Mini1147-Royal Mafia at the Round Table (Game Over!)

[Duplicity]

Actually, I'll post one right now:

You guys just picked me up and ripped me in half.
If I don't hammer, I could be called scum for not lynching or stalling.
If I do hammer, I could be called scum for not having an opinion of my own and using the excuse of "They told me to".
Don't know whether to hammer now or not. If I hammer, I'll do it tomorrow.

That's from day 2 just before NE self-hammers. With this whole bus between TS and NE obviously being pre-planned, I don't see why pros-scum would fence-sit with a teammate at L-1.

Also, I think I forgot something in my last post:

VOTE: Locke Lamora

[farside22]

I'm not going to be on later. I looked at Pro's newbie game. At first read I thought okay this guy talked more, but as I read it more indepth it pretty much was what was in this game. He didn't really say much in the newbie game I looked into.
I can't forsee TS trying to do a weak bus on Pro when there is no reason to.

vote: LL

[neil1113]

Vote Count:
Day Five

Locke Lamora

(2): Duplicity, Farside22

Duplicity

(0):

farside22

(0):

Prosaurus

(0):

No Lynch

(0):

Not Voting

(2): Locke Lamora, Prosaurus

V/LA

(0):

Prodding:

(0):

With

4

alive, it takes

3

to Lynch.

Deadline

for Day Five is

4:00 PM EST 06/21/11, One Day Away!!!!!

[Locke Lamora]

First of all, unvote. Someone.

Duplicity: apparently I have to point this out again. All game we've been saying 'why would Prosaurus-scum do that?' and that we don't see scum motivation from Prosaurus. If he's playing badly, why is the assumption that he's playing badly as town? It's one thing to say 'hey Prosaurus, we're bussing tomorrow'. It's a completely different thing for Prosaurus, who has never played scum before, to actually know what to do in that situation. For some reason we're willing to put his bad play down to clueless town, but we're expecting a higher level of play from Prosaurus if he were to be scum.

Farside: not only was Prosaurus posting more in that newbie game, he was trying to prod other people into contributing. In this game, the longer it's gone on, the less he's been able to muster an opinion. In the other game he was far more proactive, he actually bothered to comment on the events of the game and he even questioned other players. Here he's been passive to the extreme.

As for your TS point: what's the reason for the weak push if Prosaurus is town? I've already pointed out how nobody wanted to lynch Pro. Given the state of the game, it makes no sense to keep pushing a line of reasoning that even TS has previously abandoned because it's quite obviously nonsense.

I really don't know what to think any more. The vast majority of today's action has been me doing all the work reading back and people have just been responding to say why other people can't be scum. Frankly, it's maddening, and I think if anyone was actually analysing the game with any level of objectivity, it would be quite obvious I'm the least likely to be buddies with TS. What are the reasons to lynch me? PoE based on flawed, inconsistent reasoning? The fact that I pushed harder on TS on D4 rather than D3? EA's NE points are the only half-decent thing I've seen brought up against this slot for weeks, and they're completely outweighed by the fact that EA attacked the scum roleblocker with a vig shot in play. As for my play, I don't think I've ever worked this hard as town. I pushed a lynch on TS when a confirmed townie didn't want to lynch him, I've been working hard to figure this game out ever since I got in it and I've put more effort into this situation than all three of you put together. So I'm town, we're screwed and I really hope that EA comes back when it's over to help me rant some more about this game.

[Duplicity]

I'm currently on my way to my university final exam with this game page saved on my laptop and no internet connection so I'll attempt to post it the second I arrive. My unvote is only temporary and it's likely to go back up later however I don't want any possible blitz occuring while I'm not even able to acess this game.

Unvote

For the record - I won't actually have time to read this thread upon entering university, just submiting this post meaning it's entirely possible that the hammer has already occured rendering this post useless, if so then I want to say regardless of the result I had a very enjoyable game and I apologize if I am indeed incorrect.

Locke, don't get me wrong I highly appreciate the copious amount of effort you've put forth throughout this game however I'm unsure how you can attempt to say that we're not looking at the situation objectively and playing stupid. You yourself yesterday openely stated that Twistedspoon and Prosarus were unlikely to be partners and have now turned around to push the opposite today. Sure, there's a chance that you might be correct in it being Pros but place yourself in our position before you attempt to vent and act frustrated at us. We've had a strong town-read on Pros throughout a large portion of the game, indendant of Twistedspoon. Now with Twistedspoons flip our belief that Prosarus is mafia decreases even more while viewing Farside as almost obvtown. To further that of our vote on you is placed by more than just PoE, Gorilla provided excessive reasoning in the final post of the last page however you seem content to dismiss that instantly.

The point you've placed forward in regards to you being Twistedspoons least likely partner is completely incorrect, your reasoning behind it is highly flawed and involves EA's slight suspicion and recommendation that Twistedspoon gets vigged in a position where it was near certain that Javert was going to stick with his inital instict and shoot Ender. Instead of actually presenting reasoning of actions behind Prosarus's play that you believe are scummy you're attempting to push the fact that his play has been anti-town but not scummy.

[Locke Lamora]

See, you've hit on part of why I'm getting annoyed. People keep saying 'I've had a townread on X for ages'. That's not a reason in itself. You had a town read on me earlier in the game, and now you don't. Quilford had a townread on TS for virtually the entire time he was in the game, and it was dead wrong. It's as though people are refusing to consider Pro as scum just because they didn't think he was scum earlier in the game. Why don't people think he's scum? Because he's played cluelessly, he's not manipulative, he doesn't look as though he has any scum motivation. Because he says things that you think scum would never say. Because he doesn't do what you'd expect scum to do e.g. bus NE or TS on D2. All of these things are based on one idea: that Pro would actually know how to play scum. And the more I read the game, the more I wonder why Prosaurus can't just be clueless scum.

I acknowledged that Gorilla had put forward some reasoning that actually makes a case. I believe we covered some of this previously in the game when Rhinox brought it up. I see where he's coming from with NE. I really don't buy that EA continuing to push on TS after everyone else has jumped off is a scumtell. EA's not stupid. If he was scum with 'inside information', he's not going to keep pushing on his buddy when he has a great opportunity to unvote. EA pushed that wagon, and he pushed it hard. What Gorilla's essentially saying here is that he treated NE and TS completely differently; that he made a weak vote on NE and backed down quickly, but led the TS wagon and refused to unvote even when everyone else was backing off. So I don't see how both things are compatible with Gorilla's idea of scum interactions. It seems to me he's having it both ways.

There's also one point that I highly disagree with in his analysis of D2; the idea that scum would know they'd 'look good' regardless of which wagon they backed. Bussing NE was worthless on D2. Once a cop claims a guilty on someone, you don't get towncred for being on that wagon. The very fact that he wants to lynch me is proof that an NE vote on D2 would be completely redundant for the sake of bussing. TS was the only one who got any towncred from being on that wagon, and several players were still seriously considering him as scum after his flip. As for not directly arguing with EA...I can't even begin to describe how contradictory this is to the idea that scum came out of the gate planning to bus.

What about my question to Farside? Why did TS start D4 by going back on himself and saying 'hey guys, Prosaurus might still have slipped' when it was obvious that no-one was going to lynch him based on that? What's the motivation for doing that if Prosaurus is town?

[Locke Lamora]

I meant to say that I know it's a difficult position, and it's just hard to contextualise it from anyone's position other than your own when you know your lynch is going to lose town the game. Thanks for unvoting, anyway, and good luck with the exam.

[Locke Lamora]

Might as well finish up with the quotes I already pulled. After my previous question about Rhinox being NKed, Prosaurus comes up with this:

Heh. I reckon what's happening with the night kill is LL/FS (or maybe only one of them) has done this NK so they can say scum are trying to frame them. If it's only one of them it's good for scum because then a townie will be lynched if they're caught.

So now he goes from not having any thoughts on the NK from actually using it to point at me and Farside.

Another post that reinforces my Duplicity read:

Unfortunatly I don't have the time needed to fully go into the case at the current moment however I will briefly go into what I came across in my re-read and what I discussed with G. There was an incident about half way through day one that everyone has seemed to have forgotten.

This incident involved EA believing that Farside was editing and manipulating her posts and occured in Post #147, Post #149, Post #150 and Post #156. I don't see EA screenshotting his partners posts and stating it openely in the thread with knowledge that it could potentially lead towards Farsides mod-kill and a major inconvienance towards his scum-team. This means I don't see any possible way that Farside can be scum with LL. Considering that the only thing G and I both agree upon is our solid town read on Prosarus this means that Twistedspoon absouletly has to be mafia.

Vote: Twistedspoon

I'm incredibly comfortable with this vote, excluding the fact that he's essentially confirmed mafia via PoE (Process of Elimination) he is also attempting to skeet his way through this day without actually attempting to do any scumhunting. He himself has stated that he believes Pros is mafia, quite strongly actually however has not once attempted to convince anyone of this nor has he attempted to state alternate reads he has or what he believes of the fact that Farside wasn't actually lynched yesterday.

I believe LL has gone into his linkages and connection with NE enough that I need-not go into it myself but this is all going to come down to whether or not Quilford is willing to reconsider his incorrect read of Twistedspoon or not. If this lynch does go ahead, without meaning to sound arrogant I believe our slot is likely to bite the night-kill tonight meaning I would rather we not rush through this day until I can have another conversation with G about who we believe the other mafia is - He has a strong FoS towards LL however has been unable to explain it to me without pointing to a awkward bit of interaction from NE to EA on day one which is close to meaningless as it could have just been a subtle attempt at buddying.

The ruling out of the me-Farside team looks as though Duplicity is thinking about connections and possibilities in a very pro-town manner, particularly as it leads directly to a TS vote. I do now note that the 'awkward bit of interaction' is the crux of the case Gorilla made on me, which is amusing in a slightly distressing kind of way.

That read is reinforced with this response to Quilford:

The vote count if anything points towards Farside and my slot rather than LL's so can you explain how that VCA leads you to believe that LL is scum. This honestly is looking like you attempting to avoid posting reasoning or logic behind your gut-read on LL while also avoiding explaining your town-read on Twisted in greater depth.

There's no way I can stand back and observe a lynch on anyone other than Twistedspoon occur without you changing my mind in regards to Twisted or presenting a case that I find reasonable towards LL/Farside since I don't see any legitimate way that Pros is scum.

Duplicity actually tells Quilford that his VCA is wrong and points away from me and towards himself and Farside. Again, it wool have been very easy to go down the path of letting Quilford push my lynch.

I return to Prosaurus here with some (gasp) actual reads:

My reads...
Dup - Town, given me no reason to suspect him.
LL - Scum, read carried over from EA, posted some stuff recently I believe.
FS - Scummy, PoE and stuff, think I posted stuff recently as well.
TS - Scummy, I reckon he coulda bussed and he seemed to not do much D1 if I remember, he didn't D2 either, but I can at least partly understand that.

Will look for my recent reads.

The one that really bothers me here is that Prosaurus now thinks that TS 'coulda bussed'. If you recall (or even bothered to read) my D3 analysis, Prosaurus explicitly said that he didn't see why TS would bus and strongly implied he didn't think he was scum. Now, with no apparent indication of why, he thinks TS might have been bussing. Is it a coincidence now that half the town want to lynch TS? I think not. It's also posts like these that make me think Pro is playing the lazy newb card a little too strong. Read his recently completed newbie. He goes through post by post at times and comments on things by post number. Here it's 'I think he posted stuff recently'. I think he's deliberately trying to look as though he doesn't know what's going on.

This one confounds me a little:

You know what I don't like? TS pushing the least experienced player (Me) to vote LL. If I did that and LL wasn't scum then wouldn't scum quickhammer and town loses? He seems bored, like he just wants the game to hurry up and end. Actually, I don't think LL and TS are both scum, because either scum is voting LL or LL is scum. Does that mean FS is scum with one of those two?

This is...actually kinda accurate. I think that's the first time I've read one of Pro's posts and thought that. Prosaurus is obviously feeling pressurised by TS here, and he doesn't like it. The fact that he says it gives me a gut town read. On the flip side, he also states that he doesn't think TS and I are scum together, an opinion that has conveniently disappeared again today.

Prosaurus challenges again for scummiest post of the game:

I agree that TS hasn't done much in this game, but neither have I. I'd rather play it safe and lynch FS...

So TS has been as useless as Pro, which is an excuse to give him a pass? It's almost as though he's trying to use the towncred he's bought by being spectacularly useless to extend to TS. The 'play it safe' part really bothers me here; it's just opening himself up for an easy wagon hop when he's actually shown no conviction over FS being scum at all - let's not forget that one of the two main points of his case was 'stuff'. Now today he has completely dropped FS, despite the fact that he doesn't seem to understand the implications of TS's 'hammer' and whether it was fake or not, and gone back to me, when he ruled me out just yesterday based on me vs TS.

And that's about it. If you don't believe me by now, there's not much else I can do. I'll continue to fight my corner until deadline, so if anyone has any more questions etc., fire away.

[neil1113]

Vote Count:
Day Five

Locke Lamora

(1): Farside22

Duplicity

(0):

farside22

(0):

Prosaurus

(0):

No Lynch

(0):

Not Voting

(3): Duplicity, Locke Lamora, Prosaurus

V/LA

(0):

Prodding:

(0):

With

4

alive, it takes

3

to Lynch.

Deadline

for Day Five is

4:00 PM EST 06/21/11, 14 hours away!!!!!

[Duplicity]

Locke, it's not that I haven't attempted to re-read through the game attempting to drop the town-read I have on Pros. It's that every time I read through it I have trouble picturing him as the final mafia, furthermore attempting to compare the town-read I had on you prior to yesterday with the town-read I have on Pros is meaingless as the town-read I had on you was heavily reduced by Gorillas suspicion of you.

I read Pros's change of action and reasoning yeseterday in regards to his view on TS as geninue to a degree because he just like and I are used PoE to narrow it down increasing the likelihood that TS was mafia. I'm going to spend the night to mull over it and I should have my thoughts collected and together by morning ie. Several hours before the deadline.

[Duplicity]

This sucks, I'm not even going to be up or online again before the deadline. Gorilla, I know you're going to read this and hate me but the decision and actions are completely up to you now, I'm still leaning towards Locke being the final scum.

[farside22]

I have a feeling the way things are going today is going to end in a no lynch.
LL: Why have you not placed a vote on Pro at his point if he is your strongest scum read? What is your concern that is holding you back?

I'm probably going to die tonight so here is my last minute thoughts.


Dup - obvious town
Pro - the weak push for TS makes no sense for scum in MyLo. Using the WIFOM night kill all looks like a weak attempt to push a mislynch from TS
LL - Scum

[Locke Lamora]

My concern is that Prosaurus doesn't seem to be taking the opportunity to lynch me, which, let's face it, would have been pretty easy to do today. It doesn't look like he's been online, so I guess it's a null-tell, but it just doesn't sit right.

Why do you think you're going to die tonight? Why do you think scum-Locke pushing on TS would make sense for scum in MyLo, but TS pushing on scum-Pro would not?

[neil1113]

Final Vote Count:
Day Five

Locke Lamora

(1): Farside22

Duplicity

(0):

farside22

(0):

Prosaurus

(0):

No Lynch

(0):

Not Voting

(3): Duplicity, Locke Lamora, Prosaurus

V/LA

(0):

Prodding:

(0):

Deadline reached! Night begins as soon as the scene comes.

[neil1113]

The four stood around the table, none wanting to sit due to the tension at the table. There was evil still among them, and they couldn't rest until they were safe. The four look among each other, and their eyes kept glancing back to the noose laying across the table. One of them reached out, and picked up the noose. Looking at one specific person, he attempted to grab them but the others quickly pushed him back.

"No, I don't think he did it." One of them proclaimed, holding back the one from reaching the other.

"But he did! He had too!" the one yelled back! His face showing his disbelief.

"I didn't do it! You're not even really taking in the facts!" claimed the man accused. The fourth one remained quiet, not much to say during the day. They decided to leave the noose there and leave it up to chance, while night dawned upon them. Little did they know the danger they were in for, with the darkness closing in.

Night Five Has Began.

The deadline for Night Five is

2:00 PM EDT 06/23/11

.

[neil1113]

Deadline reached! Scene to come...

[neil1113]

The morning came like a lover waiting on her love to return from war, slowly. The night seemed to drag on and on, but as the sun slowly started to rise, all of the people alive during this day turned and looked at their clocks... 7:00am. Time to arise, and see the damage that was took.

Three of the four met around the table. They looked at each other, the girl was there, the handsome wrestler was there, and the Pro of Mafia was there. But the man with split personality disorder, unfortunately, was not.

All three of them ran to his room, only to see him tied up and bound. Well, that's a relief right? At least he isn't dead! One of them went to untie him, but stopped and quickly turned with a panicked look on his face.

"5 Seconds! Run!"

Suddenly the ticking nose was heard, and all three of the men left the man to talk amongst his personalities as they ran and took cover. Suddenly a huge explosion was heard, and Duplicity, and all his personalities, we're gone. After somewhat searching his room and trying to figure out what stuff was what, they figured out Duplicity had nothing but faith, hope, and love... and a vote.

Duplicity,

Vanilla Town

was

Blown Apart

Night 5.

Day has begun, and the thread is now unlocked.

Deadline

for Day 6 is

3:00 PM EDT 07/07/11.

[Prosaurus]

@LL Yea, I probably would have hammered if I had gotten on.

Anyways, NK was predictable. It changes nothing for me.

[farside22]

@LL Yea, I probably would have hammered if I had gotten on.

Anyways, NK was predictable. It changes nothing for me.

Pro: Why would you have hammered LL?

LL: I honestly thought I would be killed because TS trying to lynch me for the win.

Pro: I would like you views on why you believe LL is scum.
LL: Can you link the game you were refering to Pro. I want to see if it was the same, I only had time to look at one game I saw was over.

[Locke Lamora]

Farside: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=17220. I'll go into more detail about my read on his play in the two games when I get the chance, but I'll let you draw your own conclusions first.

[Prosaurus]

I woulda hammer because I didn't see you being scum. Still don't.
I say LL is scum because;
a) I don't think you're scum
b) I don't remember anything that would make him town (Unlike you)
c) Never liked EA
d) Gut feeling

[Locke Lamora]

Pro: you said earlier in the game that you didn't think I was scum because of the interactions between TS and myself. What changed? What do you think makes Farside town?

[farside22]

mod: V/LA this weekend, will be back Monday

Noted.

I will have to look at that link when I get back.

[Prosaurus]

Well I don't think that TS would do the "I win?" thing on a scumbuddy... I dunno, it might all be WIFOM.

[farside22]

I'm back and I'm going to review a few things.
I think the thing that tears my hair apart the most with Pro is when he post about LL or myself it always sounds wishy washy. He comes up with reasons that read as more of POE then just sits there.
Part of me feels like it's scum waiting for someone to vote without taking a stand.

LL: Do you have a game you replaced in as town or scum or both if you have links to them.