TV Mafia Game Over - Scum Win

[Rodion]

/confirm

[Rodion]

Vote: David Xanatos

French people are harmless: check about every war they ever "fought" in.

On vezok: I agree that a mass nameclaim is neutral at best for town and it consequently should not be done. I don't think his request warrants a speedlynch, though (I don't know whether people are serious about it or it is just part of the jokevote stage), but a pressure for him to fullclaim seems good.

[Rodion]

On vezok: I agree that a mass nameclaim is neutral at best for town and it consequently should not be done. I don't think his request warrants a speedlynch, though (I don't know whether people are serious about it or it is just part of the jokevote stage),

but a pressure for him to fullclaim seems good.

In regards to the bolded … um whut????

UNVOTE: Vezok
VOTE: Rodion

Why, if you think pressuing him to fullclaim (which is a scumtastic idea in RVS) is a good plan did you vote DX?

DX vote was a textbook jokevote.

Talking about vezok is my opinion on why he shouldn't be speedlynched for merely suggesting a mass nameclaim. Moreover, the suggestion that he fullclaims is a way to deter that idea. Even if you think he is scummy, why go for a speedlynch before hearing him claim (I see no pro-town reasoning behind this idea)? I said this because of this post:

VOTE: vezok

Name one thing anti-town about a quick lynch on vezok before he's able to post.

This is my first non-marathon game on this site and I don't know any of you. I was not sure whether you were seriously planning to speedlynch vezok or not.

Wait, vezok suggested it? I didn't even realise that. It also has nothing to do with why a vezok wagon is a good thing.

There is one pro-town reason I can think of that a vezok wagon doesn't need to happen, though... andrew is in this game. And an andrew wagon is just as good.

I'm conflicted now.

Now it seems that it WAS a joke. That means people are not seriously considering to kill him so quickly. Consequently, the fullclaim idea as a necessary step before the lynch, while still a valid point, can go to the backburner as we continue looking for more leads.

Magna/Vifam - careful there, as leading mislynches against new players that theoretically shouldn't know how to defend themselves properly is considered a scum tell where I come from.

Unvote.

[Rodion]

Talking about vezok is my opinion on why he shouldn't be speedlynched for merely suggesting a mass nameclaim. Moreover, the suggestion that he fullclaims is a way to deter that idea. Even if you think he is scummy, why go for a speedlynch before hearing him claim (I see no pro-town reasoning behind this idea)? I said this because of this post:

So are you saying him full-claiming well before he gets anywhere near L-1 is a good way to deter a ‘speedlynch’? I want to be clear on this point.

I never said "fullclaim now". I said: "if you're really going to pursue this speedlynch idea over his unfortunate comment regarding the mass nameclaim, at least give him the opportunity to full claim".

Let's see:

1 - There was game talk in the confirmation stage.
2 - After the game started, he got 4 votes in 42 minutes.
3 - One of the 4 players clearly mentioned he wanted a speedlynch . It is now established that he was joking, but I was not sure because:
a - I'm new here and I don't know how you guys roll.
b - this game is unique because people talked about relevant stuff before confirm stage (never seen this before in the other site), so it lead me to consider the possibility that the vezok wagon was not jokevote (or RVS, that seems to be how you call jokevotes here), but a serious one.
4 - I was about to sleep and have no computer access for the next 11-12 hours.

So, yes, I thought he could have been hammered by the time I got to the computer again and considered that pointing to the necessity of hearing from him first was good.

This is my first non-marathon game on this site and I don't know any of you. I was not sure whether you were seriously planning to speedlynch vezok or not.

Why, regardless of this, are you worried about a ‘speedlynch’ when he never acquired more than 4 votes?

Read above.

Magna/Vifam - careful there, as leading mislynches against new players that theoretically shouldn't know how to defend themselves properly is considered a scum tell where I come from.

1. Slight Appeal to Emotion (in classifying yourself as a ‘mislynch’) noted.
2. Where do you come from? Do you regularly assume that recently signed up players there have no Mafia experience by which to “defend themselves”. On your site is it standard procedure to never apply pressure to new players as a scum-hunting measure?

1 - Well, I am a mislynch. Period. Granted, scum would claim to be town as well, but I'm not appealing to emotion as much as stating a fact, fact being "I am town".
2a - ConquerClub. It's actually a site for the board game "Risk", but the forums are big and there is a mafia subforum. Here's the link to the subforum:
http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=213

My name there is the same, Rodion (Rex avatar from Toy Story) - I'm actually new there as well (as far as mafia goes), I probably have around 3 completed and 5 ongoing games of experience.

2b - Yes, we regularly assume that recent signed up players have no mafia experience, unless they claim otherwise.

2c - Obviously, roles are given out randomly and new players are not "immune" to being scum, so they can and should be pressured. Problem is, if you don't have strong evidence against the "newbies", making a tempest in a teapot seems like an attempt to go for the easy lynch and, as such, is viewed as a scum tell.

[Rodion]

I never said "fullclaim now". I said: "if you're really going to pursue this speedlynch idea over his unfortunate comment regarding the mass nameclaim, at least give him the opportunity to full claim".

That's not what you said. Whether or not you meant that, it's not the message people got from your original post. Mafia's based on communication, saying one thing then claiming that you meant something different when called out on it makes it look like you're trying to give excuses for your behavior.

Tl;dr of my first post:

"speedlynch bad, fullclaim good".

You're free to interpret how you see fit, but to me it is clear that I only suggested a fullclaim as a means to deter the speedlynch idea.

[Rodion]

2b - Yes, we regularly assume that recent signed up players have no mafia experience, unless they claim otherwise.

Well here on MS if you are playing outside “The Road to Rome” it is pretty much standard practice to assume you have sufficent skill levels to play with the ‘big boys’.

Sounds reasonable.

2c - Obviously, roles are given out randomly and new players are not "immune" to being scum, so they can and should be pressured.

Problem is, if you don't have strong evidence against the "newbies",

making a tempest in a teapot seems like an attempt to go for the easy lynch and, as such, is viewed as a scum tell.

Bolded for emphasis – the thread has barely been open 72 hours. What level of ‘strong evidence’ are you expecting at this stage of the game. Pressuring players is part of developing reads.

I was just warning you that the way you pressured the new guy over peanuts could backfire. And it sort of did, as can be seen in #98. http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 4#p3237644

@Rodion, I think we've past the vezok bandwagon. If you had any final thoughts/readings of how certain players responded, care to share them before moving on? Also, where do you feel your vote is best placed at the moment?

I'll try.

Killerjester: if the Vezok wagon was RVS (at least according to MoI), why were you interested in the reason why David Xanatos apparently disregarded/skimmed MoI's invitation? It is scummy not to sheep someone's RVS and come up with a joke of his own?

Pappums' number 3 in #165 is a clear WIFOM (there were many others by many people, but that one stuck out for some reason). Scum could actually help the town with a good plan in order to get town cred. And the more people think that scum won't do it, the more likely scum is to try. Or not.

How are post restrictions done around here? It is possible that Zinger is being forced to act the way he is acting? If a post restriction of this kind is unlikely, he is among the scummiest in my radar simply because he's posting without contributing.

Vifam seems scummy as well. He sheeped MoI when he voted me, then sort of sheeped MoI again as far as pressuring Marco for the lack of an early RVS vote and then sheeped Pinky and the Brain when he voted Jilly. He also lacked coherence in #99 when he said he didn't believe me but gave me the benefit of the doubt anyway.

Granted, I don't know a lot about hydras, but I dislike Zelink not disclosing who he/they is/are. Seems like they don't want to be metaed so they are not caught. If you're town in this particular game, why not simply tell us who you are and make another hydra for future scum games?

As far as voting, I'm inclined to go for Vifam, but not before a vote count since he has been getting a lot of votes lately and I don't want to accidentally hammer before we get a claim.

I have some questions for whoever wants to aid me. Thanks in advance!

1 - What's a policy lynch?
2 - Pvt Slate mentioned he's "EST". Did he reference his timezone or something else? If the former, is it common to mention your timezone?
3 - How common are mafia busdrivers here? Zelink said he'd vig Zinger, should we be worried that a mafia busdriver redirects the kill into someone else? I'm still confused as to whether Zelink made a joke when he claimed vig or not and his "sarcasm" was only present when he replied to Oversoul's weird post (Oversoul asked the claimed vig to protect someone - I think it was simply a poor phrasing and he actually asked the doc to protect the vig - or the person the vig promised to kill). Also, if the vig claim is serious, Zelink, would you also name claim so we test the theory on the randomness of roles (a theory you mentioned yourself in #122)?
4 - What's a "PL" (mentioned by Vifam in #145)?
5 - What's an ISO post? It's probably your personal post count, but what does it stand for?
6 - Are vezok and Andew common targets of RVS wagons? Why?

[Rodion]

You can stay in character, but I'd likes your thoughts on..well anything that's happened so far.

Fair enough.

ZeL1nk is clearly holding grudges across from a previous game. He really shouldn't do that, and it is definitely not helpful to the town if he carries on with that behavior.

I think Vifam has some explaining to do. He looks like he is trying to find excuses to point fingers, which is what scum do. He said he didn't like my reaction to 'being shot', well I want to know why he didn't like it, and what would be a more acceptable reaction. Should I have approved of ZeL1nk's decision to try to shoot me tonight?

Peregrine might have been counter-claiming me (I am not 100% sure, his post is vague), but if he was indeed attempting to counter-claim me, it is a lie and he is scum.

Everything else is a null-tell, but I will be targeting ZeLink tonight.

That is enough from me for now.

Can you post a link of the game that generated the bad blood between you two?

And one more unnecessary (soft) claim?

[Rodion]

Vote: Vifam

L-4

[Rodion]

Vote: Vifam

L-4

Vote: Vifam

[Rodion]

The scummiest players, I feel, simply from their votes on the Vifam wagon are...*checks my handbook* 3isFrench, DavidX, and Rodion. It seemed to me that DavidX and Rodion were both notably hesitant in casting their votes on Vifam, and gave me the feeling they were fishing for town approval before jumping on the bandwagon.

#191 explains why I hesitated.

It is hardly ridiculous at all. Look at the facts: ZeL1nK claimed he would kill me Night 1 before I had said ANYTHING in this game what-so-ever.

Not really. The vig claim was on #122 and you had already taken the time to post twice (#85 and #116), you just chose not to post anything substantial other than a nameclaim (something most players - among those that talked about an early mass nameclaim - said would do no good to town) . Tell you what: I didn't like #85 and #116 either. Whether that was the reason he decided to threaten you or not is something we can only begin to understand if you post the link to the game you mentioned (the game has concluded, right?), thus I reiterate the request I had made on #200.

While I'm at that, I'm not liking the playing style of either (Zinger and Zelink).

Town points for Pinky's answer to Silver regarding treating Vifam as a newbie. Scum points to Silver for the same reason.

66:

Rodion+7

for trying to escalate the obv-early Vezok wagon to a fullclaim
141:

Leon+7

for voting my predecessor based on a "defence" of vezok, when all she'd offered was a meta position. You can't "defend" somebody who isn't under attack - so this just screams of being a weak effort to join an existing wagon.

I think you had to run prematurely (post to be continued?), but these are your top 2 at the moment.

I'll wait for the rest of your readings, but do know I expect a vote from you on your top scumspect.

Blatant skimming: Vifam is +8, so he's ahead of Leon on vollkan's ranking.

Vollfan explained his method and it seemed clear enough to me that he would cast a vote as soon as he got to analyse all posts. Pressuring for that seems like you're trying to look town without actually helping.

I need to look at Rodion's activity but he seems to have dropped off the radar since he stopped being under pressure. Not sure if he is V/LA or not.

Sorry about that. I've been busy the last couple of days.

Anyways hello. Claim time right?

I'm town tracker, nice BW putting tracker at L-2 derp.

UNVOTE: Vifam/Junpei

But scum claim PRs just as often as town, if not more, right? Does it really mean anything?

It means we can pressure Junpei for reports. If later something does not add up, we conclude she fakeclaimed and lynch her.

I still need to form my opinion on the Killerjester vs. Leonshade case. Hopefully I can do that in the next couple of days. I didn't find anything blatantly scummy on Leonshade and I feel it's just a difference on playing philosophy, but I'll try to look deeper to confirm/deny my original thoughts on the subject.

I'd also like 3isFrench to comment on his lie regarding the vote count and his 2nd Vifam vote.

Fasposted by Junpei.

[Rodion]

Read Junpei's post: can anyone (3+ people would be better) confirm that Meran-town is usually inactive on D1?

[Rodion]

I am a male. Some people call me a she, I think is has to do with my name starting with Jun so they pronounce the first syllable "June" which is a common girls name.

My bad!

[Rodion]

VOTE: Zinger2099

Reason: ignoring my request in #325.

[Rodion]

L-2 is not L-1, but that's nitpicking I guess.

In fact I would argue you shouldn't claim until -1 AND someone has expressed willingness to hammer.

So, can we safely assume that lyncher roles are rare on this site?

(I'll appreciate if any of you can provide me with a list of roles that don't appear often)

I usually like L-2 as the claiming point because of (a) lynchers and (b) dumb/hammer-happy people, but I see things are done differently around here.

[Rodion]

Rodion, what site are you from? Also, how likely do you think it is that Zinger is scum? How strong is your read?

http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=213 - 8 games total (4 over, dead in 1, alive in the other 3) not counting Marathon games
Terminator Mafia - mafia (died D2 for hammering a hidden bomb) / mafia wins
Team CC Mafia - cult (survived) / game ended in D6 (ended in an interesting town/cult battle)
Quickie Mafia - town (died D2 due to night jester DK - crazy, I know) / town wins
Mafia Mafia - town (DKed D1 by mafia) / town wins (no rules game, I could talk and exchange PMs even after I died and it was easy to win because after flipping town I requested everyone to fullclaim through PM - it was easy to see the fakes)
Unknown Mafia - mafia recruited to Vampire cult (lynched D2 - mafia had a "governor" role - stop 1 lynch - so I gambled on that when I claimed to live until N2 - to give cult intel on my former faction and establish town cred - problem was that the mafia got a PM when I was recruited and the "governor" ended up refusing to stop my lynch) / probably going to lose
Pokemon Mafia - town / probably going to lose
Clue Mafia - mafia / ongoing, D4
Game of Thrones Mafia - just entered N1
Golden Pantheon Mafia - just entered N1


Zinger is getting under my skin. His behaviour so far has been very anti-town, but I don't know if he's scum-aligned. My vote is on him to hopefully change his behaviour for the better. I could just as easily vote Meran, particularly after his #400 admission that he will contribute if pushed hard.

[Rodion]

I'm going to comment more tonight, just wanted to adress 2 quick points that jumped to my eyes.

Point I

13) vollkan - Jilynne has been scummy and then calls me dumb for believing a vig claim.

I get the feeling that this was a big misunderstanding caused by poor grammar/punctuation. Check this.

I am going to vig Zinger tonight. Anyone have a problem with this?

I think a nameclaim is a bad idea; even if factions are randomized, it may be the case that their TV Roles have a factor in any PRs that may exist.

If it's like the last jasont game, roles are randomised, not just alignments.

The reason it's a bad idea is because it's a waste of time and achieves nothing.

Why would you claim when a real life day hasn't even pass?

If there is a doctor, please protect him ZeL1nk.

Is there some game mechanic that I am missing? I thought everyone was in agreement to not claim D1?

Did you want Zelink (claimed vig) to protect the doctor? I hardly think that's what you meant (as I already said, you probably wanted the doctor to either (a) protect Zelink, the vig or (b) protect Zinger, the vig target), but the way you phrased it makes it weird.

OverSoul, you obviously believe the vig claim. Tonight, I'm going to shoot you, protect Pinky and the Brain, and investigate TheAdmiral, do you believe that too?

Jil's answer seems like someone making a joke out of the ambiguous phrase.

Point 2

UNVOTE: Meransiel

Because there is other stuff bigger than Meran now.

Zinger, you just softclaimed Lyncher. I want proper info on your role.

FoS: Junpei

Zinger says it all.

Did you just ask for a roleclaim? I don't see the point in giving the mafia a bigger informational advantage than they already have.

My, my, I am pretty confident in my vote that's already on you. Speaking of, don't you have anything to say to the accusations on you? Anything at all?

Zinger claimed 3rd-party, I don't see the harm in wanting to know more about his claim: it's not like we're outing a town PR. I'm also curious about the logic behind people claiming Zinger "townslipped".

[Rodion]

What happens on a Lynch though?

Our version (Board 8 on Gamefaqs, aka Contest board) detonated on a Lynch too.. but the MS wiki specifically says "night".. is that the standard version?

If it is, wouldn't a lynch be wiser, to prevent us losing a Vig?

On my other forum. whoever hammered dies.

[Rodion]

But.... he's probably town. And he's a good vig shot

Can you explain those 2 different thoughts?


Regarding the neighbourizers, I've never seen such a role. I guess I like the possibility of the neighbour PR having the neighbourizer "represent him" in a possible counterclaim (so the PR is not outed). I'm thinking here and it seems like this could work even if the neighbourizer is mafia. I have no idea on the likelihood of their alignment being town, mafia ord 3rd-party.

[Rodion]

Just checked all games Zinger played here. They were 4, 3 as town (vig twice and VT once) and 1 as mafia (but he was allowed to daytalk), so your explanation makes sense.

I wonder if every other player that mentioned the town slip also had this in mind.

[Rodion]

I played JK last game, and knowing that my ability blocked the NK meant I would be able to target those I was suspicious of, and if the kill went through, we had a confirmed Townie

I'm not following that. How can a roleblock that fails to stop a NK clear someone? There are multiple mafia members and only 1 makes the kill.

Fastposted by Junpei: Zinger's play does not make zero sense. I can understand the idea of claiming third-party to not go up in mafia's NK list of priorities while using his powers to aid town. While I don't recommend that playing style, saying it makes "zero sense" is stretching it.

[Rodion]

3) Rodion, does claiming JK, a ROLEBLOCKER, make any sense as town?

Are you trying to imply that roleblockers are necessarily/usually anti-town? My off-site experience says the opposite, particularly when he is a jailkeeper (doctor + roleblocker).

[Rodion]

Also notice how Zinger is derailing the thread with you, this topic of game theory this early is worthless.

I am not derailing the thread. The theory we are discussing is pertinent to the current situation and has merit to be discussed.

Whether or not there is a mafia jail keeper shouldn't be relevant to you as you believe yourself to be a town jail keeper correct?

Although I have to admit, this comment here is pretty intelligent.

Mind blown.

Quick recap of events.

Basically Zel1nk, his play makes zero sense as town as well. The only real explanation is that he was a gambitting scum or third party whose wifom went horribly wrong. These things happen.

Fastposted by Junpei: Zinger's play does not make zero sense. I can understand the idea of claiming third-party to not go up in mafia's NK list of priorities while using his powers to aid town. While I don't recommend that playing style, saying it makes "zero sense" is stretching it.

3) Rodion, does claiming JK, a ROLEBLOCKER, make any sense as town?

Are you trying to imply that roleblockers are necessarily/usually anti-town? My off-site experience says the opposite, particularly when he is a jailkeeper (doctor + roleblocker).

A roleblocker that has no motivation to help town is anti-town. He is going to target whoever the fuck he wants, and that includes possible town PRs.

So is any other role that has no motivation to help town.. You basically said that he is bad for town simply because he is a roleblocker. When argued that roleblockers are not inherently anti-town, you claimed that an anti-town roleblocker is anti-town. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question

Even if I had claimed full on Roleblocker, what difference would it make? Just because it might be more commonly a scum role, doesn't mean it is in this game.

That's a terrible argument.

And for the record, the Jailkeeper role was originally created as a fix to the Doctor (to prevent the powerful Doc-Cop combo), so while it does Roleblock people, it spawned from the Doctor, not the Roleblocker. I don't see how being a Jailkeeper makes you more likely to be scum in any way.

Jailkeeper CAN'T be a scum role. So claiming jailkeeper is opportunistically scummy. Not saying that you are, just giving my general opinion.

Wrong. Later on someone (Pinky, I guess) shows a game you played that had a mafia jailkeeper and you "rested your case" by saying there was more than 1 mafia faction. You don't yet know whether this game has 1 or more mafia faction (unless your scum role PM hints you at that), so rushing to conclude that there cannot be mafia jailkeepers just seem wrong.

I was talking about third party JKs. We were already on the topic of you being third party, and I said that you weren't just claiming survivor, you were claiming a roleblocking third party, which is bad.

*facepalms*

I have been in games where scum had protective roles. Scum can need protection, from becoming Vig targets.

Mafia doctor =/= Mafia jailkeeper.

You do realize that if a scum team is reduced to 2 players, one of them a jailer, and decides to use his protect, they basically lose their night kill?


PEDIT: Ok, thanks, I'm cool with that, PV.

So? there are plenty of roles that generally become harder to use/useless for scum once they are reduced to 2 or 1 player. At that point, the jailkeeper basically just becomes a roleblocker. There's nothing weird or wrong about that.

Also notice how Zinger is derailing the thread with you, this topic of game theory this early is worthless.

I am not derailing the thread. The theory we are discussing is pertinent to the current situation and has merit to be discussed.

Whether or not there is a mafia jail keeper shouldn't be relevant to you as you believe yourself to be a town jail keeper correct?

It became relevant after #783 (by Meran) was used to possibly discredit Zinger's claim.

Although I have to admit, this comment here is pretty intelligent.

I could elaborate more, but

every

Zinger post in this interaction is correct, while every Junpei/Meran post is either wrong ("scum can't have jailkeepers") or unnecessary ("a RB that does not wish to help town is anti-town"). Do note that this conversation was not started by Zinger, he was merely reacting when Junpei claimed that roleblockers were inherently bad (while his claimed role isn't even roleblocker) and when Meran falsely argued that his chosen claim was "so town that it could look scummy" (without actually stating it, perhaps for distancing purposes?). In the end, Junpei claims Zinger is derailing the thread when he is merely correcting poor assumptions by Junpei/Meran. Junpei ends it saying he shouldn't defend the possibility of a mafia jailkeeper if he believes he is a town one (which is a way of preventing Zinger to defend himself from Meran's #783) and Meransiel praises the intelligence of the said comment.

For now, UNVOTE: Zinger.

I'm reading Junpei and Meran going out of their respective ways to make Zinger look bad, which can be an attempt to push for a mislynch (or a 3rd-party lynch that is also good for scum).

VOTE: David Xanatos. Vote stays until I get an answer to #750.

[Rodion]

One more thing!

3. Rodion providing the games. Didn't take much effort so I'm not any more forgiving of him for doing that. The relevant part of his post (last 2 rows) is still pure tunneling on the leading wagon. Scumpoints.

Please explain why I get scumpoints for answering chkballin's question.

[Rodion]

@Rodion - Quick question. Are. You. Stupid? How the fuck can I advocate the lynch of someone I think is town?

That's the power of backhanded commentaries. You can say he is town, but #783 carries the seed that can lead to people thinking he is not. I'm just saying: it would be truly amazing if you managed a mislynch with a subtle commentary that didn't quite implicate you as part of the bandwagon, wouldn't it?

One more thing!

3. Rodion providing the games. Didn't take much effort so I'm not any more forgiving of him for doing that. The relevant part of his post (last 2 rows) is still pure tunneling on the leading wagon. Scumpoints.

Please explain why I get scumpoints for answering chkballin's question.

You get no points, neither scum nor town for answering. That is why I said the only part of your post that is relevant is the end, and the end is scummy.

I don't get what is scummy about the end of that post. Please enlighten me.

Rodion > Bit of idiocy on my part there I'm afraid. I was JK in a two-scum player game in which the first died night one.. so any unblocked kill ended up confirming someone. Didn't quite think about the mechanics of it when not applied to that.. I feel a bit prattish now. >_<

Suppliment towards Rodion > And also, in my defense, it was 4:30am. Mental faculties not exactly firing on all pistons at that point.

hahaha

UNVOTE: David Xanatos

My point is that the role he claimed first up was an anti-town role. He gets pressured and, after a number of contortions, claims town JK, under the pretext of a gambit. If he'd claimed mafia or SK and then backflipped with a "lol, sorry - gambit", he'd have been lynched five pages ago. Every action he is taken since his initial claim is referable to a survival motive. Thus, we have an anti-town motivation and the absence of any town motivation.

Survival mode isn’t more likely to come from only scum. Sorry,

a Town PR is just as likely to enter survival mode after a grandly stupid move because lynching them is very damaging to Town.

You’ve been around to have seen this and that you still are pushing it as a scum-tell based on your own personal standard troubles me.

Agreed.

In addition, my first response was at 7:45PM on Thursday, you posted twice in another topic at 2:01am and 4:09am, in addition to 4 further posts elsewhere over the course of the afternoon. If that's you "not personally posting", I suggest you contact Mith about your account being compromised.

Your post

813

where you give the irrelevant links was made Thursday, July 21 at 2:45pm EST.

Your post where you charge me with ‘avoiding’ a response is

846

, made on Friday July 22 at 6:56 am EST.

During that time I have EXACTLY two posts on MS.

One at Thusday July 21 at 9:01pm EST in a sign-up thread.
One at Thursday July 21 at 11:09 pm EST in the same sign-up thread.

Both of which was made via my Android phone. None of which were made in actual game threads.

Any reason you specifically fabricated the 2 game posts and 2 mystery posts above? Because time-stamps prove that you are making that up.

There's nothing fabricated here. Timestamps prove you live in different timezones. See how the minutes are identical? And how one post happened 2 hours and 8 minutes after the other both according to DavidX and you?

So is any other role that has no motivation to help town.. You basically said that he is bad for town simply because he is a roleblocker. When argued that roleblockers are not inherently anti-town, you claimed that an anti-town roleblocker is anti-town. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question

HE CLAIMED THIRD PARTY ROLEBLOCKER DID YOU FUCKING MISS THAT. I'M SERIOUSLY UPSET AT HOW YOU ARE NOT GETTING THIS. WHY WOULD HE CLAIM A THIRD PARTY ROLE BLOCKER (HURR ANTI-TOWN) AS TOWN? IT. MAKES. NO. SENSE.

I could elaborate more, but every Zinger post in this interaction is correct, while every Junpei/Meran post is either wrong ("scum can't have jailkeepers") or unnecessary ("a RB that does not wish to help town is anti-town").

This last sentence tells me you are either trying really hard to twist my words and make Zinger look good WITHOUT elaborating, or that you're just dumb. Read the above, explain how Zinger is always right.

Do note that this conversation was not started by Zinger, he was merely reacting when Junpei claimed that roleblockers were inherently bad (while his claimed role isn't even roleblocker) and when Meran falsely argued that his chosen claim was "so town that it could look scummy" (without actually stating it, perhaps for distancing purposes?). In the end, Junpei claims Zinger is derailing the thread when he is merely correcting poor assumptions by Junpei/Meran.

First of all, he could have said at ANY point "this is not relevant to the thread, can we discuss something useful. It is clear he has no problem being snarky. Second of all, I love how you group me and Meran together as if our two conversations with Zinger were the same thing. Thirdly, that conversation WAS derailing the thread, and it was pointless. Meran is at fault too.

Junpei ends it saying he shouldn't defend the possibility of a mafia jailkeeper if he believes he is a town one (which is a way of preventing Zinger to defend himself from Meran's #783) and Meransiel praises the intelligence of the said comment.

Maybe Meran praises it because it was fucking correct? Maybe I am right, and that Zinger shouldn't have been arguing about mafia jailkeepers, as it is pointless? Maybe Zinger should have pointed that out and after giving him AND meran plenty of time to do so, I had to come in and end the conversation.

I'm reading Junpei and Meran going out of their respective ways to make Zinger look bad, which can be an attempt to push for a mislynch (or a 3rd-party lynch that is also good for scum).

1) If after reading what I wrote you still think that I was making Zinger look bad for the sake of making him look bad then tell me in detail why that is. 2)Your second point is shit. Third party death is good for town, and it isn't a mislynch. Every single lynch could be a mislynch.

I wrote in bold.

You missed the point again. Let's go:

1 - Yes, I'm aware he claimed 3rd-party jailkeeper.

2 - "Why would he claim 3rd-party (anti-town) roleblocker as town?"

First of all, 3rd-party is different from anti-town. There are 3rd-parties that do not hurt the town. The fact that his claimed permanent roleblock could stop a mafia member means his claim is not strictly anti-town. If his claim is to be believed, he has no defined sides. Obviously, blocking a town PR is more likely since by definition there are more townies than mafia members on the game. You do have to weigh, though, that blocking one of the "few" mafia PRs can provide a a pro-town value that is bigger than the anti-town value of blocking one of the "many" town PRs.

Now that I adressed the wrong premise of your question, I'll answer it.

"Why would he claim 3rd-party roleblocker as town?"

Simple answer. To avoid being NKed and thus guarantee more pro-town used of his powers. A gambit. I never said I liked the gambit, but as I earlier stated, saying it makes "zero sense" like you did is stretching it.

3 - "How is Zinger always right?"

He simply is. You asked how claiming roleblocker/jailkeeper can be town. He said that being a roleblocker/jailkeeper does not make him inherently anti-town. That is correct. Period.
You then "begged the question" when you said an anti-town roleblocker is anti-town. Unnecessary remark. An anti-town roleblocker is anti-town correct, but a pro-town roleblocker is pro-town. The fact that he claimed "jailkeeper/roleblocker" does not make him necessarily mafia like you claimed in # 753, part 3. http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 0#p3266190

4 -

I was talking about third party JKs. We were already on the topic of you being third party, and I said that you weren't just claiming survivor, you were claiming a roleblocking third party, which is bad.

Not necessarily. He can also block scum. His winning condition as he first claimed it is not anti-town in the realm of logic and you should know it since you claimed to be a logic thinker.

5 - "Zinger could have said it was not relevant!"

It was because that was used against him. He is entitled to defend himself.

6 - I grouped Meran and you together because you both said BS about the jailkeeper alignment and Meran praised you for saying even more BS.

7 - "Maybe I am right and Zinger shouldn't have been arguing about mafia jailkeepers?"

If you don't understand why that was part of his defense and that simple fact allowed him to keep arguing, then I'm afraid we aren't getting anywhere unless someone else comes here to aid me in explaining why you are wrong.

8 - Third-party death is not a mislynch, I agree. The point I made is that Meran and you came up with so much crap to implicate Zinger that I started to consider the possibility that he is in fact a town jailkeeper that tried a rather poor gambit. While people were using legitimate reasons to implicate Zinger I had no problem with his lynch (I think I was the first to cast my vote on him), but when his lynch halted and people (Meran + you) started to use poor logic and false arguments to get him lynched anyway (you openly, Meran subtly) I started to think that getting him lynched might not be a good idea after all.

[Rodion]

Rodion your post made me rage pretty hard, you just don't get it. I'll try to go slowly to compensate for your lack of understanding.

1) So why the fuck would he think that we'd let him live? "HEY GUYS I AM A ROLEBLOCKER I AM NOT ALIGNED AS TOWN. I WILL ROLEBLOCK WHOEVER THE FUCK I WANT AND THEY ARE ROLEBLOCKED FOREVERRRRR". To which we would respond, what? "Oh, well, that's safe, okay just do whatever you want man". Basic problem solving is hard I know. Besides, JK is not a role that is something we'd rather live than tracker or cop, so why would he try to raise the odds of those deaths by lower his death?

2) Meran and him were arguing over pointless points. I'm ignoring you on this point as there is no reason to persuade you.

3) Wait.. he can... he can block scum? Does.. does this mean that he can block town too!? Yep. And he has no reason to try to differentiate between the two, he is anti-town.

4) There was no reason to defend himself on a point that doesn't even incriminate him.

5) Don't say what I'm saying is bullshit when you obviously have no understanding of the claim, like seriously that's annoying.

6) There is no way in hell that you could argue that there are or aren't mafia jailkeepers in this setup. There's just no fucking way at this point in the game that you could convince anyone of either side because it is possible, but there's no way of knowing if it is probable.

7)>poor logic >false arguments. Sounds like something that you're doing, perhaps trying to form an identity that you're protecting Zinger?

1 - His original JK claim has the possibility of allowing him to live a lot. Why?
a) Town could not kill him and gamble that the reward of permanently blocking a scum player would outweigh the risk of permanently blocking a town PR (lynch avoided).
b) Mafia could not kill him and gamble that the reward of permanently blocking a town PR would outweigh the risk of permanently blocking a scumbuddy (NK avoided).

I said it twice and I'll say it a third time. I don't think his play was good if he really is a town JK, but you

CANNOT

say his strategy makes

ZERO SENSE.

3 - You're wrong. Period. That is the definition of a double-edged sword, not necessarily "pro", not necessarily "anti".

4 - Wrong again. He was being accused.

#753 - Junpei basically says he's anti-town because he is a roleblocker
#783 - Meransiel said his JK claim is opportunistically scummy

You think he is not entitled to a defense?

5 - I think I understood the claim better than you did.

6 - You are absolutely correct here. Obviously, that does not mean I'm wrong, since your "6" does not go against anything I said.

7 - Oh my god. You suck.

[Rodion]

and tracker is very confirmable as the days go on (unlike what Zinger claimed).

That is not true. Jailkeeper can be easily confirmed (confirmable is not a word).

How could you easily confirm JK? A roleblocker could claim to be a JK and manage just fine, especially if they're scum.

Just have Zinger and Zelink target the same person and see whether the targeted person dies or not (if they both become neighbours, it gets easier, as there are less opportunities for scum to interfere with the test).

The problem is this only allows you to conclude he is a JK, not necessarily a town JK. Same can be said about Junpei's possible tracker confirmation.

For ISO purposes - DAMNIT IT WAS LATE AT NIGHT

Was doing so well as well...

I prefer izak, but he's V/LA, and eh.

Worst. Vote. Ever.

Seriously, voting someone for being V/LA? What the fuck.

I feel other people have adequately addressed this.

~ Hoppster

I'm not going to hold this against anyone that adressed this because I think there is a mass misunderstanding and I highly doubt everyone that got this wrong has an anti-town agenda.

Back when Zinger posted what is inside this quote pyramid, I also had the idea that he misunderstood it. After his latest responses I got the feeling that he simply explained his idea poorly. Let's see.

1 - Pinky wanted to vote on Izak, but Izak was V/LA. That made Pinky's vote default to his 2nd most suspicious, Zinger.
2 - What Zinger tried (I think) to say is that he was

also

V/LA (Zinger V/LA in #946, Pinky vote in #964), so Pinky's vote had to default to his 3rd most suspicious (or go back to Izak - or wait without casting a vote until the V/LAs got back).

Pine - 1st
Marco - 2nd
Meran - Tied for 2nds
magna -4th... or 5th... well last for the moment.
goomba - 3rd
Nero - Tied for 1st

How the F... is this hard to see

Obviously, formatting it weirdly doesn't make it scummy, but since the particular way of formatting you used has proven to cause distractions, I request you to be a little more organized when/if you do it again, if only to avoid fruitless discussions in the future.

In case you're willing to take this advice, if I were to agree with your list, this is how I would have presented it:

T-1st - Pine
T-1st - Nero
T-3rd - Marco
T-3rd - Meran
5th - Goomba
6th - Magna

Rodion > Leaning Town, but for the most part haven't been following him much. What I have noted in my observations is that he's intelligent and mostly neutral, willing to give both sides a fair hearing, which can only really be a benefit. Wouldn't mind seeing his list of scum-reads personally.

I must confess I'm not used to the "professional" mafia playing style of this site. I've seen several people give their reads on everyone else and it's only D1. I'll try to adapt and post one soon.

[Rodion]

Instead of taking notes when I read posts, I made this list right now with the feelings I had on players. When I didn't have much I ISOed them.


1) Meransiel - unwilling to help in the beginning, fixed his behaviour lately. Scumpoints for the interaction with the JK, but mainly on hold because he went V/LA before we could finish our convo.

2) vezokpiraka - had the idea of a mass nameclaim back in the confirmation stage and got RVS BWed (considering his mass nameclaim request I thought the BW was serious, not RVS). Hasn't talked much, but mentioned he usualy buddies the best player in the game.

Question for vezokpiraka:

have you considered the possibility of the best player being randomly assigned to the mafia? How do you deal with that?

3) MagnaofIllusion - his agressive style can help find scum, but I'm afraid he's blinded by his bloodlust and will throw accusations without good reasons (for instance, check his accusation that David Xanatos fabricated timestamps/posts). Spot on at times, but seems to me like a "diamond in the rough".

4) PeregrineV - did not say much. Some pertinent questions, a small mistake when checking the VC. Would like to see him participate more.

5) Pappums Leather Jacket - hydra. Disclosed his heads. I like his posts, but I get the feeling most of them are "safeposts". Would really like to see him participate more.

6) Zinger2099 - started posting without contributing, switched to claiming 3rd-party JK and then town JK (I took his doc claim as a joke). Really scummy to me, but I'm weary of other people exaggerating his scuminess (Junpei/Meran), which leads me to consider the possibility that it was, after all, just a poor gambit (and that the people who exaggerated deserve a deeper look).

7) chkballin - hydra. Discloses his heads. I really like how he caught 3isF lying about the doublevote. Though people may not go for LAL, it's always good to see someone taking the effort to check facts. Might be extremely useful in the future. Would like to see more. He has promised a wall.

8) marco1610 - needs to talk more.

9)

Pvt Slate

crappy - needs to talk more.

10) Nero Cain - needs to talk more. I liked his pressure on Silver.

11) David Xanatos - I don't feel the scuminess. He did rolefish when asking for the 2 neighbourizers identities, but it seemed a legit request after MoI had stated it was unlikely that both were town (+ MoI said he usually dies N1, so why not release information before it's too late?). He adjusted his request to the mechanics each neighbourizer claimed and I'd like MoI to adress that at the very least.


12) easjo682 - needs to talk more.

13)

jilynne1991

vollkan - I generally like how he thinks. Most posts are accurate. I have an objection in the way he quickly backed out of his

ultimatum

on Meransiel. The lesson I learned is that his

ultimata

carry no weight and he will never be able in future games to pressure anyone who read this game through an

ultimatum

. Even if he thought Meran was town, I think he had to keep his word in order to establish more credit to his

ultimata

in his future games. I'm not sure if that falls under the policy lynch definition, but I feel his response to Meran's refusal to cooperate was wrong.

More later today (or tomorrow).

[Rodion]

@Rodion: If the best player is scum that means they won't NK me because I buddied to them.

WIFOM aside (they could NK you because you buddied to them and use that as proof of innocence), that seems like a good strategy for survivor/SK. For town? I don't think so.

1 - His original JK claim has the possibility of allowing him to live a lot. Why?
a) Town could not kill him and gamble that the reward of permanently blocking a scum player would outweigh the risk of permanently blocking a town PR (lynch avoided).
b) Mafia could not kill him and gamble that the reward of permanently blocking a town PR would outweigh the risk of permanently blocking a scumbuddy (NK avoided).

I said it twice and I'll say it a third time. I don't think his play was good if he really is a town JK, but you

CANNOT

say his strategy makes

ZERO SENSE.

3 - You're wrong. Period. That is the definition of a double-edged sword, not necessarily "pro", not necessarily "anti".

4 - Wrong again. He was being accused.

#753 - Junpei basically says he's anti-town because he is a roleblocker
#783 - Meransiel said his JK claim is opportunistically scummy

You think he is not entitled to a defense?

5 - I think I understood the claim better than you did.

6 - You are absolutely correct here. Obviously, that does not mean I'm wrong, since your "6" does not go against anything I said.

7 - Oh my god. You suck.

1) That is the dumbest thing ever. This isn't poker, we don't take shitty gambles and say "fuck it" and let him live. The safe thing to do is to kill him, and that is what we were going to do, and that's what pretty much any town would do day 1.

4) They were discussing whether or not there's a good chance for a mafia jailkeeper or not. Someone may have said "you could be mafia JK" and then he was trying to somehow prove that wrong, but there's no way he could. It's just a way to derail the thread and make it seem like defending. But he may have been genuinely responding to Meran.

6) The argument was on the topic of mafia Jailkeepers

1 - The safe thing is not necessarily the best.

4 - Skimming much? That is not how it happened. It was actually the opposite. Meransiel basically said "JKs are always town, so claiming JK is opportunistically scummy", to which Zinger correctly replied that he has seen mafia JKs before.

6 - Yes, it was. And you saying that "there is no way to determine at the moment whether there is a mafia JK in this game" is absolutely correct. What I said is that what you wrote is not a good reply against anything I had said before, since I never disputed the impossibility of knowing if we have a mafia JK D1.

My next post will continue my reads.

[Rodion]

14) Pinky and the Brain - hydra. Disclosed heads. Contributes with cases, but I don't see anything wrong with Leon's delayed Vifam vote. Seems helpful but does not post so much. Would like to see more posts.

15) ZeL1nK - hydra. Concealing his identity (scum points for that). More scum points for his unnecessary vig claim. I still don't know why he wanted to vig Zinger back in the beginning of the game. My read on him will be more accurate come D2 (don't want to explain the reason just yet).

Question for Zelink:

you mentioned there are nuances in Leon's posts that carry town vibes. Can you elaborate on that?

16) andrew94 - not great at assessing probabilities (check #532). Zelink hinted at him being the perfect D1 (policy) lynch target. His signature says he will only skim walls. While that is anti-town, if that is his meta it can't really be used against him as a scumtell. Philosophically, makes me wonder why people do not play with a zero tolerance approach in order to change people's behaviour for the better in future games, but I digress. Will take longer to develop a proper read on him because of his skimming/VI meta that (unfortunately) allows him to do a lot of things without being held accountable.

17) izakthegoomba - one of the latest BWs, dodges questions. Currently V/LA. Curious to see how he's going to defend himself when he is back.

18) Pine - needs to post more.

19) Chevre - needs to post more (roughly 30% of his posts were questioning Silver on his questionable way of ranking scummy players).

20) ThAdmiral - probably the same read I have on Pappums. Looking forward to his catch-up.

21) Vifam/Junpei - scummy as Vifam (sheeping, "he did it too!" defenses), scummy as Junpei (stretching reasons to get Zinger lynched, arrogant attitude towards me even though I'm correct, giving ridiculous reads - "vollkan is town because of his point system"). Tracker claim is hard to fake, but he could be a mafia tracker. Either way, his reports can be useful so we could keep him alive until one of his reports is disputed.

22) Rodion - town.

23) Leonshade - #112 says both interpretations were directly contradictory, but they were not (props to Junpei for also realizing that, by the way). I don't feel the case on him, but I'm rather curious to see Zelink defend him. Could post more.

24) ThreeIsFrench - hydra. Disclosed heads. Doublevoted Vifam, lied about the VC. People bailed him out of it with a WIFOMy defense ("why would scum lie if they could get away with a 'oops, my bad'?") - not sure how I feel about that. Most posts are quick one/two-liners, I'd like him to post more.

25) killerjester - I dislike the vollkan adressed part of his #302. Other than that, I may not agree with his reads, but he is not afraid of showing his opinions and that's great for town's wincon.

26) Oversoul - needs to post more if he wishes to continue.

27) silverbullet999 - hydra. Disclosed heads. Not a fan of the "ask the other head" argument. Don't agree with the Pine pressure since there were many other lurkers around and I didn't get why only one of them got tunneled. I'm curious about something concerning him but I'd rather not disclose it now and just observe.

[Rodion]

Prod dodge. Going to catch up soonish!

[Rodion]

6) Zinger2099 - started posting without contributing, switched to claiming 3rd-party JK and then town JK (I took his doc claim as a joke). Really scummy to me, but I'm weary of other people exaggerating his scuminess (Junpei/Meran), which leads me to consider the possibility that it was, after all, just a poor gambit (and that the people who exaggerated deserve a deeper look).

I'm pretty sure meran has been arguing against a zinger lynch.

He has been, but that doesn't change the fact that he had to lie in order to call Zinger's claim "opportunistically scummy". I explained my thoughts regarding that already in the beginning of #908.

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 5#p3272655

1 - The safe thing is not necessarily the best.

4 - Skimming much? That is not how it happened. It was actually the opposite. Meransiel basically said "JKs are always town, so claiming JK is opportunistically scummy", to which Zinger correctly replied that he has seen mafia JKs before.

6 - Yes, it was. And you saying that "there is no way to determine at the moment whether there is a mafia JK in this game" is absolutely correct. What I said is that what you wrote is not a good reply against anything I had said before, since I never disputed the impossibility of knowing if we have a mafia JK D1.

My next post will continue my reads.

1) So you'd assume that town would take a huge unnecessary gamble?

4) Yes. How about I do this for you. Meran: JKs are always town, mafia would claim JK for that reason. Zinger: I'm town and JK so sure, but I'm not mafia, can't really give you actual proof I'm not, besides town JK would also claim town JK.

Instead it went: Meran: JKs are always town, mafia would claim JK for that reason. Zinger: There are also mafia JKs.

They go on to argue on the topic of mafia JKs, tell me that is not pointless.

1 - Considering town believe his original claim, I think the correct thing to do is to speculate on risk/reward of Zinger staying alive and blocking people. Town could also try to force Zinger to block handpicked people (scummiest slots) or be lynched the next day, essentially using his powers for our own sake. I don't think he would disobbey, considering we have a claimed tracker that could warn us and get him lynched the next day. Again, I never said town should deal with him or keep him alive, I said his play made more than 0 sense. I see how his gambit could have worked for town (and there was a chance that it could, that's undeniable). Actually, there is a chance that it CAN work, as Zinger is apparently going to survive today's lynch.

4 - Now you explained it well. And briefly. Thank you.

And it's not pointless because the alleged inexistence of mafia JKs was used to backhandedly call Zinger opportunistically scummy. That allowed Zinger to defend himself. When Pinky noticed Meran was lyingm Meran was allowed to talk about it to defend himself as well. The conversation had a purpose, thus it was not pointless.

You seem to forget that information can be shared INSIDE the Neighborhood. Both Neighborizors know the identitiy of the other, as will anyone they chose to Neighborize in the future. This means that when I die there is little chance the information that could benefit Town is lost. If I die others will be able to cooberate this fact. If the scum attempt to take out a Town Neighborizor they run the risk of losing their role or being discovered via the existence of a leak.

I've never played with neighbourizors. Are you saying there are 2 neighbourizors in the same neighbourhood, not 2 distinct neighbourhoods? I ask this because I thought the 2 neighbourizors were not able to talk to each other (since one of them "wasted" an action by inviting someone that was already invited by the other) but you say the know each other. Do they know each other but can't communicate? Please elaborate on that.


Pages 42-46 read and page 47 being read. More tomorrow.

[Rodion]

Actually, there is a chance that it CAN work, as Zinger is apparently going to survive today's lynch.

Apparently I misread the VC. He's going to die, so can goes back to could.

A few notes on the initial readthrough:

What's with all the name claims and roleclaims on day one? SRSLY?

Rodion's post 1007: Go back and read this. Really read it. I have rarely seen a more conciliatory piece of work in a game of Mafia. I especially like this little gem:

Zinger2099 - started posting without contributing, switched to claiming 3rd-party JK and then town JK (I took his doc claim as a joke). Really scummy to me, but I'm weary of other people exaggerating his scuminess (Junpei/Meran), which leads me to consider the possibility that it was, after all, just a poor gambit (and that the people who exaggerated deserve a deeper look).

He agrees with the crowd that Zinger is "really scummy" but also casts a wide IGMEOY at everyone who agrees with him. That's a neat trick, if you can pull it off.

The IGMEOY was only cast at Junpei and Meran because they used illegitimate reasons. Meran had to resort to a lie ("there is no such thing as a mafia JK"), while Junpei considered that a plan that made sense (although stupid) made in fact zero sense (not truthful).

There is no spoon either.

Regardless.. minor thing I'm wondering. Rodion, what're your thoughts on the two wagons?

You mention thinking Zinger was scummy, tempered with percieved exaggeration on Meran/Junpei's part, as well as mentioning that you didn't like Silver's "Ask the other head", and Pine focus.. what do you think of them now, and what was the thing you didn't want to mention about Silver on Monday?

I'm only asking as you're one of the four without a vote on anyone, and the only one of the four who doesn't really have inactivity as a solid excuse. (Two of the four are fresh replacements, Pine is being replaced, that leaves you.. I'm wondering why, with your reads, this is the case..

is it simply a case of not feeling strongly enough about anyone to lay down a vote

, or is there something deeper?

Regarding Silver, I wanted to know how he would have handled the Pine slot after a replacement, basically whether he would keep pushing for the replacement's lynch or not. If he didn't, I'd have an anti-town read on him, as it would prove him not to be worried about the slot itself as much as trying to get someone he disliked lynched. If he kept his pressure on whoever inherited Pine's slot, he would have been coherent, so either null or town. Unfortunately, MoI convinced him to drop Pine's pursuit before I could test that.

Back when I unvoted Zinger I waited to finish my back and forth with Meran before I could decide my new vote recipient. Meran went V/LA and I didn't find anyone to cast my vote on as Junpei had a PR claim that could partially confirm itself with time.

I just ended page 52 and I'll cast a vote when I catch up. And the part I bolded on your quote is correct.

[Rodion]

As promised, my case on Rodion. Still voting Zinger, not moving my vote today.

I need to reveal a portion of meta that I think clears someone else before explaining a part of why I think Rodion is scum. It's a specific paradigm I've seen before, with TheFonz (one part of Pappums Leather Jacket) defending a newb against an attack (My God, he's only a BABY!) and voting the person he perceives as persecuting the newbie on the thought that it's scummy to do that. In the case I saw, TheFonz was town, the person he attacked was town, and the newbie was, in fact, scum. This led me to look at Rodion much more carefully because I don't absolutely agree with TheFonz about not pressuring newbies, but I do think it's a towntell for him. So I semi-confirmed TheFonz as town and put an IGMEOY on Rodion for the reread.

The Magna of Illusion dispute was pretty inconclusive for me, though I did note that MoI looked like town and Rodion came off null. I can't usually tell when it's town-town or town-scum (though I'm pretty good at spotting the distancing scum-scum attack-retreat dance) so I just noted it. Rodion didn't seem to have good reasons but they didn't seem scum-beneficial either.

Then we hit this and the first thing that I can point to that was directly problematic after I started watching him.

Well, I am a mislynch. Period. Granted, scum would claim to be town as well, but I'm not appealing to emotion as much as stating a fact, fact being "I am town".

Apparently, he's town. And in the same post there's this self-serving parroting of TheFonz's argument that you shouldn't pressure newbs, except they might be scum, but then they might blow up and you'll get bits of newb all over you. Rodion expressly emphasises his own newbness.

1 - Did you read #96? It preceeds #98, so it's pretty problematic to conclude that I "parroted" the Leather Jacket in the "newbie defense".

2 - You misunderstood the aforementioned "newbie defense". It wasn't really a defense on the grounds that "I don't know how to play mafia and thus am prone to crack under pressure even if I am town", it was actually a warning to MoI and Vifam that their attacks on me could look scummy because they were grasping at straws against someone that had a join date that was below 1 week, so it sounded like an easy lynch. It didn't really matter whether I was/am a newbie or whether I'm the greatest mafia player in the world: what mattered was the perception of my experience/skills by those that decided to accuse me with so little and they didn't have a lot to base their perception from other than "he joined the site less than a week ago". Leather Jacket's ensuing attack/vote on MoI only confirmed the risk of attacking the "newbie", meaning my warning was spot on.

3 - Do not worry, you will not see me using the newbie defense in the way I described it in "2" (I'm too proud to imply that I suck and thus should be treated differently). The problem is that I don't yet know the

mores

of this site and that could lead to people reading "scumtells" where there shouldn't be. I'll give you some examples.

a) in my old site, we claim at L-2 or L-1. Here, there are people that not only think you should claim at L-1, but you ALSO should delay claiming until someone states that they are ready to hammer you. Had I gotten pressured up to L-2 and decided to claim at the spot I like (L-1 leaves you vulnerable to lynchers, mafia doublevoters, VIs, scum that might hammer anyway and then hope they are considered VIs), I'd have gotten more scummy in the eyes of some ("unprovoked claim" in the words of one of the players here).

b) since I don't know any of you, I was not aware that Vezok/Andrew were popular RVS wagons. Vezok had asked for a mass nameclaim during the confirmation stage and several players expressed their dislike on that. When the game started and he got several votes (with people pressuring others to vote there as well - I think it was Zelink asking David to hop on), I thought he was getting lynched for the scummy mass nameclaim request. Had I known how you guys play and make jokes and have your own most popular RVS targets, perhaps I would have realized earlier that it was a RVS wagon and not a retaliatory/policy wagon derived from his request.

A lot of my problems with Rodion center around claims and overreactions to wagons; any one of these things would not be a big deal by themselves, but taken together look like a pattern of behaviour. He wants a fullclaim during the Vezok RVS wagon, he wants to vote for Vifam but is afraid to hammer before a claim, he reacts to ZeLink and Zinger's claims oddly and starts asking for as many details as possible on those claims, and he asks about Mafia busdrivers, lynchers, and other weird and wonderful roles in a way that I very much didn't like.

Asking for a fullclaim on the Vezok wagon - check "3 b".
4 - "Afraid to hammer Vifam" - I do not see the problem of waiting for a vote count to make sure I'm not hammering prematurely (it's not like I used that as an excuse to not vote and avoid a D2 investigation after Vifam's flip -

I had already committed to voting

after the VC)
5 - Mind explaining how I reacted oddly to both Zinger and Zelink's claims?
6 - Please show where I asked for as many details as possible on those claims.
7 - "Asking questions about weird and wonderful roles in a way Banshee very much dislikes" - check "3". They are pretty common roles where I come from. Asking those questions here is just a way to adapt to this new mafia environment. I don't think it hurts to take the time to ask questions and adapt faster. Also, can you tell me what exactly is wrong with the "way" I asked those questions?

He defends Zinger for a while, and this actually made me reevaluate Rodion because his logic made sense to me and I was agreeing with a lot of his points. Then he started doing analysis of players, and that's when I lost all faith in his townness.

Rodion is conciliatory (my personal favourite scumtell) pretty much without exception. He dismisses a number of disputes as misunderstandings, notably here and here and helpfully informs others of how they can avoid such misunderstandings in future here, which is a pretty clear contrast to his I'm-just-a-newb excuses early on.

8 - On the "contrast" with the newb excuses: check "2". There is no contrast.

9 - Furthermore, I don't see how being new (either "new to mafia" or "new to this site") makes me unable to correct the misunderstandings I see. It just takes reading comprehension, not leet mafia experience. Do you disagree?

And these individual analyses are exactly characteristic of what I think scum would do, not offending anyone particularly and not offering much in the way of insight.

here and here

He gives ZeL1nK scum points for concealing his hydra. Yes, he does. The least useful and accurate scumtell ever.

Rodion is too interested in outing power roles as a general rule, too conciliatory in his analysis of the players and overall the scummiest player in my view. Counterarguments, angry flames and logical rebuttals are always welcome.

10 - Hydra - yes, I did. I don't see a pro-town reason to make yourself "unmetable" after you already claimed. If you've got nothing to hide, you should be willing to be read as an open book.

[Rodion]

Are you saying there are 2 neighbourizors in the same neighbourhood, not 2 distinct neighbourhoods?

No. There are two Separate and distinct players who during the day today have recruited me into separate Neighborhoods. The mechanics by which they claim to Neighborize are identical, at least as far as they have shared so far.

Alright, I reread your post on that. Am I right in assuming you let neighbourizers know the identity of one another so that if you + 1 (town) neighbourizer die the other is forced to refrain from using his power on other townies since this remaining neighbourizer would be topping the scumcharts?

So I've read the last ten pages and I wish I hadn't. I am really uninterested in how this day turns out although I am interested in how much longer this Zinger wagon is going to stall at L-1.

Banshee and shotty are prob scum.

If this hasn't gone into N1 by the next time I check this thread, I'll try to post something a bit more meaningful than this.

Before the day ends, care to explain why:
1 - you softclaimed vig?
2 - you picked Zinger as your N1 vig target?

@Meransiel

- awaiting reply to #908.

I think a hammer right now would not be good. We've just got 3 replacements and they can contribute before the day ends. Drmyshottyizsik didn't say much and we should get some of his insights before ending the day.

I'm fully updated. Going to decide who deserves my vote after I finish my discussion with Meran (one more reason not to quickhammer).

[Rodion]

@Rod:

backhanded stuff

1. That is bullshit. I have nothing else to say.

2. Your post 404 is scummy because it is you parking your vote on somebody who you admit that you don't know it's scum, with the possibility of shifting it to someone ELSE you admit you don't know is scum if need arises. Basically pure pressure/convenience votes.

3. Your 908 is scummy as well. Because it clearly implies that if I am scum then Zinger is town.

However, your vote is not on me. Wonder why...ow yeah, because the other wagon is at L-1?

Be clear as to what you implied here. I want no margin for misunderstandings.

[Rodion]

I don
t really feel like it, I think I made myself clear enough. If you scumslip by accidentally misunderstanding me, well then, go town .

If you don't wish to clear yourself, I'll reserve the right to interpret how I see fit.

If you suggested that my vote was not on you because I'd rather use it to get Zinger lynched you are wrong. Zinger was lynched and I'm not one of the 14 people there. I'm not sure if you have been skimming or not but I unvoted right after I realized what Junpei and you were trying to do. I'm not sure if you skimmed because you didn't make yourself clear as I requested and that grants me the right to consider you did skim (find it unfair? Tough luck. Don't be a bitch next time someone questions you).

As to your question of why I didn't have my vote on you, the answer is because you went V/LA while we discussed and I decided to wait for your answers before that. Admiral thinks everyone should have a vote by the end of the day and I'll comply (but I will not pick between the 2 main wagons). Mine, for the record (because the lynch has already been decided), is on Meransiel.

VOTE: Meransiel

[Rodion]

Rodion's post implies that he'll have a vote down by the end of the day, but he doesn't post a vote until after the day is over. Just pointing out how he twisted his compliance with ThAdmirals' request.

Alright, stop with the mentally retarded act: it's not cute.

This is #1409.

@Meransiel

-

awaiting reply to #908.

I think a hammer right now would not be good.

We've just got 3 replacements and they can contribute before the day ends. Drmyshottyizsik didn't say much and we should get some of his insights before ending the day.

I'm fully updated.

Going to decide who deserves my vote after I finish my discussion with Meran (one more reason not to quickhammer).

I did not twist anything. I asked people (particularly Shotty) to wait with the hammer so I could finish my discussion and cast my vote. The hammer did not wait. Not my fault. If you want to hold it against me and say I "twisted my compliance" you just skyrocketed in the DERP charts.

He knows. He addressed that in his post.

Rodion > For the record, I've found your reasoning and logic to be fairly transparent. It may be a similar line of thinking but you've been reasonably easy to follow when you're explaining.. I can only assume Mera missed your point about your stance RE: his V/LA.. :/

Thank you, David. I just wish other people would think before they post. They're really getting under my skin. /rant

[Rodion]

Drmyshottyizsik, can you give us something to work with? Reads, perhaps?

Banshee, I answered your case against me back in D1.

VOTE: Meransiel

[Rodion]

Ok, just got back to this.

Given the state of things righ now, I'd be fine with a Silver lynch, though I want to look into it a bit more before I place my vote.

However, Junpei's reasoning for the track target is flimsy at best. Plus, from what I've heard, Vezok is a regular VI.

@Vezok I know this has been said already, but do you know if Junpei is lying?

Also, I'm waiting on this whole neiborizing thing MoI has going on.

I think people left many questions to you back in D1 before you went V/LA.

One that was quite common was a request that you name your top 5 scum reads. Please do it. Shotty, please do the same.

[Rodion]

@MoI well, now that you've outed him, I can totally see what you mean. I am still leaning towards silver more, but is there anything in particular that makes Andrew very scummy?

I'd say MoI's "2 E" is almost a smoking gun. Shows blatant contradiction by Andrew.

@ Meransield and Banshee - I'll get to that tonight or tomorrow

[Rodion]

Responding to Rodion from before the lynch.

2 - You misunderstood the aforementioned "newbie defense". It wasn't really a defense on the grounds that "I don't know how to play mafia and thus am prone to crack under pressure even if I am town", it was actually a warning to MoI and Vifam that their attacks on me could look scummy because they were grasping at straws against someone that had a join date that was below 1 week, so it sounded like an easy lynch. It didn't really matter whether I was/am a newbie or whether I'm the greatest mafia player in the world: what mattered was the perception of my experience/skills by those that decided to accuse me with so little and they didn't have a lot to base their perception from other than "he joined the site less than a week ago". Leather Jacket's ensuing attack/vote on MoI only confirmed the risk of attacking the "newbie", meaning my warning was spot on.

Why would you warn people not to do things that might be perceived as scummy? What if they ARE scum? Why would you be so certain that they are not?

3 - Do not worry, you will not see me using the newbie defense in the way I described it in "2" (I'm too proud to imply that I suck and thus should be treated differently). The problem is that I don't yet know the

mores

of this site and that could lead to people reading "scumtells" where there shouldn't be.

Everyone has their own way of finding scum and will detect different scumtells, so this shouldn't be your concern if you're town. Town doesn't have to worry about giving off scumtells.

5 - Mind explaining how I reacted oddly to both Zinger and Zelink's claims?

3 - How common are mafia busdrivers here? Zelink said he'd vig Zinger, should we be worried that a mafia busdriver redirects the kill into someone else? I'm still confused as to whether Zelink made a joke when he claimed vig or not and his "sarcasm" was only present when he replied to Oversoul's weird post (Oversoul asked the claimed vig to protect someone - I think it was simply a poor phrasing and he actually asked the doc to protect the vig - or the person the vig promised to kill). Also, if the vig claim is serious, Zelink, would you also name claim so we test the theory on the randomness of roles (a theory you mentioned yourself in #122)?

Zinger claimed 3rd-party, I don't see the harm in wanting to know more about his claim: it's not like we're outing a town PR. I'm also curious about the logic behind people claiming Zinger "townslipped".

There you go.

6 - Please show where I asked for as many details as possible on those claims.

See above.

9 - Furthermore, I don't see how being new (either "new to mafia" or "new to this site") makes me unable to correct the misunderstandings I see. It just takes reading comprehension, not leet mafia experience. Do you disagree?

No, I agree, being able to correct misunderstandings has nothing to do with experience anywhere. I think that CHOOSING to correct those misunderstandings and trying to smooth things over is characteristic of someone who is either new to Mafia or new to this site. Why would you dismiss things as misunderstandings rather than allowing whatever discussion comes from those things to continue? It looks rather like scum directing the play of their buddies, and that's why I mentioned it.

10 - Hydra - yes, I did. I don't see a pro-town reason to make yourself "unmetable" after you already claimed. If you've got nothing to hide, you should be willing to be read as an open book.

There are plenty of reasons for people to conceal their identities, some of which have nothing to do with this particular game. It's not revealing of the role of the concealed hydra, so it's not a scumtell. It's something that irritates you. There's a difference. Additionally, you claim not to know anyone here anyway, so I don't see how it could affect your play significantly unless you plan to meta each and every one of the players in this game.

@ThAdmiral

: Why are you so convinced that Rodion is town? You've defended him at least twice; I'm curious to know why.

I'm assuming you concede you were wrong regarding "1", "4" and "7"? You still didn't explain what you specifically disliked in the way I asked those questions (regarding "7").

On to the points which you replied to.

2 - You make a good point here. Considering I did not have town reads on them, perhaps I should have allowed them to dig themselves into holes.

3 - I disagree. Town needs to make sure they are seen as town because they don't want to be mislynched. They also don't want town PRs to "waste" night actions investigating them. I could go on about this, but trying to "appear town" is something that is done by both town and mafia. So, yes, I always worry about not dropping scumtells: it is bad for my winning condition regardless of my alignment (except Jester).

5 - By quoting me, you showed how I reacted. What you didn't do was show what was "odd" in my reaction. I'm still waiting on that.

6 - You said I asked about as many details as possible regarding Zelink's and Zinger's claim. Let's see.

Zelink: I said I didn't know whether he was telling the truth or not. If truthful, I asked him to tell his name so we got more info regarding roles fitting flavour or being random. Is that your definition of "asking as many details as possible"?

Zinger: my statement that getting more information on his 3rd-party claim was harmless to town stands corrected.

9 - Because I don't think a discussion that is originated from a misunderstanding will be fruitful. If both parties can't understand each other, they will both bash straw men and think they are correct. Waste of energy/time. If you have a theoretical point that recommends you not to clear misunderstandings while playing town I'd like to read it.

10 - Yes, I do not know anyone here. Luckily, this being a game of mafia I'm not the only one with the town winning condition. That means that, while I'm not able to meta someone, there are people on the town's side that can. Why not let them do it?

I've also checked and Zelink is also alive in another mafia game (Neon Genesis). It's possible that he wants his identity concealed because he is scum there. Time will tell.

You also mentioned there are plenty of reasons for someone to conceal their identities. I'm new to the hydra concept. I'll appreciate if you expand on that.

[Rodion]

I liked Pinky's observation on Silver not putting much effort in derailing Zinger's lynch. It does seem like he didn't need to do anything else after people took that as a VT softclaim. Spoiler on Goomba was also pretty funny, I laughed hard!

I now have a scum read on Shotty because he:

1 - hammered Zinger without providing his reasons
2 - active lurking (posting a lot but without contributing, no reads - even though I asked him -, most posts are "one-liners"...)

@Rodion: A definite, consistent and exemplified case for why I am scum please.

ISOing our D1 discussion is enough to reach that conclusion. Quick topics:

1 -

part of your #774 attack on me is not explained.

3. Rodion providing the games. Didn't take much effort so I'm not any more forgiving of him for doing that. The relevant part of his post (last 2 rows) is still pure tunneling on the leading wagon. Scumpoints.

Apparently, I get scum points because of this:

Also, how likely do you think it is that Zinger is scum? How strong is your read?

Zinger is getting under my skin. His behaviour so far has been very anti-town, but I don't know if he's scum-aligned. My vote is on him to hopefully change his behaviour for the better. I could just as easily vote Meran, particularly after his #400 admission that he will contribute if pushed hard.

I still do not understand what is scummy about my reply to Chk. The fact that I also mentioned I could just as easily cast my vote on you makes me wonder about the truthfulness of your read.

2 -

Your interactions with Zinger on his JK claim. ISOs 42, 43, 44, 45, 46 and 50. You mentioned his claim was "opportunistically scummy". The reasoning based on your statement was

A LIE

(there are no mafia JKs). This was #42. # 43, 44, 45 and 46 are you trying to defend your lie. Your #44 response to Pinky catching you is a textbook example of the "No True Scotsman" logical fallacy. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

After lying and trying to defend your original statement and looking pretty bad while doing all that, Junpei tried to derail the JK discussion and in #50 you commended his intelligence for, essentially, getting you off the hook.

On a side note, you also attempted to lurk on D1 and said lynching/vigging you wouldn't be a good idea because you'd actually contribute come D2. I'm waiting.

[Rodion]

Is it your standard practice in general to help out people you don't have town reads on by telling them how not to act scummy? Is this your general behaviour?

I don't think I've played enough games as town to have a "general behaviour" (you can check my list of games if you ISO me).

5 - By quoting me, you showed how I reacted. What you didn't do was show what was "odd" in my reaction. I'm still waiting on that.

This reads as if you're requesting that I explain the scumtell I detected in your posts. I'm not going to tell you that. Ask me after the game.

Unfortunately you do not have 13 D2 votes. In order to convince people to trust you on your scum reads you have to explain the scumtells you find.

Zelink: I said I didn't know whether he was telling the truth or not. If truthful, I asked him to tell his name so we got more info regarding roles fitting flavour or being random. Is that your definition of "asking as many details as possible"?

Short of quoting or paraphrasing the role PM, how many more details do you think he could have provided that you did NOT ask for?

I can come up with several. Just to name a few:

1 - When you said you were going to "vig" Zinger, did you claim vig? Do you have limited shots? Perhaps you are a JOAT that decided to use your kill D1?
2 - Did your role PM mention any other players/roles?
3 - Do you have "strongman" shots (can't be protected/blocked/redirected)? How many?

9 - Because I don't think a discussion that is originated from a misunderstanding will be fruitful. If both parties can't understand each other, they will both bash straw men and think they are correct. Waste of energy/time. If you have a theoretical point that recommends you not to clear misunderstandings while playing town I'd like to read it.

This is full of fail. If you help everyone out by saying, "It was all just a big misunderstanding!" then you're interfering in fruitful discussion that could lead to slips, scumtells and discovery. Why would you want to do that? Why would you assume you knew what either party meant exactly, anyway?

The question about "assuming' is pointless. If I'm getting in the middle of something to clear a misunderstanding, I assume I know what the parties mean. If I'm wrong they can correct me.

And I don't see how certain discussions can be fruitful at all. Let's assume player A and player B are misunderstanding each other. They discuss. This is a summary of what happens:

Player A attacks Straw Man B (A's misunderstanding of B's position). Player A is convinced that he is correct.
Player B attacks Straw Man A (B's misunderstanding of A's position). Player B is convinced that he is correct.
Careful outsiders know the discussion is pointless, since they are not really attacking each other.

I don't see the harm in clearing the mess up.

You also mentioned there are plenty of reasons for someone to conceal their identities. I'm new to the hydra concept. I'll appreciate if you expand on that.

The hydra concept is new to me as well but apart from some technical issues it doesn't bother me. As for hiding one's identity, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that if people are concealing their identity for out of game reasons (as someone in an ongoing hydra may well do) that it's really none of your business, just as if someone is playing as an alt for their own reasons, that's not your business either.

In other news, I finished my reread of Silver and I'll be working on writing it up when I get more time.

I disagree. Gathering knowledge is important and knowing who's behind a hydra/alt mask is part of the equation. If you don't give me an example of a viable reason for a hydra to conceal their identity I can only assume that he is anti-town in at least one of his ongoing games and consequently don't wish to be "metaed".

[Rodion]

A viable reason for someone to hide their identity is if they are being stalked or otherwise harassed online. And that, as I said previously, wouldn't be any of your business, would it?

Fair enough.

@everyone you know how you demanded junpei's track. and he said vezok. what if vezok said he did go somewhere. who would you believe.

I'd personally believe Vezok. Regardless, a counterclaim is good because (I'm assuming bus drivers are really rare here, like Admiral told me):
a) we doubt the right person and find one scum
b) we doubt the wrong person and mislynch but find one scum the next day (or even vig tonight)

Question back at you, Andrew: what's the point in asking the question you just did?

Can we get a prod on our lazy vig? Also still awaiting Rodion's response.

It irks me that he "pretended" to have responded, tbh.

I beg your pardon?

I liked Pinky's observation

on Silver

not putting much effort in derailing Zinger's lynch. It does seem like he didn't need to do anything else after people took that as a VT softclaim. Spoiler on Goomba was also pretty funny, I laughed hard!

I now have a scum read

on Shotty

because he:

1 - hammered Zinger without providing his reasons
2 - active lurking (posting a lot but without contributing, no reads - even though I asked him -, most posts are "one-liners"...)

I think that you're looking for an easy target to lynch again here, Rodion.

You have very little day-to-day consistency in your reads, which shows to me that the lynch you are happiest with is the lynch that gets the day over with.

What is the easy lynch you're referring to? Silver or Shotty?

I'm also irked by how shallow your "case" on me is (do not confuse that with OMGUSing everyone that attacks me as you'll see that was not the case when Banshee

actually

provided arguments). And, other than your shallow "case" on me, what else have you brought up to now?

Care to provide your top 5 scum reads? 2nd to 5th?

Andrew, is a puzzling player in the way that he is VI. I never know if he's just being ridiculous or if he's scum- given that their are supposedly two neighborizors I am betting that they both aren't town so I could get behind an andrew lynch.

VI - villiage idiot? That's what the wiki says but I want to confirm.

If so are you claiming that you are too dumb to read an idiot? You are a very confusing player.

Yes, VI stands for village idiot.

I don't think he claimed to be too dumb to read an idiot. The fact is that people who behave irrationally are unpredictable.

[Rodion]

I don't care to, Rodion.

You seem to find many ways to comment on many things that tell us very little about the game. What have you learned from all your questions, Rodion?

How would it matter who is second most scummy to you, Rodion? Are you curious if your teammates are hiding well?

You did not reply to me Silver/Shotty question.

I learned a lot, thank you. Not going to compile that unless you ask for the purpose of specific questions.

Who's second (to fifth) most scummy to me in your view matters to me because I won't let you coast through the day without committing to anything other than "Rodion is the scumz". The person you replaced provided nothing yesterday and providing 1 read over 2 days is not nearly enough for a slot. That would be the pinnacle of noncommital.

[Rodion]

What is the easy lynch you're referring to? Silver or Shotty?

The answer, Rodion, would be yes.

A+ answer, champ!

@Rodion: Stop being obfuscating and MOTIVATE your vote on me. With actual...you know, motives.

#1565 - http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 0#p3311570

On Andrew: MoI's case on Andrew is comprised of "1" , "2-A", "2-B", "2-C", "2-D" and "2-E". I don't agree with MoI finding scuminess in 1/2-A/2-B/2-C (like I earlier said, Andrew has a VI reputation and, unfortunately, that allows him to be unaccountable for a lot of crap). However, the lack of coherence between 2-D and 2-E is blatant.

As far as I know, these are the neighbourhood setups so far:
Andrew - MoI - ???
??? - MoI - Chkballin
(with possibly 1 more "???" to each if they recruited D1/N1/D2)

I still don't understand why Killerjester concluded Izak was in Andrew's neighbourhood. Someone please enlighten me on that.

As to how approach this situation in quick points:

1 - In my opinion, if we establish that Andrew wanted to preserve the integrity of the QT and he recruited someone he had a scum read on, I can throw my weight on hanging him.
2 - I need to know for sure who he recruited.
3 - If Andrew has a thread scum read on the recruited, he can hang (I quickly ISOed Andrew and I only saw D1 suspicions on Chkballin though, so I think this is not the case). If Andrew has a QT scum read on the recruited, then we need extra people to confirm that is correct, starting by the very recruited neighbour and by whoever can be D2 recruited. I'd suggest D2 recruitment to be stalled for now as we get some things clearer.

Rodion, what did you learn from that convo with Banshee?

I'll get to that later today.

[Rodion]

Rodion is reduced to sarcasm and smilies.

Just lynch him. Look at #1701, not the least little piece of reasoning in it, just a whole bunch of complex mumbo jumbo that means nothing. He's an obvious scumbags.

Town needs to continue to vote for Rodion. ThAd's tells are useless.

You're making yourself look pretty bad, Castle Bravo.

You've answered a "Shotty or Silver?" question with a "yes" (valid answers: "Shotty", "Silver", "both") and you are reducing everything I've done so far to "sarcasm and smilies".

I'll check your other games later to see if you usually behave like a VI. If you don't, scum read.

[Rodion]

Rodion is reduced to sarcasm and smilies.

Just lynch him. Look at #1701, not the least little piece of reasoning in it, just a whole bunch of complex mumbo jumbo that means nothing. He's an obvious scumbags.

Town needs to continue to vote for Rodion. ThAd's tells are useless.

You're making yourself look pretty bad, Castle Bravo.

You've answered a "Shotty or Silver?" question with a "yes" (valid answers: "Shotty", "Silver", "both") and you are reducing everything I've done so far to "sarcasm and smilies".

I'll check your other games later to see if you usually behave like a VI. If you don't, scum read.

Would yes bear a close resemblance to "Shotty," "Silver," or "Both," Rodion? Maybe, if you think very, very, very hard you could answer this question.

You (later) said that not being able to understand your answer is proof that your scum read on me is correct. Well, I

still

do not understand your answer, so if enough people agree with your premise it will be pretty easy to get me lynched.

1 - Would you be kind enough to explain your "yes" answer?

On to the rest of your case (now without the quotation marks as you decided to play):

2 - I knew EST was an acronym for the NY/Boston (and many other places) timezone. I just never saw someone indicating their timezone in a mafia game (and I've provided a list of all games I've played on the other site - up to that point - if you want to fact check that timezones are not mentioned - we do see their country flags, but most players are from the USA and they do not necessarily indicate whether they are Eastern, Central, Rocky, Western, Alaska or Hawaii) and then thought "perhaps EST here has a different meaning"? Didn't see the harm in asking. Don't see the point in your raising that up either.

3 - Yes, 1700ish posts after the game started I understood the meaning of VI. Is that so scummy to you?

I also PMed Jason early in the beginning of the game asking about the meaning of VI. I do not know whether he can confirm that or not, but I'm bolding it just in case.

4 - I've already answered Banshee on the newbie thing. The tl;dr is "I don't know the

mores

/customs of this site, but I do know how to play the game".

5 -

He tried so very non-hard to defend Zinger for the town cred, sure to remind people that it of course was mathematically possible that Zinger could be town despite claiming to be non-town, and that we cannot ever be sure for man is not wise in the mysteries of the universe badda badda.

Magic 8 ball say "scum be white knighting."

I love your thought process here. You find scummy that player A called player B out on his opinion that it was mathematically impossible ("zero sense") for Zinger to be town, but you don't find even a tiny bit scummy that player B said it was impossible (and used this "impossibility" to heavily promote Zinger's lynch) when it in fact wasn't?
Lying = ok?
Correcting a lie = scummy?

I'm also going to add that Rodion alternates between the I'm-a-newbie-what's-this-mean and the I-am-NOT-emphasizing-my-newbness-how-dare-you!?! settings pretty much at will. As I pointed out before, he warned people against picking on him because it might look scummy and, when questioned about whether that was his general behaviour fell back on the I-don't-have-a-general-behaviour-I'm-a-newb defense once more.

Hi!

I've explained this "alternation" already when I dealt with you. The "4" in this post's answer to Castle Bravo might refresh your memory.

I've given you all a comprehensive list of my mafia experience on the other site. My

subjective

opinion is that I don't have enough games as town under my belt so consider a "general behaviour". The question I now ask you is: with

objective

proof within your reach (all those game links that can be read without even needing to make an account on the other site), why don't you make your own research and inform everyone else on whether I have a "general behaviour as town" or not? I bet it would be a lot more pro-town than spinning my subjective answer into a "he's playing the newbie card AGAIN lolz" like you did.

[Rodion]

I'm sorry rodion but you still haven't told me what you learned from the Banshee conversation. Although this conversation with Castle Bravo seems like a pointless road to go down the thread is slow recently anyways and I have not much to add so I won't stop you from talking.

I will say that when Castle Bravo responded with "yes" and then called you out on not knowing what that meant as if it were a scumtell, it felt very much like scum leading you on.

What I learned from my interaction with Banshee.

1 - She will not fight clearly lost battles.

Proof: she told me I parroted PLJ and I gave proof that my post happened before PLJ's. Banshee did not reply to that.

2 - She will not admit defeat either.

Proof: when I asked why she didn't reply to the parroting accusation, she said it was due to lack of time, not due to being wrong.

3 - She will accuse and refuse to explain. This means either that:

a) she is sure she can get a majority to lynch me without explaining because the majority of the players here can see how obvious of a scumtell that is
b) she will not fight clearly lost battles, nor admit defeat (as can be seen in #1 and #2)

Proof:

This reads as if you're requesting that I explain the scumtell I detected in your posts. I'm not going to tell you that. Ask me after the game.

4 - She's smart enough to get her own "touchés". She actually made me slightly evolve as a player here.

Proof:

Why would you warn people not to do things that might be perceived as scummy? What if they ARE scum? Why would you be so certain that they are not?

5 - She will exploit those "argument victories" while trying to sweep her "argument losses" under the carpet. Shows lack of coherence.

Proof: she took the time to continue questioning me on my MoI/Vifam "warning" after I conceded that I made a suboptimal move, the same time she didn't have to concede defeat on the parroting accusation.

6 - She got me to understand a little about (non-scummy) reasons on why a hydra conceals their identity. I'm not sure how serious/often this internet harassing thing is, but I'll not take my chances and just change my position towards more leniency when dealing with concealed hydras/alts (yes, it was a huge AtE on her part, but I'll buy it).

A viable reason for someone to hide their identity is if they are being stalked or otherwise harassed online. And that, as I said previously, wouldn't be any of your business, would it?

[Rodion]

If you have played Mafia elsewhere (and I don't know where you've played, sorry, I don't know these sites) then was it your general behaviour THERE to counsel other players on how not to appear scummy when you did not know their alignment? Or are you arguing again that you're too new to have a general behaviour anywhere? I thought my question was relatively simple and straightforward (Yes, Banshee, I do advise others on how not to act scummy in general or, No, Banshee, this is something I just did in this game) but instead it was used as another opportunity to say, hey, look, I'm a newbie! Someone rush to my defense!

I'm just puzzled as to why it keeps working every single time.

I will repeat myself again. If you don't like my subjective opinion that I do not have played enough games as town in order to have a general behaviour, then I challenge you to check my town games yourself. I've only played 3 non-marathon games as town. All others are either mafia or 3rd-party (surprisingly, I drew many non-harmful 3rd-party roles).

http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=213

Game 1 - http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewto ... 0&t=145162 - DKed D2
Game 2 - http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewto ... 0&t=147058 - DKed D1 but I catched all scum there (weird game without rules, I don't think reading it would aid you much)
Game 3 - http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewto ... 3&t=141268 - pretty much my only play as town in a normal game in which I didn't die too quickly

I now ask you: is it my general behaviour to counsel other players on how not to appear scummy when I do not know their alignment? Or do I even have enough games as town under my belt to have a general behaviour?

@Junpei - your arguments are so poor I barely have the will to respond to them.

1 - I argued with Banshee because she accused me and I wanted to prove her wrong. Playing to my win condition, you know?

2 - I did not take notes before, I do not play taking actual notes. I make them on demand. What's the problem?

3 - The post was made "on the fly". I indeed did not have a notepad file entitled "things I learned from my Banshee convo". I ask you again: is there a problem?

4 - I fail to see any contradictions on what I wrote, even with the "aid" of your bolded comments. The repetition you mentioned should be there because "3" has 2 main consequences: "a" or "b". If I had not mentioned B you would have mistook it as only one consequence.

5 - My head is still spinning on your "couldn't fight"/"wouldn't fight" comment. Can you state your point?

[Rodion]

Rodion you state that Banshee won't fight "clearly lost" battles. However you cited a post where Banshee essentially says that it wasn't that she won't fight that battle, but she physically couldn't respond timely at all. ergo, couldn't, not wouldn't

Responding quickly to hopefully get a quick answer to this point.

Well, Banshee certainly has enough time to ask several people what they think about me, I'm not buying that she will refuse to answer points in a back and forth against one of her top scum reads simply because she lacks the time to do it (remember, it's not only about having correct scum reads, it's also about convincing others that you are correct). Especially when it's a black and white parroting accusation when I posted

before

the person I was accused of parroting, thus making the parroting logically impossible. She could have easily said "you got me there, I'll withdraw this part of my case against you (but the rest stands)". Did she? No. Therefore, she will not admit defeat, which was my conclusion #2.

I don't see the reason to make a couldn't/wouldn't distinction to defend her (or discredit me) like you did.

[Rodion]

Your argument is that you didn't parrot Pappums, and you're right on that.

Thank you! I hope it didn't hurt!

But you went back to that defense and seemed to follow his arguments even after you said you wouldn't do so out of pride. I don't think you get to have it both ways on that, but I don't suppose I think it's scummy, especially since you're now completely relying on the "newbie defense."

Did you even read one of my many posts explaining this? There is no contradiction, no seesawing if you actually understand what I said.

Regarding the general behaviour question, disregard my answer if you want to as you don't need it anymore. You already have the game links. Research them. Derive conclusions. Report back here with said conclusions.

@everyone - I've been tired of banging my head against brick walls, so I've decided to establish a little policy of my own. I will only answer questions or cases directed at me if they are asked (or seconded) by someone that is

not

on this list:
- Meransiel
- Junpei
- Banshee
- Castle Bravo

I'm tired of all of them, sorry. If someone other than these 4 players think one of these 4 players made a good case/question that he'd like me to respond to, just second the question and I'll get to it (a simple quote of the question/case followed by "I'd like you to answer this one, Rodion" will suffice).

Ninja'd by Rainbowdash - I guess you will really like the "@everyone" part of this post.

[Rodion]

@rodion, moi didnt mention that i said it differently. i thought my newest recruit (Y) was scum, but not directly because of his actions, but because of his interactions with another suspicious player.
i therefore invited him to see what he say etc.
whats wrong with recruiting some people that i think may be scum??? lol

In and of itself, there is nothing wrong with trying to keep a closer eye in someone you find scummy. What bothers me is MoI's claim that you wanted to keep the "integrity" of the QT. You certainly can't keep it if you invite scum and you invited someone you thought was scum, so how is that coherent with your wish to keep the integrity of the QT?

integrity= 2 can keep a secret. 3 cant
the arrangement was that if A dies then B is scum
if B dies A is scum
if moi dies A and B reveal each other
i thought if i recruited a scum then he can exploit this

I can actually accept this answer as reasonable grounds for not wanting to invite someone to the neighbourhood. You don't even need to asnwer my former question anymore. I have a new one, though.

In the end you decided to risk the integrity of the QT by recruiting someone else. Don't you think, however, that if you had recruited a town read of yours to the QT its integrity would be less compromised than if you recruited a scum read of yours (like you did)? If so, why take a bigger risk (recruit scum read) of losing the QT integrity if you could have taken a smaller risk (recruit town read)?

[Rodion]

@Peregrine

Top 3 town reads:

Rodion
Zinger
Vollkan

Top 3 scum reads (I will not elaborate because all those reads are direct consequences of my discussions and were already explained - if you really want me to elaborate, let me know):

Meransiel
Castle Bravo
Junpei/Andrew (pending results of Andrew's answers)

Top 3 town reads (serious version - wonder how many people I managed to irritate with my former one ):

Chkballin
Pinky and the Brain
Pappums Leather Jacket

Ballin and Pinky are there for pretty much the same reasn. They made respectable efforts in fact checking and managed to catch people lying. While lying is not a failproof way of finding scum (check Zinger's fakeclaim), their willingness to go the extra mile is commendable. Ballin did that on the 3isF/Hipaddict "double Vifam vote" case and Pinky did that on the "Meran says there is no scum JK" case. Other than that, I don't see any scumtells coming from either.
As for Pappums, it's not technically a town read as much as a way of saying that for now I will not let him be lynched without anything short of a smoking gun kind of evidence. I'm getting the feeling that a good ammount of the players here are willing to follow MoI with few/no questions asked and that is anti-town even if MoI is in fact town aligned. Without Pappums here it can all derail pretty fast, as at times he seems to be the one player willing to question MoI instead of sheeping.

[Rodion]

I would like an elaboration, please, since I have a town read on Meransiel, and Captain Bravo (and you might be biased since he's voting you and tunneling you hard, so can you add a read #4?), and was wondering if you do not believe Junp's claim, or do you think he is a scum tracker?

Understood on town reads. Thanks!

I'd like to think that I'm rational enough to be unbiased even towards those that vote me. Banshee, for instance, is the person that lead the accusations on me and I don't have a scum read on her because she actually made a few good points in our convo. Vezok also voted me blatantly sheeping Castle's weak case on me, but Vezok's VI reputation allows him to do that kind of thing without looking scummy (more on the VI accountability thing can be found in some of my comments regarding Andrew - ISO me if you're interested).

Castle is a scum read because of the extremely poor logic he's using to vote me. From the top of my mind, he:
a) mentioned how I didn't know some acronyms in the beginning and "suddenly" knew what a VI was about 70 pages later
b) gave a weird "yes" answer (that I still don't understand - please aid me if you do) to an "A or B" question and called me scum for not understanding it
c) parroted Banshee's case on how my D1 PBPA was non-committal (he could have pointed to Banshee's observation, but he preferred to quote some of my non-committal reads to make the case look like his own instead)
d) did not bother giving a second scum read

My case on Meran is in #1565 - http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 0#p3311570 (for your information, point "1", in which I say I didn't understand his reasoning, was not answered and I still do not understand it)

Regarding Junpei, a scum fakeclaiming tracker would be in a really tough position. Guess wrong a report and you die. He could guess that a specific person did not go anywhere and then he could possibly out a PR when counterclaimed, but they wouldn't even know which PR was outed, just that someone did indeed visit someone else. The false tracker could play it safe and make a report on one of his scumbuddies, thus guaranteeing that he would not be counterclaimed. The problem with that is that targeting the same person over and over again will not be acceptable and he would eventually run out of scumbuddies. Moreover, after flipping scum non-tracker his buddies that did not "counterclaim" him would be severely exposed.

That considered, I tend to think he is a tracker indeed (and if he isn't, jackpot for us!). Given how scummy he has been acting, more likely mafia than town.

As of right now I don't feel comfortable with giving you a #4 other than possibly Andrew (pending his answers), even though I got my eyes on MoI and Zelink and I want to check if, like Meran said, Izak plays every game like he is playing this one.

[Rodion]

@rodion i believe i have answered your questions as well.

I don't think you did.

These are the questions I'd like you to reply to when you have the time.

In the end you decided to risk the integrity of the QT by recruiting someone else. Don't you think, however, that if you had recruited a town read of yours to the QT its integrity would be less compromised than if you recruited a scum read of yours (like you did)? If so, why take a bigger risk (recruit scum read) of losing the QT integrity if you could have taken a smaller risk (recruit town read)?

[Rodion]

What's pro-town about hiding all his reads in the middle of posts? It gives me the impression of squirreling away his opinions so that if he's wrong, noone can pull them out and call him on them..

I never said they were a scum team Peregrine, they are just the scummiest people in the game in my opinion. I can't form a scum team based on connection logic at this point.

Also how about giving a real set of reads like David and I did back in day 1?

I've actually decided to do so through a conversational method with the rest of the town as they share their thoughts. This will not only encourage interaction between myself and others, but will increase my interest in the game. And, when we're done, I will post a fantabulous

scummary

of who is scum and why!

Also, I think the scum are on a team, so the "scummy people" thing weakens your case against them, at least to me.

I say give him some time: he can't hide forever. Besides, he has just made a promise and we can always ride his wagon later on if he refuses to deliver.

Ninja'd by David:

you bring some good points regarding Peregrine.

First let me say I don't mind his chkballin vote. I read it as a classic motivational vote (something I've done a lot this game, including a vote on you back in D1). He wanted Chk to deliver his promise and he voted on him to give him some extra incentive, much like I've just agreed to help ride his wagon if Peregrine does not deliver his fantabulous scummary.

His 3isFrench/Hipaddict vote is questionable indeed since he had never mentioned him before. Being "put off" by David's RVS vote on him is weaksauce. Some deeper explanation here would be pretty nice, Peregrine!

Can you also explain your town read on Meran/Castle Bravo (even if it has changed to a scum read since then)?

[Rodion]

@Meran:

I think it was you who was appealing to the vig to shoot Izak, yet you've expressed that you don't want him lynched (working on memory here, please correct me if I'm wrong). What's the difference between lynching and vigging Izak in your view? Why that distinction?

*raises hand*
Yes, I have. You see, the point of a lynch is looking for who is against, who is biding his time, who is pushing too hard. Relational tells. However, since we ALL agree that izak is scummy and useless, we ALL condone his death. Ergo, there's not relational tells to speak of.

[Rodion]

@rodion the qt integrety thingee was so newcomers dont mouth off. (i said that?)
i wanted to catch scum instead of having a town read that may or may not be town. so screw intergrety afterall

So wait, are you now saying you don't care about the integrity of your neighborhood?

Alright, I'm convinced.

UNVOTE: Meransiel
VOTE: Andrew

I don't like how you apparently changed your mind without previously explaining it (to the neighbourhood). If we have to pressure you before you admit that your contradiction (between keeping the QT integrity and recruiting a scum read) was simply a result of a change of mind, it gets really hard to trust you. For further reference in case you flip town here, whenever you change your mind about something be sure to state it before acting according to your new opinion.

This is bad:

1) state an opinion
2) change opinion
3) act according to new opinion

This is good:

1) state an opinion
2) change opinion
3) convincingly explain to the town (or, in this particular case to the neighbourhood) that your opinion changed and why
4) act according to the new opinion

[Rodion]

Andrew is scum.

Then how about placing your vote on him?

[Rodion]

What's the vote count. I feel that Andrew is scum, but I wouldn't like to hammer until andrew gets a chance to talk.

I think he has 8 votes and 13 are needed, so L-5.

[Rodion]

PaTB makes a very cogent point on Meran re: Izak and Shotty.

Good work fellows!

Care to respond Meran?

Goomba mirrors the exact things said in the conversations before his posts. Shotty simply gives reads. Also,

there are people who don't think shotty is scum

- which IS an asset. Therefore, difference. Also, I didn't play with shotty before, so I wouldn't know.

izak

posts first about it,

i find that a town read

I agree with ZeL1nK. In that silver is town, silver's wrong about Nero, and there's no reason to rolefish the vig yet. I don't agree on izak or andrew though. In that

I think izak is town

and andrew is scum.

To everyone on the Andrew wagon: Do you think silver is more than mildly scummy?

No.

Do you think that Zinger's flip gave you insight on izak? If so, what insight did you gain?

Guess who just got major townpoints! Thiiiiiiis guy!

I was a little put off by how izak parked his vote on Zinger for the day. From Zinger's flip, I don't think I got as much insight on izak as I'd have hoped.

My post was equally made to see who would bring the topic up later. But here's the answer you were looking for.

I don't think izak is scum.

And my scum read on Meran just grew stronger. In order to explain the apparent contradiction between his stances on Izak and Shotty he says that, while Shotty is seen as town by some people, Izak is unanimously regarded as scum. Counting the "there are no mafia JKs", this Izak one is Meran's blatant lie #2.

[Rodion]

@jasonT1981 - I think you missed this:

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 1#p3337611

[Rodion]

:/ One for one isn't that bad.

It is when you consider Andrew was probably going to get lynched without you outing yourself.

Anyway, I'm not sure whether Shotty is serious. Here's his original opinion entering D2.

I've looked over this again, and with MoI's info, I think that andrew is scummier than silver.

VOTE: andrew

How? I just don't see how Andrew is that scummy. He is bad yes, but he's not scummy,

It doesn't look like a cop who got a N1 guilty on Andrew.

[Rodion]

Daycop, Rodion. And shotty is an idiot regardless of what her role is. Like Rodion said, zero reason to claim. And Castle Bravo sure as hell better not be claiming.

If he is a daycop then he should have 2 reports by now.

I start a motion to get Shotty to fullclaim.

[Rodion]

I just don't see MOi as Scum tbh.. why'd he out Ansrew if he was?

A possible answer would be "town cred".

[Rodion]

This is actually L-1 if you consider Shotty unvoted Silver and voted Andrew.

I agree that a lynch is not good until we get some explanations from Shotty, so UNVOTE: Andrew for now.

[Rodion]

Nope, I, in a way, killed Pappums. I have more than just a cop ability. I have 4 abilities actually. Each of which can be used a max of 4 times, and only 3 times in a consecutive day/night phase.

P-Edit: Haha ya scum shot me, I'm guessing ZeL1nK didn't shoot, or did he o.O(Hinting that he may be mafia)

P-Edit again: Could he really be guilty and that line just be part of your role flavour?

P-Edit 3rd: I'm a day cop(And More)

P-Edit 4th: Read above

In a way? Make yourself clear.

You also reported4 results so far: MoI, Zelink, Andrew and Rainbowdash. You mentioned Zelink was your "choice for the day". Does that mean your D3 action was already done? If you have 1 cop action per cycle, shouldn't you have provided 5 results by now instead of 4?

I still think a fullclaim is due here.

[Rodion]

He said he can use each action a maximum of 4 times.

I'm against a full claim until we get MoI's QT results.

Thanks, I had overlooked that!

So, Shotty, can you explain your actions in a simple format, please?

Something like:

"Pre-game - investigate ???
D1 -
N1 -
D2 -
N2 - kill Pappums
D3 -"

I also want explanations on why you decided to kill Pappums.

[Rodion]

Nor did he explain what he meant when I asked him.

[Rodion]

Alright.

Why Pappums? Before voting Andrew you had a vote on Silver. Wouldn't it have made more sense to put Silver's (VT or mafia) life on the line instead?

[Rodion]

He was screaming 3rd party to me :/

P-Edit: Why?

What made you think he was screaming 3rd-party?

[Rodion]

Vote Castle Bravo.

Can't get much easier than a confession.

@Shotty and Ballin - there are no jesters in this game

[Rodion]

2. Note there is no mention of the fact that he would have had to have chosen vollkan N1 to be his guard. Yet per his own statement he should have not been able to use his abilities if he didn't. And if he did he would have claimed it at the same time as claiming the Pappums shot if he was telling the truth.

I'm not following the logic here. What gives?

Also, his consecutive chain of 4 could have been broken by his "make guard" skill. His list had cop+cop+cop+make guard+cop. This is

exactly

why I like to stop the game and make a comprehensive list of questions (including a fullclaim request) when someone makes a scummy claim. Unfortunately, after DX and I temporarily unvoted Andrew, Junpei, Zelink and Meran voted+hammered him before we could hear from Shotty back in D2. Now Killerjester and Zelink derailed my attempt at a full claim and consequently what Shotty revealed is inconclusive as far as getting him caught in a clear contradiction. Other than the usual Meran+Junpei combo doing things I extremely dislike, it's worth noticing that Zelink blocked me twice (end of D2 and start of D3) when interrogating Shotty. A Shotty scum flip skyrockets Zelink in my scum reads.

[Rodion]

I think Vengeful's power is only triggered when he is lynched. And he can kill whomever he wants, not only the person that hammered him like a SS/bomb.

Peregrine, you still owe us a lot regarding reads and stuff. Do you think you can get it all done until the end of the week?

[Rodion]

Rainbow, Oversoul said he had investigate+track+roleblock and the option to trade that for investigate+investigate+investigate if he abdicated from using N1 powers, which he said he did.

[Rodion]

Is it cool if someone links me all of Oversouls current games? I don't mind bending the rules a bit if it won't get me mod killed. That is unless sifting through his games and "coming to the intuitive conclusion that he's telling the truth" is a mod kill.

I'm on that already. I believe he is referring to Toy Story Mafia and I've already PMed Scott Brosius to see what kind of information he's allowed/willing to give me about Oversoul.

[Rodion]

I like how CB's goon claim is being (almost since the beginning) changed to a SS softclaim. CB's biggest post today also has a "let me die and flip town so you can finally follow my leads" feeling attached to it. I'm not buying it for now (maybe a mason / neighbour says this was all previously combined to fish for reactions or something, only time will tell) and I'll stick to my CB vote, but I might change my vote to Oversoul/Shotty because they both look scummy with poor claims + can give us insight on other things (an unfortunate Shotty town flip at least gives us 3 confirmed townies).

I like the things Junpei has mentioned in his to do list for today, but I'd also like:

1 - the new guys (Mysterio/Jackalope/Unforeseen) to give us some reads. Unforeseen also has to explain his self vote.
2 - every player in the game to make a post after #2093 ( http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 1#p3349561 ) -> essentially, I want everyone to have a shot at declaring they possibly messed with Oversoul's investigation on CB

[Rodion]

Beyond finding the mafia neighborizer (null tell), he's also pointed out 3 VTs that no one seems to be denying (town tell). He should full claim if he's being lynched, but I'm satisfied with the work he's done so far.

I disagree twice.

1 - It's extremely easy for a mafia flavour cop to do that as well, so it can't be a town tell.

2 - Assuming he's telling the truth, I'm

not satisfied at all

with the work he has done. Here's a list of mistakes:

a) outed himself unnecessarily (if Andrew was going to be the lynch he did not need to tell us that he was mafia - waiting was the optimal move)
b) got Pappums killed, the ONE player I said should not be killed -> the fact that he had other scum reads to pick from doesn't help his cause
c) D3 investigated Zelink before asking the rest of the town whether Zelink was a good target (we could collectively come up with a better idea)
d) enhanced odds of a town PR being NKed since he outed 3 VTs (instead of merely saying they were pro-town)

He also said he outed himself because he was afraid mafia had picked his breadcrumbs. For God's sake, he claimed to have a defense mechanism that keeps him alive and sacrifices someone else, what was he afraid of?!?!?!

[Rodion]

It's D3, how do you expect the mafia to come up with 3 VTs by now? A JOAT makes more sense.

D1/D2/D3?

And you can call me a fisherman as many times as it pleases you, but to the extent of my voice and vote I'm not allowing Shotty's suspiciousness to be unsolved as we head into N3. If it depended on me, we'd have solved this clusterfuck back in D2 and Pappums would still be alive (assuming Shotty is speaking the truth, that is).

[Rodion]

No. Then again, a 4-shot day cop with a pregame action + 4-shot reverse bodyguard + 4-shot something else does not scream likely either.

[Rodion]

I know. Doesn't make it likely in my opinion.

Killerjester, do you think Shotty would be wise enough to use his 3rd action (close to) optimally?

[Rodion]

That seems simplistic.

Even those with a solid VI reputation?
What happens when they don't use their abilities optimally?
What are your thoughts on the list of mistakes I numbered against Shotty's possible town play?

[Rodion]

I'm starting this with a rant.

@Doctor - buddy, where's your brain? DX had hinted at Chkballin being a gunsmith and MoI told there was an investigative role in the neighbourhood. Chk had earlier told he joined the neighbourhood. If that wasn't enough for you to conclude that Chk had to be protected, oh boy...

See, KJ? This leads us back to our D3 discussion about asking VIs to fullclaim so we can play their roles for them. Not that the point here is "hey, doctor, claim now so we start telling you what to do", don't get me wrong. The point is that if someone claims a town PR and you see a myriad of suboptimal moves coming from them, you suspect it amd ask for the fullclaim so one of 2 options happen:
a) you comprehend that it's a lie and hang them
b) you teach him how to play their role so no more mistakes are made

Anyway. My top 3 town reads were all NKed after I disclosed them. I was right in all 3 of them. Before someone says "mafia can easily have 100% success in reads", it also looks like I'm cleared of being mafia due to Chk investigating me and getting a "no gun" report.

I'm not sure which role is responsible for this 2nd NK (SK, dumb vig, dumb JOAT etc), but at this point in the game I must reinforce my former request. Do NOT end days prematurely, even if you are sure you are hammering scum. It's always possible that someone has something to say. Think twicebefore you act, goddamnit.

FOS Foreseen (L-1), Killerjester (hammer)

VOTE: Castle Bravo

Shotty, full claim. My vote can change to you in the blink of an eye.

/rant

[Rodion]

By fullclaim I mean everything we already wanted to know yesterday + whatever you did since then.

MoI - I think it now falls on you to publish all of Chk's reports.

[Rodion]

As for the neighborizor talk- this hydra was recruited but not by andrew...we are currently assessing the reads we have on the members of the neighborhood before we talk to them too much.

~

BALLIN

My read on Rodion is that he isn't a threat and he isn't a day 2 lynch. At best Rodion is a serial killer, but I am almost positive he's town.

How would you have knowledge that lets you determine that a player is either town or a serial killer, but definitely not scum?

Castle Bravo > Could be any number of things. The way you've worded it, Gunsmith.

1. Someone unknown to the general population has claimed a direct investigative role in the QT.

On an unrelated note, Wiki says the alarmist is an anti-

cult

role.

[Rodion]

Care to give any reasons, Fourseen?

[Rodion]

Glad you're finally playing.

What's wrong with my first D4 post?

Which alignment do you accuse me of possessing?

[Rodion]

Oversoul was mafia he said he made fun of him in the mafia QT for ages therefore he is mafia. derpp

Because THIS was not enough evidence.

Yeah I read your post and I am still not convinced. I am all for killing Castle Bravo with extreme vengeance and prejudice...

You need to vote for me to do that.

Role claim:

mafia goon

[/color]

Why aren't you and MoI voting? I'm a scumread it's stupid for me to be vengeful.

Vote, vote little ball.

[Rodion]

We didn't get Junpei's track report yet.
We also failed to get Mysterio and Jackalope to say anything meaningful.
I'll say this again: getting CB kynched NOW would be ANOTHER premature hammer and I'm against it.

UNVOTE: Castle Bravo

Last premature hammers cost us Pappum's lfie because Shotty didn't spill all the beans and Chk's because nobody had the time to ask doctor to protect him when it was rather obvious that he was the gunsmith.

David - can you aid me in unvoting to delay this until we get more information?

[Rodion]

Guys, STOP NARROWING THE DAMN PR pool (or gambiting)!!! With Shotty's VT claims on MoI, Rainbow and Zelink + Silver's VT claim + Vezok and Izak recently claiming VT, it's getting easier and easier for a PR to be NKed.

[Rodion]

Questions to

everyone

:

1 - Do you believe Shotty's claim?
2 - Do you think Castle Bravo should already have been lynched by now and the derailing of his wagon that just took place is negative?

A simple yes or no will suffice, but feel free to elaborate if you want to. Please answer both questions;

[Rodion]

Let me ammend question #1: if you partially believe in Shotty's claim, please specify what you believe and what you don't.

[Rodion]

Rainbow, can you please elaborate on Vezokpiraka being solid town? Was it the VT claim?

[Rodion]

Um or I could guard make who we think is scum :/

Then they will simply refrain from targeting you with the NK.

I agree with Rainbowdash's procedure as far as directing the weak doctor skill. I suggest Meran/Junpei/Fourseen/Peregrine/Mysterio/Jakalope as the target.

[Rodion]

I still think a mafia-aligned player could have posted the same rant thread I did in general discussion, transforming it into a WIFOM null read. I didn't help me "confirm myself" at all, especially if you consider I was already pretty much confirmed by Chk.

Regardless, I apologize to town for getting 1 townie lynched and giving mafia a free night.

Now, Jason, what's up with DX's NK flavour changing midgame after people started to consider the possibility of a cult?

[Rodion]

I'm a priest. It fits, and it differentiated the kill flavour.

And you must admit, I did use it to rather excellent effect. :3

Your N3 kill was fantastic! Too bad we didn't have a doctor.