Mini 1183: Mafiamatical Mathia - Game over!

[Twistedspoon]

surely scum want the opposite of stalling anyaways

[Twistedspoon]

wicked is logged in now

If he doesn't post/claim/whatever then I'll satisfy you

[implosion]

I just realized that we pretty much need to let him claim before hammering him in case he claims to be the doctor. We'd lose not only him but his save if that was the case.

Also, plague's last post is very, very scummy - terrible thing to criticize someone for, and it just reeks of setting up a mislynch.

[Twistedspoon]

if wicked flips town I'm looking at plague

he's alawys been on the easiest wagons in my opinion and trying to end the day so soon without a claim has no town motivation. Only scum wanting to secure a mislynch

[theplague42]

I'm certainly not the only one wanting a hammer right now.

[Wickedestjr]

Thoughts coming up very soon...

[Wickedestjr]

Here are my thoughts... Remaining players (aside from myself) listed in order from most townish to most suspicious.

Juls

I think hammering Kalofer was a town move. Yes, she

could

have been bussing, but I have my doubts. If she was

really

scum interested in bussing/killing her scumbuddy, then post 106 doesn't make any sense also coming from her. She could have made post 106 and then later changed her mind and realized bussing was the optimal strategy, but her aggressive strategy has shown to be consistent. Despite being a terrible scumhunter, I have reason to believe she's actually trying (but I have no reason to explain why atm).

Read:

Town

implosion

He's another player that I thought was town yesterday. I actually got pretty strong town vibes from him, but that was

also

pretty much gut based. I

do

think that getting himself into that argument with Juls early on is something that might not have happened if he was scum. His play yesterday also seems a lot different from his play in Frogs Mafia 2 where he was scum (however, tbh, I haven't given a thorough read of any of his town games). In addition, the PoE he was using today looked townish as well. My only issue is how he

also

seems to have flown under the radar today.

Read:

Neutral/Town

Oopidstay

I called Kalofer and Oopidstay scum yesterday, but, at the time, I hadn't been considering or looking for connections. Looking at Kalofer's posts from yesterday, I'm actually starting to doubt Oopidstay is his scumbuddy.

Specifically, this was the post I looked at:

okkkkk...After that exchange I'm leaning town on oopid and juls. It looks most likely to me that Oopid is a townie gauging reactions through what is deemed as obviscum behaviour, juls is a townie responding as expected to that behaviour.
The whole subject you're debating about is WIFOM but I'm leaning towards the WIFOM that says oopid is town because I also don't think scum would bother attracting attention to themselves. Implosion I have as null/town because I again doubt that scum would rush to defend someone whether they be town or scum so soon after RVS.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Twistedspoon

I think oopid has a good enough reason to vote for you.

And what you later said about you bringing us out of RVS better be sarcasm.
Also FoS: Morthas, nice job pointing out to TS that we're out of RVS, now how about you actually do something instead of just sitting back? Also, is it me or do your avatars get worse and worse as you change them?

@Don, I don't think it would make a difference, being a random vote but I guess I can't really say so since I've only played town so far.

I have a lot of trouble seeing Kalofer blatantly follow their scumbuddy like this (see the bolded portion of the post). In addition,
Kalofer's reasons for thinking Oopidstay are town seem truthful. I also have trouble seeing Oopidstay's vote for DJ coming from scum. My only issue with him is how he seems to have flown under the radar today.

Read:

Neutral/Town

don_johnson

He was one of my top suspects at the beginning of the day, but his posting today for the most part has looked townish. His scumhunting looks genuine for the same reason why Juls scumhunting looks genuine to me. The only thing that bothers/annoys me at this point is how he is in such a rush to lynch me without letting me post my thoughts. I also don't like how he has ignored my questions.

Read:

Neutral/Town

Morthas

I remember thinking Morthas looked like town yesterday, but that was mostly a gut read. In addition, I think it's more likely that one of the neighbors in this game would be town rather than two scum. I've never seen a game with two scum neighbors from the same group. However, this point is weak if it

is

actually a possibility. Having said that, Morthas's summary of the QT discussion doesn't look fake.

Read:

Neutral/Town

theplague42

On day 1, he expressed suspicion of Twistedspoon and had his vote on him until day 1 ended. However, once the day began today, theplague42 has made no mention of Twistedspoon being scum. Why is that, theplague42? Also, two of his votes today have looked very opportunistic. His vote for Morthas was the L-1 vote and his vote for me two days ago put me at L-2. Having said that, the don_johnson vote looks townish. Not because of the target, but because theplaguescum had no reason to jump off that bandwagon and vote somebody else that had no other votes at the time.

Read:

Neutral/Scum

Twistedspoon

The first suspicious thing I noticed from Twistedspoon I explained in post 75. To summarize that post, I didn't like Twistedspoon's defense of his Oopidstay vote. Then, later today, I noticed an interesting inconsistency. He voted Juls in post 151 (or at least intended to, but corrected his mistake in the following post), but then later makes this post:

so don is either the bravest, boldest scum in the world for trying to lynch an 'obvtownie' or he finds a legitimate reason to be suspicious of Juls.
I believe the former

If don was scum I can't see him taking such a gamble by trying to start a Juls wagon. He was in Jul's good books too.
Don is town and suspects Juls. Simples

whether you agree with his suspicions of Juls or not is irrelevant. Suspecting Juls, the most ruthless (and obvtown according to oopid) player in this game would be a suicidal thing for scum to do.

in which he acts as though Juls is an obvtownie and voting her would be a brave move. Why, then, did Twistedspoon vote for Juls? Furthermore, I find it very strange how Twistedspoon voted Juls, unvoted, then voted the person Juls was voting as a result of her persuasion. It looks like he

knows

Juls is town.

Read:

Scum

So I'm going to

Vote: Twistedspoon

.

[Wickedestjr]

I refuse to claim until somebody explains how my defense is invalid. Saying you're not convinced without explaining why is just stupid. The case was crap to begin with: it revolves around me not explaining my scumreads. <-- That's not scummy... It's just an attempt to see how people react and see what people think about the reads without piggybacking my reasoning. I honestly feel like I'm playing in Road to Rome right now and I wanted to play in a Mini Normal. Either that, or you guys are just too stubborn to realize that the points are meaningless.

[implosion]

I still think it's plague :\

[implosion]

The point on TS is interesting, though. His interaction with kalofer is what makes me think he's more likely town right now.

[Wickedestjr]

His interaction with kalofer is what makes me think he's more likely town right now.

What, specifically, in their interaction makes you think their not scumbuddies? Note that Twistedspoon didn't express any suspicion of Kalofer until after a bandwagon formed. It could have easily been bussing.

[implosion]

Come to think of it, Twisted could be his usual townie self but I'm not in the mood of letting go of scummy actions which lack justification. I'll keep my vote where it is for now. Plague, you've clearly focused your attention on TS, so why no vote for him?

This post (page four) makes me think that TS is town as well. Kalofer doesn't strike me as the kind of person that would bus TS by asking townies to vote for him this early. It could, however, be a distancing attempt with plague - kind of distancing/coaching sort of, and telling him "hey, lets mislynch TS."

As for wicked, I may as well explain my day one townread on him. His reads post looks fine too, but the reason I've had a town read on him for most of the game is that his scumhunting looked genuine.

@implosion- which allignment do you enjoy the most: town or scum?

This post, for example, makes a lot of sense if wicked is town, and stuck out to me. The question makes sense directed to me - at least, I see it as an attempt to discern my play here as either similar to or different from my frogs 2 play, and whether that difference is indicative of me being town.

His kalofer vote (and other reactionary votes) also looked genuine to me.

P-edit: I listed one thing kalofer said above. And yes, his vote was late on the wagon - it was also the L-1 vote. The way in which he was pushing kalofer and myself before the vote was part of it as well.

[Wickedestjr]

I could easily see that as bussing, too.

This post, for example, makes a lot of sense if wicked is town, and stuck out to me. The question makes sense directed to me - at least, I see it as an attempt to discern my play here as either similar to or different from my frogs 2 play, and whether that difference is indicative of me being town.

Correct. And your answer is one reason why I'm leaning towards believing this is your town meta. You'll notice that I made a mention of your meta in my thoughts post.

[don_johnson]

I also don't like how he has ignored my questions.

which questions? these?:

DJ is there something wrong with my defense?

what exactly is your defense? that you didn't give reasons with your votes in order to get reactions? i don't see anything wrong with that. it doesn't change the fact that you didn't give reasons. also, my understanding of the case against you was that juls pointed out that your play read like an early bus gone wrong.

DJ, what harm does giving me some time to post my thoughts do?

i'm bored. no harm. it just means we all have to sit here waiting for you.

oh wait, those were the only two.

lynch this scum please.

claim your role if its going to make a difference.

[Wickedestjr]

it doesn't change the fact that you didn't give reasons.

Is this suspicious, though?

also, my understanding of the case against you was that juls pointed out that your play read like an early bus gone wrong.

I have yet to see anyone explain why.

oh wait, those were the only two.

lynch this scum please.

Where did I say that?

[don_johnson]

Yes.

Juls explained it.

You didn't. Please pay attention.

[Wickedestjr]

Why?

Where?

I am paying attention. Why'd you quote me saying something I didn't say?

[don_johnson]

Because it is.

When she posted her initial "case", I believe.

Because its funny. You called me out for "ignoring quesions" when there were onlu two innocuous questions to which you were referring.

[Wickedestjr]

Seriously?

Where? (links?)

I hardly see what is so funny about that. I asked you two questions. You ignored those questions. I said I didn't like how you were ignoring my questions. What is the problem?

[Wickedestjr]

I forgot to explain how there are two confirmed townies. Actually, come to think of it, there is only one confirmed townie, but there is another player who is very likely town.

The role that prevented the nightkill was either a protective role or a roleblocking role. If somebody is a pro-town roleblocking role, then that means they probably roleblocked the last scum (and it might be a good idea for them to claim in this case). If it was a protective role that prevented the nightkill then the person they protected is confirmed town, because if the player that claims to be the protective role is scum, then that means everybody else, including the protected player, is town. But if the protective role is town, then they are telling the truth that the person they protected is town. The protective role in this case is the very likely townie. Either that or they are scum who deliberately didn't kill so they could try to confirm theirself as town.

[Twistedspoon]

in which he acts as though Juls is an obvtownie and voting her would be a brave move. Why, then, did Twistedspoon vote for Juls? Furthermore, I find it very strange how Twistedspoon voted Juls, unvoted, then voted the person Juls was voting as a result of her persuasion. It looks like he

knows

Juls is town.

Read:

Scum

[/area]

way to mis rep

I was using their own logic, not mine when I called Juls obvtownie at that point. Back then I did not find Juls obvtownie myself.
But i was using their logic of Juls being regarded as obvtownie, not my own

and yes, Juls did persuade me

Still think plague might be scum though. His last post was rather 'Well they did it too'

VOTE: Plague

I'll vote wicked though if Juls will hammer just to make it more likely for plague scum should wicked flip town.

[Wickedestjr]

Also, ftr, I'm really quite frustrated with the game right now and not really enjoying it. I've been attacked before and that's no big deal. But when I try to defend myself and my defense isn't even considered, it's no fun. I'm trying to play to my win condition and get a scum lynched instead. I'm trying to defend myself. I'm trying to get you all to consider other options. But I get these kind of responses:

Not convinced. Can't help but notice a lack of claim in those posts. Good with anyone who wants to hammer.

Why [is not explaining my reads suspicious]?

Because it is.

Both of these responses argue that I'm wrong, but neither explain why. So what am I supposed to do? Should I just giveup and let you lynch me?

The case against me was originally because I didn't explain my two scumreads. I explained why I did this. Trying to see who agrees with my reads and why without giving out the answers immediately. Trying to see how the suspected players react. Trying to see how other players react. All pro-town motivations. Nothing that harms the town. And I

did

explain those scumreads and I

did

give my own reasoning. Has nobody here ever played with Thesp? He does this a lot as town and he's earned a scummy for his scumhunting ability. It's a good strategy.

Now don_johnson has said that my vote looked like an early bussing attempt gone wrong. He hasn't explained why, but he

has

insisted that Juls has explained why. But no. Juls hasn't explained this and nobody has. This was the post where Juls said my vote looked like bussing:

1) I am not scum
2) I didn't like his delay
3) I meant what I said, that information is gleaned from Night 1 and I am very happy we got scum regardless of how scummy it made me look. I knew it would come off scummy but I didn't really care because there was too much "I'll post soon" going on in this thread and it needed to be shaken up.
4) I still like Wicked and/or TS for scum. Vote: Wicked

Wicked was also first on the Kalofer wagon which may have caught him in a bus situation gone awry by my early hammer.

5) I like implosion alot more for his reaction to my hammer. He was first to ask why I didn't get a claim. The way I saw it, if Kalofer was a power role he would have been more interested in saving his neck and would have claimed in his "just a sec" post instead of saying "just as sec".

I agree the neighbor should claim if there is one.

Mod: Can you verify that a Neighbor is different than a Neighborizer to you. If he was a neighborizer there is no neighbor, if he was a neighbor then there is a town neighbor out there somewhere.

No explanation given here. How am I supposed to defend? Or should I just giveup?

It's not looking like I'll be able to save myself today due to some very stubborn townies (hint: Juls and DJ), but if and when I'm lynched the game

will

continue. And all that I ask is that you please don't continue playing this way. Creating a case on someone and then ignoring their defense. Trying to lynch somebody in five RL days. Voting players without completely explaining why. None of these are helpful strategies. Playing this way is both going to make the game no fun and it's probably going to lose the game for town.

[Twistedspoon]

I'm trying to play to my win condition and get a scum lynched instead.

contradiction

I'm not completely opposed to being lynched. I

have

been lacking activity-wise (and I'm expecting to be V/LA again in the future, but that is a problem that can be easily solved without lynching). And lynching me also means that we get to see at least two more awesome lynch scenes!

w/e

plague is my favourite lynch

his entrance onto my wagon and wicked's looked so much like he was trying to ride on the easiest.

Plague was also suspiciously absent from the Kalofer wagon too

If wicked flips town (which I think he will) then I'll know that plague was on the 2 easy townie wagons and not only the only scum wagon

I feel plague is scum.

[Hoppster]

Day 2, Votecount 10

theplague42 - 2

[L - 3]

(implosion, Twistedspoon)

Twistedspoon - 1

[L - 4]

(Wickedestjr)

Morthas - 0

[L - 5]

Juls - 0

[L - 5]

implosion - 0

[L - 5]

Wickedestjr - 3

[L - 2]

(don_johnson, theplague42, Oopidstay)

don_johnson - 0

[L - 5]

Oopidstay - 0

[L - 5]

No Lynch - 0

[L - 5]

Not Voting - 2 (Morthas, Juls)

Deadline: Friday June 24th at 15:30 BST

Time left:

(expired on 2011-06-24 10:30:00)

With 8 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Morthas is V/LA until the 17th.

[Wickedestjr]

way to mis rep

I was using their own logic, not mine when I called Juls obvtownie at that point. Back then I did not find Juls obvtownie myself.
But i was using their logic of Juls being regarded as obvtownie, not my own

Point retracted.

and yes, Juls did persuade me

I still find it strange that you would unvote Juls, somebody you suspected, and switch your vote to the person Juls was voting. Especially considering you apparently think I'm town. Do you still suspect Juls?