposes. Hopefully all of the bits I did yesterday before I got off the computer got tied off.

Right, here's the general thing with

Magua

: He is playing weaksauce, and not in a way that makes me think he had a wonky couple of days. What was initially weak and odd about his play did not seem incidental.

When LMP was at L-3 on page 1, Magua posted this:

VOTE: MagnaofIllusion

I want to save him the indignity of dying N1.

This is a complete sidestepping of the issue at hand; I don't need Magua to vote LMP, but issue-full-of-tension-is-here-I-just-be-cool-and-ignoring-it-and-let-something-else-spark-it is here. Right here. The DGB vote could be written off as herp-derp let's-spark-wagonalysis-for-fun-and-profit - but pardon me if I'm not sure I can read it this way; it looks like it was designed to mess around and get written off; it looks ill designed to do what he claims he was fishing for and useful, such that Magua could play it either way depending on how things started to flow. Furthermore

I don't like your line of thinking, just because it takes responsiblity away from you. Like "oh DGB-meta this, DGB-meta not that, therefore DGB scum" so you're not really involved at all. Idk, that vote just reads scummy for miles.

The One Ring has decimated your sense of humor, I see.

Can you get on with dayvigging scum so I can get on with sheeping you?

What do you think about AlmasterGM?

This would read all nice and take-a-chill-pill-Andy-we-are-cool-are-we-not. If it made any sense whatsoever. If I'm not accused of being humorless, it might make sense if, for instance, Magua were voting with us or even agreeing with us on some game point as opposed to still voting DGB for make-joke-ohwait-make-wagonalysis reasons.

Almaster, if you think I'm scum, you should vote me.

I'm not going to vote for SK. I don't care if her next post in the thread is "LULZ GAIZ IM THE GODFATHER." Why am I not going to vote for her? Because I *can*.

I might vote for MagnaofIllusion. My first vote on him was pure RVS, but I haven't liked what I've read. So that's 2/2 I'm batting on doing scummy things you don't like.

Then again: You think MagnaofIllusion is town. MagnaofIllusion thinks DGB is scum. (I happen to agree, self interest and all here.) Do you think Magna is wrong? Misinformed?

When Spy and AGM and the others who did reacted to this post, they were right

in spades

. This post reflects oh so much of Magua's play throughout the game, and is especially similar to the DGB vote. It is messing around with a little tee-hee; it is using that MO to sidestep doing useful things on the scumhunting/lynching continuum.

Pedit: Magua, I'd like to hear what your meta is playstyle-wise.

Self metas suck and cannot be trusted. But, to answer your question: To play stupider than the last time someone played with me.

If so this is the first time I've seen you play to this professed meta.

A lot of this, especially the early stuff, had the ring of CR-type scum in that I would expect a CR role, in the early game, to have some decent presence in the game but not take the spotlight nor look obvTown. Magua's play is anomolously weird, useless, and scummy for him; he has, however, gotten more attention as the game's gone on; I'm not sure what this means. But Magua can and has played (including third-party) with relative finesse.

Here's the thing with

Thor

: He is MOONBEAMS on top of marshmallow fluff. His extensive insistence that there literally was no case on MoI is counter-reality, and the amount of rhetoric spent on there-is-no-case-for-realz/this-is-a-mislynch/MoI-might-be-Town-and-because-of-that-we-should-keep-him-alive was all done with a fierce and deliberate intent beyond the general scope of Townie-disagrees-with-a-case-and-wagon-on-another-guy. I ought to lay off the hyphens for a few sentences, but the point stands. This stands in fairly stark contrast to AGM, where the argument against an MoI lynch despite MoI suspicions, which he does not try to discard as completely without legitimate backing, because other people acting suspicious around him and other wagons will be able to slip under the radar (much more intuitive-to-Town, useful, and true than MoI-will-be-such-a-major-asset-as-Town-tomorrow).

In terms of

Faraday

, he is

not

above emotionally manipulating people he suspects into frustration and frustration-caused mistakes in judgment. If he judges himself in a position of power, he may act like a bit of a jerk and use the rise he gets out of his target to manipulate opinion against the target (a basic rhetoric function) and to manipulate the target. Most attention he has drawn this game has been in the direction of people he's attacking; in the current meta this is certainly not default negative attention drawn, and it remains unclear whether it will pan out as attention a scumbag wouldn't want drawn to himself - but post like this make me worried that it is calculated. But drawing out things he can put down as lolflailscum or you fakerage scum you seems deliberate, much too much so for my taste, especially post Mafia MetaMafia (by the way, Faraday, I've forgiven you for messing with me that game because you were scum . . . <3 . . . er).

About

Maemuki

:

Whoa, amazing how I managed to gather 3 votes with...yeah, one post. I have a gift for this. Anyway, the only thing I find defendable in the cases of the people who voted for me is this: ...uh, nope, can't find a thing other than "obv scum is scum". Amazing.

However, I can't help but notice that everybody has me on their scumlist somewhere. While this is not scummy for the most part, it is when people ignore the rest of the game. So, Magua. What's your opinion on the top 2 wagons?

About the MoI/LB argument, quite frankly...it sucks. Maybe I'm being tainted by my "hate-meta-with-a-passion", but logic dictates MoI should be scummy, yet my gut says that he isn't. I mean, the LMP vote is dodgy for being (self-admitted) sheeping (*cue the cries of hypocrisy*) and for sounding like a pretty poor excuse for an OMGUS, but overall my gut says town.

And I never won a game with logic, so screw that and put him on my most-likely-town list.

Locke Lamora's vote also sounds hella sketchy, mostly because he's arguing a way of phrasing something, not the actual argument.

As for my current vote, SK? Sorry, but even with that post, you're still my main suspect. Why? Well...to be completely fair, you do bring a couple of points I agree on, like LL. And I'm not as sure. I don't know...I don't find anything overly scummy about it, nor overly townie. It's just a post.

I'd like to have something a bit more in-depth for my first real post, but my back says I cannot. I don't promise anything, but I'll probrably have something better before Sunday.

1. Didn't respond to my dissection, which had a fair amount of explaining - just excuses it as no one has a case meh.
2. Complains that everyone has her down as scum, hastily adds that that's just fine with her. Then turns around on the offensive with Magua.
3. Logic says MoI is scum, gut says he isn't, I mean obviously all this stuff is scummy - but I'm not getting on that wagon! I hereby tip my hat at the wagon, pay lip service to the people pushing it, and excuse myself and get as far away as I can.
4. Blah blah blah.
5. I'm still voting SK, with another forced apology, because even though there was some good stuff in that last post, it wasn't scummy. It was just null. So my opinion evolves not a whit, but I'll pay lip service to the fact that you posted and use that to rejustify my vote.

Spoiler for the next post: However Espeonage is actually looking damned Townish himself.

[Bilbo Baggins]

I actually had not noticed that SK used a smiley like that this game; SK is exponentially scummier now. Yes, just for that, using a smiley face to punctuate the fake-joyful comment on his wagon (her? dammit, SK

is

a guy, right?). The fake making light is touched by the I-am-real-making-light-as-well-as-sarcasm-here of the emoticon. SK is feigning relative nonchalance regarding the wagon on him, even if he is indicating mild irritation at it. And it is scummy. It is oh so pretty damned scummy.

I am completely unimpressed by Thor's reaction. There is probably a nice macro here that could show my feelings, but in any case. It's all good and well that MoI was a mislynch and that Thor was right. It's not all good and well that what I remember of Thor yesterday was argument after extreme argument that MoI was a mislynch and nothing else. No really, the scumhunting, such as there was, left no impression. The ability to argue for a lynch other than MoI's that would succeed, if there was any . . . nope. Thor was way too passive for this sort of gloating. There was five times the space devoted to debating the debate, at least, than to trying to hunt up good alternatives OR voting/cajoling for better, alternative wagons. Also, I want clarification on something I stumbled across in Thor's ISO:

Let's clarify to 'rather not lynch in this weak way' a bit, but - yes - there are other players in general on the site and specifically in this game I'd rather not see dead on Day 1 because I think it hurts town's chances. It's awkward to say, but basically the list as it specifically goes to this game is you, MoI, cow, and Lost Butterfly. Yes, I am well aware of where my vote is.

So, why was LB such a worthwhile Day 1 vote here?

You'll especially like a claim from me.

Can't think of any town motivation to say this when you have only a few votes.

vote: Benmage

Think harder (/think like you have a different thoughtprocess)? I dunno, man.

AGM, now that MoI has flipped Town, damned if I don't want to love your wagon-tipping-analysis to pieces - partly because it's coinciding so well with my current suspects, but yeah, confidence factor on that gets a boost from both ends. Self-reinforcing loop of confirmation bias might start happening here with me, but.

Unvote: Nexus.
Vote: hascow

#500 was terribad.

O RLY. How so?

Furthermore Magua manages to argue against AGM as if he hadn't answered the 'why me over SK today' question already. Which he quite clearly had. Then made AGM out into the bad guy for that.
Damned if Espeonage's post doesn't look fairly sincere.

LMP quotes AGM from a few pages back and it just occurred to me. LMP's explosion at the end of the page before is actually screaming of a distressed town. Keeping this in mind. Could also be a scum who has just realised they need to go into damage control.

Scratch the first point. It's the second.

Hrm? You note right after this something that you say is Townish of him - and anyway I've gotten confused in this post. What's the mindset behind LMP's explosion? Clarify.

Why is it scummy? Why can't town players exhibit "scummy" behavior?

Oh this is bloody rich, this.

But Thor and SK, they are not going to be playing the What's Town is Scum and What's Scum is Town game. Not over Benmage with Thor, either; going down the Benmage-isn't-obvTown-let's-argue-this point route when it comes to his Benmage vote, after the whole MoI-case-is-nonexistent-&c. thing. But when Espe says Ben is a bad vote, and Thor argues against that.

VOTE: Thor

[Bilbo Baggins]

@Bilbo: I'm having a bit of trouble following much of what you're saying. It seems a bit...flowery. Could you do some sort of summary? Preferably without the quote striping?

- Mae was very scum-mindset and looked bad but Espe looks pretty Town as replacement for the slot, and arguments against SK and Thor are solid.
- Magua's play looks all too deliberately herp derp; he avoids certain things like acknowledging the LMP super RVS wagon at its height (when he merely voted unconnected MoI for unconnected RVS reasons); he says things which make only vague sense in context, earning a presence but using the make-joke style to be playing properly only when he chooses.
- I'm not sure that Faraday is innocent in his irritation of LMP and so forth; it looks deliberate and is not earning him the sort of negative attention some people have claimed it has.
- Thor . . . there's a little recap at the bottom of the next paragraph, but I can come back to it again if you need.

@Thor - Regarding LB, possibly fair enough (though one wonders how effective the pressure would be when Mina is not only hydra'd with Faraday but also after you said outright that you generally would not consider LB an advantageous Day 1 lynch among the players in this game). Regarding the Benmage thing: I'm having a bit of trouble articulating it, but it seems to me out of balance the way you argued that MoI was super-advantageous not to lynch Day 1 because he was so not doing scum things and why couldn't people see that it was stupid vs. the way you reacted when Espe said that your votes were bad because Ben was obvtown and you argued it. You dismissed - in no uncertain terms, in fact, you argued that there literally was no MoI case and you would not concede that believing otherwise was believable. Yet when Espe comes and argues that your vote was stupid because Ben is obviously Town, you take offense. My point is less about whether or not Ben is obviously Town (though frankly I haven't found him scummy this game, so) and more a support/redoubling note about your attitude towards such things as the MoI wagon and lynch, and that your stance was unsustainable, but not only that: it was weird and generally counterintuitive. Furthermore, and more importantly, arguing against the MoI wagon being sensical was most all of what I can remember you doing Day 1 - and I do not recall nor can I identify any effective or serious attempts to use scumhunting and wagon-driving against the MoI wagon. Which is not at all what a Townie who sincerely believed the thing would be such a bad lynch would do, as far as I can see.

@ Bilbo: I'm voting the cow because he had a scummylicious reasoning for voting Empking, and I think he knows better than that to be playing stupid. Also, your ridiculous "smiley tell" earns you a, well, hrm

Bilbo.

I love you.

Now come over here and vote for either SaintKerrigan or Magua.

Yeah.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: SK

We'll see about Thor, buuuuuut yeah. Keep it coming.

Unvote: hasdgfas
Vote: Bilbo Baggins

, because I really cannot excuse that bull.

Eat rope, my friend. Not only is the smiley tell a pretty solid one, but you dismiss it despite the fact that I firmly and clearly explained the psychology behind considering it scummy. Strawman my argument?

[Bilbo Baggins]

@Thor - Regarding LB, possibly fair enough (though one wonders how effective the pressure would be when Mina is not only hydra'd with Faraday but also after you said outright that you generally would not consider LB an advantageous Day 1 lynch among the players in this game).

You'll note when I made that list I noted the oddity of my vote - I basically had a decision to make as far as answering the question or continuing the angle effectively. If you're going to call me on something please look at the whole picture.

I

know

you noted the oddity. I still wanted an

explanation

of the oddity. The explanation was noted as fair enough and the rest was musing. It is not something I see as a substantial factor in my case or opinion on you as it is.

Finally - please explain how disagreeing with a wagon, means I have to automatically disagree with anyone who disagrees with a wagon I start. That doesn't actually make any sense. Also, my big disagreement with Espeo was asking for opinions on his case, pretty blatantly reading the game he linked, and explaining why I still didn't see it as applicable evidence.

Your issue with the MoI wagon was played as 'No one suspects him for realz/all of the cases I've seen have been so utterly worthless there is no real suspicion on him', at least initially. Espe is playing your votes as 'these are obviously bad votes [Ben is obvTown]'. The smilarity of mindset compared to the way you value each approach was interesting, felt off and a bit scummy. The initial similarities here were an interesting and perhaps slightly enlightening counterpoint regarding you - that said, as a counterpoint it's bound up in my general opinion of your Day 1 play, which, as I've discussed, was pretty scummy as it was.

Regarding Ben, yeah. Neutral leaning town for sure.

[Bilbo Baggins]

UNVOTE:

Please let's hold up and not do anything too rash. I am unsure about SK's revised claim but a lot of this response from SK looks plausibly Town; I am not sure I would conclude botched fake/safe claim. More later from a proper computer.

- Plum

[Bilbo Baggins]

I WILL FOLLOW YOU TO THE END, O POWERFUL WIZARD

VOTE: SK

PS Smiley tell is an awesome scumcatcher, do not mess.