Newbie 1117(Town Wins)

[BBmolla]

/confirm

[BBmolla]

Inc. wall of test.

Can I ask you guys something? Why do you RL d1? It's apparently a normal strategy here but I don't understand it.

I mean let's logically look at the possible outcomes:

Either 55% or 66% chance of hitting townie.
22% of hitting maf.
11% to 22% of hitting a PR.

So just judging by percentages we have just as much of a chance of hitting mafia as we do a power role.

Now let's get specific, if we RL maf they can either:
1. Claim a Power Role
2. Claim to be blue, probably proceeding with the RL anyway.(Maf dies)

Now if they do 1, then there are two more possibilties:
A. No CC
B. A CC

If A occurs it means:
C. The role does not exist within the game.
D. The role does not want to speak up.

If either C or D occur, a lynch would be unwise on an uncc'd PR. (Although, I haven't really seen the whole "role my not even exist" factor so idk about that)


If B occurs it means:
E. We lynch a mafia.(Maf dies)
F. We lynch a Power Role.(Maf lives)

Lynching a blue d1, which will undoubtedly happen, will just cause the town to be even more widdled down and allow the mafia to have a better chance of hitting a power role. The percent goes from 14%/28% to 17%/33%.

Attempting to lynch a PR will at least cause them to have to claim which, 66% of the games will cause them to die by getting killed by the mafia, 100% if they're doc. Of course jailer could jail them but then the doc/cop becomes a blue essentially.

You can find flaws in my logic, but going off of nothing seems to be more mafia beneficial.

[BBmolla]

Also, sorry to double post but I can't find edit button... I don't see how the questions will help with determining role. I'm pretty sure someone would answer them the same regardless of role. A townie is not going to respond in a way that makes them look scummy and neither will a mafioso.

I'll answer them anyways, because I know that by not doing so I'll just get "OMG SCUM HE'S SCURRED OF ANSWERAN."

1. I prefer to play town, preferably a power role that's not investigative. AKA Doc or Bomb or such. Blue is difficult because I have to convince everyone I'm on their side when I don't know who I'm convincing and I have absolutely no way to convince them except by towntelling. Mafia is far more difficult because I have to actually convince people that the other people, whose roles they actually are, are mafia.

2. Realistically obviously I would just accept treats, nobody in the right mind would kill their grandma.

[BBmolla]

Not random lynch, random vote. First votes are rarely the reason for a lynch. I think your misunderstanding the process. A D1 lynch is always on someone who has garnered the most suspicion, not who people randomly voted at the beginning. Votes and questions both stimulate discussion that eventually leads to a lynch. You are thinking into it too much.

What do you suggest is done?

There can only be two PR max in this setup. A mafia with a power role claim leaves themselves in the open for two other people to claim their power.

Many flaws in your speculation. Sometimes mafia keeps a power role around for various reasons, such as they believe town will eventually lynch them or that their reads are terrible enough for keeping them around.

A random lynch is certainly anti-town, but thats not what we're doing here.

I'm all down for a discussion, but if nothing has actually occured within the game what is their to discuss?

It's just different, I'll go with it, but don't expect me to lead any lynches d1.

[BBmolla]

Alright, despite being number 1 FoS for most of you, at some point could you all give a second FoS? I'm a terrible scumhunter, and I'd like to avoid OMGUSing.

I'd prefer to no lynch, but it's simply from past games at other places. No lynch and Random Lynch have their benefits, it's essentially the difference between entering the lottery and not entering the lottery. Not entering, you'll never lose, but you'll never win.

Either way, had I said "I refuse to answer these questions" or the what I did say, the disagreement with the questions would seem scummy.

Gonna wait for more posts. Don't hammer on me if it comes to it.

[BBmolla]

The fact that he stated he answered them so no one would call him scum is a little...selfish. Don't know if that's the right word, but saying that instead of agreeing that it brings on more discussion isn't pro-town to me.

I'm not going to sheep and say that something is a great idea if I have issues with it.

Also, I personally do not FoS Random at this point in time, I think his arguement is pretty logical tbh. Seeing how people react under pressure is a good idea because I know for a fact people will react differently, whether intentionally or not, when they're scum under pressure and town under pressure.

I mentioned the not hammeran because I didn't want to die with my song unsung.

[BBmolla]

@Bo
I resent RVS because in EM you would normally NL d1, or if you were crazy you were bandwagon and rl. EM is different though because most games start in the night phase, so the first day something has already happened.
However, because every game does use RVS here, it must be proven to work better. I'm not too happy with it, the thought of lynching a PR or outing one d1 is not a pleasant idea for me. But I'm not going to force an NL if people don't agree with me.

I don't think any random voting is neccessary tbh, I'd rather just say who one FoSes and then when you're 90% sure they are mafia, you vote. Random voting is a sign of a Fool(Jester) in EM because why would you vote someone unless you believe me them to be mafia and have a solid reason for your FoS.

A wagon was forming so I figured I'd throw it out there. I don't see why that's such a big deal. If I don't get the hammer there is always the chance I can't make it one day and then bam I come home and I'm lynched.

Was linked to EpicMafia while browsing /v/. Started by playing it with enormous 20 men setups that were all ridiculous roles. Eventually found out the game is really fun with just a few people and found out the importance of blues. Kept playing. Got into Silver Lobby when it existed. Still pretty bad at scum hunting and it's something I need to work on. I've also played it in real life at a party once, but realized it's hard with normal people because they just don't care enough.

Also, irrelevent, but I made a few videos based on "Meet The ____" for epicmafia.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ecscNq1N ... ture=inbox

Gonna throw this out there real quick, that I think some of the scumtells you guys are getting on me is pretty bogus. I might as well lurk because every time I talk it's a scum tell in some way or another.

[BBmolla]

What are your current reads BBMolla? Who strikes you as scummy and why? I see you didn't FoS me and find my argument to be logical, what then are your thoughts on my case about you? Is that logical enough that you don't find my pushing of it to be scummy? Are there any responses to any points raised you'd like to bring up?

I got nothing concrete so far. Nothing I'd be willing to vote on at least. You're case on me is a little ridiculous and is the same reason I'm not pointing any fingers yet. You're FoSing me on the tiniest details, and while it is the tiny details that show who is truly town and truly maf, I think your jumping on it too fast. At this point in the game, it's even possible that there are no mafia. That the host decided to screw with us by making absolutely no mafia. Why? Because nobody has died. A blue and a mafia are no different at this point in time except for the fact that a mafia would like to lynch anyone except themselves and their partner while a blue wants to lynch only the mafia. If there were no mafia, I'm pretty sure this D1 would still go exactly the same with people pointing fingers at each other and ending up with a blue getting lynched because he didn't like the idea of something or he "scumtelled."

I'm just rambling now. There's nothing really to discuss, the host "died" but that's irrelevent because the choice was not possible for the mafia to make. Nothing has happened.

So, give me a few pages and I'll get back to you. I'll wait for some more people to randomly point fingers.

[BBmolla]

I'm too hardcore for rules bro.

[BBmolla]

BTW, just so you know I read the rules.

I like the post about me being defensive or whatever by trying to NL, I don't see how this makes me ignorant of the rules.

And, those who voted me, give a second FoS please.

The song unsung is a reference to a song.

And @bvoigt I say you're pulling for straws with scumtells. We "lose" a mislynch that is almost guaranteed to kill a blue, I don't see how that's extremely beneficial. Forget about the NLing.

Once again, don't hammer. Gonna tally up the votes and see how many I have.

[BBmolla]

Alright, only two, but still tons of FoS on me. Gonna repeat and ask you to give a second FoS.

[BBmolla]

>Forget about the NLing.

[BBmolla]

What questions Haze?

I request a second FoS so I actually can see what other people are thinking and see if I agree with those FoSes for their reasons or not. Obviously I'm going to disagree with a FoS on myself so that's useless to me. Also, for future reference.

[BBmolla]

My paranoia regarding the lynch is because I'm used to faster bandwagons. Most of the scumtells I'm showing are just dumbtells cause I'm not sure how forum mafia works when compared to other forms. A lot more reading in between the lines I suppose.

Unfortunately my reads are highly biased from whose been voting me and who hasn't been so I need to work more on looking at it from a different point of view. Not much to say until the replacement and Quackerz post more. Feel free to ask me anything if you guys want, once I get some reads on the replacement and Quackerz I'll throw out a vote.

For now I will FoS

Kad

who has slipped under the radar of all reads thus far.

[BBmolla]

Well. Let's see.

Random I'm getting town, he's trying to get reads out for everyone. Not just honing in on one person and attempting to lead others against them.

Toast I'm getting town. Even if others seem wary about him, I'm not getting a scummy feel from him. Also his post with the Buttered and Burnt toast was pretty well thought out.

Haze I'm getting mixed feelings. Some posts he acts really new and then the next one he acts like he understands the game completely which is a bit odd.

bvoigt seems really aggressive, every post seems to be an attack on someone.

kad is going under the radar by posting as little as possible and coming in last second to give a FoS/Vote.

Bo is giving me a suspicious read. Wish I could have seen more of him but alas I'll have to wait to see from his replacement.

And Red is the most suspicious for me for previous reasons stated by others that make logical sense.

Also, just to get it out there, I was wrong about the NL. Unfortunately, the despute around the NL has not done anything to make me look very townish, I will admit, which is why I can understand the FoSes towards myself.

And Quackerz seriously needs to post.

[BBmolla]

I did a triple take on the above post before I realized it was just a misquote rofl.

I can't explain my feeling on Bo. Something just doesn't fit right.

[BBmolla]

I'm going to agree with this lynch unless anyone has any huge objections. If you do, please speak up.

Vote:Redcolbalt

[BBmolla]

The logic I'm agreeing with and referring to is in post 92. Although in looking at it you'll just have to refer back to the rest of the discussion haha. Really though, it's not that much, take your time and read through it.

[BBmolla]

You may have noticed a significant downturn in posts from me, mainly because I'm busy working.

My reads are completely opposite of everyones which is a bit frightening. For now, I'll

Unvote:RedCobalt

Because I can't specifically state why in the first place.

I'm following the game, I just don't have much to contribute as my scum reads are absolutely whack.

[BBmolla]

You may have noticed a significant downturn in posts from me, mainly because I'm busy working.

My reads are completely opposite of everyones which is a bit frightening. For now, I'll

Unvote:RedCobalt

Because I can't specifically state why in the first place.

I'm following the game, I just don't have much to contribute as my scum reads are absolutely whack.

I state that im finding you a little more trustworthy and you go and post this - just because other people don't agree with your reads doesn't mean they're 'whack' - if you can put reasons to them and explain them it's not scummy. My read on you also seems to not be the general consensus but it's valid.

Admitting you can't specifically state why you voted RedCobalt is a little suspect.

I think the funniest part is that I was going to add that I stopped posting because whenever I posted it seemed to hurt me more than harm me but I didn't because I thought I'd get call scummy for saying it.

I voted for RedCobalt because of Toast's reasonings seeming to make sense, even though I didn't analyze them completely.

[BBmolla]

I don't like either of these posts.

k

What's your concern with having different reads from other players?

Should two townies really get different reads most of the time? Just seems a bit odd.

And how do the two bolded lines match up?

They don't. My reasoning wasn't very well thought out so I didn't really have a true reason to vote him.

Also, "I thought I'd get called scummy" continues to show a survival-oriented motivation.

Cool.

[BBmolla]

Also, "I thought I'd get called scummy" continues to show a survival-oriented motivation.

Cool.

Do you have a response to this point? I think it's legitimate.

No, I agree with you, it was survival oriented. However, had I not mentioned it, it would have just been used as evidence of me being scum.

Verydark's reasonings are logical. I'm just terrible at this, that's the only thing not being factored in.

I'm getting a town read on toasty, but I think my reads are based upon aggression. Aggression just seems scummy to me, which obviously isn't how it works.

[BBmolla]

What's your concern with having different reads from other players?

Should two townies really get different reads most of the time? Just seems a bit odd.

Before I respond to this, one question: what players, exactly, have different reads from you?

All. Mainly the read on Toast.

[BBmolla]

I know I'm at L-2, but could I just give my defense now? Even if I don't get lynched now, all the "scumtells" and such I put off which has caused a ton of FoS directed towards me is just going to cause issues later in more dire circumstances.

[BBmolla]

I'd scumhunt, but I'm not at the point where I can recognize any tells. That's why I haven't been contributing anything.

I've got a response, but I can't say it without outing my role.

Also Kad, claiming and matching roles is pretty useless considering there's a percentage that a role doesn't even exist.

[BBmolla]

What do you think is scummy?

-Extremely aggressive, pointing out a ton of FoSes, or just trying extremely hard to get a player lynched.
-Not contributing anything, adding in comments like "Yeah" "Okay" "Well cop might not be in setup" stuff that are facts as opposed to opinions.
-Claiming a PR and retracting without a clear reason.
-Buddying.
-Checking a cc as an investigative role.
-Take game a bit more seriously, as a townie is relaxed while the mafia is on edge at all times.

In general, a mafia either
A. Lurks because they're afraid of looking like maf.
B. Say a lot, contribute nothing.
C. Get really paranoid and yell.

I mean I donno. All the psychological reasoning behind what I find is scummy is simply because of spur of the moment gameplay, resulting in a lot more of scumslips. I mean just the other day we had cop ccs, where one "cop" accidentally gave two reports even though it was a day start and it was the second day.

The aggression in this game is really throwing me off.

[BBmolla]

Mainly, scum on Kad and RedCobalt. Town on the rest. Also I didn't quote jack.

[BBmolla]

Ok, I'm a noob, but I understand scum tells, but it's funny because then you go on to provide a very clear opinion of what a scum tell would be...

Most of these tells apply to chatmafia, which is veeery different.

Based on that analysis, I think you're on your merry way to scumhunting. I've seen a lot of the aforementioned in this game, but the biggest scum tell to me is simply not committing to a play style. You're all over the place in this game, randomly voting and retracting votes, getting overly defensive, contributing nothing, buddying...the list goes on- many of which you claim to be scummy behavior.

I feel different each day and play differently each day, that's about the only thing I can say.

Thanks for that in depth analysis. You're on the chopping block dude, work harder. Props to staying true to your scummy looking vote on Redcobalt earlier in the game.

Your welcome. I'd address this, but once again I'd have to claim.

This seems to me like you're already preparing to claim, You've at least demonstrated in this post that you're not a vanilla townie and that you have some sort of power role. I don't believe in rolefishing, but now I really want to see where this is going...dropping a subtle hint like this is scumtastic, because you're trying to, again, divert attention from your actions by essentially "changing the subject".

Changing the subject? I'm avoiding a subject because it'll out myself.

My vote stays, I'm having a hard time placing a FoS on your scum buddy though.

This comments my favorite cause there are two maf out there and you can't find either one.

FoSes on Kad and Red because they're the only ones playing as bad if not worse than myself.

[BBmolla]

Also, I'm worried that I'm the only one who is noticing the obvious reason that BB is town. And it's a very, very obvious reason at that. Although possibly a gambit, it's much more likely to come from bb-town than bb-scum... Yet people aren't even commenting on it, let alone making references to it. Weird. And yes, I know I'm being somewhat subtle here, but if you know what I'm talking about, then you know what I'm talking about, and if you don't, then you don't need to know.

...Honestly haven't the faintest clue what you're talking about, but I'm assuming it's not something good and not something I did on purpose.

Could someone explain the scum read on Toast? Is it just from the IIoA posts?

[BBmolla]

Here's something I'm pretty sure of.

Kad, whether town or mafia, will be unhelpful either way.

ya, so vote me

If you insist.

Vote:Kad2361

[BBmolla]

It seems to me that he's a town member that doesn't care, which in the long run could be more detrimental to the town than a scum member hiding amongst the town.

However, he could possibly be scum trying to throw us off by asking to be lynched.

[BBmolla]

It seems to me that he's a town member that doesn't care, which in the long run could be more detrimental to the town than a scum member hiding amongst the town.

However, he could possibly be scum trying to throw us off by asking to be lynched.

You're voting a town read? We can win with a somewhat anti-town townie alive. We can't win if we don't lynch scum.

I'm not getting a town read, I'm getting a dumb read. Which could go either way.

[BBmolla]

Look, I'm not 100% certain he's mafia. There only way I would know for sure is if he cc'd me as a PR. All I do know is I wouldn't want him to be with me in a 3 way LYLO, and there is no way, if he is town, that the mafia is going to kill him.

He is either:
A. Mafia.
B. A town member who doesn't care.

Yes. A town member who doesn't care would be a dumb read.

[BBmolla]

By the way, don't know where to post this, but I'm going on vacation till Tuesday, so I'll post when possible, but expect me to post far less.

[BBmolla]

Well yeah, he's either mafia or town. Which one do you think he is? It still sounds to me like you actually have a town read on him.

I have a dumb read. I don't know how much plainer I can put this. I'd be willing to spend a mislynch on him because he could quite possibly be maf, and if not, no big loss. I mean he's semi lurking, which may be due to the fact that he's scared of looking scummy, which in turn makes him look scummy.

At this point in time, he's my scummiest read.

[BBmolla]

You couldn't put it less plainly. You just contradicted yourself, you said he was a dumb, then scum read? What??

Or am I being an idiot?

Scum can be dumb. Hows that a contradiction?

[BBmolla]

Oh crap. Come back at L1. Defense time I guess.

The funny thing is, my defense at the L-2 earlier was very similar to Kad's defense in that I was just going to asked to be lynched. Why? Because I was obviously failing the town this first game and was offering nothing intelligent, so if it came to a point where I was the clear for some reason at a 3-Way LYLO it would end badly. I switched to Kad because I honestly believe he has less to offer the town than I do. And that could either be A. He's a bad town player. or B. He's scum.

In regards to my sudden raise in intelligence or whatever, I didn't read the wiki or anything I just finally had something to actually go off of which was Kad being a good lynch.

I'm blue, so you could call me a "safe lynch" or whatever, but I please ask those voting me to reconsider and vote Kad. Ask yourself, if it was a three way LYLO would you rather me be the clear or Kad?

[BBmolla]

I'm assuming you read his 'should i give my defence now' to mean he had a role to reveal? I did the same actually but that in itself didn't do anything to change my opinion.

Just going to address this. Originally I was extremely defensive, which was totally because of survival instincts. Then someone pointed out that my defensive stance was indicative of a PR, so I decided to play with that mentality. My thought process was that if I could soft claim hard enough, and I didn't get lynched, I could possibly fool the mafia into lynching me allowing our PR(s) to survive another day. I slipped in a few soft claims in some of my posts and I'm assuming some of you picked up on it.

Also, I'm already voting Kad, so I can not hammer on him.

[BBmolla]

Was almost sure hammer was inc. Regardless, whether someone was going to hammer or not is pretty irrelevent; if I'm at L-1 why should I wait for someone to say "I'm going to hammer on you." when there is no clear reason why the lynch would possibly change? And Blue is VT.

[BBmolla]

I'm assuming you read his 'should i give my defence now' to mean he had a role to reveal? I did the same actually but that in itself didn't do anything to change my opinion.

Just going to address this. Originally I was extremely defensive, which was totally because of survival instincts. Then someone pointed out that my defensive stance was indicative of a PR, so I decided to play with that mentality. My thought process was that if I could soft claim hard enough, and I didn't get lynched, I could possibly fool the mafia into lynching me allowing our PR(s) to survive another day. I slipped in a few soft claims in some of my posts and I'm assuming some of you picked up on it.

Also, I'm already voting Kad, so I can not hammer on him.

Where did someone suggest it was indicative of a power role? I know it was said that less activity and keeping your head down is a tell of PR's but over defenciveness? I'd have thought that was a particularly bad thing, the fact they'd need to be so defencive this early on.

What i don't like in this statement is that you supposedly switched from over defenciveness to outright trying to get yourself killed at night, an honorable thing for a VT to do but it seems a little out of character, especially when you were soft claiming the PR when at L-2 using it as a defence then arrive at L-1 and completely bail on it, it's mentioned and then you reveal the whole 'plan'

You used the soft claim to try and survive
You dropped the soft claim at L-1 (a couple of your posts later) and claim VT
You're pulled up on it
You expose that you were trying to attract a night kill...

The most worrying thing here is that the mentioning of the soft claim was never directed at you specifically, you chose to defend yourself on it before it became an issue seemingly and then told us of this plan, which you could have kept in place

Shall i tell you what it looks like?

'Ok, soft claim.... oh shit, they're not stopping because of it.... riiight, well now i'm at L-1 i either need to claim a role that there's a good chance will be a duplicate and if that person is on the other wagon, they'll hammer.... or i need to claim VT and hope they go away.'

This leaves me in a situation where I'm really undecided on who between you and Kad should be lynched, I am hopeful that we'll choose the right one as between you i'd say one of you HAS to be scum at this point.

You're misunderstanding, I didn't start soft claiming until people assumed I was soft claiming when I wasn't.

Here's how it happened:
I get defensive instinctually, not intending for anything.
Someone mentions my defensiveness could be indicative of a PR
I go along with it, soft claiming, because if the town thinks I'm a PR, the mafia will too.
At L-2 I was going to claim VT, and was going to offer myself as a lynch because I felt like I wasn't contributing.
At L-1 I claimed, realizing soft claiming a PR would do no good for the town if I'm dead.

I didn't plan on soft claiming PR until someone mentioned that it appeared I was doing it.

It's not the most townie thing, claiming a PR, and I can understand that, which is why I didn't fully go through with it. Had I actually been maf, I probably would have ended up claiming a Power Role, because then things would make more sense.

I truly and honestly believe I can contribute more to this town then kad; and I think a ML would be well spent on him.

[BBmolla]

I don't know. I'd be willing to spend a lynch on it though.

[BBmolla]

That's a fair enough response, i suppose but in my opinion a mislynch is never 'well spent' - sure the information can lead to a true lynch but it's obviously better to get the true lynch first.

If a person seems possibly scummy, that's the second best time for a ML, the first being when someone is definite scum. Kad may be fine now lurking and not contributan, but down the road it'll become an issue when it comes to a point where you HAVE to lynch mafia.

By the way, if you're scum and taking hints about gameplay, your intelligence boost coincides fairly well with Muffin entering the game and certainly your down turn in posts also.

Not really sure how to respond to this, I'm still as smart as I always was, my posts are just making more sense because I have something to actually go off of, which is Kad being a good lynch. Also, I could be wrong, but I don't even think mafia are even allowed to talk during the day.

[BBmolla]

Wow. Let it be known that I STILL support my vote on BB. And I will NOT be supporting lynches based STRICTLY on inactivity. This is exactly why.

It was our first ML, and we still have another. Post #355 explains it with the same logic I used. Kad was not going to be killed by the mafia because he wasn't going to help the town, and if he wasn't gotten rid of sooner he could have caused issues later in the game because of his lurking tendencies and his overall unhelpfullness.

VOTE: zMuffinman - i want some responses to the stuff i raised prior to the flip regarding the way your interactions with BB have played out. BBmolla, please also respond to the points where it's relevant.

If you could elaborate on what you want me to respond to, then sure.

[BBmolla]

'I was going to use the 'so vote me' that Kad did' yet i've shown you his response to that argument when Kad made it and BB didn't seem to like it - infact switching his vote right across - If he thought it to be a valid defence, why would that make him move his vote?

The "vote me" is not a defense. It's a way of giving up. I was going to give up on the game because it became pretty apparent I was hurting the town more than harming it, so I figured I should just be lynched so that the town could move on. Kad used the defense, but it could also have been a WIFOM. A dangerous WIFOM if your scum, but a WIFOM nonetheless.

Also that he got less survival orientated, decided he'd go with the soft claim idea and then still backed out the moment he had to - He should have held on to it in my opinion, Kad was always more likely for the lynch - it just seems a little odd - if his aim was to eat the night kill he ended up instead making himself the one least likely to be targetted by it. I mean it may be something newbies here have used BUT the flip-flopping on his potential defence seems - odd? 'i was going to claim VT and asked to be lynched - people thought it was a soft claim so i went with that to draw a night kill and then i just came out as VT'.

I absolutely disagree with me going through with the soft claim. There is nothing more scummy then someone who claims a PR when they aren't one. The biggest issue with it is it could have outed a real PR, which would have been all for nothing. I soft claimed it, sure, but only to draw the night kill, not to protect myself.

[BBmolla]

*hurting the town more than helping

[BBmolla]

Need RedCobalt to talk more, he hasn't said anything in 150 posts :/

[BBmolla]

Oh lol, first post isn't updated so I saw his name on there and I was like "Hm where has he been?"

In addition to the points I mentioned earlier, I'm guessing there was scum on the kad wagon. BB's vote seems like the most probable candidate. He seemed to vote kad more for being unhelpful than being a true scumread. He also contradicted himself about his read on kad: first saying "he's a town member that doesn't care," then saying "I'm getting a dumb read," then saying "he's my scummiest read."

He seemed like a town member who didn't care, due to him being pretty dumb and unhelpful. He was my scummiest read however, mainly because everyone else seemed town to me. I wasn't lying.

@bv: If I were to be scum, who do you think my partner would be? And if I were to pop up blue, who would be your immediate suspects?

Also, if it's going to cause issues, we can lynch me today just to prove my innocence. It'll be a ML, but it'll clear some things up and allow people to get past me as the obvious scumread.

Thoughts?

[BBmolla]

Blue = VT, sorry old habits die hard.

[BBmolla]

Well it's quite obvious a few players are absolutely adamant about lynching me, and nothing is going to change that. I'd prefer to lynch scum, but those certain few, namely verydark and bvoigt to an extent, are tunneling the crap out of me. If I'm literally so scummy that everyone else doesn't matter, then I'd like to see their reactions when I flip VT.

[BBmolla]

The points for and against BB are still too close to move him to any part of the spectrum. Though, getting yourself lynched just to say "I TOLD YOU SO! HA HA HA HA!" is not a good idea. Got a better reason for it?

Well that wasn't the only reason. It was also so verydark could actually scumhunt other people excluding myself. And because I've kind of used up my usefullness as a townie, considering I probably won't be Night Killed because of all of the suspicion cast upon me.

I'm really curious about the reasoning behind #350, I'd like to hear a response from verydark as well.

[BBmolla]

I deliberately left that last quote hanging. Since I am still sticking with BBmolla as my primary scum read, it's super suspicious when someone

A) Defends them several times
B) Leaves a cryptic post directed at the person with no explanation

I might just be misunderstanding Muffins cryptic post, but I don't like it.

I'm assuming he was referring to my soft claims, meaning he was assuming I was a PR. We went over this when I claimed VT.

Also, the fact that BB claimed VT is really not setting well with me, statistically the chances of 3 out of 9 roles being revealed to be the same is definitely in the less likely to happen than more likely category.
I'm no major in statistics, but the town is comprised of either 55% or 66% of VTs. It's really not that surprising.

Also, I think Voided is being truthful. Redcobalt wasn't the best player, he could have still looked scummy while being town, it's absolutely plausible especially with better players around. Who seems scummy all depends who can towntell best, which is why I've got all this FoS despite being a townie.

[BBmolla]

2)

Since BB beat around the bush a lot as to potentially having a power role early in the game, and then claiming he's a VT at hammer time....why wasn't he the one that was NK'd. No one else slipped up like that. Could it be because he's actually

neither

a PR or VT?

I thought this was fairly obvious. The reason they kept me alive is because of all the suspicion on me. Why would they kill someone who half the town thinks is scum? That makes no sense. I mean, think about it. As mafia would you rather kill:

A. A player who a lot are suspicious of who is almost confirmed not to be a PR.
OR
B. A player who nobody suspects and could potentially be a PR.

Night killing me would have been stupid on their part and the fact you had to even ask this makes me wonder.

[BBmolla]

2)

Since BB beat around the bush a lot as to potentially having a power role early in the game, and then claiming he's a VT at hammer time....why wasn't he the one that was NK'd. No one else slipped up like that. Could it be because he's actually

neither

a PR or VT?

I thought this was fairly obvious. The reason they kept me alive is because of all the suspicion on me. Why would they kill someone who half the town thinks is scum? That makes no sense. I mean, think about it. As mafia would you rather kill:

A. A player who a lot are suspicious of who is almost confirmed not to be a PR.
OR
B. A player who nobody suspects and could potentially be a PR.

Night killing me would have been stupid on their part and the fact you had to even ask this makes me wonder.

Questioning it is not scummy, BB.
Taking you out would have created a lot of suspicion probably on quite a few actual town players, your soft claiming is the closest thing scum have to information on a PR and whilst you retracted it it COULD have been been a way to hide that you actually do have one and decided that announcing it early in the game was a bad idea.
I mean, automatically assuming that you've made gameplay errors when you could have actually made some smart moves that could either 1) Paint you as a PR or 2) Paint you as scum is a dangerous road, for scum and for town, depending of course on your alignment.
Either way that's a great load of WIFOM you just created.

Hm. Didn't even see it that way. Makes sense.
I still think it would have been more beneficial for them to try to kill a/the PR though.

[BBmolla]

Out of bvoigt and verydark which one would you rather lynch?

I've thought of them both as scummy for a while, but I thought it was just me. The only people I'd feel safe lynching today is either of them, or maybe Voided if someone comes up with a logical argument as to why he seems scummy.

[BBmolla]

@verydark and bvoigt
Any case I made on you would have easily been arguable with "Well you're just mad cause we're voting you."

[BBmolla]

EBWOP: Real fast, what do people think of a possible Toasty/bvoigt scumteam?

bvoigt has been constantly on Toasty, distancing them. They were also on opposite sides of the BB/Kad wagons, with Toasty on Kad and bvoigt on me.

[BBmolla]

@verydark and bvoigt
Any case I made on you would have easily been arguable with "Well you're just mad cause we're voting you."

So, this basically amounts to, "I don't want to make a case"?

Please, you can do better than that. What happened to that end-of-D1 play?

K I'll make a case.

For verydark, it's absolutely undeniable that you are using "Tunnel Vision" as I've stated before. You did FoS Kad at one point, but kept your vote on me regardless. Out of your seventeen posts, you mention your suspicions of me being scum in your post 1, 2, 3, 5, 6, 8, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16. That's literally 13/17 posts where you mention I'm scum. If that's not tunneling, I don't know what is. You have literally ignored every other player, except for Kad who you FoSed at one point like I said, Muffin who you mention is probably my scumbro, and voided who was looking bad because of some bullcrap technicalities. You given me nothing to read off of because all you are is a person pointing his finger at me and nothing more. IMO, you've been not a bit more useful then Kad, who while FOSing me still gave his thoughts on other people's points and looked at almost everyone.

For bvoigt, he did not make the same mistakes at Verydark. While FoSing me, he's always given his opinion on everyone and props for that. I don't have anything very solid on bvoigt just feelings and deduction. I haven't gotten any posts from him that scream town to me, which makes him scummier by default than some of the others. He hasn't said anything that could be counted as too drastic. If he is scum, he's a very good scum which would make sense considering him being the IC.

That's as good as a case I can really make.

[BBmolla]

@SRG
I'm thinking this was just a typing error, but the case is made on Verydark not Voided.

I was at L-1 because I was unfamiliar with the playstyle, but now I've gotten used to it. I mean my first posts were about me questioning the playstyle.

The main thing I didn't factor when I first started was the amount of scumhunting. EpicMafia players are terrible at this in general.

The closest build we have to this build is a build called "Lynch Or Be Lynched", which is one of four setups:
Three villagers, 1 Nilla maf and either:
Cop, watcher, hooker
Doc, cop, hooker
Doc, watcher, guiser
2 villagers, guiser

And even in Lynch or Be Lynched, you'll have people claiming roles since d1 in an attempt to out other roles.

In general, I didn't realize how much more this game focuses on little "slips" because I'm used to a game focused more on claiming and lynching between counter claims. No cases are made, only thoughts on people being scummy because of how they've contributed.

[BBmolla]

EBWOP: Also, haven't placed my vote because if I'm the only one who thinks of someone being scum the vote is absolutely pointless. At least at this point in time. Kad was a special case because we had no possible way to read anything off of him, meaning he could flip either way, and because we only had like a day left to lynch someone.

[BBmolla]

I'm not taking it personally, it's just frustrating because I'm not scum and there's no apparent way to prove it to you.

[BBmolla]

You just named two relationships that involve me, why would I guess those as scumteams?

[BBmolla]

You just named two relationships that involve me, why would I guess those as scumteams?

muffin-bv would be another example (but another kind; they are distancing in the sense that they spend little to no time talking about one another)

But if bvoigt were lynched that wouldn't really change the outlook on muffin. But, it would affect you because if he popped up town it would make you look more scummy while if he popped up scum you would look more townish. That's why I wondering about a possible scum team between you two to throw us off.

It was just a thought, don't think much of it. I'm really trying to think of possible scumteams, because none really make too much sense to me right now.

[BBmolla]

Also, if it's going to cause issues, we can lynch me today just to prove my innocence. It'll be a ML, but it'll clear some things up and allow people to get past me as the obvious scumread.

I said this for a reason. Unless the lynch is either verydark, bvoigt, or voided we might as well just lynch me. I'd be totally fine seeing how dumbfounded verydark is when I pop up villager. If I'm going to get lynched, I want it now as opposed to at lylo/mylo.

[BBmolla]

@BB:

How long, approximately, have you found verydark and myself scummy?

VeryDark since the end of d1. You since the start of d2, with a little suspicion d1.

[BBmolla]

I'm here, I've just said I all I feel needs saying and am waiting for the deadline.

[BBmolla]

You're not even voting. How could you have said everything you need to say?

I'd be willing to vote a few people, but I haven't got anything solid enough to support a vote and last time that happened I just got called out on it.

[BBmolla]

So I'm getting voted for cause I won't vote?

A bit ridiculous if you ask me, at least the other two actually think I'm scum.

And it may be similar to the Kad vote, but I'd say there's a bit more to go off of for me than Kad. And also, if I do get lynched and pop up town I'll do a hell of a lot more for the town than Kad did.

I helped, there's not much I can really do at this point but repeat what I've said. I'd vote verydark, but it seems a lot of others are getting town reads on him. I'd vote bvoigt but I've got nothing solid against him. I'd vote you Voided, but now it'd look like an OMGUS. I don't think SRG should be lynched at this point in time, and I don't think Muffin and Toast are mafia.

I'm waiting to see what SRG, Toasty, and Muffin do, because three votes on me leaves me nothing to go off of. Speaking of SRG, Toast, and Muffin, do any of you have plans on hammering?

[BBmolla]

EBWOP: Also, getting lynched doesn't scare me cause it'll hurt the town, but allow them to start focusing on actually finding the scum as opposed to focusing on me.

[BBmolla]

I'd vote a town read if it came down to a choice between him and I.

Yeah, that's the correct play, since (assuming you're town) there is of course a higher chance of a town read being scum than of you being scum.

Or if your problem with BB is that he was inconsistent with his read, I'm not entirely sure about that. Seems to me like he was saying that kad is either scum or "dumb" town, and if kad was town, BB was less of a liability, or something to that effect.

And he also called kad his "scummiest read."

I wasn't lying, he was my scummiest read, except for maybe verydark. But the read itself was flawed because I didn't know if it was just him being dumb as town or him being scum.

Shall I repeat myself again?

[BBmolla]

If we're all dodging prods why doesn't the deadline just get shortened?

Also I'd still prefer a verydark/bvoigt lynch.

[BBmolla]

Cool, here's a vote I can finally agree with.

VOTE: bvoigt

Wagons are probably going to be me and bv.

[BBmolla]

I'm not too up for lynching BB - I will if it's the option and it's not to say I disagree with that lynch - I don't but i'd say that if BB is scum the main threat we face as town is his partner.

I'd vote bvoigt but I've got nothing solid against him.

A couple of posts later and no case put forward:

Wagons are probably going to be me and bv.

And a vote on Bv - Are you choosing him simply because you see it as him or you? or because you believe he is scum? If so what solid reasoning do you now have that you didn't a few posts ago?

Here's how I see.

I'm getting non town reads on verydark/bvoigt. I'll got null leaning town on Voided at this point. And then I've got town on SRG, Toast, and Muffin.

I don't have anything solid on bvoigt, it's true, but I never will. Trusting my gut.

If people were more leaning to vote verydark or Voided, I would probably jump on either of those. However, I'd prefer lynching bvoigt than Voided, which is why I voted bvoigt when him and Voided both have votes.

Reads are all subject to change after someone is lynched though.

Also, I already addressed that the knowledge gained by lynching me is worth it to a point, except for the whole not lynching scum thing. In all honesty, I'd prefer to get lynched now if all these people really think I'm scum cause we'll have to deal with it tomorrow if I don't get lynched and that'll cause problems.

[BBmolla]

My arguement today is that I'm not scum and that bvoigt is. If you lynch me, please lynch the Mafia at LYLO.

[BBmolla]

Ok ladies, defences up please, as well as arguments against the other person - especially you BB, you've only really said you've been suspicious of Bv and not really YOUR case, don't just echo other cases on him, see if you can find something that makes you certain which may not have been mentioned. I'll be reading over things too of course, but i'd like to see why you believe the other wagon is the best lynch and i swear to god one: 'I'm not scum, so the best lynch is him!' and i'll hammer whoever said it right there.

Posted this already, you must have missed it lol. That's really all I've got, I don't have any posts where he forgot a period or some shit making him scum.

I'm not certain, hence it being a ML. The are only a few situations I'd ever be certain, like getting cc'd as a PR or getting a guilty as cop. Looking at the other options in the town I do think this is the best guess, with my only other guesses for scum being verydark and Voided. I feel like after this lynch a lot more will be clear.

I got nothing concrete. Bvoigt is a very experienced player and after 15 games, 4 as mafia, I think it's safe to say he knows the "scumtells" and how to not display them. I don't know the ropes, so even as a townie I've apparently been displaying "scumtells." He chooses different targets and pushes hard on them until it is evident they won't be lynched. I don't push, because I don't feel as hard about anyone being scum.

I screwed up in the beginning by coming in with a completely different mentality and questioning the game in general, giving people a bad feeling about me.

This defense is bad, but I've dug a hole so deep of just bad posts I can't really recover. I can try to ISO Bvoigt, but I don't know what I'm looking for. I've never played one of these games on these forums, I don't know how scum act over a long period of time.

I'm not really benefitting the town as it is, so if I get ML'd so be it. I just need a fresh start and to watch this game and see who was mafia, just so I can look for similar behavior in future games.

If you're going to hammer, please let me know so I can get some final words out before you do so.

My apologies to the town for my bad play.

My final defense is that I'm the Jester, and that getting lynched will make me win the game. Trololol.

[BBmolla]

I didn't miss it, you posted 571 after 566 I was just pointing out it was funny that I did exactly what you said not to before you said not to do it.

[BBmolla]

He chooses different targets and pushes hard on them until it is evident they won't be lynched.

What do you mean by this, exactly?

You find a reason to vote someone and then continue to push on them. It's like a tunneling, but you switch targets randomly.

[BBmolla]

Did it a few times d1. D2 has been all focused on me.

[BBmolla]

If we lynch Bv today I shouldn't end up at the lynching table again unless SRG, Muffin, and Toast drastically change their opinions on me. Just saying. And tomorrow we'll have another ML as long as we're right with bv.

[BBmolla]

Well actually yeah we'll still have verydark and Voided so I guess the me not getting back on the lynching table isn't very true.

I don't think Bv is a PR, and if he claims it I wouldn't be too apt to believe him.

I really think if we lynch bvoigt the rest will unfold pretty easily. And then, if we have a protective role, they should probably be on Muffin/SRG.

[BBmolla]

Whelp. Good luck Town, keep in mind tomorrow is LYLO. If there is a cop PR he should probably out tomorrow imo. Also, protective roles should probably be on SRG/Muffin.

[BBmolla]

EBWOP: LYLO and MYLO.

[BBmolla]

Good game guys.

I finally got the mindset of the game and how exactly it should work midway, which was the change some were talking about. However, by the time I realized how I should be playing I was already up for the lynch. Thanks for the game guys, I still had a great time playing and watching it till the end.

[BBmolla]

Also, SRG that was an insanely awesome play at the end there.

[BBmolla]

It's fine, I was scummy and you thought I was scummy so you lead upon who you thought was scum. Too much confidence is better than not enough imo.

[BBmolla]

I think that was the soft claim I did.