Dr Who - Game over

[Zang]

Incorrect sir. I made an analysis based on the information I have that points to his claim being legit. He brought setup speculation into it.

That analysis is at least partly speculation about why the doctor wouldn't have any abilities though. Although I also am guilty of setup speculation.

Second part is very, very bad. Outguessing the Mod is a perfectly viable tactic - hell, it's one of the main points of asking for a claim in the first place. You just have to be good at it.

No, it is never good to try to outguess the mod even if you are good at it, it always boils down to a bunch of WIFOM.

Tell me, Zang: Where exactly did Snake say that the word "Allons-y" appeared in his role PM? I didn't see any claim to that effect.

He didn't but he also never said that it didn't. I also said IF it was in his role, I never said it was.

It is, but last I checked scum claiming vanilla outside of massclaim was pretty rare, and that name claim IS probably the best possible name claim this game (unless one low-probability scenario turns out to be true, in which case it is the worst possible case).

But what if he claimed the Doctor knowing that it would counter his vanilla claim.

Also, Zang: Thoughts on Nexus please.

My thoughts on Nexus have changed between a light town read to a light scum read throughout the game. Currently, It's pretty neutral. If you want, I'll evaluate more later when I have more time.

It's a pity you had to be scum, Zang. Oh, well.

So I'm scum because I don't trust the claim of one of the scummiest people in the game?

As far as outguessing the mod -- one doesn't have to look back very far to find a companion who would be well suited to a power role.

But look at The Doctor, there are several suitable roles for him but assuming the Snake's claim is true, he has none. That's why the mod shouldn't be outguessed. On the other hand, if snake is scum then none of this matters.

[Surye]

You have no idea how much I am speculating and how much I am basing it on facts. And I have not spelled it out for a reason, but I believe his claim is more than likely true, and I stand behind everything I have said. And it is in towns best interest to drop this setup speculation now.

[The Rufflig]

Actually, Zang, it was your FoS on Surye that pushed me over the edge to vote for you, not the vote for Snake.

As for the other thing, I thought of it. If I decide to believe you and Snake flips town are you willing to let us lynch you next?

[Tarhalindur]

I'll answer Zang when I have more time, but for now:

1) In case you hadn't figured it out, GTFO Snake. Now.

2) Nexus is still scum, join the wagon or explain why you aren't.

3) Hey look, bv310 has enough time to set up his new Mini Theme. I don't see any bv310 posts here. He needs to rectify this soon, or we can safely conclude that he's active lurking and kill the scumbag (probably tomorrow, Nexus is still first on the list).

[iamausername]

Martha Jones M.D. is a perfect fit for a town doctor role, no? Or you could go Harry Sullivan for the town doctor as well. The Brigadier for a vigilante or investigative role. I didn't watch Torchwood, but Captain Jack for an investigative role?

I can think of a much better choice for an investigative role:



I mean, Martha did about as much actual doctoring as she did actual policework, so...

Anyway, Tar's case is totally pushing all my buttons, so

Unvote

VOTE: Nexus

[SnakePlissken]

Sorry Ive only been able to sporadically get on the site, due to off site IRL iussues pulling me away & i hadn't realised that i didn't revote Nexus. But I shall correct that now

Unvote

VOTE: Nexus

[jasonT1981]

@ Mod: Should pappums need replacement, would we recieve an extension of any sort?

Yes, However I am treating Rat as V/LA right now, if after 5 days he has not posted he will be replaced and deadline extended.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Incorrect sir. I made an analysis based on the information I have that points to his claim being legit. He brought setup speculation into it.

No I didn’t. I just didn’t blindly jump to the conclusion that the 10th Doctor must be Town / not a fake-claim based on the evidence I have (Snake’s play in thread and my role-PM).

--

Second part is very, very bad. Outguessing the Mod is a perfectly viable tactic - hell, it's one of the main points of asking for a claim in the first place. You just have to be good at it.

I disagree in that outguessing the Mod is just as likely a road to disaster as it is a good tactic. That said this is just game-play theory so I don’t think it is worth any more discussion.

Also, thoughts on Nexus please.

I’m going to have to look at him in ISO later on today. First impressions have been that his early interactions were Town oriented, and that Snake’s early meta attack on him was bad.

1) In case you hadn't figured it out, GTFO Snake. Now.

2) Nexus is still scum, join the wagon or explain why you aren't.

1. Snake hardly has enough votes where this kind of statement is warranted.
2. Am I right in that the crux of your ‘Nexus is scum’ germinated from his Snake claim reaction?

--

What is so hard about it? Ok. Just theme games? The Prisoner (mini #1099) and The Walking Dead (mini #1123). That was easy. Anything else? I've seen the concept of a mod subverting flavor material in Aqua Teen Hunger Force -- but truthfully that was a bastard mod game (and I didn't play in it).

Ok, since you have a fairly limited experience in Theme games I’m going down my list of games to show you examples of Theme games where Mods have specifically subverted flavor with Fake-claims or Roles:

Kingdom of Loathing Mafia – If you don’t know this game it is a quasi-MMO where players can select one of 6 classes in an attempt to beat the bad guys. Nik chose two of those classes (Pastamancer and Accordian Thief, undoubtedly Heroes in source flavor) as Mafia members along with more traditional ‘villians’. Additionally a number of Town roles were enemies from the game you must defeat.

Disgaea 2 Mafia – I don’t know much about the source material but my research into my role indicated that Prizm Red was a game enemy.

Supernatural Mafia – Farside made Sam Winchester, one of the Two main heroes of the series, a Mafia Traitor while being a Neighbor with Dean.

Harry Potter Mafia – Dumbledore was a fake-claim given to the Mafia to use.

Reboot Mafia – The Mafia consisted of Megabyte, Dot ( a major protagonist) and Little Enzo (also a major protagonist).

Lost Season 1 – The Mafia contained Jack (the show’s Major protagonist) and Claire (in Season 1 very innocent).

Lost Season 2 – The Mafia consisted of Mr. Eko and Locke, both of whom would be strongly considered heroes at that stage of the Series.

That’s a sampling of the kind of things I am talking about. This leaves out games where it is specifically stated that flavor is reversed (Andy’s Mini Lord of the Rings Theme or Seinfeld Mafia) or games with mixed flavor where the Mod has specifically avoided using villains (Jason’s recently ended Superhero Mafia).

TL – DR Summary

– Wiping out Snake’s scummy play because he claimed David Tennant’s 10th Doctor is Mod WIFOMing. He's obviously not going to be lynched today but I am NOT giving him a "100% Town read" just based on his claim.

[The Rufflig]

Ok, so I took a quick look over Superheroes Mafia and X-Files (also run by our mod). Superhero mafia started with the premise that some of the superheroes had turned evil, I don't believe that applies here. In X-Files, our mod did indeed provide fake claims to the scum, but they weren't major characters.

Here is the thing that really bugs me, though. All of you who find Snake's claim scummy are arguing that the mod has done something sneaky by mixing up alignments of roles or given out major character fake claims. Ok, fine. But you don't know that the mod has done that. Therefore your whole case is based around an unproven assumption that quite well could be false. In fact, I don't see that there is a single claim that snake could give that you couldn't find scummy under your assumptions, therefore you can't count Snake's claim as part of your Snake is scum cases - well, not if your being honest, anyhow. The only thing Snake's claim could be is a null tell under the assumptions that you guys are presenting to us.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Here is the thing that really bugs me, though. All of you who find Snake's claim scummy are arguing that the mod has done something sneaky by mixing up alignments of roles or given out major character fake claims. Ok, fine. But you don't know that the mod has done that. Therefore your whole case is based around an unproven assumption that quite well could be false. In fact, I don't see that there is a single claim that snake could give that you couldn't find scummy under your assumptions, therefore you can't count Snake's claim as part of your Snake is scum cases - well, not if your being honest, anyhow. The only thing Snake's claim could be is a null tell under the assumptions that you guys are presenting to us.

You aren't follow along with the thought process clearly. Let me explain in as bold terms as I can.

I don't find the claim itself scummy. I don't find it convincingly Town either.

Snake has played in a scummy manner. He's claimed a VT role, which is unproveable. I will not wipe away what I feel is his scummy play because he claimed a VT role with a 'Big Name'. He gets the same read from me he did pre-claim - scummy.

I take issue with anyone who says "Aha, a 10th Doctor VT Claim, Snake must be Town" because of the WIFOM involved (that I've painstakingly detailed). He could be just as he claimed. He could be scum who has the 10th Doctor as a fake-claim. He could be the 10th Doctor who is scum, not Town. Until I get more data than I currently possess (in the form of flips) I'm not going to play Outguess the Mod.

His role is unproveable on its own (he can't demostrate it) and thus I'm not going to let it influence my judgement on his slot. If his votes, actions and postings in the future (since he isn't getting lynched today) show me Town then I'll read him as Town for those reasons, not for his VT Doctor claim.

[The Rufflig]

Then let me be a bit more clear myself, MagnaofIllusion. Your vote is not on Snake. Why are you arguing so hard that we shouldn't put any credibility in Snake's claim? It's almost like you're trying to get him lynched without actually being on his wagon.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Your vote is not on Snake. Why are you arguing so hard that we shouldn't put any credibility in Snake's claim? It's almost like you're trying to get him lynched without actually being on his wagon.

Read back in the game to right before Snake's claim.

I've stated he was one of four players I support for lynch today.

My vote can't be on all four.

--

Still going to be looking at Nexus via ISO ...

[The Rufflig]

Speaking of Nexus, I believe Snake put him at L-2. Nexus is now our largest wagon.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Review of Nexus’s ISO

–

His ‘RVS’ vote creates the ‘counter-wagon’ on Surye after the early votes on Zang.

Calls out Ant, Surye and Pappums for more or less ignoring the flash RVS wagon on Zang and the tiny counter on Surye. But then says it isn’t necessarily scummy behavior but stupid while keeping his vote on Surye.

Specifically states he didn’t want to put Zang at L-1 so early in the game. I don’t necessarily think there is anything wrong with that stance but it may have some application regarding Nexus’s alignement when Zang’s alignment is known.

By ISO 8 he is asking why Surye doesn’t have more votes. His only reason for keeping his initial coutner-wagon vote on Surye is that Surye ignored both early wagons. He had not provide anything else. This was at post 93. By that time Surye had 8 posts himself. I would have thought if Nexus actively found Surye scummy he would have expanded on his vote by questioning / bringing more suspect Surye actions to light.

Nexus then begins a series of ISOs where he jousts back and forth with Snake about Snake’s “Nexus is Meta-scum” that culminates in a self-admitted OMGUS and accusations that Snake is scummy for purposefully ‘not participating’ Day 1

He calls Tar’s fake-Daykill lame and continues back and forth with Snake calling him scummy in a series of 1 line posts.

In ISO 18 immediately tells Surye (incorrectly, since Surye was at L-2) that he will hammer him if he doesn’t claim. This is the post I noted where he claimed Snake wasn’t going to be lynched even though Snake was actually the leading wagon. A series of fairly content free posts about his proffered hammer follow this.

Brings up the point that Allons-y is mis-spelled in ISO 25, but then says it is irrelevant since Snake is scum.

At ISO 27 makes a pretty back analysis where he says that Vanilla claims as scum aren’t risky and that there is too high a risk of a Counterclaim. Of course this makes no sense since one of the main points of a scum fake-claiming a Power-role under pressure is to pull out a claim from Town.

--

Overall – I like Nexus’s input on the early action revolving around the Zang wagon and those who didn’t pay attention to it. His play since about ISO 8 has more or less been characterized as having no scum-hunting and being full of defensive or fluffy posts.

He hasn’t made anything of a case on Snake (other than “You are scum since you are throwing fake meta around), Surye or any of his other votes. He has more post than BV but I’m not sure that BV doesn’t have more actual scum-hunting.

UNVOTE: Surye

VOTE: Nexus

This, by my calculation should be L-1.

[Nexus]

Do you want a claim?

[Surye]

Do you want a claim?

You are at L-1.

[Nexus]

Well, yes, but is there someone willing to hammer? Or is the wagon just going to disintegrate?

[jasonT1981]

Day 1 Vote Count 8

Nexus 6: Tarh,Surye,Hoppster, Username, Snake, MOI (Lynch - 1)
Snake 4: Rat, Nexus, Cogito, Zang (Lynch -3)
Surye 1: BV3
Zang 1: ruffling


With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch with a deadline set at 22nd June at 10am EST..

[Surye]

Well, yes, but is there someone willing to hammer? Or is the wagon just going to disintegrate?

Scummy dismissal of the wagon, without addressing any of the reasons people are on it.

[bv310]

Sorry, surprise funeral today. I'll have time for this game tomorrow.

[Nexus]

Well, yes, but is there someone willing to hammer? Or is the wagon just going to disintegrate?

Scummy dismissal of the wagon, without addressing any of the reasons people are on it.

Well as I think most of the reasons stem from a disagreement in meta, in that I think scum will most likely claim VT (oh the irony, how it's going to hamstring me), and my staunch refusal to believe that Snake isn't scum and that his simple VT claim is enough to get people to back off, I think my wagon is as scummy as shit. Definitely scum driven with at least one or two members on there: Surye and Snake probably.

Wilfred Mott-Vanilla Town. I enjoy stargazing and am related to Donna.

Mmm, delicious irony and wine.

[Nexus]

Also, mod, VC error. Snake can't be voting me and CES.

If he's voting CES and I've been forced to prematurely claim, I'm going to be fucking pissed off.

Mod: My bad, forgot to delete the other vote, dosed up on powerful sedatives this evening.

[Nexus]

EBWOP Checked it, he is indeed voting me. Still, a little bit of accuracy in the VCs would be nice.

Like my threaten to hammer Surye, I'm pretty sure according to the original VC, he was at L-1.

Mod

21]

I'm human, I make mistakes.

Feel free to point out mistakes with small things such as the votecount in thread. If you have issues with the game on a bigger level then please PM me

[Zang]

You have no idea how much I am speculating and how much I am basing it on facts. And I have not spelled it out for a reason, but I believe his claim is more than likely true, and I stand behind everything I have said. And it is in towns best interest to drop this setup speculation now.

So why didn't you say that when Magna asked instead of redirecting the blame on him?

Actually, Zang, it was your FoS on Surye that pushed me over the edge to vote for you, not the vote for Snake.

Why? Surye did something that I saw as very scummy.

As for the other thing, I thought of it. If I decide to believe you and Snake flips town are you willing to let us lynch you next?

Snake is currently my biggest scum read so I would be willing to sacrifice myself if it means that you'll lynch him.

1) In case you hadn't figured it out, GTFO Snake. Now.

Why? I think he is scum so I'm voting for him.

2) Nexus is still scum, join the wagon or explain why you aren't.

I'm voting for who I think is scum not who you think is scum.

3) Hey look, bv310 has enough time to set up his new Mini Theme. I don't see any bv310 posts here.

Shouldn't modding a mini theme game take priority over playing in one?

I can think of a much better choice for an investigative role:



I mean, Martha did about as much actual doctoring as she did actual policework, so...

Actually this makes me think. What if there are more than one doctors such as the newest doctor in this game then it would make more sense if the 10th doctor is scum or a fake claim. Especially, sense it was specified that he was the tenth doctor instead of just the doctor.

Here is the thing that really bugs me, though. All of you who find Snake's claim scummy are arguing that the mod has done something sneaky by mixing up alignments of roles or given out major character fake claims.

I don't find snake's claim that scummy and normally I would tend to believe it as neutral. However, Snake was very scummy earlier in the game and I don't believe his claim should clear him of that.

Well, yes, but is there someone willing to hammer? Or is the wagon just going to disintegrate?

[/quote]

It can't disintegrate until you give them a reason to and refusing to claim won't. You shouldn't need to ask if you should claim at L-1.

[The Rufflig]

Why? Surye did something that I saw as very scummy.

Did you miss the part where Surye spoke up about Snake's claim? Even Nexus pointed it out.

Shouldn't modding a mini theme game take priority over playing in one?

Not the point. The point is it has been a week and a half since anything other than an excuse or apology for not playing has come from bv310. If he doesn't have the time to play, he should replace out. The other option is that he is purposefully lurking and is therefore scum who should be lynched.

Snake is currently my biggest scum read so I would be willing to sacrifice myself if it means that you'll lynch him.

Grah! You drive me crazy, Zang. Everytime I think we're on the same page you say something that makes me think we aren't. I don't think we are talking about the same thing anymore; so, no.