Open 318: By Nomination Only (Game Over)

[Amrun]

VOTE: Papa Zito

Unnecessary claiming. Everyone in the game will claim VT, whether they are or not.

[Amrun]

And what cognitive dissonance is that?

I am not sure you are scum or anything, and you're clearly reaction fishing of some kind, but I don't care. There is no point at all to your claim.

[Amrun]

By saying I don't think you are scum for that action (nor town), I thought it was pretty clear that it was an RV.

[Amrun]

Then you are certainly not reading it correctly (or we are using different definitions, which is possible).

Asking you why you claimed isn't from a townie mindset?

When I saw it, it made me immediately paranoid that you were doing some combination of a) claiming early so people like FenChurch woulld get a townread on you, b) setting up a situation where any response was construed as scummy. But I could also see a c) scenario, where you are reaction fishing as town.

So I decided to place a vote on you to see what shook out. The vote was not to indicate that you are town or scum in my view, and a vote in post 2 should always be seen as random imho.

P-edit: I think I explained above, but my read on PZ is null.

[Amrun]

Looool.

Rory. A) Not a newbie. B) Claiming doesn't give scum any information here. It doesn't give town any information, either.

[Amrun]

Claim VT.

See how simple, easy, and pointless it is? Can we move on?

GreyICE suggested the optimal play would be to RNG the "normal" lynches. Thoughts?

[Amrun]

Are you asking me whether I am ignoring a dynamic or telling me that I am?

I'm not sure what has shaken out, yet. You're being deliberately opaque. I have decided that if your ploy was designed for a and b, b is definitely more what you had in mind, but c is still a fairly equal possibility.

P-edit: I am not inclined to lynch the way GreyICE suggested as it sounds boring, but thought it was worth bringing up.

Also, wagons on me are fun.

[Amrun]

Oh, and another thing: if me asking you why you claimed is null, PZ, then how is it also only coming from a scum mindset?

[Amrun]

PZ, I wanted to see both how you would react to it and how everyone else would. All in all, I thought it was a fairly simple way to begin moving the game towards content.

That "experiment" is still in the midst of being carried out, as not everyone has even posted.

If you were being transparent, you would have said why you claimed when asked mutliple times

[Amrun]

Unvote

Something has "shaken out."

Rory, are you an alt?

[Amrun]

Someone asked me if I think I will be nminated tomorrow, and I forgot to answer. If the day ended RIGHT NOW, there would a higher than average probability. By the end of the day, things might change drastically.

[Amrun]

I thought that was Copper. I guess we have a couple.

Why don't you break it down for me, Rory. Why does claiming VT in this set up give scum any information whatsoever?

P-edit: NS, if you think I'm scum, why isn't your vote on me?

Hoopla, do you agree with Rory's assessment of me?

[Amrun]

So you suspect me, but you'd rather keep an RV? Why ois that?

[Amrun]

Optimal play is typically doing the opposite of what GreyICE says.

Missed this post before. Lol.

NS, why do you suspect Copper? Simply because he won't reveal his heads? If so, do you also suspect Rory?

Rory, has this hydra played other games?

P-edit: That I am a newbie and very stupid, specifically.

[Amrun]

Oh, true. My b. Still waiting on NS, then.

[Amrun]

The unvote was supposed to make it obvious.

[Amrun]

For answers to the questions I asked you...

[Amrun]

NS, why do you suspect Copper? Simply because he won't reveal his heads? If so, do you also suspect Rory?

Oh, missed this.

I have experience with Copper. No experience with Rory. Not the best of reasons, but there it is.

What about your experience with Copper leads you to suspect him here?

[Amrun]

So Copper is essentially a policy lynch for unreadability, but you actually suspect me.

Okay.

VOTE: Nobody Special

[Amrun]

Answer my question, rory.

[Amrun]

TS: Random Number Generator

[Amrun]

Ts, you were doing a joke vote for a joke version of me, so how does that warrant a vote on vitamin r?

[Amrun]

Why unvote if your vote had nowhere to go?

What do you think of ns, tts?

[Amrun]

Why not comment on the more controversial players, muffin?

Agree that fenchurch has done nothing, though, and her non-committal nature about PZ bothered me.

[Amrun]

Oops, missed a whole page.

Lol fenchurch. My thought processes were totally transparent, so I won't even bother to explain it again.

The only thing that might cause confusion is my perhaps non-standard use of the word random, which I already explained.

[Amrun]

Sorry for the triple post, but it just occurred to me that I've never seen zmuffin play so flippantly. Can I see some scum meta, zmuffin?

[Amrun]

Wait, what does my name have to do with thundercats?

[Amrun]

It's cool... I like thundercats. Lol

[Amrun]

Well, you didn't say much about me vs PZ, or about NS, which are still the hot topics.

[Amrun]

NS lurks and flounders as scum... It is just his way. He hates being scum.

Fenchurch, my explanation never once changed.

[Amrun]

I want to state for the record that NS is NOT lurking this game.

And that alone is enough for me to switch to ...

Vote: Vitamin R

NS is not off my suspect list, though. How did I move from scum to town in your eyes, NS?

Vitamin R, you don't suspect anybody? Really? Personally, I find lack of vote one of the most reliable scumtells on the site.

[Amrun]

Uh, Hoopla made an excellent post on why we should divulge townreads.

TS and PZ are my two strongest townreads atm. Copper is a third (a little less strong than the previous two).

[Amrun]

Not sure if forest understands the set up even remotely, which is probably a towntell.

[Amrun]

PZ's post immediately above asked why people were ignoring forest-air. I answered with my opinion of forest-air.

[Amrun]

Forest air, why was NS claiming VT a "convenient role for him to claim?"

[Amrun]

If you were just going to vote for a "slip" (and I'm still processing th potential validity of it), what was the point of withholding your vote, VR?

P-edit: I saw the answer before I asked the question. It just didn't make a lot of sense to me.

[Amrun]

Hoopla, you misunderstood the entire basis of my "attack" on Papa Zito. I already explained it, though, so I won't again unless you really want me to. I will say this, though: I did not expect or want that vote to go unchallenged.

I feel better about your alignment for that post, though.

Also, I am a little overextended between mafia and real life right now, so there is a certain shallowness to my play in all my games that disappoints me, but I have chosen to let my play suffer a little rather than replacing out of anything. I shouldn't have joined thos game but I reeeeaaaly wanted to play the maiden voyage of this set-up.

That being said, "asking questions" is not even close to being a scumtell for me. Rather, it is something I do as any alignment (truth be told I probably need to balance more by doing it more as scum). It has come up before in other games, but I don't care. Asking questions is how I probe alignment.

There is something off about zmuffin's play in this game. I can't put my finger on it - but I will, eventually.

[Amrun]

I don't want to coach the scum on how to appear town.

[Amrun]

Is it perhaps that you are mudslinging all over the place with loaded questions yhat serve no purpose, just like this?

[Amrun]

Every gut scumread is clearly because the person with the gut scumread can't explain fake suspicion on a townie. Yes, of course that is correct.

[Amrun]

I skimmed it a bit, but haven't done a full analysis yet. I'm busy. When I have some time to spend with it, I'll post my findings.

[Amrun]

I'd love to hear why you're voting for Zito.

[Amrun]

Conflicted. I have flip flopped on him a couple of times, tbh.

I was waiting on.a couple of things: to see if I got a townread on you, and to see what you thought of him. Having just recently played a game as scum with him, I thought you'd have a better read.

At first, I thought he was a bit scummy bit could go either way, and then town - but in hindsight, it's kind of obvious what answer I wanted to hear and he could have fed it to me.

If his true goal was to get us out of RVS, why hasn't he been .. Y'now ... Scumhunting?

LOLFENCESITLOL

The only experience I have with him as a player is from PYP and I wasn't even in that very long because you guys killed me.

[Amrun]

That is basically how I was thinking - when I settled on what I thought of his claim and how he handled it, I decided town - but then there is a large of expanse of blankness. I don't know yet if that is a scum, town, or nulltell from PZ in particular.

[Amrun]

Rory: Meh. I had a reaction similar to muffin's to Fenchurch's first few posts. I grant you that muffin's conviction is a bit odd, but he has cited meta-related reasons for his case, which you have ignored.

If one adds to this that muff had to be asked to find reasons, one should become more worried. Because given these reasons (passivity, little interaction), there were many suitable targets, not Fenchurch alone. That's not because many players are bad, it's because the game is young. It's even more odd that muff semi buddys me here (I could explain a myself, apparently), because I've been withholding my vote in an obvious way, as has been observed by some clever townies.

You appear to imply here that you've been withholding your vote on purpose. If so, could you explain why?

VitaminR, what was the purpose of this question to Rory?

[Amrun]

Unvote; Vote: Papa Zito

Still not liking that not voting is a scumtell in your eyes and you committed that - BUT your reasoning for it seems genuine and was lampshaded. I am buying it.

[Amrun]

I think Hoopla jokes as either alignment, but in PYP, she didn't joke until they basically had the game in the bag, drunkposting and calling for hammers and such.

[Amrun]

Oh shit. I might get drunk just for that game. It would probs have to be a marathon. Amazing.

[Amrun]

That is one part of the post that strongly indicated forest doesn't understand the set up, yes.

I think scum would take more time to acquaint themselves with the set up and plan for optimal play - and if forest would not do that, at least one of his teammates probably would.

Iit isn't the strongest towntell ever, and sitting here typing this I've thought that maybe that post was actually a IIoA smokescreen, especially considering the thwory is oncorrect this game.

But overall, forest has given me lazytown vibes rather than scum.

But now I'm becoming paranoid and thinking his denial of mixing up the setup is an elementary scumtell. HALP!

Tl;dr: Maybe you're right, Fenchurch; it is probably closer to null, but I still have no interest in lynching F_A for today.

[Amrun]

What disappeared?

[Amrun]

VitaminR, what do you think of my post where I torture myself with WIFOM over Forest's mixup/denial of mixup?

[Amrun]

Well, that is what I said in that post, actually, in different words.

IN OTHER NEWS, despite Copper's previous towniness, his latest post reads like a "Where has my mislynch gone while I was away" scumpost. Previous posting grants him some wiggling room, though.

[Amrun]

Also I just now decided NS is town. Yay!

[Amrun]

VitaminR: Just because I think that one post MAY be an elementary scumtell does not mean that forest is the most advantageous lynch for the day.

Zmuffin: I asked VitaminR that question because I was interested in his answer.

I am confused by that other question. Do you mean did that part overshadow the individual post it was in or all of Copper's collective posts?


Rory: is making sensea towntell for Hoopla in your eyes?

[Amrun]

It just did. He did continue to question VitaminR, but ALL of his questions had been previously answered by Vitamin, which helped it feel like Copper was just trying to keep the lynch alive by forcing rehashing.

The rest of his post didn't prompt me to say anything about it, especially as I got distracted by the scummy bit. I agree that Fenchurch is probtown, though.

[Amrun]

Zmuffin: what conclusion did you draw from your "leading question?"

Rory: Do you think Hoopla doesn't make sense as scum?

[Amrun]

Yes, now and then, scum totally miss it. But have you played with Hoopla as scum, Rory?

I have, and I really don't think Hoopla would just make a big logic fail as any alignment. She is supremely logical.

Having said that, I have a town read on her here, but she blitzed me as scum even though I had decided pre-game that her number choice made her likelier to be scum. -.-

[Amrun]

Cute!

[Amrun]

I have made three arbitrary scumreads and fluffed up the thread with 20 random posts. I am contributing.

No, that's not all I have to say about the game, but it is all I have to say to you.

BESIDES THAT

Vote: 0copper

[Amrun]

Not exactly sheeping Hoopla - close, though. I was feeling uncomfortable about you but unsure what to do with it. Hoopla, who knows your scum game better, suspected you for the sameish reasons making my belly twinge.

In the meantime, VitaminR convinced me that I don't want to lynch him today, but I didn't have anywhere else I really wanted to put my vote but I wanted to do something with it. Seeing what you would do was as good as any and better than most.

Between then and the time I unvoted you, you came back and said you'd been away and Copper moved up on my suspect list. It was a better vote, so I moved.

Why does that progression give you the impression it gave? I don't follow.

[Amrun]

I said the sameISH reasons. For me, it was that you started off with a bang and then seemed to be coasting. I voted for you to see if you were paying attention/around enough tp bother asking you questions - you weren't, which answered a question in and of itself, so when I saw abetter place for my vote, I moved it. I don't really care if you lke that reason or not.

Copper: what you quoted of me referred to Zito, not you - and if you are going to remain anonymous, I am going to treat all "I'm sorry we did this scummy thing; that was my other head" as excuses for scum backtracking.

[Amrun]

I view the latest post as scummy because they said they strive to post like one player and then all of a sudden as soon as 1 or 2 people start to suspect them, they are blaming stuff on other heads.

[Amrun]

er, to be fair, whichever head of Copper it was that posted the one before last did clearly state that he was going solo for that post due to the other heads being inactive on weekends. So, like... I'm not actually sure how you could call it excuses for backtracking, unless you think Copper lied about it in the first place.

pS: I swear Equinox stalks this, hitting refresh every other minute to find the perfect opportunity. Way too good at this.

No, that wasn't it - he wasn't explicitly disagreeing with another head. It wasn't the part where they said, "One head says this, but I say this." That part is okay. It was the part where "one of our heads is fencesitting" basically and the wording surrounding that that reeked distancing from their own posts in a non-specific way that I did not like.

[Amrun]

Herp derp. A) I wasn't thinking about daytalk there. The same discussions could happen pre-game. B) even if Ihad been THIS IS A NIGHTLESS GAME.

In CES' mind, knowing the set up is a scumtell mmkay.

HOWEVER, I feel better about his alignment now that I can follow his thoughts a bit more.

[Amrun]

My post does not suggest that.

Even if it did, this game is nightless. Lol

[Amrun]

Where does my post say WHEN the mafia would be talking? It doesn't.

[Amrun]

When the comment was made, I was thinking of re-game thery conversation about how to optomize the set-iup; I assumed that when the game started it would be more about individual players.

So I know what you are saying I was implying isn't true because it's entirely irrelevant to what I was thinking about.

[Amrun]

My reads are in flux, as is normal for any first day. I don't really care how that looks to you.

My top three suspects are Copper, zmuffin, and Papa Zito at the moment.

[Amrun]

I understand Hoopla's point of view, but she is wrong. I knew that I would look wishy washy with the vote hopping - and I didn't, and still don't, care.

I want my vote to be on scum, and if I have to move it to get it there, that s okay with me.

Hoopla needs to re-examine the scum motivation for acting as I have, but until then, I have a question for her: what is your opinion of twistedspoon?i

[Amrun]

Also, have you ever played with town Zito, Hoopla?

[Amrun]

V/LA for an indefinite period of time. My father had a heart attack. I will probabably post and maybe even a lot, depending on the amount of distraction I want, but I might disappear for a coupe of days and wanted to make everyone aware.

I'm sorry to hear that, Amrun. Best wishes to your father for his health. (Equinox)

[Amrun]

There is no nk this game, muffin - and I think you know that.

Am I still being lynched? Someone keep me updated so I can post some reads before I go.

[Amrun]

Zito, why did you say Hoopla doesn't know your town meta?

[Amrun]

Hoopla, not sure why asking Vitamin a question is "finding a scumtell.". It could have been, but his answer satisfied me. That part of your case is a real stretch. What was Vitamin's part in thix exchange, do you think?

When you created the game, did you consider optimal scum strategy?

[Amrun]

But how does Vitamin play in? You didn't answer my question.

[Amrun]

Yes. Are you?

[Amrun]

NS replaced out of other games, including one in which he was obvtown, so, probably that is a bad assumption - but malpsbbhewdhhd has not inspired confidence in me.

CES, show where I said Vitamin's answer was scummy. Hint: it never happened because it wasn't - and by that time, I was no longer seriously considering Vitamin for a suspect anyway, but wanted to make sure his answer to the question I asked him lined up with his professed thought processes. They did.

[Amrun]

The reason for voting him in the first place - but as you snipped out, his explanations of it make sense and I don't think scum would have stuck to their guns quite so much in that situation. But clearly I found the non voting scummy or I wouldsnt have voted for Vitamin at all. The response was not scummy. In looking through his ISO, I found that he mentioned he'd found a tell but wanted to see reactions, and this mention came after the post of Rory's he later cited. This is all consistent. While looking for that, I noticed the thing I quoted and asked him a question, but the answer was in line. How is this rocket science?

[Amrun]

Which were my bad scum games - out of curiosity?

It's pretty hard to decide if someone is lurking or not until at least a couple of IRL days have passed, especially after ns came under pressure. In the past, NS non-town just totally disappears and/or gives up under pressure (see Jim's Mafia where he played as Shattered Viewpoint and Cuuthulhufish for references of past games I've played with him where NS displayed this behavior, links in my wiki). NS came under pressure here and duked it out - quite different.

Just lynch me already. I should care more but I can't. It's more beneficial for town to keep me alive even if just to see if scum nominate me tomorrow and who with me - but I don't have the energy to convince you all of that. My life is too stressful to care right now.

[Amrun]

Answer (in my opinion): no, or at least not often. And the only vote I have made in this game that can be construed as sheeping is the PZ vote, but ask yourself if I would do something that could be construed that way as scum. Calling all of my votes sheeps is a large amount of misrep.

Mini 1120 was my first game on MS that I played from start to finish (not as a replacement) and my third overall and my first as scum. Sure I stumbled, but it was still a perfect victory. Mini 1141 I was the last scum alive and lost to a pair of neighbors in LyLo - not my best play, certainly, but calling it bad is a stretch.

I don't really care if you see my play as bad or not, but I am struggling to understand the relevance of this line of questioning / bringing up this subject.

What you seem to be doing is trying to correlate my "bad" play here - which is entirely objective - with "bad" play as mafia, but it seems you went through my records with this in mind, rather than just seeing what is there and THEN reaching a conclusion.

What do you think of my play as town? Did you look?

[Amrun]

Coincidentally voting after Hoopla votes a couple of times does not mean I am sheeping Hoopla. In particular, it is very unfair to say that I sheeped Hoopla with my NS vote; rather, it is closer to the truth to state that Hoopla sheeped me, as I started the questioning of NS and pursued NS aggressively before Hoopla ever did. That my vote remained on PZ for other reasons and didn't switch until after Hoopla placed a vote is coincidental.

Just as with the NS vote, there is context for each and every other vote - even granting you that the second PZ vote was sheeping, which is not an assessment I agree with personally. PZ has confused me from his first post onward, and I do not think considering Hoopla's opinions when she just won a game with him as scum is sheeping.

So yes, saying all I've done is sheep Hoopla is a blatant misrep.

[Amrun]

Just do it and stop wasting my time, then. Prepare to be disappointed, though - or as I have been beginning to suspect, Hoopla will not be disappointed as scum, but zmuffin and ces will probably be disappointed.

Let me get together a reads list, though my level of attention to this and all games is not good right now due to the circumstances, so it won't be as reliable a list as usual.

[Amrun]

Hoopla
Coppe
Papa Zitor
Rory
Malpasc
Zmuffin
CES
VitaminR
Fenchurch
Twistedspoon

I think that is everyone.

[Amrun]

Yes, sorry.

[Amrun]

I did quite a bit of shifting, yes. I'll do explanation when and if I have time, but everyone keeps forgetting that I am v/la.

Hoopla is my biggest shift, obviously. I keep flip flopping on her, and I have trouble reading her in general. The way she pushed me (and others) on the surface seems okay, but something about it rubs me the wrong way. I feel more like she is making cases and creating scenarios in which to trap people rather than genuinely probing alignment. On paper, she looks fine, but her posts are beginning to strike me as disingenuous.

[Amrun]

Your heads have played with me, Copper?

I'm flailing? How, exactly?

[Amrun]

Because I am not scum herpaderp

[Amrun]

Ces and vitamin are brothers? Had no idea.

Vote: Papa Zito

A marginally more viable wagon.

[Amrun]

Vote: Papa Zito

A marginally more viable wagon.

Is this prompted by anything in his last post? If not, then what?

His points 2 and 3 on me are both bad, especially point 3. They look impressive, but don't make any sense.

But the more compelling reason is just what I said: it is a more viable wagon and I would like to not be lynched today.


I'm also a bit annoyed that maldfkja;ldk called me a "policy lynch," even beyond the hypocrisy inherent. Upon second reading, this implies that he knows I am town.

[Amrun]

I think your wagon probably has more mileage. I have no objections to either.

[Amrun]

Everyone state your preference between a zito and malshhja lynch.

[Amrun]

Cute.

I'm doing my best to make connections with everyone in some way or another for my eventual flip. It's in your best interest to let me unless you're scum.

[Amrun]

The answer to that is obviously Zito, Fenchurch, hence my vote.

Making everyone take a stance on my lynch before it happens isn't something scum would benefit more from, so I don't know what you mean.

I don't think that "towntell" is a towntell here.

[Amrun]

I already explained Hoopla. PZ is mostly gut so there's not much to explain. I have said time and time again that I don't have time to do more than stay afloat right now and people still expect novels.

[Amrun]

Sorry for my abominal play this game, all. All my games suffered in this time period.

I am glad I managed to get pretty decent reads anyway. Fenchurch, I was surprised you were scum.

Hoopla, you snaked me so completely in PYP that I am paranoid about you now.

I am glad town could pull this one off in the end and was satisfied to see PZ lynched and flip scum.