Let's kick this part off with TS actually giving some thoughts (really, how did he not just get lynched or vigged? It's killing me reading back).
Twistedspoon wrote:Right my thoughts from page 6 onwards; took me long enough :3
farside22 wrote:Javert's claim is easily provable. He already stated he would use this today.
Any doubts about this should be brought up if he "changes his mind".
When Javert first claimed I had assumed he would have used it by now. By the way he was swinging his claim around like a club I thought that he was going to use it soon. I guess it might just have been a ruse to stop lurkers lurking. Anyways, Javert, will you be vig'ing today still? If so, who are your scumreads?
Necessary Evil wrote:Wow. I couldn't get on the site at all yesterday and now I'm greeted with a ton of new content. I'm getting caught up now.
then
ender241 right after wrote:UNVOTE: you're on now. As soon as your finished reading up, top scum please.
o rly? unvoting so soon? The slightest trace of NE and you unvoted, before any content of his too. Ah well, you've claimed cop, so i guess it doesn't matter too much.
Necessary Evil wrote:ender241 voted Javert for not answering questions and Oso makes a compelling case for ender, but I don't think Oso is town and I'm not going to sheep his read whithout a strong town read on him.
What makes you think oso is not town (and therefore scum). You didn't really explain this and why you didn't include him in your contenders for your vote or top scum as Ender asked you to.
Prosaurus wrote:ender241 wrote:Oso, what i dislike is the fact that he says he is going to kill today. If you want to DayVig you should wait until we have pretty much confirmed scum.
I'll find out what he is tonight.
UNVOTE: VOTE: Necessary Evil stop lurking, start posting.
So are you a cop or scum?
And is there a reason why I should care about being Day Killed? I don't see one.
This post hit a bad note with me. If ender had accidently revealed his role prematurely, don't point it out for scum to find
Javert wrote:
claiming
now
means I get to actively enforce posting content.
Seems like a weak reason to claim vig so early; to stop a lurker lurking. :/
It's usually only millers that i see claiming as early as you did
ender241 wrote:Dayvig me then.
I don't understand why you posted this. to annoy javert, or do you not believe his claim?
Oso wrote:
4 strong reasons there why his claim is not false:
- No reason, that I can think of, for scum to claim just out of the blue like that, especially not a day role where we can see the result in-thread.
- He has committed himself in such a way that he can't really back out of it. So he's not bluffing about being able to kill. He can day kill.
- He has shut off his options. Rarely (I mean as in never) have I personally seen scum shut off their options as completely as that this early in the game.
- He never does mention vigging anyone who votes him.
From where I stand right now, Javert is exactly what he claims to be.
:goodposting:
It doesn't matter though really if his claim is false at this moment in time though, since he'll be making his kill before the end of the day
Erratus Apathos wrote:Hey Javert, you said you'd vig someone for 4 days without content?
Well Klazam has gone the entire game without content
, so you know what to do.
you want to vig klazam?
Wasn't he v/la
anyways, I don't like directing the vig. I can see scum doing that easily and with good reason to do so.
Rhinox wrote:
Twisted wrote:question: in theory might it be possible to have a daykill scum?
I've seen it in a theme game before.
so might it be possible to appear in a mini game? If so Javert might not be confirmed town even if he does vig kill today; especially if he doesn't get NK'd
Necessary Evil wrote:Good game so far. Keep it up!
what the-
what is this supposed to mean?
We've had 2 PRs outed and no scum dead yet. We have no indication of how close we are to catching scum
Erratus Apathos wrote:
Oh yeah, Twistedspoon is totally scum. Look at his posts between his Javert vote and his unvote. He doesn't attack Javert, he doesn't question Javert, he doesn't push the Javert wagon, he's doesn't do a single damn thing to Javert. He accomplished three things with his Javert vote, and those things were VOTE PARK, VOTE PARK, AND VOTE PARK. He was vote parking on Maxous earlier too, and he's already looking like he's vote parking on NE. I suggest we park a noose around Twistedscum's neck.
Why would I want to attack javert? Maxous was an RVs vote; better than voting for the mod like some of you guys thought it'd be clever to do
vote parking on NE? Sure, as long as someone doesn't outshine his scuminess in my eyes.
Rhinox wrote:
@ EA and ender are both town btw.
you know this how? Or does the unity my wagon provides confirm this for you?
anyways, I've run out of time for today :/
G'Night
Points to take from this: TS tosses some suspicion in Pro's direction for pointing out Ender's claim. +1 to Prosaurus. He also seems dubious about NE's 'good game' comment, but isn't really committal about whether he finds it scummy. Important distinction here, as his vote is parked on NE without any scumhunting, but he casts doubt on multiple other players (including Javert with the possibility of a scum dayvig!!). Calls Oso's points 'goodposting'. +1 to Oso. TS clearly thinks the best way to play scum is to bus your buddies, or at least appear mildly antagonistic to them throughout the game. I don't think he says one complimentary thing about NE's play the entire game. Complimenting Oso's play seems out of character if Oso is TS's buddy.
The other thing to take away from this is that TS still casts some doubt on
the other player who claimed 1-shot cop.
This does lend weight to the theory that TS is an awful scum player. Getting Ender lynched or killed was never going to make people view TS as townier, and he should have known it.
farside22 wrote:Pro - newb town - ugh so many things I want to say and put my IC hat on about.
First voting even anyone for any reason is good. It brings discussion and if someone hammers for no reason during the first few pages they are more likely scum.
Hence voting someone even during RVS is a good thing for info.
Pointing out a soft claim helps scum.
Seeing Javert respond to the same most makes me cringe if Javert is town as I see more scum motivation then town for pointing out the soft claim.
Also I have a question for you. Juls states you are in another game have you learned nothing on how to scum hunt or things that sound off/scummy or seen anything in this game that you see that feels or reads off?
Your 3rd point in your last point is a good start, it's more theory then anything but expand more.
Anyways reading Pro I read someone a bit lost.
Rhinox: The question you ask to TS about asking/specualing others roles. EA asked the same question as TS. Why point out TS and not EA?
Rhinox wrote: - I think of Javert's comment about the questions in this game when reading Rhinox. He is very low under the radar, but when I see this and read TS I believe my first theory is wrong and I see more careful, planing and questioning from a town prospective
Actually, paying more attention to your iso, every post you've made from iso 11 to your current post iso 17, each and every one of those posts, the main topic of your post is speculating about someone's role.
Need to looks into this a bit
TS:
11. Ask why Javert claimed? I don't see this a problem with this question.
12. I pointed this out as well. I saw it as role fishing.
13. how is this role speculating?
14. is hypocritical, see iso post 12.
15. answering the question posed by ender
16. more role fishing exposer
17. and I see speculating.
unvote:
vote: TS
I still think EA is scummy. Klaz would be the person next on my list of scum. He's made some weak points in his read and view that do not add up to his past game behavior.
The points against TS far outweigh anything else. Role fishing, hypocrisy, more role fishing and floating by with no real case on anyone.
Interesting one to look at from Farside here. First of all, Farside continues that trend I stated earlier about pointing out things people have done in relation to TS; here, it's Rhinox singling out TS over EA. This is where I start to get the impression that Farside is trying to tie people to TS; the problem is, I can't tell whether she's doing it from a town or scum perspective. The subsequent vote on TS certainly suggests that it's from a town perspective; the problem is that TS is being truly awful. His contributions are repeatedly vote-worthy, and Farside states as much. If it was more of a marginal situation and Farside was picking out TS, I'd be leaning strong town here. The fact is that TS is scumming up the thread with most of his reactions and is not doing any scumhunting on his number one scumread, which diminishes the power of this vote to give me a townread. I'm still giving Farside some towncred for this, though; the fact is that she's pushing on the mafia roleblocker on D1 with a vig kill around, and she even advocates Oso to vote him in her next post.
Oso wrote:EBWOP: Forgot. @Farside, I'll take at look at TS. I haven't paid any attention to him so far this game.
Mild townpoints for Oso. Not paying attention to TS is scummy. Admitting you haven't paid attention to TS draws other people's attention to the fact that you're ignoring a scummy player, and with a vig kill around that's a doubly risky thing to do.
Oso wrote:@TA. You can consider yourself at L-1 if you wish. I'd vote if we didn't have the question of Javert right now.
(As an aside, I checked. Javert hasn't posted anywhere on site since his last in this thread which was just a hair under 2 1/2 days ago)
I don't have anything original in my reasoning for your vote. Players have pretty much picked over your play so far and caught everything. Some things that do stand out:
1)Your posting lacks coherence. You are all over the place. No follow ups, no prods, no real pokes at players.
2)Votes. Same as above. The only vote you placed where there was a tangible and defensible reason was the vote of Javert.
3)Your vote of NE. Bogus reason. NE maybe wasn't posting as much as others (he[NE] even indicates as much) but his posts generally have content in them. They aren't fluff posts and he isn't posting just to keep his name active in the thread.
4)We are 12 pages and 10 days into the game and you have done absolutely nothing other than just stay active. You haven't made an attack or case of your own. Hell, you haven't even tried to borrow a decent case and reword it. Pretty much active lurking and with your NE vote, I'll have to throw in with EA and add vote parking as well.
The above pretty much, at least in my mind, takes you(Twisted) out of the unsure/null/newish player category and into Scum.
This is a post I cited previously to Farside to indicate why I thought Oso was the most plausible scum with TS. He declares intent to put him at L-1 with a post that basically grudgingly admits that everyone has been right about all the terrible things in TS's play. I read it again and again and it just sounds more like a coaching post. All four of these things indicate what TS would need to do in order to move himself back out of the scum category, and frankly, when reading this, it's hard to imagine just why Oso would have missed all of this.
Oso wrote:Maxous wrote:..
There is something off between Rhinox, Erratus and Ender. Having a CC for Ender means his period of grace is over.
Unvote
vote:Ender241
..
Not that I disagree completely, I had and have some reservations about Ender BUT, how do you figure that TS's role is a direct counter-claim to Ender? I mean, they are identical but if the post of TS's you pointed out is a correct assumption based on what TS already knew about the set-up(his role). Having 2:1-Shot Cops isn't a real stretch.
I'd like more input on how Ender is automatically more scummy than TS because if you disregard their claims, both don't look very good but TS wins in the "scummiest" category hands down.
Point being, if you give TS a pass based on role alone, then you pretty much have to do the same with ender. Their roles are automatically mutually exclusive.
Also:@Maxous.
"There is something off between Rhinox, Erratus and Ender."
Gut? Or do you have references you can use to at least give us an idea of why you think the interactions between the three are off.
I think I'm leaning town on this post because Oso basically points out to Maxous that if he's going to suspect either of the cop claims, it should be TS, not Ender, given that TS is far scummier. He does somewhat reduce his townpoints by leaving himself open to follow Maxous' reasoning on Ender if need be, although not by much.
Oso wrote:Necessary Evil wrote:..
b) TS is just dripping with scum, but his claim fits with his speculation about a one-shot themed game and it looks like we're going to give him at least a night anyway. I wouldn't loose any sleep if he was killed/lynched, but if the rest of you are moving on, I'm fine with that.
UNVOTE: Twistedspoon
Oddly enough, after going back after TS's claim, I feel better about Ender's claim and TS's claim.
TS's "1-Shot Theme" comment makes more sense now. TS knew his role (if you grant that he is true claiming) and saw Ender's claim and made the assumption that all roles are 1-shots, it even makes his comment that he thought Javert had claimed one shot as well more understandable.
I too will wait on Javert before doing much more of note. 3 claims on D1 is fairly unusual in my experience. That all 3 seem to be PRs...I don't think I have ever seen that happen in a game I have been in before.
Part of this is pro-town in mindset, in that he's obviously thinking in the same way about TS as Quilford was when he was trying to defend TS with the speediness of the 1-shot comment, and the same way EA did when he did that about-turn on TS. The last couple of lines ping my scumdar again, though. It's such a cop-out '1 of these 3 are scum' type comment that makes absolutely no commitment whatsoever to who might be lying, and I've seen these many times from scum as an excuse for a contribution that involves no analytical effort.
farside22 wrote:Klazam wrote:Javert: Fair enough.
Let me be on record saying that i believe all three claims (D-Vig, and cops) that has been made today.
Also:
unvote vote Prosaurus
I no longer feel sure that M=W is scum. PS is the next most scummiest in my eyes.
Reasons????
FoS: farside22. Experience cuts against you here. I find it hard to believe you are really propounding the whole “it is antitown to point out an obvious breadcrumb and force a clarification.”
I don't ever agree with outting a PR. If I see something in thread I'm not going to point it out as I feel that information helps the scum team more then town.
I've hid information on PR's many times seeing as scum most of the time miss underling hints or worry about a doctor in the game.
But each claim, if there is a doctor, helps narrow down the field for the scum.
EA: How is ender's play any better then TS? Would you put them under the same category with lack of context?
Honestly I can't see 2 one shot cops. I've never heard of it. Juls broken down the possibilities, but I wonder do you (Juls) have a view on any one of those possibilities between the two players?
The last lines get Farside some townpoints. If Farside is scum, she'd know TS was bluffing, and making statements like this would lead to the finger being pointed at TS as soon as Ender flipped.
farside22 wrote:EA: Why are you ignoring Klaz who is pretty much doing next to nothing when it comes his reasoning? I see you mentioned this with Pro.
I see Pro at least going thru what everyone is saying and replying the the case against him.
Klaz on the other hand I feel. His reason's for voting for Pro was for role fishing but he doesn't say anything about TS who was doing the same thing. I have to wonder when people leave out those who when you look at their post and doesn't comment on them.
Also when he looks into TS he states the following:
Klazam wrote:I'm ambivalent on TS. Null for now.
vote Me=Weird
I really don't get this at all.
Vote: Klazam
@Oso: I can ask you the same. How did you get null read from TS, what changed your mind on him when you were willing to put him at L-1?
Third and fourth time that Farside questions people about their interactions with TS, and there's a definite implication that Klazam is attacking Pro for something that TS is also doing but Klaz is ignoring. So now this is where I'm getting a bad vibe. The only reason that makes sense is if Farside thinks Klazam has a reason to treat those two players differently. Either she thinks he's over-focused on Pro because they're buddies, or he's ignoring TS because they're buddies. There's no exploration of either here. Then we move on to Oso, where again there's an implication that Oso's read on TS changed because he was getting wagoned. You can't downgrade TS to second suspect and then continue to push on people for their attitude towards him. That's the kind of thing you do after a flip, not before. The attitude reeks of knowing TS is scum already.
Oso wrote:farside wrote:..
@Oso: I can ask you the same. How did you get null read from TS, what changed your mind on him when you were willing to put him at L-1?
Um, I don't have a null read on him. He's is still firmly in my suspect list along with ender. Except for their claims.
Willing to give them both a night to see what they do with them. I would refer to this
post, Those are still valid reasons for suspecting Twistedspoon in spite of the claim.
Ender I touched on again
here.
Oso wrote:..
Ender, because of the claim itself. I can see it as a great way to both avoid inadvertently having to sell more innocents than scum can kill and to help avoid a counter sometime after today. I know you(Rhinox) disagree with that but since we both seem to agree that lynching Ender is not the thing to do today, I'm not sure that matters.
..
Between those 2 posts, I mention 4 players:TS, Ender, M=W and Javert that I had some sort of read on. It was the rest of the player's that I put into the 'neutral/null' category because those are the only 4 players I have really looked at in depth. Something I plan on remedying later tonight, have plans for the rest of the day after I get my morning chores and such done. (Actually, the entire weekend has been busier than planned.)
Oso's position on Ender and TS is very difficult to discern alignment from. This attitude makes sense as town; if you're going to give one a chance to prove themselves, you do it for both. The problem is, it's a really easy out as scum. Oso-scum knows that Ender is a legit cop, so he can safely adopt the same attitude towards both players, excuse himself from having to put pressure on TS for the rest of the day and take things from there.
farside22 wrote:Oso: The last time you mentioned TS you stated you had a null read
here
Now there was a case you switch over I was wondering why it wasn't brought up and how it went from null to scum
Oso wrote:Ok, I get what you are asking now.
A lot had happened in the game since I gave that read. When asked about it, that was the read I had on him. Basically null since he seemed to be acting pretty much the way I had seen him act before and he was town in that game.
The reasons I gave for him being scum later in the game, didn't happen in the game I played with him before. He was willing to make votes and cases (or at least try to, even if it was just glomming to something someone else said he could legitimately agree with). He wasn't exactly what I would call decisive in his play in that game but compared to his play in this game, he was.
Quick ISO him in the game that is in the post you linked above, you will see what I mean.
This seems fair and balanced, using meta to justify his TS-read, it looks like well-reasoned pro-town play. If he'd come up with it earlier rather than when TS was already getting wagoned, I'd give him a whole lot more towncred for this.
Oso wrote:ender241 wrote:Alright, sorry everyone for being away.
Top 3 scum from everyone.
Sure, You first. I'll help with your list by putting the first one in there.
1)ender241
2)..
3)..
You can put the other two in there at your convenience.
For me;
Me=Weird
ender241
Twistedspoon
in roughly that order. <actual vote still pending though as stated in my last>
This I really dislike. The vote should not be pending. The vote should be on M=W. Oso has stated why he's giving Ender and TS a chance. Just because he's declared he's running out of suspects doesn't mean he should be contemplating lynching one of the players that he was happy to give the chance to prove themselves. He should be voting M=W, or he should be working harder to scumhunt and push another wagon. This is fence-sitting again in a situation where his vote is a no-brainer.