OPEN 310 - Medical Mafia - TOWN WIN

[Amrun]

Scumhunting isn't selfish. "I wasn't bussing tim!" as in, "I'm scum, but I wasn't bussing!" That's how I read it.

Oh, God. DK might really be scum.

I'm conflicted now.

It's selfish because lynching somebody for scumhunting reasons is a gambit.

This does not make sense and I'm not sure it is English. Next post will be a response to tim.

[Amrun]

First, you say Hoppster is scum and talk about him taking control of the town. Then, I ask you how it's a scumtell, and you say IT ISN'T! Then, you say that it is what seems scummy to you in your next post. You're contradicting yourself all over the place. You're trying to paint a so far very pro-town player in a bad light but you're nervous about doing so. You were trying to come off of your scumread after being attacked for it, but then when I attack you for doing that, it's like that post never happened.

Also, I shouldn't have to ask you for reads and refusing to give them is super anti-town.

It's not contradictory, I don't consider it to be specifically a scumtell.
It's more a sort of out there kind of theory about him and the whole hypo-doc kind of theory. I just like to think outside the box, you have to admit if this was the case with hoppster and he was hatching some sort of super plan for this game, we'd all probably be screwed.
It kinda came about because I was reading the thread and thinking to myself, or gettting the impression, that everyone now just assumes that Hoppster and everyone super supporting hypo-doc are town. To write off people as town, just because they appear to be super active and super townie looking, I think would be a mistake.
However I'll admit it's a far fetched theory, so long as people aren't settling in their reads though i'll be happy.
I may have reasons not to give reads, are you saying I should post my reads on everyone at all times, without provocation? I don't see everyone doing that either...

See, what you're saying here is that the reason you find Hoppster scummy isn't a scumtell and that the ONLY REASON you find your top scumread scummy is that he is being so pro-town that it would be really bad for town if he was secretly scum.

That is not a scumread. Try again.

And yes, you should post your reads at all times without provocation. Through people's scumhunting and reads, we can gather what they think (although most people should be posting more reads as well). You're not scumhunting AND you're not posting reads.

And this is not a Newbie game that I am ICing, even though it feels like that, so you don't get a pass here and I'll scumhunt you as I please.

The above is more nervous waffling about town clearing other people as town. You're trying to sow the seeds of dissension in the town. We need to cooperate with each other to win this game. This level of trying to discredit others' townreads - UNIVERSALLY - is a definite scum tell for me.

And what if the people you are cooperating with are scum?
You not liking that i'm casting doubt on other's townieness is interesting, almost like i'm hiting on some sort of truth.
I just want to avoid (as I said above) people assuming others are town, and then us losing because we overlooked other people.

tim, if calling anyone town is so dangerous and bad, then why are you trying to clear DK as town? If Hoppster trying to break the game is so pro-town that you think it's scum hatching a scheme to try and look town and get cleared and all clears are bad, then why is DK different?

Because DK is the kind of player we would mislynch, he's impossible to make sense of. I think you brought that up yourself.

What truth would you be supposedly hitting at? Do you suspect me, tim? If so, why? These vague accusations on things that are not scumtells will not get you anywhere.

No one is suggesting giving anyone a white horse to ride into endgame with for a townie pass. In particular I want to avoid this with Hoppster. But we still must narrow our lynchpool for today. That is how the game works.

It does seem to be what you are suggesting for DK, though. Let me get this straight: we should lynch Hoppster because it would be really bad for town if he was scum because of his apparent pro-town behavior, but DK is unreadable so we should not lynch him?

I know you are nervous that too many people are calling each other town and nobody is calling you town, tim, but you're going to have to think a little bit more before you post if you want to last very long in this game. /IC cap

And scum could choose to NK, but that's not a big issue. We'll cross that bridge when we come to it. It's unlikely that happens anyway.

I think it is an issue, what if say someone was designated to protect someone underneath them, and that person survives the night and no kills were made that night. But the person protecting was scum?
Or a situation in which we all think "cool nobody died, guess these people must all be doc's" or something like that? Scum doing that could throw this theory completely.

No. We would not be scumhunting or clearing people in this manner ever. Please endeavor to understand the subject at hand.

[IceGuy]

And no I won't give more, not if you ask me like that.

VOTE: tim_hill1990

I may have reasons not to give reads, are you saying I should post my reads on everyone at all times, without provocation? I don't see everyone doing that either...

You should, but I (and most other players) don't do it always, so I won't hold it against you. What I do hold against you is that you actually refuse to give reads although both Amrun and I have asked you several times. And I can't think of a pro-town reason to refuse to give reads.

And what if the people you are cooperating with are scum?
You not liking that i'm casting doubt on other's townieness is interesting, almost like i'm hiting on some sort of truth.
I just want to avoid (as I said above) people assuming others are town, and then us losing because we overlooked other people.

Don't worry. Nobody here assumes that somebody is town from their first post, never changing their reads as the game progresses. However, "he looks like he's town so he might be scum" won't change a read for most people here.

I think it is an issue, what if say someone was designated to protect someone underneath them, and that person survives the night and no kills were made that night. But the person protecting was scum?

That doesn't matter - if somebody doesn't die, we can't assume that the player above him is a doctor. Scum simply could've targeted somebody else.

Or a situation in which we all think "cool nobody died, guess these people must all be doc's" or something like that?

It's an open game. Read the first post, it shows all the roles in the game. We know what roles there are, we just don't know who has them.

[AntB]

VOTE COUNT - 9 alive, 5 to Lynch

DeityKabuto

[L-2] <- Quilford - HellloooNewman - Moratoriumm

Hoppster

<- tim_hill1990

tim_hill1990

[L-2] <- Hoppster - Amrun - IceGuy

Not Voting

<- jilynne1991 - DeityKabuto

DEADLINE

THURSDAY 23 JUNE 2011 23:59:59 UTC
Countdown Timer

[Moratorium]

Amrun: Contribution to this game is very high so is paying a lot of attention to this game for one reason or another. Scumhunting, asking a lot of direct questions. I don't agree with the current wagon, but his conversation with tim_hill1990 has more the tone of attempting to figure him out than trying to push the wagon for others. Leaning town.

HellloooNewman: So far his contribution to the game has been two things: A persistant expression of frustration about DK's playstyle, and a discussion with Amrun on the validity of hypodoc'ing. No scumhunting or attempts to divert from those two topics so far. Leaning scum.

tim_hill1990: Early lurk, became active over time as he picked up a wagon, vast majority of his posting has become self-defensive in nature. That trend in and of itself is not inherently town/scum, but his answers to voters seem satisfactory to me so far. Defensive posting taking away from hearing his opinions of others, would like to hear more scumhunting from this player. Leaning town.

DeityKabuto: Aware of the DK VI meta, so having to look at this player a bit differently in that evaluating language or scumhunting trends or other subtle commonalities that display even a small amount of sophistication don't apply. Attempts to quick-hammer a vote. Also attempts to do this before anyone has settled on the hypodoc'ing tactic. Scum.

IceGuy/chkflip: Initially chkflip is very committed to not being pinned on an opinion, which set off big scum flags for me. IceGuy takes over, posts views on all players, commits to hypodoc, is scumhunting and asking players for reads, is careful with voting to ensure no quick hammers. So the two players in this slot come across as opposite ends of the town/scum spectrum. I can't just average them out and say "Null", I feel like I simply need to hear more from Iceguy at this point.

jilynne1991: Every post, especially early on, is either an apology, an expression of confusion, or mild reactions to other people. No votes in any direction this game yet, nothing that I could pin down as aggressive scumhunting. No effort? Signature says 13 and 10+ games, could be a lie to stay low content, but could be the truth and explain it. Leaning scum.

Hoppster: RVS-Killer post, which at first felt like a good post that might get us somewhere, but seemed to lose steam quickly. Legitimate hypodoc strategy emerges from the post. Post caused incredibly fast L-1, but I don't feel it was purposeful by Hoppster. Some setup speculation, some scumhunting, I don't feel a lot of deceit from his contributions. Some odd interaction with Quilford. Leaning town.

Quilford: Low content, really not contributing enough to this game to pin him on a read. Null.

[Amrun]

How do tim hill's answers seem satisfactory to you?

Also, jilynne isn't lying about being 13 and in a billion games. *sigh*

[Moratorium]

I would describe tim_hill1990's play as basic. You are asking him nuanced questions about specific events and particular phrases, he is responding with "Well maybe it's because he is scum"-type responses. It doesn't say deceit to me, it says simpletown. When I read his counterarguments to you, it sounds like he's reading out of a Mafia for Dummies book.

And what if the people you are cooperating with are scum?

Because DK is the kind of player we would mislynch, he's impossible to make sense of.

Outting people as town is great, except no one is ever confirmed until they flip.

It's all just... strategic pablum. It's a WIFOM view, sure. But that's my read.

[Amrun]

What do you think of his suspicion on Hoppster in contrast with his townread on DK?

[Moratorium]

As for the suspicion and townread themselves, I think they are both wrong.

As for the contrast, I'd like to hear the response to this:

Let me get this straight: we should lynch Hoppster because it would be really bad for town if he was scum because of his apparent pro-town behavior, but DK is unreadable so we should not lynch him?

[jilynne1991]

How do tim hill's answers seem satisfactory to you?

Also, jilynne isn't lying about being 13 and in a billion games. *sigh*

Ok, how you would know that I'm 13 sorta creeps me out, but about the in a billion games (it's just...1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, oh 9! well plus one on another site.)

You seem to be unhappy that I wasn't lying? Maybe so you can possibly get me lynched?

[tim_hill1990]

@mod V/La until Monday, sorry exam coming up

I'll try and cover what's been asked>

See, what you're saying here is that the reason you find Hoppster scummy isn't a scumtell and that the ONLY REASON you find your top scumread scummy is that he is being so pro-town that it would be really bad for town if he was secretly scum.

Well it would, I don't like the way he took charge at the start, and also how he's sat back and watched as if we all think he must be town now.
It is far-fetched I realise that, just seems the way in which he started the game was almost to bold.
That being said I can see your point on him, I think I just wanted to make sure no one was ruling him out.
UNVOTE: Hoppster

You want reads on everyone from me ok>
Amrun> Very active and engaging, has clearly thought about the mechanics of this game and is trying to make sure everyone understands> Leaning town
DeityKabuto> Erratic and dangerous regardless of what side he is on, given no better alternative wouldn't say no to his lynch> Who knows?
helloonewman> Hasn't been active, not much to say other than "we should lynch DK"> leaning scum
Hoopster> If he is town, a bloody good one, if he's scum he's playing very bold, definetly worth keeping an eye on.>
Iceguy> not much of a read, seems keen to jump on my wagon though> null
Jillyne> Same as Iceguy, not much of a read> null
Moratorium> Active player with some good insight> leaning town
Quillford> no read> null

It does seem to be what you are suggesting for DK, though. Let me get this straight: we should lynch Hoppster because it would be really bad for town if he was scum because of his apparent pro-town behavior, but DK is unreadable so we should not lynch him?

Well not really, again wanting to draw attention to everyone not just one unreadable player who would be an easy mislynch if not cased out properly

No. We would not be scumhunting or clearing people in this manner ever. Please endeavor to understand the subject at hand.

Right so we're narrowing our options, gotcha

[jilynne1991]

I've got to say, Tim gave me a bad feeling, but I don't understand *any* of the reasoning behind the lynch. Someone, explain please?

How have I been keen to jump on your bandwagon? I certainly didn't vote you, and this is all that I said about even the possibility that you might be scum.

[jilynne1991]

A liar is scum to me. Town has no reason to lie.

[Amrun]

Your age is on your profile, I'm assuming. I've seen you say you're in middle school.

And I just think you're taking on too much and not giving each game the commitment it needs. I also occassionally play a lot of games, but our level of commitment is not the same. Post count isn't really what counts here, btw.

But that's your business.

P-edit: I like tim's answers. *sigh* I must think and re-read now.

P-edit 2: Good catch, jilynne, but if so, why no vote?

Jily's jumpiness at perceived threats is a scumtell - but it's also a newb tell, so I can't decide.

[jilynne1991]

I wouldn't call it jumpiness. I would say it's more like from my other games, I've learned that I should point out everything that might be a scumslip. That's what alot of people have been doing.

Hmmm, about the how I'm not giving each game enough commitment. I must say, I feel I'm giving each of my games more commitment than half of the other players.

I'd like to hear what everyone else thinks of this.

I just realized, it might seem like I don't give each game enough commitment, since I don't understand that much. I don't know how to write huge walls of text and cases, but I do try.

[Amrun]

But all of your "slips" are things you perceive to be threats to you. It's unreliable in newbies, though.

And just keep on trying. It's a learning curve.

[jilynne1991]

Oh, ok then.

Well, the problem is, my eyes focus more on places where there's my name. =_=

[Amrun]

That happens, but it's not always the best way to find scum.

[AntB]

@tim_hill1990
V/LA Noted. Good luck Tim!

[Moratorium]

Oh, ok then.

Well, the problem is, my eyes focus more on places where there's my name. =_=

HEY JILYNNE1991...

Your age is in your signature.

[DeityKabuto]

Vote Amrun

I can see him as scum, and later in the game, if he does flip, you guys owe me.

[Moratorium]

Why didn't you wait until Amrun had four votes on him, you totally missed out on quickhammering him.

[IceGuy]

You want reads on everyone from me ok>

Why did you not give your reads before that?
What do you think about hypodoc'ing now?
Assumed you alone could decide the lynch, who would you choose?

Also, good luck for your exam.

Current reads:

tim_hill: Finally gave his reads (though I don't agree with him - he calls me and jilynne eager to jump on his wagon, but I only voted him again for his refusal to give reads, and jilynne never voted for him and didn't express suspicions about him), but still didn't provide any justification for not giving them before. Actually, I'd say it's possible newbtown behavior, but he already has three games played to completion, so he's scummy.
DK: Candidate for a policy lynch (yes, I know we shouldn't do this), leaning scum for his attempted quickhammer and strange behavior in general. If tim_hill is scum, DK is his scumpartner; otherwise he would've jumped on his wagon.
jilynne: Probably town, but that's more of a gut feeling.
Newman: Neutral. Needs to post. I don't read too much in his arguments against DK - it seems to be a personal vendetta.
Hoppster and Quilford: Definitely need to post. Their town points from the beginning are being eaten by their lurking.
Moratorium and Amrun: Town.

[Hoppster]

Sorry for the delay in this, had a few connection issues (but they should be sorted out now).

@ everybody:

I've reconsidered my stance on the Nurse issue.

While admittedly we could be in lylo tomorow, I think this is extremely unlikely, and we may be able to put it off until tomorrow.

Thoughts?


UNVOTE:

VOTE: jilynne1991

Moratorium's post here gives me enough doubt coupled with some of my more 'iffy' feelings towards tim_hill that I'm going to go against numbers to push jilynne here.

The whole 'cast suspicion on this person because he is regarded as towny' thing which it feels like he is kinda doing with me is something I have been verrrry sorely tempted to do as newb-town (albeit in very different circumstances). I don't want to come across as arrogant, but most people seem to have me as town (or leaning-town at least) and I don't see (relatively) new scum being bold enough to try and go against the general consensus.


What do I see newb-scum doing?

Fence-sitting or voting opportunistically.

Who is fence-sitting?

Jilynne.

Yet to make a vote.


It's also awfully suspicious how I have posted a good few times that I have her as a scum-read and she hasn't addressed this at all.

[DeityKabuto]

Why didn't you wait until Amrun had four votes on him, you totally missed out on quickhammering him.

I am starting my own leads.