Mini 1193: Hacker's Panic mafia. (Game Over)

[xvart]

/confirm.

[xvart]

HE ADDED A PERIOD.

THE DOUCHE.

XVART IS CONFIRMED SCUM.

You mean

pretentious

douche. I can't wait for the starting gun so we can dance.

[xvart]

Hydras and new to site players are fine with me.

[xvart]

vote: kondi

policy lynching it up in this
bobsnox, I promise not to kill you tonight.

What's the policy?

I love a good Parama wagon.

VOTE: Parama

[xvart]

you don't really have one so I'll just take note and move on for now, another vote on para should add some fireworks

vote para

This is scummy. Taking note? Do you believe it or not? Is he lying or not? Is it a scumtell or not? From what I've seen so far it appears that this would be a justified reason to keep you vote at this stage in the game yet you go for fireworks?

see I knew my vote would get some discussion going,m mission accomplished.

I don't buy this.

beck wagon is good. he has no sense of humor.

don is partners with Beck.

VOTE: Beck

Parama's reaction and follow up to his wagon is town in my eyes.

[xvart]

I'm here. Been busy with Alumni Weekend and another game. Will have posted by tonight.

[xvart]

OSV in a 13p?
pssh. all that would do is waste a lynch for the town. I see no reason to change my vote.

This really strikes me as strange. I don't think I've personally ever seen a full shot vig in a mini normal I've played but I have seen even/odd night vigs and a one shot vig is less shots than those so I don't really get the implication that a one shot vig in a mini normal is unbalanced or soooo unlikely. In fact, wasn't some of the justification for having the mini limit increase to a player base of 13 to incorporate a vig to increase town chances of winning? This just seems like an off the cuff reason to power through the lynch with no substantive base in reality. Based on your opinion do you think a full vig or an even/odd vig is even less likely than a full vig in a mini normal?

vote: Hrezs

since there's two more scum, and Hrezs is one of them.

Hows this work again? I came back to read the game and the thread was closed.
Also you just called

3

people scum, and said

2

more scum left?
Sounds like a scumslip.

Vote: Parama

BWAHAHAHAHA

There are 2 more scum left besides confscum CooLskins. Nice outrageous misrep there. I'm going to go ahead and say that you're confscum too.

I actually don't think this is a misrep as much as misinterpretation. Your original post isn't exactly a shining example of clarity.

I also agree that not voting CooLskins is very telling and in the end is what is making me put my vote on Parama. I think the first two could be attributed to Parama as town or scum due to his erratic play and forceful personality, but this lack of vote really looks to me to be one of those examples where it's one of his reads he throws out there amongst all the other reads, connections, and percentages to fall back on later. However, this cannot be fully tested without CooLskins flipping scum first; but the fact that Parama isn't voting someone that is confirmed scum is a huge scumtell regardless of the other players alignment.

VOTE: Parama

I also don't have anything concrete (mostly just gut) but while we're throwing out complete scum team reads I would say CooLskins, don, and Parama.

[xvart]

It is true. We are neighbors. I've been racking my brain for the life of me about our moderator and his opinions on neighbors since we were in a game together a while back and there were two town neighbors but Humble didn't say anything definitive about neighbors and alignments other than alignments are unknown. don did not talk in the neighbor QT at all pre game.

don didn't say anything pre game in the neighbor QT which I thought was... not damning evidence of him being scum but not scoring any town points, and I really started suspecting him as scum neighbor on his beck wagon support but no vote, when I tied him to Beck. I almost came out right there and claimed neighbor since don hadn't done anything at all except that scummy post but I thought better of it. Last night, don was absent until over halfway through night. My first post of the night was asking him who he thought was scum because he had provided no reads at all D1. I was hoping to draw out something and see what he did at the beginning of the next day and then claim what I knew if it contradicted what he said during the night. I then sent a "you there?" type post and then followed up with more friendly banter post in case he was scum and relayed his information to his team and I got NKed without claiming him as my neighbor. My post was basically how I thought his crumb, although obvious, was clever and asked him if he was worried about scum picking up on it. On D1 I was thinking it was obvious and was curious why he wasn't so concerned with scum picking up on it.

He finally posted in the neighbor QT with how scum might use that knowledge to their benefit (??) but he believe it to be better play for neighbors to be more public than private (paraphrased). He also said he wasn't reading carefully during D1 so he was going to reread if he survived the night. This struck me as really odd since I saw him as no threat to being a NK. I asked him if he thought he was likely to be killed during the night. He responded that he hoped not, then said there had to be scum in the final few people on the wagon.

Now that I had a weak set of suspects from him I was waiting to see who he voted for at the start of D2. He came out and immediately voted the hammerer for a very specific reason; so what I don't understand is why he didn't tell me that last night.

The other thing that concerns me is that he so quickly claimed neighbor today when I put him in a very loose scum group pairing and he didn't do the same yesterday when I did the same thing. The only thing I can see is that it is possible he knew that Beck wasn't scum so wasn't worried about that claim going through but maybe it struck a chord with my pairing and someone (or both) of his team being mentioned.

I have never played with don (to my recollection) but from this game I don't see him as a player who would place a breadcrumb like he did so I'm guessing, if he is scum, he was prompted to do so in the scum QT pre-game.

I didn't but out with this information because a lot of it is circumstantial and I didn't want to prematurely claim and was hoping I could draw out some more in subsequent nights.

don - can you show a game where you have breadcrumbed your role before? And weren't you V/LA until the 27th?

[xvart]

Also, why is someone so quick to breadcrumb neighbor when he didn't even use the neighbor QT?

[xvart]

If I was scum, breadcrumbing would be virtual suicide as an xvart ttown flip would incriminate me more than exonerate me.

Not necessarily since scum control the night killing and if nobody picks it up. Like I said in the QT I might have only saw the breadcrumb because I knew we were neighbors; I'm generally terrible at picking up breadcrumbs. Did anyone else pick it up?

Were you ever going to deny that you and Coolskins had a pre-game talk in the scumchat or are you just going to keep implying that it's a ludicrous idea?

I think the scum pairing is a little too much tin foil hat-ish at this stage in the game; and believe you me, I love a good conspiracy as much as the next person.

i didn't have a plan and didn't realize you were looking for anything more specific. the celebloki vote is a starting point imo. lots can happen during the day, but i thought a little pressure might help to start the day. again, saying "i believe there is scum on the tail end of the wagon" and voting the hammer is entirely consistent play.

I get what you are saying but it seems strange that you wouldn't include the "the person that hammered is probably most likely to be scum out of the people on the tail of the wagon" in the neighbor QT. Especially since the hammerer, if scum, would know that Beck isn't scum and that would just be almost suicide to hammer that unless he was absolutely sure that Beck was going to flip serial killer.

I still don't like Don, and Parama's not voting for "confirmed scum" also strikes me as off. A Don/Parama/Kondi scumteam seems very plausible in my mind.

Parama is clearly more scummy than don (who you are voting for) so why aren't you voting him?

[xvart]

EBWOP (forgot to copy from another tab):

It is true. We are neighbors. I've been racking my brain for the life of me about our moderator and his opinions on neighbors since we were in a game together a while back and there were two town neighbors but

Humble didn't say anything definitive about neighbors and alignments other than alignments are unknown

. don did not talk in the neighbor QT at all pre game.

The bolded just makes dons claim worse. He conveniently forgot to mention that he doesn't know his neighbors alignment, which would be an important aspect of a claim, unless you are claiming solely for the sake of trying to make yourself obvtown.

While I agree that his claim was premature I don't necessarily see the reasoning for claiming as scum at that point since at best it sets up a 1v1 at a point where he really wasn't under any real pressure. A vote on don at this point is not the best play at this point because all the evidence is highly circumstantial. If he is scum he'll be caught eventually since we are both under a microscope. For the record, the game I referenced with Humble had three neighbors, all of which were town. The game is here so if anyone wants to look through it feel free.

ok. recieved info back from mod. will explain in detail after xvart answers one question. mod said i could discuss the issue without quoting and that he would neither confirm nor deny anything. so depending on the answer, i should be able to confirm xvart as town or scum regardless of todays outcome.

xvart: please look at your role pm carefully and tell me if there is anything "wrong" with it?

Not that I can tell. Can you be more specific?

xvart piles on a vote. no real reason other than "paramas reaction is town." that seems to be subsrcribing to fallacy "if parama is town, then beck is scum." its page 4

Not at all. My unvote justification was unrelated to my voting of Beck. I voted Beck because I always find it suspicious when people say "ooohh look at all the discussion I generated as a result of me being scummy."

[xvart]

Nope.

[xvart]

Sorry for my absence. I just replaced into another game and was focused there. Will post tonight.

[xvart]

don - OSVs who refuse to have their shot directed by a majority vote when on the verge of being lynched are stupid or scum. Beck was unfortunately the former, but the lynch was still a good one IMO.

I don't disagree but there are degrees of separation between directing to a

specific

person and directing to a group of people; which I don't think we got into enough yesterday. Needless to say it doesn't matter much anymore.

when i received my pm i opened it, saw i was neighbors with xvart and then went to click on the link to the qt. as i scrolled over it, i notice it said it was a link to the scum qt. i immediately pm'd the mod to say "hey, am i scum? or if not, do you realize you sent me a link to the wrong qt.(paraphrased)" mod pm'd me back and said, "no, you are town and the qt is not a mistake, i just forgot to change the label." so i clicked on the link and day had already started. i ask if yours had the same mistake and you say no. but i'm not going to pm hunt you as i think its a bad idea, and if you are town it could end up in two mislynches. you seem to be looking at events objectively.

This is just really strange. Are people able to change the title's of QTs? My browser doesn't even show anything except the link when I hover over it. How would this prove my alignment if I said yes or no?

Bob has posited a scumteam with CooLskins and deselby. Parama has posited a scumteam with CooLskins and Hrezs. Each of them is voting for the non-CooLskins partner. This strikes me as odd; assuming each of them is town, they should think that they have an opportunity to convince another player to lynch one of their scumreads, and a CooLskins wagon should start. I'm sensing a scumteam with Parama and bob that is trying to probe the town's opinion before making a move.

I agree with this assessment.

The truth is that I still feel better about a Hrezs lynch regardless of the fact that you're confirmed scum, because you're confirmed scum mostly for reasons that are beyond your control and have little to do with your posting, whereas Hrezs' posting is basically a scumclaim.
Nah, not basically, it is; especially the one about my "scumslip" as he calls it.

This just reeks of faking a justification because you got called out on it. Someone is confirmed scum because of things beyond their control so you don't vote them?

OSV in a 13p?
pssh. all that would do is waste a lynch for the town. I see no reason to change my vote.

This really strikes me as strange. I don't think I've personally ever seen a full shot vig in a mini normal I've played but I have seen even/odd night vigs and a one shot vig is less shots than those so I don't really get the implication that a one shot vig in a mini normal is unbalanced or soooo unlikely. In fact, wasn't some of the justification for having the mini limit increase to a player base of 13 to incorporate a vig to increase town chances of winning? This just seems like an off the cuff reason to power through the lynch with no substantive base in reality. Based on your opinion do you think a full vig or an even/odd vig is even less likely than a full vig in a mini normal?

the only advantage of an OSV kill over a lynch is that it's guaranteed to come from a townie, but the major disadvantage is that a single townie can be biased.

I don't find this explanation acceptable and you conveniently didn't even consider that a lynch can be biased as well.

And I had a good idea of who Beck would've shot.

And this concerns me greatly since you were so adamant about him being lynched.

P.S. I've seen plenty of vigs in minis.

So the difference between full vigs and one shot vigs is one shot vigs can only be biased once. Have you ever had a full vig claim on D1 in a mini game?

the fact that Parama isn't voting someone that is

confirmed scum

0_0
So you agree that CooLskins is confirmed scum.

1

Even though, technically, he isn't. I just toss around the term haphazardly like a boss.

2

xvart... why do you think CooLskins is confirmed scum?
0_o
Do you know something I don't?
Do you know something that the town doesn't?

3

This is such a scummy post for so many reasons:

1

You know damn well the context of the post is me speaking from your expressed viewpoint.

2

Yet you still call him confirmed scum in this very post and back off of it because his being confirmed scum isn't his fault. Also, even if you throw it around "like a boss" the implication is still more than a casual scum read. Plus, I don't even see really see why you believe he was confirmed scum other than he double RVSed with Beck and some cursory responses to CooLskins. Can you elaborate on what double RVSing means and why this indicates if how one of them is scum?

3

This final string of questions is just laughable at your attempt to undermine me by saying I was the one that called CooLskins confirmed scum couldn't be more obvious.

your ISO has one point about me, and also includes you saying I'm town
whereas you have a huge fight with don including a wall-o-text-war.
What makes me scummier than him, just wondering? Because, well, one, you're wrong, two, it doesn't look like you actually think that.

Well I actually said your response was town because I was expecting a more flame fest with you accusing your attackers with an early wagon (which is ironic because that seems to be what you are doing now). And I really like your sensationalized account of don and I and are apparent "argument." Also, it should be apparent why I believe you to be scum which is equally interesting since you just railed on someone for not reading your posts to find your case; so either you are just trying to make me seem like I don't know what I'm doing or you are hoping I back down to your wheee authority.

and nothing about why I'm scum. neato.you have nothing except this supposed "scumslip" which was just you misrepping me, and blatantly at that. excuse me while I refrain from moving my vote

Gosh. Imagine my surprise that you aren't moving your vote off of someone who has claimed scum or refraining from voting someone who is confirmed scum. This is the sort of mudsligging/subtle threats I have come to expect from Parama scum.

bobnox - it's not good to buddy up to scum.

Celebloki has a good catch. Given the context of and his voting pattern around this time makes this is a solid case and wagon. I'll keep my vote on Parama until Zodiark has a chance to respond but I don't see anything that could really convince me otherwise.

[xvart]

Not sure what to think of Bub's post. I like the conclusion but I'm wary of the possibility that Bub was saving the hydra's hide.

I agree with this. I absolutely hate when hydra's contradict themselves in the game. Generally it's not too bad, but something like this, given the context of how it developed is highly suspicious. And sorry about the miscredit

[xvart]

I think it's mainly a consequence of CooLDoG tunneling onto Don for some time, and then me coming in with fresh eyes and seeing that Don being scum just doesn't make sense.

Your combined views on don isn't what concerns me. It's the flip flop on Zodiark at a time when there was a decent amount of pressure.

Not sure what to think of Bub's post. I like the conclusion but I'm wary of the possibility that Bub was saving the hydra's hide.

I agree with this. I absolutely hate when hydra's contradict themselves in the game. Generally it's not too bad, but something like this, given the context of how it developed is highly suspicious. And sorry about the miscredit

Is it any worse then what zodiark did by flip flopping? I still have a scum read on Don though. I just can't see don being town at the moment. I will hoewever, trust Bub's judgment.

Comparing scummy behavior with other scummy players? The old "look at my left hand while I steal your wallet with my right hand" trick?

Celebloki has a good catch. Given the context of and his voting pattern around this time makes this is a solid case and wagon. I'll keep my vote on Parama until Zodiark has a chance to respond but I don't see anything that could really convince me otherwise.

If that is your intention, then why even wait? I'm at L-3, so theres no concern about scum quickhammering. This is just bad, saying "I find him scummy, but I'm not going to vote for him."

Because I'm not concerned either way. The fact that you didn't even address the point about the contradiction (and your reasoning is terrigut). You voted Celeboki on the basis that hammering a VI OSV was a scumtell (and even went as far to say if the OSV flips OSV then you need to relearn how to scumhunt if the hammerer is town). That's a pretty definitive scumtell. Then, two posts later you said oh hammering a VI isn't a scumtell at all (with the justification that "Celeblokis refusal should make him jump up in scumminess, but for some reason it just gives of a town vibe."). When everything you have said indicates that Celebloki is scum and should be scum based on his responses, but for some reason you get a gut town read and unvote. Looks like the gut town read excuse for not having a good reason.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Celebloki

[xvart]

when i received my pm i opened it, saw i was neighbors with xvart and then went to click on the link to the qt. as i scrolled over it, i notice it said it was a link to the scum qt. i immediately pm'd the mod to say "hey, am i scum? or if not, do you realize you sent me a link to the wrong qt.(paraphrased)" mod pm'd me back and said, "no, you are town and the qt is not a mistake, i just forgot to change the label." so i clicked on the link and day had already started. i ask if yours had the same mistake and you say no. but i'm not going to pm hunt you as i think its a bad idea, and if you are town it could end up in two mislynches. you seem to be looking at events objectively.

This is just really strange. Are people able to change the title's of QTs? My browser doesn't even show anything except the link when I hover over it.

How would this prove my alignment if I said yes or no?

[xvart]

Oops. I just noticed my incorrect vote.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Zodiark

More posting tonight.

[xvart]

Xvart: I am not going to pm hunt you. Exploring this issue further could lead to rampant speculation and the fallacy that "one of the neighbors must be scum" which, if you are town, will lead to two easy mislynches. I suggest we move forward with traditional scum hunting. If there is anything else in my response that you are unsatisfied with, please let me know.

I don't really know what "pm hunt" means, but whatever.

I agree with don's logic behind Hrezs. When looking at two scummy players that might be linked it is best to lynch the one that is more likely scum and then determine the relationship tomorrow.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Hrezs L-1

[xvart]

I'm here. Will post tomorrow. Still trying to process everything.

[xvart]

Not sure about Zodiark anymore. His posts are obvscum but I have other evidence that puts him on the same playing field as Parama...

I really don't like the fact that you are clearing people so to speak because they didn't travel anywhere during the night phase, especially since there have been no scum flips.

You are either terrible town or scum. Your play is beyond scummy regardless of my evidence that suggests you might not be scum. You are still the best suspect based on your atrocious treatment of this game from the very beginning. It wouldn't take a rocket scientist to figure out what I am. Knowing that you'd be my target, I wouldn't be surprised if you guys had someone else send in the NK.

Lynching "terrible town" is generally a bad play at this point in the game.

I agree the celeb kill was unexpected. If it was a mod-random kill, what do you think it means re zodiark? I think it would be less likely zodiark is scum. Of course we can't actually know about the kill for sure, zod remains a good lynch, but we should certainly wait to hear a decent amount from the replacements before lynching tiday.

As long as we are throwing out conspiracy theories about the Celebloki kill, I'll just say maybe bobnox is a scum tracker and tracked him the previous night. Seems like a reasonable suggestion to me. The mere suggestion that the scum NK was randomized is absurd because that would require all the scum team to have flaked, and unless there is some reason to think we only have two scum in this game at the very least I won't even consider this all and at the very most consider it scum distractions.

Zodiark could easily still be scum regardless that I saw no action last night. No scum team in its right mind would send him to do the kill last night as someone pointed out.

If no scum team in their right mind would send Zodiark to commit the kill then why did you track him?

VOTE: bobnox

Tonight I'll have more as I'm going to parse out more of these soft claims and see what I can make of it. Honestly though, the whole conversation today seems pretty contrived and preplanned to me.

[xvart]

The last game I played with him, he bussed one of his buddies from the get go and then another one later in the game (IIRC) with little provocation. He also thinks I'm a horrible player. If we were both scum, I'd be dead by now.

This isn't a valid point because if Parama hard core bussed someone D1 in every single game where he was scum he would be catching heat every single time he was vocal and sure of himself on a D1 scum lynch.

You're beating a dead horse. I am the Tracker. I saw you took no action last night. That doesn't clear you. It makes it less likely you're scum since there was a NK, but it doesn't clear you. I still think you're scum because your play has been scummy from the get go. It's funny how people are forgetting the complete 180 you did on Celebloki, completely contradicting yourself. I wanted you dead yesterday but Hrezs was on the chopping block for everyone else. You are still scummy and have not improved. I just hoped I would have damning evidence when this day started.

Being "the Tracker" doesn't clear you, either. The fact that you claimed when completely unwarranted and unnecessary and the fact that you tracked Zodiark for the explicit reason of solidifying a scum read on someone who more than likely was going to be today's lynch is highly suspicious. And Zodiark not traveling anywhere has absolutely no bearing on him being less likely/more likely scum because Zodiark committing a night action is not connected to his scummy behavior in game.

I'm NOT clearing anyone. goodness people. My evidence SUGGESTS that Parama is not scum just as it SUGGESTS Zodiark is not scum, but that doesn't CLEAR either of them. I am LEANING town on Parama and LEANING scum on Zodiark.

That's why I included the modifier "so to speak". And a failed track does not suggest anything other than Zodiark didn't submit a night action last night.

I was hoping to seal the deal. It would've been the next best thing to a cop result if Zodiark targeted last night's kill. I also didn't think about the fact that they might not send Zodiark until someone (Parama?) brought it up today.

Just so I have this straight: you tracked someone who you were confident was scum and was most likely to be the lynch straight out of the gate today. Were you planning to claim today if he visited the dead body last night? With no scum flipped yet?

[xvart]

FURTHERMORE I find it extremely annoying that NOBODY who is jumping all over me has noted how I ended yesterday:

If hrezs flips town I'm still voting zodiark tomorrow.

good lynch. if you're town you should lern2play.

Zodiark is still scum either way.

What is the scum motivation behind my supposed fake Tracker claim with THAT in view? I would like an answer from everyone on my wagon plus havingfitz. What is the scum motivation for easing off of Zodiark when I was pre-pushing his wagon REGARDLESS of what Hrezs would flip?

I don't recall anyone saying it is a fake result; why do you think that we think that? You illustrate my point pretty well with your own quotes. You were gung hoe Zodiark regardless of the alignment flip yesterday and then you tracked your number one suspect. It almost seems like you were looking for a reason to not vote him today, especially with your weak "hold the phones I have evidence that says Zodiark didn't go anywhere last night," which is in no way a town tell. Everything you believed about Zodiark being scum yesterday is still valid today.

Speaking of your entry into D3:

Oh wait. Gotta check something

What did you need to go check and what did it tell you?

Do you know what result you would get if you happened to be roleblocked?

I was hoping to seal the deal. It would've been the next best thing to a cop result if Zodiark targeted last night's kill. I also didn't think about the fact that they might not send Zodiark until someone (Parama?) brought it up today.

It was CooLskins in

Post 455

; and he wasn't the first to mention it. You were in

Post 445

:

You are either terrible town or scum. Your play is beyond scummy regardless of my evidence that suggests you might not be scum. You are still the best suspect based on your atrocious treatment of this game from the very beginning. It wouldn't take a rocket scientist to figure out what I am.

Knowing that you'd be my target, I wouldn't be surprised if you guys had someone else send in the NK.

[xvart]

Also, why were you not worried about being NKed if it didn't take a rocket scientist to figure out you are a tracker?

[xvart]

Yes, Parama. I'll want to see a legitimate case on either of us if that is the road you are going down because it would be a scum members dream to have two town neighbors and push the idea that one of them

has

to be scum. In fact, if I'm crunching the numbers correctly then

if

both of us are town and

if

there are two scum remaining then lynching us one after the other gives the scum a win.

I've got a couple of people I want to reread which I plan to do tomorrow.

[xvart]

Basically all zodiark has done is vote for the person that hammered yesterday. And built up a small case on bob for swingy on and off of wagons. He hasn't generated that much content, but he has said anything that is overtly scummy.

I totally disagree with CooLDoG.

unvote; vote: zodiark

@xvart, Its not a flip flop. Its bub's view on zodiark. I personally have a null read on him atm.

I think CooLskins is scum. His opinion of Zodiark was soft/vague enough to allow to vote him if it came to it, and when pressure/speculation was put on them about that post, the other head comes back "woah I totally disagree he's obvscum". This flip flop is highly indicative of a scum relationship with their buddy. And the excuse "ooohh we are hydra, it's cool bro" doesn't cut it.

Don, let me tell you this. I could refute every single argument that you have made. I could point to your "case" on bob and show how you never quoted him, and how you never brought. However, I do not have the time to do so. Tomorrow I will.

Bub has told me that he has some thoughts. Specifically about having deflecting or something along those lines.

And this is a super scummy post by virtue of trying to get out from under suspicion before it builds any steam.

VOTE: CooLskins

[xvart]

Don, let me tell you this. I could refute every single argument that you have made. I could point to your "case" on bob and show how you never quoted him, and how you never brought. However, I do not have the time to do so. Tomorrow I will.

Bub has told me that he has some thoughts. Specifically about having deflecting or something along those lines.

And this is a super scummy post by virtue of trying to get out from under suspicion before it builds any steam.

can you explain this one a bit more? i'm not really following what you're saying.

Basically it boils down to the question "why post believe you me that I can tear apart your case and show you how faulty it is but I don't have time to do so right now, so you'll have to wait until tomorrow. But just believe me that it is terrible." There is no town motivation to saying anything like that (and if there is I can't think of it) so the only thing is trying to squash it before it goes anywhere with the subtlety I can do this and I will (later).

I think we should lynch fitz today. Despite DJ terrible contradiction, fitz takes the scummy pie today for

creating a crap case on now-confirmed town

to protect a scumbud. Interesting looking back how he said he "didn't really notice Zodiark" when Zodiark was the leading wagon. And yet he noticed Bobs who hadn't really done much up until the case was made against him. And Kondi's wanton L-1 on D-1 still rings fresh in my mind.

Referring to my bolded emphasis I assume you are talking about me since fitz is voting me, but how am I confirmed town now?

[xvart]

That's a misrepresentation of our stance on zodiark. I personally had zodiark as a null read. Bub on the other hand thought that zodiark was scummy. He made it very clear (to me at least) that our vote should be on zodiark. I trusted his judgment and that was it. If you think that's scummy then go ahead and vote me.

It's not a misrepresentation at all. It's a accurate account of what actually happened. I absolutely cannot stand it when hydra heads post contradictory reads in game because doing so under any circumstances is scummy; however, I did understand that it is an unfortunate byproduct of being a schizophrenic hydra. The point that I am making is your contradictory reads is uniquely scum motivated, especially now that Zodiark has flipped scum.

One head came in and said "Basically all zodiark has done is vote for the person that hammered yesterday. And built up a small case on bob for swingy on and off of wagons. He hasn't generated that much content, but he has said anything that is overtly scummy", which is a pretty middle of the road thing to say, leaving the door open for saying "well I suppose those things I said earlier could be scummy so I'll go ahead and vote my buddy now." At the time of this post Zodiark had 2 votes.

Then, in the very next post, bobnox calls your slot scum for that post, and two posts later the other head comes in and says "woah I totally disagree and Zodiark is obvscum." That head unilaterally changes your stance on Zodiark without even suggesting that "I am in disagreement, I need to talk about this with my other head because he's not seeing what I see" like I would think a town hydra would. The 180 turn around is inherently scum motivated and the lack of interest in convincing the other head looks like a cover up for such a soft read on a buddy.

If you think that's scummy then go ahead and vote me.

Thanks for your permission but I am already voting you.

I'm going to try to respond kindly to this next part see as it is completely full of shit and made up. A lesser man would vote your ass for even thinking about pulling this card.

1

So I'm scum because I didn't have enough time to refute don's posts even though I explicitly stated that I would.

2

And I'm non committal even though I have been avidly trying to get don lynched for over 2 days now?

³

This is the definition of bullshit reasons. Stop chainsaw defing your neighbor that you yourself don't know his alignment.

⁴

Not only are you missing my point but you are inaccurately assigning motives to my commentary.

1

This sentence is extremely strange. If anyone else would have voted me because of what I said does that make what I said :

• Scummy;
  
• Not scummy but people might inadvertently think it is scummy; or,
  
• Something else?

Really, though, why aren't you voting me if everyone else would be because saying you're a bigger person because you aren't voting for me doesn't really say much about you being town.

2

Your refutation of don's points came almost 36 hours after you lambasted don. What was the point of coming in to the thread and

only

saying "your case is terrible and I'll destroy every part of it later. I'm just too busy now"? I can see town saying "I'll respond to those points when I have more time" or anything else, but the level of emotion in your post indicates that there is some other motivation.

3

This is debatable, but is entirely beside the point. While you are pretty adamant about getting don lynched you do waffle enough when you posted about the pm error stuff. Again, I don't see the relevance of your relationship with don to your scummy behavior.

4

Explain to me the "chainsaw defense" of my neighbor and how me not knowing his alignment has anything to do with your comment. I'm not defending don and the person you made your comment to has no bearing on my commentary on your posting. My concerns were unique to what you said and not to whom you said it.

Finally, I don't really want this to be misconstrued as the crux of the argument in favor of you being scum. It is really only a sidepoint and

the basis of you being scum is your connection/contradiction/backpedaling under pressure with regard to flipped scum Zodiark.

Plus, I still want to know how I am confirmed town.

[xvart]

Again, you seem to not understand English here. I personally (CooLDoG) did not find zodiark scummy. Bub on the other hand (meaning that he differs in opinion fyi) thought that zodiark was scummy and was worth a lynch. Sense I didn't have a strong town read on him I went along with it.
Read next fucking time.

Oh no. I understand perfectly what you are saying: that your player slot made a scummy post fence sitting on scum Zodiark's alignment when it only had two votes. Then, your player slot blatantly contradicted itself after receiving pressure because of that scummy post. And frankly, I don't care what head thinks what. You are a single player slot and the convenience and timing of the contradiction in light of Zodiark's scum flip is damning to say the least.

I know it is hard for scum to think about things in an objective and unbiased light (especially when they are the focal point), but honestly, if one player said "oh I think Player X is town/null despite the case presented", then Player Y comes in and says "that is a scummy post", then the player comes back and says "oh yeah, vote: Player X" you don't find that the least bit scummy? I understand schizophrenic hydras having contradictory reads but the way to parse out whether or not they are scum or just a poor playing town hydra is motive and intent. The timing of your contradiction is incredibly scummy, and I'm not exactly going to trust your word on Bub having a scum read on Zodiark since

there had been no posts by your player slot regarding Zodiark being scummy prior to the contradiction

to substantiate this claim.

We did talk about it. I still had a null read on him. Yet bub was very strongly opinionated about zodiark being scum for the contradiction that he made before. I trusted his opinion and went ahead with the vote. You should really wait for bub to repond to this.

When did you discuss it amongst your heads? Before your post or after your post and before Bubs' post?

I'm just going to rescind the thing about your posting about don, because it isn't going to get us anywhere just arguing semantics, intention, and motive behind someone not having time to post and the message they conveyed. Like I said, you aren't scum because of that post, it was, in my opinion, a scummy post coming from scum and isn't needed to lynch you.

Plus: You are not confirmed town.

If I am not confirmed town then what is the basis for your attack on Fitz making a case on me?

[xvart]

imag...what part of xvart's "genuine" scum-hunting do you like? Considering he has been on both mislynches and was off the popular Zodiark wagon (ie. he's got it wrong [or right if I am correct] all three votes).

This is a pretty terrible case you are making. You say nothing of my motive for being on or off those wagons which is the important part. And you don't even consider whether or not I was willing to lynch Beck based on his claim since I wasn't able to post between his claim and him being hammered, which makes me think you aren't even evaluating motives, just outcomes.

@don, I am concerned about your “let’s not lynch neighbours” proposal. As I said earlier, it only makes any sense if you are town, kind of a pointless in this game. It seems that you were just trying to frighten town into not lynching a neighbour (which would probably be you). For me it is the scummiest post of D4 so far.

Why is this only directed at don? I also said as much when I was addressing Parama because IF both neighbors are town and we just go the route of lynch the neighbors we lose.

@cooldog - not sure what you are getting at here:

Before I fully catch up I wanted to say that the scum killing bob was a big mistake. Whoever the scum were they really misjudged that kill. They had two to three people saying that for some reason bob was scum, when it was obvious that he was town. I'm going to look back and see who pushed the bob wagon.

Commenting on how terrible the night kill is classic scum misdirection. Saying "what a stupid kill" with the implication that he would not have made that kill and therefore isn't scum. Furthermore, the fact that CooLskins says that bob was obvious town is a good enough motive for the kill, coupled with bob being a tracker seems like a good reason to kill from his eyes. This whole statement is just a justification for fake hunting the people who were suspicious of bob.

Coolskins...you guys are the worst hydra I ever ever played with. You don't seem to agree with each other and you keep making excuses based on the other's play. If I didn't think xvart was scum you would be my top suspect. The only reason I don't atm is today's interactions with xvart and your D3 crusade against Zodiark.

Regarding the "D3 crusade against Zodiark" you have to keep in mind the context. As scum, CooLskins had no choice but to go on that crusade because they were called out on their contradictory read already, so not being gung ho about it at that time would be even scummier. They use the classic "why isn't Zodiark dead yet?" and "Zodiark dies today" rhetoric that makes it seem like that are Zodiark or bust but don't actively try and get him lynched (other than reposting the same thing they posted the day before).

Parama - why aren't you voting CooLskins, the person that was D1 confirmed scum? It appears that despite the actions outside of their control D1 that made them scum it would be an even better lynch based on their actions and behaviors being indicative of scum and therefore an obvious lynch in your eyes.

[xvart]

Note that there's a huge difference between the start of D2 and halfway through D4 <_<.

Yes, there is; and that difference is CooLskins has been uniquely scummier since the start of D2, which is my point.

[xvart]

It's only terrible if you are town. Your motive for being on the Beck wagon was extremely weak with no previous suspicions directed at him. Your L-1 vote on Hrez (for a case made by don) came with no rationale of your own or any previous mention of Hrez. You are just interested in being on the mislynch.

Oh good. So there was more thought to your vote than just "being on both mislynches and off the scum lynch". Well there is nothing much I can say in defense of your suspicions except for the reason I voted Beck is similar in nature to other D1 votes I place, but that is as scum or town so no alignment indication there. I poke and prod during D1 unless something is obviously scum motivated from my point of view. As for Hzres, I thought my motivation was pretty clear. I found Zodiark scummy but don's logic was sound by the connection to each other.

As for not being around to post between Beck's claim and his hammer...what does that matter? It didn't stop you from placing and maintaining your vote on bobsnox when he was outted/claimed tracker. This is a contradiction on your part. You make it seem like you would have removed the vote on Back if you had been around after he had claimed but you fail to do the same thing after bobsnox's claim and instead stay on his wagon while remaining off the equally prominent (and accurate) Zodiark wagon.

There is a world of difference between voting someone who is a claimed vig and someone who is a claimed tracker, and to suggest otherwise is absurd. Not only is tracker much more likely to be a scum role compared to a vig; but vig is marginally testable. AND, most importantly, was the behavior bobnox surrounding his claim and clearing/semi-clearing people based on his no results. We saw how well that worked with Zodiark being cleared/semi-cleared so my suspicion was sound.

[xvart]

FMPOV, if xvart is town then that means you or Coolskins are scum. Why? Because there is no way in hell that there were no scum on Beck's seven person mislynch and I know I am not scum,

which means you, Coolskins, or xvart are scum.

Fine...based primarily on his vote outside of his three person lynch pool I'll accept his suspicion. If he flips scum neighbor I'll apologize to confirmed town xvart be he dead or alive. don scum will point to dselby IMO. don town should focus attention on xvart.

VOTE: don_johnson

This is a terrible vote hop. And considering your 587 post and this vote hope it seems you should be voting either Parama or CooLskins, if you all of the sudden think I'm town (unless you think don and I are both scum fake claiming neighbors).

xvart is town because DJ is scum.

Statements like these really worry me.

Again, just because don flips scum does not mean that xvart is cleared. They could scum gambit neighbor claim. However, I feel that that is unlikely because IO have a town read on xvart. A+ vote, we need more of them.

Scum posting. This ambiguous read on my alignment pending a don flip is ridiculous, because no matter what he flips you will have the answer handed to you on a plate. Either he will flip scum neighbor, town neighbor, or scum role. In all of those scenarios how is my alignment ambiguous? You mistakenly soft peddled about my alignment without actually thinking it through to leave yourself outs tomorrow. In fact, your soft "townread" on me looks an awful lot like you trying to appease me to get off your wagon, which is something you accused don of doing.

Oh, and CooLdog - Bub must have missed your memo to him about his responsibility of responding to me.

We should absolutely be lynching CooLskins today, as his alignment is scum independent of don's alignment; plus, a CooLskin scum flip gives us a ton of information about Parama's alignment to discuss tomorrow.

[xvart]

I don't think you are town....but as I do not know who is town and who isn't, doubt comes into play. I didn't care for the fact that don had a pool of three players he thought was scum but was voting outside of that pool so parama was able to talk me into switching. In case you did not notice, the aforementioned doubt led to an unvote so the "terrible vote hop" is no more (atm).

Okay, the fact that you unvoted does not negate the terrible vote hop that did occur prior to your unexplained unvote. And if you "don't think

am town" then why aren't you voting me? Or anyone? Is it because your suspicions are now all muddled by your own previous statements and you being so easily influenced by other players that you don't know where you can legitimately justify a vote now?

[xvart]

Why was it a terrible vote hop?
Do unvotes need to be explained?
I'm not voting you atm because there was no rush to put my vote back on you. 0 votes or 1 votes...either way it's not doing much there.
And I'm not worried about "legitimately justifying" my votes. I'll vote for who I suspect and provide my reasons when I do.

It was a terrible vote hope for obvious reasons, but first we need to clear something up. Don and I are either neighbors OR we are both scum fake claiming neighbors. For the sake of argument, I'm going to eliminate us being scum fake claiming because it is ridiculous and I know it isn't the case, so that leaves us as neighbors. If you want to make the argument that we are both scum go ahead, but from your posting I don't think you believe this to be the case. So that leaves don and me as neighbors. So the following possibilities exist:

1. I am town, don is town;
   
2. I am town, don is scum; or,
   
3. I am scum, don is town.

As neighbors, it is impossible for us to both be scum; yet you vote hop from me to don which basically suggests that you don't think your case on me was very good to begin with. It is a terrible vote hop because you were so easily influenced to vote for someone who had to be town based on the case you presented for me being scum.

Do unvotes need to be explained?

Unvotes obviously do not

need

to be explained but there is an inherent scum motivation for not explaining an unvote when it follows vote hopping on someone who had to be town based on the case you previously presented.

I'm not voting you atm because there was no rush to put my vote back on you. 0 votes or 1 votes...either way it's not doing much there.

Conversely, your vote would be doing more on me than it would in the not voting column, and if there was no rush or fear of ending the day why not place the vote back on me?

I'll vote for who I suspect and provide my reasons when I do.

And you'll not provide reasons for not voting anyone as it currently stands. Got it.

I can't remember and haven't gone back to look at their connections but does anyone else think Fitz/Kondi and CooLskins could be a likely scum pair?

[xvart]

@xvart, top 3 scums, as well as Havingfitz.

What kind of question is this? How many scum do you think are in this game? And isn't it obvious who my top three scum reads are? CooLskins, havingfitz, and maybe Parama. My read on Parama is highly associated with scum read on CooLskins, so isn't really an independent read.

The main difficulty is it would mean he's bussing both his buddies when he calls Zodiark and havingfitz scumbuddies in iso48. But then, he still pushes harder for a don lynch today, so it's possible they're buddies looking from this direction.

Yes, but I'll say again that I think they were forced into bussing Zodiark hard by virtue of their contradiction.

1, you've explained it, I think everyone understands what you're saying - it's just some people believe you that the contradiction was innocuous, some don't.

Yes, this is a good way to state it. The timing and development of the contradiction is such that there is a high likelihood that it is scum motivated. It wasn't some side comment and contradiction independent of a main bandwagon or growing bandwagon. It is a focal point of someone who flipped scum.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: havingfitz L-1

[xvart]

I think it's probably time for a mass claim and I personally want CooLskins to claim first.

He's not scum with CooLskins because there's no way in hell two separate scum wagons were being pushed yesterday.

Actually, it is possible, especially if both were behaving scummy independent of each other. A game just finished where both D1 and D2 the competing wagons were both scum and this logic almost cleared me when I replaced in. While I personally didn't have a solid scum read on don yesterday compared to CooLskins, I was cognizant of the things people were saying yesterday. I think the fact that both of us are alive today indicates strongly that don could possibly be scum. If you think about it, if we both were town one of us should have died last night to push the whole "one neighbor must be scum" idea and lead the town into game over. If don is scum they couldn't kill me because of the heat don was getting yesterday as he would be an auto lynch.

In our neighbor QT last night I posted that CooLskins must die tomorrow (today) due to everything I said yesterday plus that super scummy hammer without even asking for a claim. I also posted that I had a town read on don even though that wasn't exactly true to see if I could fish out some information prior to day beginning pending the night kill cementing my read on him either way. I closed the first post of the night by saying that I wouldn't be shocked if one of us was killed during night to put the town in a LYLO situation tomorrow forcing the other neighbor to be lynched.

Don said he concurred with the CooLskins hammer being awful and said he had a null read on deselby and that imagine was town. I agreed with his assessment on Imagine and then dropped how mad I would be for not pushing CooLskins and Parama harder the first two days if they turned out to be the scum team. Don came back and said the Parama connection to CooLskins should be clear if CooLskins flips scum. Then says he is hesitant about Parama being scum in this game state. He said he hopes we both survive the night as we are stronger as a unified front. The wishes me good luck.

Based on everything that happened yesterday with the don wagon I would be the obvious NK if don was town.

This game is the trainwreck that never should've been <.<

lol. You said this would happen here.

CooLskins' haphazard vote today looks like the ultimate fake "I'm convinced because I know I'm right because I'm scum" vote, and it is so cavalier considering we are in LYLO like he knows scum can't quickhammer. If don and CooLskins are scum they knew I was going to be gunning for CooLskins and they knew that don was also going to come out strong against them today, too. Since they both were under fire yesterday I suspect they are setting up a 1v1 with them knowing what I said in the neighbor QT so when one flips they buy town cred.

CooLskins - is there a reason you didn't ask for a claim yesterday when we weren't close to a deadline?

I am confident that CooLskins and don are the remaining scum.

[xvart]

CooLskins - what claim is irrelevant? Your claim today or Fitz's claim that you didn't give him the opportunity to make?

[xvart]

Sorry for my delay in responding; been a busy week. Good game, everyone. My sincerest apologies to don for doubting him in the final hour. Sorry for my play early game. I wish I would have pushed on Parama harder; I always felt an itch that Parama was scum but it was all so roundabout and circumstantial that I never could have pushed it without looking scummy myself. This game is further proof for me that I need to focus on not tunneling so hard and step back and look at the bigger picture once in a while. I was having serious deja vu with this game and the early D1 one shot vig claim since that exact thing was claimed in another game I was playing at the time.

Did the scum QT get released?

Thanks Humble for modding and inviting me to play. I liked the setup, although I now can say I hate being a neighbor due to the constant doubt. Looking back, I now realize that what I did in the final night of the QT with don I was basically setting him up to be scum no matter what, which I shouldn't have done.

I don't remember who it was, maybe havingfitz that made a very valid point about Beck refusing to follow the town's direction and the comparison to the people that strung him up were wrong so why should he trust their judgement. That was an astute observation and should be said more often in similar situations.