Mini Normal 1187: Game Over

[ace5993]

Vote: DemonHybrid

for being the only person I know in this game.

[ace5993]

Picking apart reactions, archaebob. You seem to have a lot to say, jumping around pointing your guns like that - are you sure you aren't just looking for someone to start wagoning on? You seem to want to jump the gun pretty fast, right?

Why so defensive? Looks to me like he's just trying to get us out of RVS.

[ace5993]

Picking apart reactions, archaebob. You seem to have a lot to say, jumping around pointing your guns like that - are you sure you aren't just looking for someone to start wagoning on? You seem to want to jump the gun pretty fast, right?

Why so defensive? Looks to me like he's just trying to get us out of RVS.

If you think he's defensive, why not vote him? It'd certainly be a more productive place for it then where it is right now.

I just wanted an answer to my question, I did not feel like voting him would have improved the situation. We don't need a wagon every single time someone does something even the slightest bit scummy.

[ace5993]

Later in the game, no. Right now, that's

exactly

when we should have wagons, because nothing has happened yet.

It's not a question of whether or not Giitah "deserves" a wagon right now. It's a question of maximizing your vote at all time. Later in the game that means voting for who you think is scum. Right now it means voting for the scummiest thing that has happened so far.

Putting a vote on someone changes the atmosphere of any question you ask and questioning under pressure is not

always

the best tactic to get reactions. I do not feel there is any compelling place to put my vote yet.

[ace5993]

Okay, I'll do that right away.

Vote: archaebob

Good boy.

archaebob is agreeing with my vote on him...

inb4jester

Are you serious?

I like the jilynne wagon but can't post in bold from my phone, incoming vote in like two hours barring significant developments.

[ace5993]

@pine: the wagon on jilynne is a pressure wagon not a lynch wagon.

[ace5993]

I'll answer your question about BarryAllen archaebob.

I agree it's time to go past RVS time and sooo....

UNVOTE

Now, I'll...

VOTE: jilynne1991 For continuing to give LOL/RVS reasons for a vote after we have clearly gone past RVS time.

Wagon vote.

Has anyone heard from our aquatic player (Deuxieme Octopus)? We all seem to be here except for one. In the meantime, I really want to hear from jilynne...

maybe it's a time zone issue but we are at L-2 and don't seem to see a defense.

This is scummy:

1. Posting without any content is always scummy.
2. It had been less than 4 hours since jilynne was at L-2 at that point; the bolded part really just screams lynch-happy.

Unvote, Vote: BarryAllen

Content please.

In other news cases based around D1 rolefishing are almost always terrible. I don't like Pine's play so far

at all

.

[ace5993]

What archaebob is doing right now is dictating the game completely. Almost every post since page 4 has been directly related to archaebob's comments or questions. He isn't trying to generate discussion, he's trying to control it and lead the town to a mislynch D1.

@ hiplop - It's counterproductive for me to explain what I'm doing right now. I recognize this is slightly hypocritical, and I don't expect you to trust me just yet. However, I do expect you to recognize that even if I'm scum, what I've done so far is pro-town, and that there are better things for you to do than fuck up my process right now. I'll explain before the day is over. Ok?

Can't really be counterproductive, the only thing that's beneficial for town to be secretive about for long periods of time is reaction testing, and we're well past the stage of the game where that's the best tactic. What you did at the beginning of the game was pro-town, with nice reaction testing and discussion generating. However now the reaction testing is largely irrelevant and discussion is going in full force; continuing your tactics is highly anti-town at best. I'm going to guess you'll keep doing this until you've appeared to generate some discussion about everyone, or at least most of the game, then "explain" your techniques in some bs way, choose someone for the lynch and wait for everyone else to sheep you. I don't think there's anything better for me to do than to attempt to fuck up your process right now.

Unvote, Vote: archaebob

Also BarryAllen's last post was also horrible, so I think we've got two scumz right here. Archaebob over BarryAllen for now since bob's a bigger threat.

[ace5993]

Up to the dashed line is responding to stuff before archaebob revealed what he was doing, so any opinions there are based upon the fact that post #199 hadn't happened yet. I'm also just answering questions directed at me up until the dashed line.

@ Ace -

And how exactly does one "pick" somebody for a lynch? If I can't make a persuasive argument, no one will sheep me. Your entire stance is based on the false premise that my refusing to answer questions and "dictating" to the town will somehow give me a hold on everyone's opinion.

What I'm saying is that given enough pressure, everybody can say something that could be twisted into a scumtell. By directing the flow of conversation to different people you can control who gets more of an opportunity to make a "scumtell".

There are lot of players right now who are doing

nothing

to help the town. Some have hardly posted at all. You don't like that I don't make myself transparent. I get you. But if I'm scum, I've committed myself to an active post rate and a promise for satisfactory explanations later. What has the rest of the town committed to?

You're posting a lot yes, but look at your posts in ISO. In posts 1-28 you didn't post an opinion on anyone except jilynne. You sure asked a lot of questions but never actually posted an opinion.

Ace, I'm also curious to hear what you think about Giitah's mcSheepful vote onto me.

It's not great but not overly scummy.

@nintendoaddict

- /facepalm

@Heliman

- I don't object to reaction testing per se, I just object to it when that's the only thing you're doing and it's appearing to stall the game.

Is no one bothered by the fact that jil has now failed to address this question three times?

After the line (spoiler - no).

Please let me point out to the 10th player out of 13 players to join the thread (that's you, Ace) that I was the

second

vote on jillyne out of what was eventually as many as 5 votes. I stated my reasons at the time and never heard a defense, so I asked for more info. That later post is what Ace used to claim I was BWing jillyne. That's not bandwagoning, that's playing the game. As far as bandwagoning...let's look at your own earlier post, Ace...

I like the jilynne wagon

but can't post in bold from my phone, incoming vote in like two hours barring significant developments.

I realize this is just D1 and great cases are hard to find. But, Ace seems to be throwing accusations without really reading the thread well. Ace doesn't even seem to recall his own earlier stands when throwing around votes. Hopefully that will change as we move forward, but it does bear further watching as we move through the round.

For the wagon vote, I didn't dislike the wagon vote because you were on the wagon, I didn't like the post because you felt the need to restate exactly what Heliman had said in different words. It felt like you were trying to make it look like you actually made up reasoning. Of course you could have just been clarifying that Heliman's reason was why you were voting, that's just what it felt like to me. The main reason I quoted that post was to show that it was a wagon vote; you didn't spearhead the case.

However, your second (non-RVS) post is the one I had more issue with:

maybe it's a time zone issue but we are at L-2 and don't seem to see a defense.

I don't see why you would post this less than 4 hours since she was at L-2. It seems like you're either trying to make Jil look scummier than she is or look way too hard for something to post just for the sake of making a post.

Now let's analyze this recent post:

1. Only content is replying to my vote on you.
2. Overly defensive.
3. Last part of the post is slightly OMGUS-y.

For your next post:

Top 3 scum reads and why (I also have no idea why archaebob doesn't like this question and I also don't care).

Also yes I supported the Jil wagon at that time, it didn't have great reasoning behind it (what case on page 3 does?) but I figured I may as well add to the pressure to get a bigger reaction. There was absolutely no reason for anyone

not

to support that wagon at that time.
-------------------------------------------------------------
Post #199 - while I no longer think bob is scum I also facepalmed pretty damn hard.

Unvote,

Vote: BarryAllen

again for now.

The new case on Jil:

Why are you defending her? Let her respond by herself without being fed good defenses by you.

Sorry but I'm just going to save time and shoot the case down myself so we don't waste another 10 pages on it.

Let's start throwing around the Idiot Ball.

FoS: archaebob and Heliman

for jumping on the bandwagon. ^^

FoS on gilitah for possessing an idiot ball

This game...

Fos: hiplop

for spelling Giitah's name wrong.

These were four consecutive posts on the first page. Giitah FoS's two people. Hiplop FoS's giitah. Quoted nintendoaddict just because it was in there. Jilynne FoS's hiplop. Get it? It was a chain of FoS's. One person FoS'd, so the next person FoS'd that person for whatever RVS reason, then the next person FoS'd that person for another RVS reason.

Did you even read the FoS in context or were you just looking at the ISO? This isn't a case of softer treatment or whatever you said the case was, it's a case of the flow during RVS. An FoS was more natural than a vote at this moment.

As for the other post of hers you quoted - this is a more valid point, however the fact that it was answering a question rather than a spontaneously made up case on hiplop dampens the argument. She may find hiplop scummy but not the scummiest player in the game, or simply not scummy enough to warrant a vote. Not voting for anyone isn't always a scumtell, despite what those with more aggressive playstyles may think.

Apologies if I spoiled your big plan to get more reactions out of Jil but honestly she's been at L-2 before, we got a reaction from that, and 8 pages later you are still going after her? I mean with that reasoning, seriously? At the beginning of your explanation post I figured you had some huge scumtell on Jil that we had all missed but honestly this is not a good case. Let's forget about it now shall we?

I thought there was stuff worth analyzing past there but on second glance I don't really see anything significant so meh. Re-reading the thread + properly reading pages 9-10 tomorrow, that'll do for now.

[ace5993]

And yes, it's anti-town to point that out in the first ten pages of a game. You are depriving the town of a reaction. If it's near deadline and a player is about to be mislynched because of a bad argument,

then

you can jump right in. Anybody with half a brain could see that the wagon on jil wasn't a lynch wagon.

How much more of a reaction did you want from her? Would each additional question posed to her at L-2 have had a more useful reaction? Did we need to go to L-1? You say you were scumhunting Jil but if your idea of scumhunting is tunneling on someone for 10 (you wanted more actually) pages, how are we going to scumhunt everyone?

@BarryAllen -

I'm beginning to think that my suspicions on you are merely quirks of your posting style so I'll

Unvote

. However could you please point where hiplop is swinging back and forth with his posts? I'm not seeing it.

As for my three reads:

Pine for reasons already stated by Bob, plus the rolefishing stuff.
Giitah, though before I expand on this I will ask - have you ever played mafia before on another site?
I also don't really have a third scum read anymore.

Vote: Pine

[ace5993]

DemonHybrid how can you have decent reads on Scumhunter, Octopus, and Spad? You shouldn't be advocating a policy lynch before you have a decent read on everybody.

Vote: Scumhunter

.

We wasted 10 pages on Jil, hopefully that won't happen with these wagons but having the wagons IS NECESSARY. We cannot finish day 1 with little to no information on a quarter of the playerlist.

@Giitah

- I was just wondering because it changes the way I look at some of your posts. I'll come back to that case after these wagons are done, assuming they get started.

Analyzing Heliman vs. bob later today, I'll return with some thoughts on that later.

[ace5993]

Unvote, vote: DeuxiemeOctopus

. Content later when I have time.

[ace5993]

Alright,

Unvote

. The case on Giitah was not nearly as strong as I thought it was, after like 2 hours of ISO'ing and looking at his posts in context he's become more and more town in my eyes. HOWEVER, while looking around his early posts another player has become more and more scum:

VOTE: Giitah

Way overreacting to someone skimming RVS and misunderstanding.

Oh hey! I'm already out of RVS. Thank god.

Don't understand this post at all.

Okay, I'll do that right away.

Vote: archaebob

Good boy.

VOTE: Giitah

Way overreacting to someone skimming RVS and misunderstanding.

Oh hey! I'm already out of RVS. Thank god.

Can you explain what you mean by your reason for this vote?

And I see you online posting in other games. Have we done something to deserve neglect?

The games that are nearer to deadline get priority when posting from my phone. Plus, this one is thus far boring.

My vote is quite adequately explained.

Jumping on typoes and misunderstandings is very scummy in my book.

Jily is an acceptable lynch on policy grounds if we move into a stalemate, but I find nothing she's done yet to be damning, just the mark of immaturity.

1.

I fail to see where this happened.

2. Already talking about a potential policy lynch? What? The last paragraph reads like everyone thinks we want to lynch Jil for some reason.

@pine: the wagon on jilynne is a pressure wagon not a lynch wagon.

I don't see how the above statement conflicts with my comment.

I post in bold from my phone all the time.

Why wouldn't you vote for Jil then? Oh that's right, you're voting Giitah based on reasons that don't actually make sense.

@archaebob: The only third party roles permitted in Normal games are Serial Killers. So no, you don't smell survivor or cultist.

FoS: archaebob

For the above. I'm not sure whether it's rolefishing, scum hunting the SK, or what. But it doesn't sit right with me.

Preview Edit: Okay, I have egg on my face. I went back to find the quote that caused me to vote for Giitah...and I fucked up with my vote. The person I meant to be voting for had overreacted AT GIITAH, not Giitah overreacting to someone else. Apparently, I fail.

This is the quote, and combined with my above suspicion, warrants a changing of my vote to where it was meant to be.

@ nintendoaddict -

What do you think the purpose of RVS is?

Reactions.

Exactly. Do you think you are likely to get a reaction from anyone if you tell the whole world that your vote is random?

The town starts off the game with

nothing

, and the rvs is designed to be a first step towards content generation. Believe it or not, even rvs votes contain tiny little pieces of alignment revealing content in them. It's not much, and it usually becomes unimportant later in the game, but it is

how the town starts figuring out who is who

.

By using a randomizer, you are preventing

any

content from seeping into your vote, and guaranteeing that your target will shrug you off without even one awkward incriminating sentence of defense.

Ok?

unvote vote Giitah

why the

FUCK

did you vote me!?!?!?!??!?!?!??!?!?!??!?!?!?!??!??!??!?!?!?

You obviously are buddies with nintendoaddict.

UNVOTE: Giitah
VOTE: archaebob

Thanks for making me dig that up, archaebob!

Giitah gets a token few Townpoints for calmly and rationally responding to my unwarranted accusation.

Oh so the vote on Giitah was a mistake. However the reason for voting Giitah in the first place - "Way overreacting to someone skimming RVS and misunderstanding", still doesn't make sense when applied to bob. I do think the vote on Giitah was an honest mistake - but it was a lazy scum mistake. He saw Bob's "reason" for voting Giitah, and thought at a glance it was a serious overreaction. I'm kind of floundering to make sense of the "misunderstanding" - it either didn't exist, or it was this post:

Ai ai, captain.

Unvote: nintendoaddict1

Vote: archaebob

Which means the misunderstanding was that supposedly Giitah thought bob wanted a wagon... on himself?

The other reason for the case - "Jumping on typoes and misunderstandings is very scummy in my book", also doesn't make sense when applied to either bob or Giitah in either context.

Ai ai, captain.

Unvote: nintendoaddict1

Vote: archaebob

I take it you disagree? Oh are you just defending your buddy?

This post "which came BEFORE bob's vote on Giitah", completely negates any possibility that bob was overreacting.

It's somewhat obvious Pine DID NOT read the thread properly before he started his case on bob, as all three reasons he gave were simply not true. The fact that he first messed up the names on the posts only further reinforces this. This is lazy scum trying to look town by posting some sort of a case. Moving on:

@archaebob: The only third party roles permitted in Normal games are Serial Killers. So no, you don't smell survivor or cultist.

FoS: archaebob

For the above. I'm not sure whether it's rolefishing, scum hunting the SK, or what. But it doesn't sit right with me.

Once again, lazy scum. Found someone mentioning roles and decided to base a case around it because rolefishing's possible the easiest thing to base a case around. AGAIN messed up the names, which isn't a scumtell in itself, but it does further the impression that Pine isn't really reading the thread at all.

Giitah gets a token few Townpoints for calmly and rationally responding to my unwarranted accusation.

Translation: "Let's make sure Giitah thinks I'm town." Also note that it's possible that Pine's case was originally meant to be on Giitah since it doesn't make a shred of sense either way, and he just changed it to bob because bob pointed out that the original case didn't make sense. I don't think this is true but it's an outside chance.

Holy crap, I really am just batting 1000 in this game.

FOS: Heliman

for what I said in 127. Vote stays on archaebob for now.

Not reading the thread properly.

@ Pine -

Do I get token town points for calmly responding to your unwarranted accusation?

No. And you get a few taken away for requesting them. Yes, I'm serious.

Not really sure how you thought bob was serious here but even so, this is the only post with any content at all that slightly leans scum. Everything else screams scum as loudly as it can.

Generally, the only people that start the game looking for third party roles are scum themselves.

Expanding on lazy case #2.

Care to explain, Ace? I haven't done any rolefishing at all.

Not reading.

Yeah, hunting SK on D1 has gotten me lynched as scum before

I imagine you were actively hunting for the serial killer though, not merely mentioning the chance of third-party roles in passing. Also I'll mention here that it didn't feel at all like Heliman was searching for a third party role at all, he was just pointing out that hiplop was playing very oddly.

I'll try to get a more thorough read later (I've only skimmed) but my suspicion of archaebob has not abated one iota. I don't see the "Townie reaction" to the wagon on him that others unvoted for, and attacking the remaining members of his wagon, especially someone on V/LA, doesn't help.

v Sig v

Except you never stated anything about being on that wagon for the reasons made in my post, you were on the wagon from the non-sensical case you made in RVS.

How about actually interacting with my continued accusations against you instead of just ignoring them? I find it hard to believe that in building your case against me, you did no re-reading, and my sig is plain as day there.

There are no continued accusations, there's three reasons you posted while we were barely out of RVS. None of them make sense. HOWEVER, it makes me wonder if the rolefishing case you posted on bob was only posted because you thought it

was

bob. I wouldn't be shocked after reading your other posts that it had slipped your mind that that point was really made on Heliman.

What's your case on me again, bob? Lurking (while on V/LA) and voting for you?

Lol, way to post content with a wagon on you (/sarcasm). If you can post two sentences you can post two more sentences and give an actual opinion on anything that's happened in the last 5 pages.

Your persistence against me while I'm on vacation speaks volumes about your ulterior motives.

He's hardly being persistent against you, he unvoted you when he learned you were V/LA and this is basically the only thing he's asked you since then:

While you are at it, name one thing you have done to help town, and your top scum suspect.

HOLY SHIT that's persistent. If you say you have limited access and are actually posting it's not unreasonable to ask questions that require one sentence answers.

My vote is on my chief suspect. It is 100% serious and going nowhere.

I don't think it's a coincidence you couldn't answer his first question.

I will be nice and not vote Pine until he is back from V/LA but I figured I would type this all out and get it out in the open so we can at least have some discussion on it.

In the meantime I will

Vote: DemonHybrid

for wanting to lynch Jil before hearing anything from the people who haven't posted yet, I may attempt to do a ISO/semi-PbP on him later but for now it's just a larger gut read on him than I have on anyone else. And hey, who knows what will come out of it, I'm happy with what came out of investigating Giitah >_>

[ace5993]

Do you mean DH? And who is Grallie? >_>

[ace5993]

9. ace5993: Lean Scum. I don't really understand your fos/unfos of Barry. I don't see anything in Barry's play to warrant such a change in opinion. Your fos on bob screams to me that you are scum scared of his influence this game. You said at the beginning of the day "We don't need a wagon every single time someone does something even the slightest bit scummy.
" and now you just said "We wasted 10 pages on Jil, hopefully that won't happen with these wagons but having the wagons IS NECESSARY." Such a contrast in your opinions on the need for wagons/pressuring people makes me go O.o. It would help me if you explained exactly which "quirks" in Barry's playing style changed your opinion on him.

First of all they were votes, not FoS's >_> There's a difference between wagoning active players who do something slightly scummy and wagoning players who aren't posting. If someone does something I consider a minor scumtell I don't feel the need to create a wagon on them, I simply bring up the post I had issue with and go from there. However I like wagons based on lurking/active lurking because then we force the (active) lurkers to post content. I did support the Jil wagon initially, based on the fact that she needed to get out of RVS since she hadn't posted content, I just don't like that we wasted 10 pages on it when all we really needed was to get her posting content. After about 3 pages or so it should have been obvious that any more pressuring was going to be fruitless.

As for BarryAllen it's... difficult to put into words. Firstly his apparent misunderstanding/complete denial of the points I made on him looked more like obstinate town than scum. Then his later posts indicate that semi-tunneling is just a quirk of his playstyle. From the point of view of being really, really set on Jil for the moment he's more likely to make a comment like this (after such a short period of time):

In the meantime, I really want to hear from jilynne...maybe it's a time zone issue but we are at L-2 and don't seem to see a defense.

Okay, besides the fact that ace suddenly changed his posting style, going from one line posts to walls, there is something I need an answer on.

@ace:

In your post #11 you said 'content later when I have time' after you voted Deux. Did you mean content on your vote? Or content in general?

And like I said, your shift in content I find a bit unnerving.

Yeah I meant content in general. I figured it was obvious I was just on that wagon for the point of getting him to post.

I post however much I deem necessary on a post-to-post basis, whether it be walls, medium length posts, or short observation/question posts. I don't really see where the drastic change in content level came in, unless you are talking about the jump after the first few posts where it was RVS/just past RVS and there was not much to talk about.

[ace5993]

DH could you please explain how a serious vote implies that you think the person is scummy? Why have you switched your stance on bob's wagoning from "it's awesome scumhunting" to "if you dont think the person is scummy, you're scummy for wagoning them"?

[ace5993]

DH is town, we are not voting him. I am 95% sure that DH-scum would have loved to tunnel a policy vote on me today for our disagreements from last game.

I want to see your case on him Bob. Also, yea Pine is V/LA, we don't want to vig him or even consider voting him til he gets back and can contribute. That is reckless play.

I have to agree with DH with regards to jilynne. If the point of voting someone for pressure is to actually elicit a response you don't just GIVE UP when they aren't responding. You continue to pressure them until they either respond or lynched as bad town/scum.

I'm more than willing to vote jilynne if she doesn't want to contribute.

vote jilynne1991

Wait a second. You're saying to back off Pine because he's on V/LA yet at the same time voting Jilynne, who's getting replaced?

I'll look at the nintendo case later, however I still say we lynch Pine today unless someone literally claims scum.

[ace5993]

Oops yeah I thought Jil was getting replaced for some reason, I'm not really sure why O_o

[ace5993]

on an aside, can someone quickly link me to a definition/define tunneling?

Tunneling is when you focus all your posts on one person for extended periods of time, mostly ignoring the rest of the game. It's like tunnel vision on a specific player, hence the name.

[ace5993]

I still haven't had time to go through it properly but in general nintendo is giving me a newb-town read rather than a scum read just based on that it

looks

like he's actively scumhunting, something newb-scum often have trouble with. I'd have to take a look at the meta contradiction points you brought up in context to really say anything about that. I will look at it more in depth later when I have time.

[ace5993]

Eh, even after a quick glance at his ISO I'm fairly convinced nintendo is town, however I'm more interested in what he has to say in his defense right now so I'll refrain from posting any sort of explanation for a little bit.

Scumhunter can you please explain how DH not voting you makes him any more town? I don't see the motivation for scum to blatantly push a revenge policy lynch D1.

[ace5993]

EBWOP: Scumhunter could you link to the game you mentioned in your #18? The one that makes DH want to policy lynch you.

DH wall incoming later tonight.

[ace5993]

Alright we'll do this one ScumHunter bulletpoint style:

1. DemonHybrid was (and still is) pushing a policy lynch on Jil for not being particularly useful to town even at a time when 3 players in the game had not posted yet. Advocating a policy lynch (well before the deadline) on someone when you don't have reads on every player is scummy no matter what.

1.5. DemonHybrid is trying to say that the policy lynch on Jil isn't actually a policy lynch. 90% of his case on Jil is for active lurking/"still no suspicions", however it's impossible to active lurk when the wagon IS ON YOU and everyone is focused on you. Her posting style was right at the center of everyone's attention, which means that she's simply not very good at the game, not taking the time to play properly (10+ games, yeah right), or completely oblivious to everything posted in the thread. The rest of the points are either minor, based on differences in mafia theory, or based on blatant misreading of Jil's posts (tempted to quote here but I said bulletproof, it's the "still being in RVS" point at the beginning of post #280). I can further expand on why Jil is town later if anyone wants more on it.

2. DemonHybrid did not support or even appear to understand the reasoning behind the wagons on ScumHunter and Octopus, and even attacked bob for them. When questioned he replies with complete bullshit that doesn't really answer the questions.

3. DH's early game case on hiplop was scummy:

a. Contrary to his absolute refusal to leave the Jil wagon when there were clearly other wagons to be made, he abandoned the hiplop wagon rather fast because his "vote was getting stale".
b. After he changed his vote he made what looks like a deliberate show of gradually winding down the case on hiplop based on somewhat weak answers to apparent misunderstandings, finally ending with a weak "hiplop has improved his content in the last couple pages".

In hindsight bulletpoint posts suck and I will not be making any in the future, however I spent a while writing this so I'll post it anyway. It should give you an overview of why DH is scummy anyway. I don't think he's the best candidate (probably #2) for today's lynch at the moment but he's certainly scummy enough to deserve a wagon while Pine's V/LA.

The only odd thing I find is that he promised to give us an analysis of the Heliman vs. Archaebob argument, which never did pop up ever again if I'm not mistaken.

I didn't find anything particularly scummy on either side and I didn't really want to waste a post explaining why I thought an argument was town vs town.

You didn't post a read on Pine.

Overall I find Giitah's list of town reads disappointing but not scummy, each read seems well-thought out and with non-C/P'd reasoning. I agree with hiplop that we need a list in order of scummiest to towniest for all those reads to really be helpful.

[ace5993]

Please ISO me in this game. Because I active lurked like a beast, had a ton of people pressuring me (including Fate, of all people) and STILL kept on active lurking.

You were actually trying to appear like you were posting game content though. Jil is not even trying to do so. Every single thing she's said past RVS has been in response to a question/not game related, that's not active lurking because there's no scum motivation behind doing so. Whatever you want to call her posts, it's terribly obvious that she isn't trying to actively lurk, she just isn't playing the game. I still don't buy your case on her AT ALL, I don't see anything other than you trying to take what is obviously a policy lynch on a disinterested/not capable of playing properly player and trying to turn it into a real case. THAT IS SCUMMY.

PREVIEW EDIT: +1 to everything foil said on the matter. Also I did post my thoughts on the nintendo case, as I said, I'm waiting for him to defend himself further before I post anything substantial, I'd advise anyone else who thinks he's town to do the same here.

[ace5993]

@BarryAllen post 339, page 13. My complete PbP on Pine explains his entire "case" on bob.

@Everyone - If foilist asks for an opinion on his walls give an opinion. Doesn't have to be long but some indication of where you stand on an issue is always nice.

[ace5993]

I don't think DH is lying about his claim.

That is a very solid case by bob. Its strength suggests ONLY one scum in {bob, DH}. I don't buy that as bussing at all, so a DH scum flip would more or less clear bob and vice versa.

Yes, I'm reversing my stance on bob. I only get tunnel vision like this when I'm wrong, and lately I've been seeing the Towniness and been plain stubborn.

Unvote
Vote: DemonHybrid

Do I even have to explain why this is scummy?

Read the case on Pine:

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... 0#p3138980

And give an opinion on it.

Pine's back from V/LA in 1 day and he's semi-posting in the meantime anyway so I don't see a reason to postpone this wagon any longer.

Unvote, Vote: Pine

[ace5993]

Incoming mason game theory post:

1. DH is town and outs his partner. We have two pretty much confirmed townies D1. Scum have two confirmed PRs (I consider mason a PR until there's only one left).

2. DH is scum and outs his "partner". We still have two (what appear to be) pretty much confirmed townies D1. Town gets suspicious when both are alive by D3 and lynches one - we then have a confirmed scum in his "partner".

3. DH is town and doesn't out his partner. If there's no CC we still have a confirmed townie, same as option 1. After DH dies, scum either CC the eventual mason claim or they don't. But look at it this way: we have two people claiming to be DH's partner, in the worst case scenario, we have one confirmed scum and a dead townie (essentially VT at this point). Good trade-off If no-one CCs the mason claim there's no problem.

4. DH is scum and doesn't out his partner. After DH doesn't die for a couple nights, town gets suspicious and make him claim. DH is then faced with the choice of either giving up or outing his scumbuddy in the chance that town will believe him.

Note how 3 is a much better option than 1, unless it happens in LyLo. If town-DH dies his partner needs to claim the day before LyLo just to prevent scenario 3 from actually being a bad scenario.

Now notice how both 2 and 4 are not too great for scum, making mason a terrible fakeclaim. Scum fakeclaiming mason are pretty much never going to out their "partner" for obvious reasons, but then it will be fairly obvious that they were lying about their claim once they survive the night a couple times. This makes mason one of the worst claims for scum D1, so the chance of DH being scum is tiny at this point.

For now, it is best to assume DH is town, which means he should NOT out his partner.

The only way scum can get away with fakeclaiming mason is for town to really not know how to handle the claim -preautionary measures that must be taken:

1. If DH is still alive after a little while we need an investigation/lynch on him.
2. DH's partner needs to claim the day before LyLo so scum can't effectively CC.

That's it. The only group that benefits in the long run from DH outing his partner are scum.

[ace5993]

You realize she is being replaced, right?

She's actually not but I want to know why we both thought that :p

[ace5993]

I agree with not lynching Pine until Wednesday, however my vote isn't moving.

[ace5993]

@ ace -

To what extent did you stop seriously looking at Barry Allen after deciding that he just had a weird meta? I know I kind of gave him a free pass, and if you did too, I'm asking you to look at him more closely now and reconsider.

I didn't give him a free pass at all, until I decided he was definitely town, then I stopped looking closely. He's town.

Not why I'm defending him, but I also agree with keeping Pine at L-2 but not going to L-1.

[ace5993]

Bob's now randomly flailing around because he's cocky as hell and is mad his DH case is almost certainly wrong. It's becoming more and more difficult to take your reads seriously because your posting style is so absurd at the moment. Calm down.

Still reading both bob and Heli as town atm.

[ace5993]

You know I'm not scum. You also know that whatever I think of you, I'm probably not wrong.

Knowing that I'm town, and that I have at least an 85% shot at correctly guessing your alignment from your first five posts, why on earth would you be worried about my opinion of you simply because I haven't taken steps to make it clear yet?

It's just wholly unnecessary statements like this that really grate my nerves, there's no reason to say stuff like this unless you're trying to intimidate foilist somehow, which in turn makes me believe that you don't actually have any sort of clear read on him at all. I could keep going with this but it's mainly playstyle and psychology and not too relevant at the moment so I won't

I think foilist is leaning town at the moment, and I'm a bit uncomfortable that you're asking everyone else about him while not offering an opinion on him yourself. This is why I asked you to stop, because what you're doing now is NOT productive in any way.

Basically the last page and a half or so was a catfight, I don't see any value in it.

[ace5993]

EBWOP:

@Bob - If there's some kind of history with you correctly guessing foilist in multiple games or something that I don't know about I take the cockiness part back but the comments were still somewhat unnecessary and everything else I said is still valid.

Basically I don't like how you started into this conversation just because foilist asked you why you weren't pressuring him; for the first time in the game it doesn't feel like you're scumhunting, and if your questions aren't tailored to a specific purpose as they have been in the past, it just looks like flailing to me.

P-EDIT: Foilist hit it on the head, your questions are more of an obligatory "oh yeah, here's some questions for you" rather than trying to accomplish anything.

Non-game-related: I hope you didn't take those comments as a personal attack, I was simply referring to the way your posts look to me at the moment. I don't like feeling like I've offended someone outside of gameplay, so I apologize if I have done so.

[ace5993]

You see, I haven't actually been able to follow more than tidbits and skimming. I'll be looking at this with nearly-fresh eyes, almost like a replacement.

"Please excuse all my scum-play, let's pretend it didn't happen and start fresh K?"

Did you seriously just attempt to invalidate the entire case on you by saying you weren't playing properly and want a second chance to look town?

[ace5993]

No, that's not what I said, meant, or implied.

Now that you mention it, though, 80% of the case against me amounts to a lack of content. While on vacation.

Did you actually read the case against you or did you just skim through it? About 90% of the case is from posts before you were on vacation and the other 10% comes from scumminess in what you

did

post while on vacation. Go deal with your other games, do whatever you have to there, the next post you make in here needs to be the first half of your "re-read" please, because this line of discussion isn't going to get us anywhere.

[ace5993]

90% from before I was on vacation? This thread started on the 10th, opened on the 12th, and I made THREE posts before going on vacation the night of the 13th.

So tell me, Ace. What in those three posts was so damning?

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... 0#p3138980

Read.

Also, your sig said you were on vacation starting on the 14th, and your first post in which you indicated you were on V/LA in this thread was on the 15th. You were quoting fine before then as well. It's all somewhat irrelevant anyway, as none of your case is based on lack of content, regardless of how long you were on vacation for.

If you're going to post the wall post it, I don't care how long it takes but just do it. No more fluff and avoiding the issue.

[ace5993]

You guys should not hammer Pine before deadline, just saying.

We're at a standstill and if Pine doesn't post his defense FAST, we won't have time to build up a different wagon. I think the noon tomorrow deadline for him to post something substantial is fair, there's not much more we can get out of today.

[ace5993]

Better suggestion:

Request Extension.

This works too.

[ace5993]

I'll be looking very closely at all the people who jumped ship to the BarryAllen wagon tomorrow, that's a hasty scum driven wagon for sure. Which makes me think that Pine is indeed a mafia roleblocker.

I think we should still lynch Pine today, scum fakeclaim PRs almost all the time D1 and claiming with no defense at all is scummy. I will not be changing my vote for today, we have less than 48 hours and we need to lynch someone.

[ace5993]

Lynching the claimed PR day 1 is bad play.

If this is a true statement no day 1 lynch would catch scum, only VTs. I don't buy the claim or the whole situation around it/the BA counterwagon. There are indeed some extremely scummy happenings around here

[ace5993]

Lynching the claimed PR day 1 is bad play.

If this is a true statement no day 1 lynch would catch scum, only VTs. I don't buy the claim or the whole situation around it/the BA counterwagon. There are indeed some extremely scummy happenings around here but realistically at this point we have two possible lynches, Pine or BA. There's simply not time for anything else. I've already posted my opinions on BarryAllen and the wagon on him; my vote stays on scum and it won't move.

P-EDIT: The full uncut version of the above post (dunno what happened there >_>).

[ace5993]

Fine I'll do some analysis now, nothing better to do. Three obvious scums now, which should be the entire team:

Pine is scum for reasons already stated.

I know I'm not done catching up yet, but I think I am confident enough for a Barry vote right now. He's just. So. Amazingly. SCUMMY.

VOTE: Barry

I find it hard to believe that you could place such a seemingly oblivious-to-current-events vote when we were at L-1 3 days before deadline. It's just bizarre. This is the only person out of the three that could conceivably not be scum, because there is a small chance that he really wasn't aware of the situation.

Archaebob, heliman, and to a lesser extent Barry Allen are town.

This is the first thing that foilist says about BA this game.

unvote

I'm not going to have an apathy lynch here. Replace out if you don't want to be invovled in the game and let us deal with your replacement.

Vote: Barry Allen

Valern has sparked my interest in you.

This is the second.

Lynching the claimed PR day 1 is bad play. If the scum don't off him tonight we can lynch him tomorrow. I suggest you read Barry Allen rather than foreshadowing your suspicions.

This is the third.

So it went from BA is mildly town (fine), to a hop off of an "apathy lynch" to vote BA because "Valern sparked my interested in you" (fine, still nothing scummy here), to "Lynching the claimed PR day 1 is bad play" and "I suggest you read Barry Allen". Wait what?

Let's break it down. First we aren't lynching Pine because it's an "apathy lynch", next think you know it's because he claimed PR. And why are you suggesting I read Barry Allen when all you're doing is latching on to Valern's case?

Oops.

[ace5993]

1+2 - Revealing different reasons in different posts is scummy. It's kind of like the old spreading out a role claim over several posts thing. It seems like you're coming up with reasons for your actions, rather than acting on your thoughts.

3) I haven't said why I'm voting Barry Allen yet. I said he sparked my interest, not that his reasons were my reasons.

Care to share?

[ace5993]

Ace, whos the third? you missed a quote tag or something

I can't say which one you missed however I'm sure if you re-read my post you'd find it yourself.

[ace5993]

DH are you aware that deadline is in NINE HOURS? BarryAllen I don't know if you're aware of this or not but you aren't voting anybody. Get it together guys, no lynch is a very real possibility right now.

[ace5993]

@Heliman feel like explaining why you're still on bob at this stage in the day? Everyone who posts today needs to either join one of the larger wagons or state why they would prefer a no lynch. And there'd better be a lot of posts in the next 8 hours.

[ace5993]

Rule 7: When a player has a majority of people voting for them, they will be lynched. Voting for no lynch for the day is also possible.

If no one gains a majority during a day, there will be no lynch for the day, and night will begin.

In case other people missed this.

[ace5993]

To clarify Heli's point a bit:

If there is a vig, you've got a target named foil.

No way town is sure enough about their reads to say something like this before the flip. There's no acknowledgement at all that Pine might possibly have been scum.

Vote: nintendoaddict1

Currently re-reading and re-analyzing foil and Valern based on the Pine town-flip.

[ace5993]

If bob is town, he knows who visited him last night, and they aren't a doctor. Just look at how adamant Bob was that BA absolutely

had

to be a tracker, followed by continued mentions that the person who targeted him was probably a doctor. I don't buy that. It's rather easy for BA as a mafia goon to fakeclaim tracker and a result this early, because no one is expecting a mass claim on day 2.

Now let's assuming BA is a tracker and isn't lying - we clearly don't have a jailkeeper since we already have a roleblocker, so what is the mystery role? Something less standard for sure, since nothing pops to the front of my mind. Bob is plainly against Barry revealing who this person is. BUT, Bob also supports a massclaim. This is a contradiction. If bob is telling the truth about his setup speculation he believes that the mass-claim will only out the person who visited him, and the second mason, essentially a VT. Everyone else will probably claim VT.

At this point I do believe either nintendo or BA is lying about their claim, however everyone is not considering that scum may have multiple PRs too. Claiming there's a "scum tracker" to balance everything out is near-sighted, there could easily be 2/3 scum with night actions, which also means that town could have another unclaimed PR. Note that mass-claim is a good way to out any remaining PRs if the scum-team is also highly powerful, but BA outing his tracker result wouldn't do that. I don't think it's likely that there are more PRs but I don't think it's completely out of the question.

I am against mass-claim at this point.

All this leads me to believe that bob is scum. The subtle contradictions are incredibly scummy for bob-town but they aren't contradictions for bob-scum. If bob is scum I don't believe BA is scum, scum wouldn't bus that hard D2 imo. Which makes nintendo scum. I'd personally rather a wagon on bob right now than nintendo since we've kind of had one already:

Unvote, Vote: archaebob

[ace5993]

@bob - Notice how I haven't posted since I last voted you? I haven't been on. I'm on vacation right now and can't post 24/7, sorry if that's an inconvenience.

I simply don't understand what's going on with this game right now. I've been racking my brain trying to think of a role that could possibly explain bob's actions but absolutely nothing comes to mind. To tell the truth I was originally suspecting a cult and was waiting to see if anything bob posted would help confirm/deny that but apparently cults aren't allowed in normal games. I can't think of any other role where the targetee would know that they've been targeted (aside from blocking roles).

This leads me to believe that the real explanation is that bob didn't actually get hit with a role like that and is just scum lying because he knows BA is a townie and thus his tracker report is true. HOWEVER, in the off chance that I'm blanking on something obvious, I will back off this case at least for now because I don't want to out another PR accidentally. So we have somewhat of a bob/BA/nintendo triangle here.

If bob is town, BA is scum and nintendo has to be town.

If bob is scum, BA is town and nintendo has to be scum.

So basically bob and nintendo are on the same side. I don't see any other possible situation.

Unvote

.

Ignoring all reads and looking at this from a completely neutral 50/50 of each lynch being scum:

If we go bob and he turns out to be town, we risk outing another PR. If we go BA, we risk losing our tracker, however if so we gain two confirmed scum. If we go nintendo, we risk losing our sensor, however if so we gain only one confirmed scum. Nintendo is out of the question for best lynch today by this method. If bob is town, BA has to be telling the truth about the tracker read, if bob is scum, BA isn't lying about his claim. I'm almost tempted to go with BA today because it gives us either two dead scum for a town tracker, or a dead scum tracker. However, BA is also the one out of the three I have the town read on. Also it's important to note that BA IS A CONFIRMED TRACKER. If bob is scum, BA is confirmed as town and thus not lying, if BA is scum, bob is town and thus isn't lying about BA being a tracker.

SINCE BA IS A TRACKER PART 2 implications of the mystery person who visited bob:

This means in the course of the BA lynch we reveal who the mystery PR is. Note that we don't get the role from this (could still be a regular role if bob is scum, which I think is more likely).

In the course of the bob lynch we get whatever info he has on the mystery person he has IF HE HAS ANY. IF BOB IS SCUM HE COULD AND PROBABLY IS LYING ABOUT KNOWING ANYTHING ABOUT THE TRACKER RESULT. Sorry for all caps, but I know not all of you will be reading this whole post.

In the course of the nintendo lynch we don't get any info on that.

I'm HIGHLY not enthusiastic about lynching either potential tracker BA or potential sensor nintendo.

@bob

- I've pretty much done a 180 on the outing the PR issue since the beginning of this post, you need to out... something, and fast. I don't see any negatives to this. If the BA lynch goes down today we're going to find out who it is anyway.

I will decide who is the best lynch for today after bob replies to this.

[ace5993]

Dammit foil did you even read my post? I implied that bob should out WHO targeted him if he knew, a softclaim would have been fine.

Unvote, Vote: BarryAllen

[ace5993]

What the hell is going on here? I can confirm I'm not a mason but bob's reasoning is HIGHLY flawed. Bob, if there was a massclaim, do you think that foil would want TWO OF THE SCUM TO CC THE REAL MASON. Especially when DH referred repeatedly to his "partner", CONFIRMING A TWO MAN MASON TEAM? That's completely absurd. The best explanation I can think of is what actually happened, he picked a VT in the hopes that when he was outed, he'd get a townie to fall with him, with the same sort of case you're presenting now. It just doesn't make sense for him to pick his scumbuddy.

Unvote, Vote: foilist13

[ace5993]

And ace is online right now.

I leave my windows open all the time, so it looks like I'm online when I'm not. I'm not always on this site even when I am on the computer. And anyway what do you want me to say bob? I defended myself against your bullshit argument, and we're lynching scum today. Let's try this again - your entire argument against me is that foilist didn't tell me the gambit. How can I post a logical defense against that? It's just nonsense. I don't know why foilist picked me as the "third mason". I'm somewhat lost here,

because the gambit itself doesn't make any sense in any context

. I don't really know if I can defend myself further than I have.

[ace5993]

@ ace -

Yeah maybe. I guess it's a little null.

Who do you think is scum?

Mainly still nintendo, who's way scummier than BA imo. BA/nintendo still aren't on the same side even considering foil is scum, although 814 is not relevant anymore because it assumed whoever targeted you was town. I still think the last post yesterday before the hammer was a HUGE slip from nintendo. I'm interested to see what nintendo comes up with for his sensor report tomorrow.

Aside from those two Giitah's play has been horrible today, all fluff questions/blending in to the crowd and no scumhunting. 830 in particular reads scum to me.

[ace5993]

Um yeah, not buying this. There's no way in hell nintendo's telling the truth. The role is so blatantly overpowered it's a joke. He has 1 scum "found" and cleared 5 people. On D3. No way. And scum not NK'ing nintendo because there's supposedly a DOCTOR?!? Not possible.

Vote: nintendoaddict1

[ace5993]

I'm voting nintendo because he's confirmed scum. Unlimited sensor is gamebreaking, I do not see how it could be balanced in any game. I don't see the value in lynching a townie here. I'm almost seeing BA as scum because if he's a tracker nintendo's claim should be even more ridiculous to him. I'm amazed how apathetic everyone is about today's lynch, I'd rather have an extra ML possible later when there aren't obvscum.

[ace5993]

I believe I already claimed but I'm vanilla. Proper post coming soon after re-read/analysis of some stuff.

[ace5993]

Yes I'm now on music camp until the 16th. I will try to post between now and then it's just that the time between posts will be longer. Still re-reading.

[ace5993]

Sorry guys I'm going to have to change that limited access to no access until the 16th. I thought I would have time to do stuff but it's just impossible.

[ace5993]

I'm baaaaacccckkkk

And the last scum is most likely:

Giitah:

Overall reaction to the Pine wagon is a little weird.

ISO #60 is odd because Giitah hadn't really posted anything to make me believe that he thought Pine was "really scummy".

ISO #63 may be retro-actively why, however the comment seems to have stemmed from a post made between ISO 60-63.

ISO #64 alludes to other reasons Pine might be scummy but he really hasn't given any reasons (unless you count way back at ISO #7). He seems to not be able to decide whether Pine is a super scummy or just the best lynch out of a few bad ones. Also at this point I'd like to note that there's no paragraph on Pine in Giitah's reads post (51).

DAY 2 ON:

ISO #68 isn't really scummy imo since it's a reasonable townie reaction to try to stop any wagon that builds up that fast but it's still worth mentioning that Giitah was the one who slowed down the wagon.

ISO #69 isn't town at all (I recall someone saying that earlier), it's just stating the obvious.

ISO #70-72 is questioning of nintendo that looks like an attempt to be town by latching onto the early suspicion, however in...

ISO #73 all the suspicion of nintendo evaporates. There's also a bizarre mention of 4-scum which I simply don't see town making.

ISO #74 is the inevitable backtrack. This looks like another weak attempt to be town by thinking that there might be 4 scum.

ISO #77 is not wanting to make an opinion on either wagon.

ISO #85 is MORE 4 mafia speculation. What? Also he doesn't jump onto the xvart wagon but also doesn't play aggressively against nintendo. This is passive scum active lurking.

All of his page 40 is horrible, as far as I'm concerned BA was pretty much confirmed town at that point from the last two claimed power roles being fakeclaims, yet Giitah lists him as a main suspect. Also it's worthwhile to note that scum were keeping BA alive because apparently they thought they could get him lynched. Post #995 is particularly scummy:

BA has been confirmed tracker since d2, why is he still alive?

lolololol... I forgot that piece of evidence. ^^

That's a scum argument, it doesn't actually make sense.

Page 41 is backing off as he realizes that he can't get BA lynched.

Unsurprisingly, BA dies.

ISO #107+116 is STILL ON THE THEORY THAT THERE ARE FOUR SCUM. The continued mentions of this are really, really bad.

Going for an apathy lynch in #119 this late in the game is bad.

Contradicts his Valern vote in #124

#126 is bad:

I can't see everyone's reads being so wrong on hiplop

Or, "I don't have an opinion but hiplop's way too hard of a lynch to pull off.

Overall Giitah has been asking too many somewhat irrelevant questions, having too few opinions, non-committal opinions at that, and generally just going with the flow while doing "subtle" little things to make him appear town (4 scum theory, little jabs at nintendo without ever following them up until the last second).

Vote: Giitah

Yes I'm aware that it's 3 votes to lynch, a 1 vote wagon is not dangerous in the slightest.

[ace5993]

I was planning on posting longer reads on everyone (like the Giitah post) but I didn't really have time earlier ehhhh. I think Valern was probably the worst possible lynch for today, you NEVER pull an apathy/deadline lynch on someone who's asked for replacement, we could have gotten a fresh opinion on the proceedings so far. I was planning to make longer posts on everyone but it appears there isn't time so just so I can get my reads out before the end of the day:

Giitah is obviously my #1 suspect.

Hiplop is possible scum, some of his posts particularly regarding the foil debacle deserve to be looked over very closely if it comes down to LyLo tomorrow. All you guys on the "hiplop is obvtown" wagon should look at exactly where hiplop placed his vote when. There are definitely a couple oddities in his play.

Scumhunter reads solid town to me, however don't rule anyone out etc.

[ace5993]

Dammit I need to re-read hiplop again. I'm still leaning Giitah right now but hiplop is hardly stain-free imo. Re-reading both one more time in case there's anything obvious I missed.

[ace5993]

@hiplop - During the entire foilist debacle why were you voting me instead of foilist?

[ace5993]

I agree with hiplop

Vote: Giitah

.

[ace5993]

My thoughts:

The were two things that flipped the game in scum's favor imo, one was just plain lucky, the other was more town's fault than anything we did:

1. Unlucky wagons D1.

Pine, DH, and BA all outed Day 1 was not a good start for town. Plus lynching the roleblocker day 1 pretty much tipped the game in our favor right from the start.

2. Poor handling of role claims by town.

Day 3 was just atrocious. If you know through common sense that one of the power roles is lying you don't just follow all the claimed PR's blindly. We were planning to have nintendo lynched that day and I even outlined why nintendo HAD to be scum but xvart was still lynched and we got an extra day. This was absolutely the biggest mistake town made, I honestly did not think we had a hope of winning after foil's gambit but nintendo actually made a really good play here, shifted town's attention away from me, and ended up getting us an extra day and perhaps even more importantly, an extra day + night cycle to forget why the foil situation was important. As insignificant as the day may have seemed, in my opinion town lost the game day 3.

After day 3 of course nintendo had to be lynched, which gave everyone more time to forget about foil. By that time the situation had somehow been twisted and WIFOM'd enough for the foil gambit to be a town tell on me. I have no idea why Valern was lynched but it was fine with me. hiplop and Giitah were arguing a bit during day 4 so I just set up the Giitah case day 4 and let then fight it out day 5. They both had tunnel vision at that point. I could have basically been doing anything in day 5. It's not that they were playing badly it was just the result of a long sequence of events starting in day 3.

As for scum play, foil's gambit was dumb but aside from that we were solid imo.