Mini 1193: Hacker's Panic mafia. (Game Over)

[xvart]

EBWOP (forgot to copy from another tab):

It is true. We are neighbors. I've been racking my brain for the life of me about our moderator and his opinions on neighbors since we were in a game together a while back and there were two town neighbors but

Humble didn't say anything definitive about neighbors and alignments other than alignments are unknown

. don did not talk in the neighbor QT at all pre game.

The bolded just makes dons claim worse. He conveniently forgot to mention that he doesn't know his neighbors alignment, which would be an important aspect of a claim, unless you are claiming solely for the sake of trying to make yourself obvtown.

While I agree that his claim was premature I don't necessarily see the reasoning for claiming as scum at that point since at best it sets up a 1v1 at a point where he really wasn't under any real pressure. A vote on don at this point is not the best play at this point because all the evidence is highly circumstantial. If he is scum he'll be caught eventually since we are both under a microscope. For the record, the game I referenced with Humble had three neighbors, all of which were town. The game is here so if anyone wants to look through it feel free.

ok. recieved info back from mod. will explain in detail after xvart answers one question. mod said i could discuss the issue without quoting and that he would neither confirm nor deny anything. so depending on the answer, i should be able to confirm xvart as town or scum regardless of todays outcome.

xvart: please look at your role pm carefully and tell me if there is anything "wrong" with it?

Not that I can tell. Can you be more specific?

xvart piles on a vote. no real reason other than "paramas reaction is town." that seems to be subsrcribing to fallacy "if parama is town, then beck is scum." its page 4

Not at all. My unvote justification was unrelated to my voting of Beck. I voted Beck because I always find it suspicious when people say "ooohh look at all the discussion I generated as a result of me being scummy."

[don_johnson]

Look at your qt link. Anything strange?

[xvart]

Nope.

[bobsnox]

don - OSVs who refuse to have their shot directed by a majority vote when on the verge of being lynched are stupid or scum. Beck was unfortunately the former, but the lynch was still a good one IMO.

xvart - Celebloki may have been certain Beck was SK. Celebloki is not a horrible lynch candidate for today.

[don_johnson]

when i received my pm i opened it, saw i was neighbors with xvart and then went to click on the link to the qt. as i scrolled over it, i notice it said it was a link to the scum qt. i immediately pm'd the mod to say "hey, am i scum? or if not, do you realize you sent me a link to the wrong qt.(paraphrased)" mod pm'd me back and said, "no, you are town and the qt is not a mistake, i just forgot to change the label." so i clicked on the link and day had already started. i ask if yours had the same mistake and you say no. but i'm not going to pm hunt you as i think its a bad idea, and if you are town it could end up in two mislynches. you seem to be looking at events objectively.

unvote, vote: coolskins

day 1 wagon is a tough one. snox is reading town today as well as xvart. parama wagon seems like a gamble. i'd like more input from him. in any case, i don't think the mod mistake is relevant at this point. i'm willing to accept my neighbor as town for now.

Not necessarily since scum control the night killing and if nobody picks it up. Like I said in the QT I might have only saw the breadcrumb because I knew we were neighbors; I'm generally terrible at picking up breadcrumbs. Did anyone else pick it up?

i don't think the crumb is all that obvious, however, if you were to flip neighbor, i think it would be much more clear. also, someone would have to claim neighbor once one flips, no? all i'm saying, is that the breadcrumb is more beneficial from town than it is from scum. but whatever. i think skins continual push against me before i've had a chance to even read the thread is a bit scummy, not to mention the fact that he had me paired with beck and beck has flipped town. i also think his initial case on beck is a bit of a stretch, and he later seems suspicious of the wagon, yet doesn't get off. in other news...

don - OSVs who refuse to have their shot directed by a majority vote when on the verge of being lynched are stupid or scum. Beck was unfortunately the former, but the lynch was still a good one IMO.

xvart - Celebloki may have been certain Beck was SK. Celebloki is not a horrible lynch candidate for today.

it is scums interest to lynch an sk early. so yeah, i can agree with that point, but i don't think we can condemn blok based on that at this point. after reading the thread, several of you could have halted that wagon but chose not to, and surye is confirmed, so yeah. i'd rather lynch skins, parama would be the wild card selection as he is a hard one to read. and no, the lynch was a horrible horrible lynch. beck claimed power and was lynched quick and early. not sweet at all. but whatever. who besides blok would you like to see swing?

[bobsnox]

deselby

[Humble Poirot]

kondi2424 has been prodded

kondi2424 accepted the replacement offer I gave him.
Looking for a replacement.

[bobsnox]

don - your thoughts on deselby?

[don_johnson]

i have to look at it closer, but i think i see your point about his earlier reaction to the skins vote. could easily be a chainsaw defense if i'm reading it right(only read an iso of deselby). would you consider joining the skins wagon? it seems the two are connected by your own evidence. i don't know if deselby himself has enough content to condemn him alone.

[Haschel Cedricson]

Sorry, guys, found myself up in Portland with significantly less Internet access than I expected. Getting caught up now.

[Haschel Cedricson]

Alright, first off, everybody needs to stop saying that Beck was a VI, because he wasn't. Second, I 100% agree with Beck's initial stance on not letting the town direct the vig kill. Beck was the town's biggest target; from his perspective he had absolutely no reason to trust everybody else's scumdar. People arguing that Beck was being anti-town here are scummy.

In context, Beck's reversal after people made it clear that he would get lynched makes perfect sense. Powerroles can't do shit if they get lynched before they can use their power. It occasionally behooves the vanilla townie to accept their lynch as an inevitability, but rarely the powerrole. People who are claiming to not understand that are scummy.

I did not like Celebloki's hammer at all, for obvious reasons. I don't care for Bob's response to my question about the hammer, though. I expected I would get an opinion about how quickly the hammer came, especially since several people like myself, Hrezs, and deselby hadn't adequately discussed the Beckwagon. Instead bob repeated an earlier feeling he had about the comment Celebloki made prior to hammering. I acknowledge that with the way I phrased the question bobsnox technically did not dodge my question, but I find it odd that he had no opinion on the speed of the hammer either way.

don_johnson is obvtown and should not be lynched today.

The case on deselby is incredibly weak, and deselby is acting appropriately. This, in turn, makes bob's continued pushing of deselby bizarre.

Bob has posited a scumteam with CooLskins and deselby. Parama has posited a scumteam with CooLskins and Hrezs. Each of them is voting for the non-CooLskins partner. This strikes me as odd; assuming each of them is town, they should think that they have an opportunity to convince another player to lynch one of their scumreads, and a CooLskins wagon should start. I'm sensing a scumteam with Parama and bob that is trying to probe the town's opinion before making a move.

I'm going to

Unvote, Vote: bobsnox

based on my feelings after the reread, but Parama is a close second.

[Hrezs]

day 1:

I agree about Don. If Beck weren't so scummy I would vote Don right now.

Don't like this post, especially because bob didn't actually say why he thought Beck was scummy. Also because Beck flipped town
Mostly for the first point

don't like bobs #106 either, feels like he's trying to add fuel to the fire against beck


not a fan of kondi. He came in, voted Beck to follow Parama, then asked for a claim.


Don't like Parama's #127 'i dont care if you're vig ill lynch you anyways'
very anti town


bobsnox #136
doesn't believe Beck's claim, but unvotes him to let him shoot
..then votes him a again.. a person telling you to lynch them isn't a scumtell

Unvote
Vote bobsnox

[Hrezs]

ninja'd... by 40 minutes...

town points for haschel for having the same top 2 scum targets

[Humble Poirot]

* Antihero replaces kondi2424

Votecount coming soon. - HP

[Humble Poirot]

Those in danger of being exposed #7:

Hrezs (1)

- Parama,

deselby (1)

- bobsnox,

don_johnson (2)

- CooLskins, Zodiark13,

Parama (1)

- xvart,

bobsnox (3)

- deselby, Haschel Cedricson, Hrezs,

kondi2424 (1)

- Celebloki,

CooLskins (1)

- don_johnson,

Not Voting (1)

- kondi2424,

With 11 Alive it takes 6 to lynch.

V/LAs:

Parama: 26/6-29/6.

[bobsnox]

CoolSkins is more protown than deselby, thus my deselby vote over Coolskins. To answer Don's question, though, yes, I am good with a Coolskins lynch. I would prefer deselby because, contrary to recent thoughts from the above posters, his response to my FOS (IT WAS AN FOS FOR GOODNESS SAKE) is trash and he has not responded well since.

There is a reason I seem like a buddy with Parama, btw. He is not today's lynch and neither am I. He may be at a later time but we need a lot more evidence to go off of.

doesn't believe Beck's claim, but unvotes him to let him shoot
..then votes him a again..

Old argument is old. Dude said fuck you guys if you think I'm letting you direct my kill. That's blatantly anti-town. Celebloki summed it up perfectly in his hammer post.

He flailing. Got caught, claimed and thought he saved himself, got arrogant, now that the pressure is reapplied he becomes a team player again in the blink of an eye. He's just trying to appease.

Obviously we were wrong about Beck but that doesn't make him protown or any worse of a lynch. It was only a bad lynch in that we lost a PR. It was not a bad lynch in terms of appropriate actions given the circumstances. I am not backing down on that point

[Haschel Cedricson]

Old argument is old. Dude said fuck you guys if you think I'm letting you direct my kill. That's blatantly anti-town.

"Hmm, the town is performing so poorly that either their scumdar is horrible or the scum are managing to lead the town. I'm sure their choice of night target will be an excellent one!"

Beck had every reason to tell you guys to fuck yourselves; he knew 100% that he couldn't trust the groups' judgment. I would have either done the same thing, or maybe said "I will kill (SPECIFIC PLAYER) tonight.

[bobsnox]

That only works in hindsight knowing he was the OSV.

[Haschel Cedricson]

That only works in hindsight knowing he was the OSV.

HE knew he was the OSV, and he acted accordingly.

[bobsnox]

That was helpful

WE thought he was SCUM and acted accordingly. He was only going to be alive for one night after he claimed and we gave him an appropriate manner in which to use his shot. That was his only option as far as I was concerned. He could have chosen a better way to convince us otherwise but he reacted with craptastic anti-town rage and paid for it. Now you're trying to blame the rest of us for not believing Beck's claim after his retarded reaction? Good old hindsight bias and finger pointing.

[bobsnox]

I'm reviewing everyone's ISO to see what I've missed. Would you guys look over Zodiark's ISO and tell me what you see in 181 and 242? There is something very inconsistent that I completely missed before ISOing.

UNVOTE: deselby
VOTE: Zodiark

We need to focus on nailing individual scum and less on determining scum teams at this early stage. I have a tendency to start grouping people together as suspects early in the game and it almost never pans out well.

Good lynches / wagons I will join

:
deselby
Coolskins
Hrezs

Do not lynch today

:
bobsnox
Parama
Haschel (not today - I disagree with his comments completely but I don't see a lot of scumminess in them)

We need to hear a lot from Kondi's slot. I'm null on don right now. Same with xvart. I have no obvtown reads which bothers me a lot. This is when I normally start calling everyone scum and failing, so I'm trying to avoid doing that.

[Haschel Cedricson]

That was helpful

WE thought he was SCUM and acted accordingly. He was only going to be alive for one night after he claimed and we gave him an appropriate manner in which to use his shot. That was his only option as far as I was concerned. He could have chosen a better way to convince us otherwise but he reacted with craptastic anti-town rage and paid for it. Now you're trying to blame the rest of us for not believing Beck's claim after his retarded reaction? Good old hindsight bias and finger pointing.

I'm blaming Parama for not considering the claim at all and the rest of you for thinking his reaction was retarded. You yourself pointed out his claim was testable; there is literally no reason Beck should have been lynched as quickly as he was.

I'm reviewing everyone's ISO to see what I've missed. Would you guys look over Zodiark's ISO and tell me what you see in 181 and 242? There is something very inconsistent that I completely missed before ISOing.

I see it and wholeheartedly endorse this avenue of query. Explain yourself, Zodiark.

[Antihero]

I've been looking at this game for that past 2 hours and the only person who I thought was really scummy was Surye.

That's a sign I need to walk away from this and come back tomorrow.

[Parama]

Sup. Skimmed.
I see nobody suspects Hrezs except me.
This is either a sign that I'm crazy or that I hit the nail on the head. Probably a combination of both.
Actual reading will come later.

[bobsnox]

Sup. Skimmed.
I see nobody suspects Hrezs except me.
This is either a sign that I'm crazy or that I hit the nail on the head. Probably a combination of both.
Actual reading will come later.

he's on my good lynch list.

Haschel - thanks for reviewing it. I think I found something good. We'll see.