Open 320- Tit for Tat: Game Over!

[MagnaofIllusion]

Greetings to everyone I have crossed paths with before ... which is pretty much only Kondi and DarkCoffee.

Hello to everyone I don't know ... huzzah and well-met.

VOTE: Kondi

for being the last to confirm.

[MagnaofIllusion]

VOTE: Magma of Illusion cuz i feel like it

Man he's going to be pissed when he sees this ... oh wait, Magma of Illusion isn't even in this game. Whut?

In this thread Jilynne claims to be a NoPointinActingup Alt ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

1) What are your thoughts on No Lynch as a policy?
2) How do you feel about lynching inactives?
3) How lurky is lurky to YOU?

1. No Lynching should only happen in one very specific set of circumstances – when it is MYLO and there are no confirmed Town / obvious kill targets for the scum. That’s the only time when it is an acceptable option. Otherwise you are basically granting the scum a free kill at no risk to their lives via Town’s most potent weapon – lynching.
2. Inactive players should be prodded and replaced in strict accordance with the rules set down by the Mod. That said if said inactive player is active elsewhere on site that’s a pretty strong scum-tell, IMO.
3. I’m not sure what you are going for here? Asking what my threashold is for lurkers. Active lurking is pretty clear to spot.

Now I get to ask you some questions based on your RQS set

1. You’ve basically asked three Game Theory questions that have no ‘right’ answer per se. What scum-hunting can spring from this? I see you later use the word ‘tone’ as something you appear to think can be used to find scum. Please explain this also.
2. What sort of Mafia background do you have / what sort of games did you play previous? Did you come from an environment where scum-hunting was very Power-Role heavy?
3. If you are Town your responses give scum every indication that they can lurk and generally under-perform and get away with it. Any reason why you would specifically give this information away immediately as Town?

No, the reason I feel No Lynch is viable in that scenario is because lynching someone based on no scummy behavior gives no information. All it does is diminish town's number by one...and then another at night. If there's no clear candidate, then there's no information to be had from the flip. Sure, there's a 2/9 chance that we'll hit scum...absolutely. But there's a 7/9 chances of hitting a townie that would otherwise be alive to soak up the night-kill that night. And the night-kill gives just as much information if not more than the lynch in that scenario, because then the 1-2 power-roles will have time to do their work. Speaking of power-roles, with no clear lynch candidate there's a 1-2/9 chance of hitting one of THEM as well with a lynch on d1.

Please explain the following –

1. How in a 12 player game with 3 scum are the odds of randomly hitting scum is 2/9 and not 3/12?
2. Do you believe that no scum-hunting via dayplay is possible Day 1? I can show you many examples of scum lynched Day 1 based on dayplay and not Power Roles.

You may have tripped on of my personal scum-tells. I eagerly await your response.

Yes, Jazz, we get it...you were in a game with Jilyenne before. Perhaps you could expand on your comment...maybe, explain why it gives you Deja Vu for the rest of us who weren't IN that game...

instead of appearing to buddy with her right off the bat by sharing a little inside chuckle?

I’m really interested in the bolded. I’m curious why you thought DCJ’s 27 is a buddying play. It looks to me like a note of suspicion to me at first blush.

Jily was scum that game. I don’t see where you make any allusions to DCJ’s aligment in that game in 36 … you simply say that he ‘rage-quit’. I myself did dig enough to see that DCJ’s slot was Town.

I still haven't heard from Verydark on my little survey. Your input is invaluable sir.

Pop-quiz … you haven’t heard from me or at least 4 others (who have yet to actually post at all when you wrote this). Why single Verydark out?

--

Asking questoions again? Very scummy of you VE.

Trying to get out of RVS that soon? Very scummy of you IH

Scum-buddies here!

1. Why is Viscera asking questions ‘again’ scummy. Explain please.
2. Why is moving out of RVS as soon as possible scummy. Again, explain please.

--

It's more like you were being an asshole, so why should I fucking give you what you want when you didn't even respect me enough to ask politely.
It has nothing to do with the game itself.

So you are saying your post at 27, where you intimate that you have seen Jily post similarly in 1110, isn’t an alignment indication?

Jily was Mafia in that game. Please explain the Déjà vu comment if it isn’t game related then.

[MagnaofIllusion]

VOTE: VisceraEyes
malpascp and jilynne1991 are my other top suspects.
Explanations upon request.

Request.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Viscera

– I’m going to second Stephan’s request that you don’t answer directly within quotes when responding to players. Obviously it is not intended by you as a means of deception but it borders on quote tampering which is pretty consistently scummy. Also it is possible that people could easily misconstrue things you type into the quote as the words of the player you are quoting.

--

For all?

Absolutely. I didn’t ask for my health. If you have concrete reasons you suspect those 3 players I want to see them to help develop my read on you.

--

You misunderstand. Viscera said his 'joke' in such a way as to appear an asshole to me. That's what I was referring to. Whether I found him to be an ass or not wouldn't be game related. Saying things like "yeah we get it" just scream "You're irritating me now shut the fuck up, idiot" to me.

Thanks for clarifying.

Do you think Viscera, as scum, would be as openly insulting and abrasive as he has been so far?

--

Any other policy you wan't to share, where you can vote someone without calling them scummy? I have seen people getting prods that were very active in games normally and clearly not lurking.

1. What games have you seen where ‘very active’ players have gotten prods? I’d like a frame of reference for your stance here.

--

I learned to play mafia on the Team Liquid forums, where the games generally follow a 48hr day / 24hr night cycle...so the games were ever-so-slightly faster-paced. But you appear to be asking if I come from EpicMafia I've played on EpicMafia, but I found it to be full of trolls and I HATE how no-lynch is THE policy d1 (specifically because they're so dependent on PRs to do the heavy lifting.)

Interesting response. No, I was in no way asking if you came from EpicMafia. I’ve seen any number of forums sites where Days are compressed (as you describe). In most cases I have found that the level of Non-Power Role scum-hunting on those site is generally much weaker than it is here.

I'm simultaneously playing a Newbie Game...forgive my mix-up. This wasn't an intentional mistake designed to mislead town, if that's what you're implying

Did you have this same discussion in your Newbie Game where you might have had reason to copy / paste it into this thread as opposed to retyping? I ask because I find that often in set-ups with known Mafia distributions a tell I’ve discovered is for Mafia members to mix-up that number in responses.

You seem very concerned about people depending on the power roles doing all the work...which speaks to me that you yourself have EpicMafia background where that is RAMPANT.

It probably will be a good move in the future for you not to make such rampant assumptions like you have in many of your responses to me.

I didn't think that. I was prodding him for information by suggesting it, but at no point did I actually think he was buddying here.

So when you typed “appearing to buddy” you didn’t mean it at all?

What sort of information were you looking for? What was your impression of his posting then if you were smoke-screening about buddying?

I was simply pointing out that he had information that he wasn't sharing, I asked him to share it, he didn't.

Given the rather abrasive manner you asked in I’m not surprised he didn’t respond in a cooperative manner.

Patience...one at a time sir, one at a time. I single VeryDark out first because I hate his avatar...really, who uses nothing but WORDS in their PICTURE?! I just noticed that he'd posted, but hadn't posted again. Nothing else.

Are you incapable of addressing multiple players at the same time?

[MagnaofIllusion]

At this point the thread is moving pretty slowly with two players currently in replacement limbo and Sigma still V/LA. Hopefully Gamma has replacement luck and we can get moving on scum-hunting with a full set of players soon.

--

"Lacking in helpful content" is relative. In my posts I've answered questions directed to me and contributed my thoughts which is that it is too early to make a top scum pick.

I disagree, at least from a gameplay theory standpoint, that it is too early in the game to have seen something you find scummy. Does that mean said person is certified scum who must be killed ASAP? No, but following up on what you find scummy is the best way to further develop and strengthen reads.

--

Magna:
I will have to search for one, because the one in my mind, I can't link you to. But it is new to you that someone forgot to post that they are VLA and has been sended a prod? Because someone got a prod doesn't mean he is necessary a lurker and has to be lynched, that was my point. But okay I have played in a Game were you could
be proded on playerrequests after 24 hours. (I have never recieved a prod before, to take that thought away)

Oh I’m not saying it has never happened. From a general standpoint however I find that players who get prodded tend to be overwhelmingly players who are not active in thread. I myself am on V/LA more or less every weekend so I understand that posting it is sometimes missed.

Regardless someone getting a Prod isn’t grounds for immediately voting the player on that standpoint alone. Had said player been posting all over MS while not being active in thread I would strongly consider pressuring them. In general it is all about the play of the player and the circumstances of their low activity.

--

[MagnaofIllusion]

Mod – I’ll be V/LA from 4pm EST today until Monday morning for my usual weekend family duties.

Welcome LLD and Sleepy (whenever the heck you decide to actually show up).

--

No. She thought you were scum because you wanted to NL Day 1.

There is LEGITIMATE reason to suspect you as scum for that, and your reaction to her calling you scum was BAD.

I’m going to assume for the moment that you are reaction fishing from Viscera since he clearly didn’t call for a No-lynch Day 1.

OMGUS is a tool used by the scum to attack town and deflect their attacks.

@EVERYONE

– Remind me to come back to this later I very much have comments on this statement but currently have to wait to make them.

--

@Viscera

– You’ve expressed that you see Tone as a viable method of assessing the scumminess of posts. You’ve also stressed that Town needs to work together in scum-hutning. Please correct me if either of these impressions is incorrect.

Who does the general Tone of your post (which I feel to be specifically aggravating and insultingly dismissive in general) further the goals of helping others to ‘join’ you in working together with you?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Very well. I'll just replace out of the game since I'm so "displeasurable". I'm not scum, but in the name of not giving scum anymore information, I'm not going to claim. Good luck everyone!

Um whut? Why are you considering claiming before we even have posts from all the players again?

You are likely at 5 votes by my quick mental tally. With 12 alive it is 7 to lynch. You aren't even at L-1 with an offer to hammer ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

It's already done, mod is PM'd. I hope for your sake you cut my replacement some slack...you're going to be short a townie if you lynch him based on MY actions.

Whatever. GG

1.

Insert epic face-palm pic here ..

2. Are you directly asking for a replacement halo for who-ever replaces in? Whut is this ....

3. Appeal to Fear noted.

[MagnaofIllusion]

People should read games on this site before deciding if they want to play here, seriously.

Welcome Seraphim. Now we only need Sigma to return from V/LA and we actually have a full working playerlist (- Viscera's replacement but he's given plenty to work with).

And QFT on this statement.

[MagnaofIllusion]

So DCJ, why didn't you wait for a claim?

I hope this is a hypothetical "Why lord why" post since Darkcoffee is dead.

@Verydark

- I'd really like an explanation of why you started shouting to the rafters about how bad a lynch Viscera was BEFORE his flip.

[MagnaofIllusion]

So Magua, SleepyKrew, LL and MoI know eachother quite well, interesting.

Your assumption based on the Party Hat avatars (that’s where I guess you are getting it) isn’t completely valid. I have never played with SleepyKrew before this. Magua and LLD on the other hand you are correct about.

--

I thought I made it clear that I wouldn't back a lynch with baseless arguments. Sure, VE was over-the-top and abrasive, but none of his actions were scummy to me. The only person who even posted a somewhat convincing argument against VE was Sigma, and he didn't even vote for VE.

I disagree. As I noted Viscera’s reaction to abrasive play from LLD was not what I would expect from someone who was being so abrasive themselves. It’s quite easy to discern they are clearly Town before the flip when they aren’t in your Role-PM as your buddies …

Yeah, that was a noob mistake. I have yet to play any games with a vigilante, so now I'm up to speed.

Oh look, one of my favorite new tells. The “ooops it was a Newb mistake I didn’t understand the clearly posted Set-up in an Open Game” tell. Who pulled that same sort of play in Umbrage’s “Jungle Republic” Mafia? Cjdrum and Neil1113 both did, and both were Mafia.

So here, have this!!

VOTE: Verydark

--

I really don't like Seraphim. I really don't like a post that starts off with how town Viscera is looking and then ends with a vote on Viscera.

Reviewing Seraphim probably tomorrow …

--

I'll sheep that.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Seraphim
So Harry Potter lasted 2+ days?

Please elaborate on what Harry Potter has anything to do with voting Seraphim.

--

Same to you, LLD

Um clearly LLD wasn’t RVS voting you. The post she quoted was clear evidence of that.

Why are you claiming every vote on you today is an RVS vote?

--

Don't. Get. Me. Started.

I've done this. WAY too much.

Especially in NIGHT ACTIONS.

Good times … good times

[MagnaofIllusion]

Ummm ... I'm actually assessing from his "WOW YOU LYNCHED TOWN" statement and general Day 1 play that he's scum. Nice way to reverse the flow of events in your defense of Verydark.

Also, please explain what exactly is WIFOM about the "Lulz, it was a newb mistake" regarding Open Set-ups. Thanks!

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Magna, Magua: Can we form a town voting block? There's some shit that needs to be taken care of in this game currently.

I’m certainly amenable to that. Consider me in!

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That's a huge stretch. I haven't read Open 302, but neither cjdrum nor Neil1113 are newbies. verydark is. I had a townread on him even before the vig comment because his D1 play shows he obviously cares...unlike Seraphim or Sigma.

1. So you are saying that verydark is Town because he care? So scum, inherently don’t care?
2. I’d like you to assess your standards as to what constitutes a “newb”

Verydark joined this site on May 17, 2011. This game started on July 11, 2011. So that gives him an approximate tenure of 2 months at at the start of the game.

Open 302 – Jungle Republic started on April 26, 2011.

CJdrum joined MS on Februrary 21 2011. So that’s the same approximate spread.

You may find it a ‘huge’ stretch. I find it something worth noting and based on verydark’s play enough to support my vote at this stage.

--

What I'm getting at is you assumed he was scum, and then noted that if he was scum, he would know who the townies were. I bolded "It’s quite easy to discern they are clearly Town before the flip when they aren’t in your Role-PM as your buddies …" for a reason.

I drew a read that verydark is scum for his Day 1 play. When posting I indicated that I believed he was “Town-Cred” fishing scum for calling Viscera Town so strongly even before the flip.

You reasoning here is “The way you indicate you think he is scum invalidates your reasons why”. Which is frankly absurd.

Well, it could genuinely be a noob mistake. But maybe that's what he wants you to think, and it's actually a scum gambit. But maybe he knows you know that, so he wouldn't try a gambit like that. But maybe he thinks you think that, and thus could feasibly get away with the gambit...

And it goes on.

Ok, so by your standards any ‘slip’ or ‘tell’ is WIFOM. That’s good to know.

I wasn't even advocating VE's lynch. I was just saying what he had done so far was suspicious. Not to mention the AtE was a small part of my case. It was mostly his backtracking. I had intended to wait longer to get reads on more than one person before placing a vote.

So you weren’t advocating his lynch but found him suspicious. There’s a word for playing both sides of the fence like that …

--

Thanks. I love how all these "scum tells" I keep tripping for you all revolve around my inexperience, or

my aversion to lynching VE (who was town, if you don't recall).

It's these sensationalist accusations that gets townies killed. As I mentioned several times, I refuse to support lynches with little to no valid reasoning. It seems to me like everyone voted for VE to get him to shut up, and THEN made up a reason as to why.

I’ve highlighted the bolded to address it specifically. I wanted to address it specifically.

I do recall VE ended up flipping Town. Thanks for assuming I have the attention span of a sugar buzzed 5 year old. My issue is that you came in ‘guns blazing’ that he was absolutely Town before the Mod flipped him. Town has no reason to be so absolutely sure as they are the Uniformed Minority in this game where there are no Daycops or Masons. I’ve seen enough scum ‘Grandstanding’ on lynches for Town credit that when I see someone indicating that they are operating from a position of more information than they should have I find it scummy.

But since you were so absolutely sure that Viscera’s wagon was scum heavy who are your top three candidates for scum from there?

I notice many players here are in a huge hurry to finish the game. Go play epicmafia. I came here because I like a longer game with more information and more time to assess everyone.

Who are these ‘many players’ you are speaking of? The only person I see advocating a quick-lynch at this point is LLD. Magua himself is advocating waiting for Seraphim’s return before taking any significant action. Any reason you are using such sensationalist words and overblown assertions here?

[MagnaofIllusion]

MoI, if you're doing a voting bloc with LLD, you need to be voting me.

That's not (strictly, anyway) how a voting block works. The block discusses who they think it is best to vote as a group and does so. Each member has an equal voice in the process. As much as I think LLD can be a powerful Town force I'm not about to immediately subordinate my own scum-hunting to her.

Are you worried that the block will be voting you?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Mod – I’ll be V/LA from today at 4pm EST until Monday for my usual family weekend duties. And Saturday is a guaranteed bust because we are going to a Baseball game.

--

MoI actually gives off a residual scummy aura, due to his playstyle. I am always twitching at how he says things, but I ignore it for the most part.

I feel I should be somehow insulted by this …

Anyway since Magua is in for the ride I’m going to

UNVOTE: Verydark

Until we come to a consensus.

@LLD

– In considering your Sleepy ( I refuse to use SK for confusions sake … everytime I see it I want to yell ‘Its an open set-up, we don’t have a SK) case – do you have history with him that supports your Reaction-test equals Sleepy scum? I’d like further insight.

--

Okay, I thought blocs were always on the same person.

They will end up there. But there’s work to do first and the group just formed.

Can I be in voting bloc

Nope, sorry. I only work in voting blocks with players I am sufficiently familiar with that I think I can judge their play in the block against past history.

I’ve never played with you.

--

I *really* don't like Sigma asking what's scummy about criticizing someone without voting them, and then when I answer, his response is literally "WIFOM". Looking back, this just looks worse in correspondence with his answer to Magna on newb slips: "WIFOM, WIFOM, WIFOM"

I concur.

@LLD

– can I get your thoughts on Sigma?

Jungle Republic was also cjdrum's *at least* 5th game (it's the fifth listed on his wiki, but I know for a fact he was also in Open 295 which isn't listed because he replaced out). And cjdrum is a very active and prolific poster. Length of time alone just doesn't cut it.

The difference between 4 previous games and 2 isn’t very significant, IMO. Time alone might not cut but I don’t see much difference between the two. We will have to agree to disagree on this element, I guess.

[MagnaofIllusion]

As for a meta on SleepyKrew, I don't really have anything. I can do some research if its important to you.

No I don't want you running for research. I just wanted to know if there was more to your read than what I can see in thread.

Thanks for the info on that end.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Mod – I’ll be V/LA from today at 4pm EST until Monday for my usual family weekend duties. And Saturday is a guaranteed bust because we are going to a Baseball game.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Why so eager to remind us of your V/LA?

Because I’m a moron who is trying to make sure I post it in all my games and just looked at my last post and not the one before

--

Have fun~! Who is playing?

Dayton Dragons, a local affiliate of the Cincinnati Reds. Also some other team I don’t give a rats ass about.

We get free Hats! Hats for all!!!

[MagnaofIllusion]

I’m a little surprised there was not more activity over the weekend.

I’m glad that Seraphim is back and we should have a full compliment of players now. More activity from Sigma, malpa and verydark needs to happen soon.

--

1. I wanted to join because I have townreads on all three of them. I'll probably end up voting with them anyway, so no biggie.

So you are saying that the fact that a Voting Block is always going to be voting outside its membership had nothing to do with your decision?

If not why didn’t you just follow along as you said above and not specifically ask to be included?

3. Reactiontest. While I didn't expect it to produce anything, there's always a chance.

Ok, what sort of reaction to your question (which I saw as fluff, BTW) would have been a ‘scummy’ reaction?

--

From all the players not voting one, there is one that has never voted all game. That is getting riducules, even if you are very coutiness.
Vote: Sigma

So you are voting Sigma for not voting all game long? Is that the only reason?

What do you think about the short length of Day 1 combined with Sigma’s V/LA for much of the Day and the rather short length of Day so far as it relates to this vote?

[MagnaofIllusion]

MoI, we're going with your plan today.

Unvote;Vote: VeryDark

Ok, I'm more than happy with this move.

VOTE: verydark

Magua

- Come on over my friend!

[MagnaofIllusion]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: verydark
Just a note, LYLO tomorrow if we mislynch.

Wow, I’ve never seen more compact wagon distancing than this ever. You join the alternative wagon to your own and simultaneously make an off-hand comment that tomorrow is LYLO if it is wrong?

--

Better idea: You follow *me* and vote Sigma. I've seen nothing out of that slot except negative shoot-downs combined with a disturbing lack of positions.

At this stage given play I would not object to a Sigma lynch. I do want to see more from both Sigma and Seraphim today.

Do you object to verydark due to a Town read or just what you perceive as more scummy alternatives?

Nevermind, I just saw

328

.

--

Let's remember how rapidly Lady pushed for a VE lynch, and was wrong. She's trying to rush the game again, if you're so fucking impatient, why don't you just, I don't know, not play mafia and go watch MTV or something more flashy to keep your attention.

So you are saying Town never actively push a lynch that they believe in?

And your obsession with calling anyone who actually votes and scum-hunts impatient is getting old.

What would your solution be? That no-one votes until we get much closer to deadline? What is an acceptable speed of the game for you?

[MagnaofIllusion]

There's no rationalizing with the insane. This game is being led by scum, and everyone is cool with that.

Oh, so everyone is crappy but you. Gotcha.

Who are the scum leading your wagon / controlling the game again? Is it Sleepy / LLD as (IIRC) you intimated eaerlier?

Why not directly answer my last questions to you?

[MagnaofIllusion]

This thread has a conspicuous lack of Seraphim and Sigma. This, again, needs to be rectified quickly.

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Yeah, I'm just going to go on the biggest wagon of those 4, which at the moment is verydark. Notice his misrep of me? Cool.

Um,whut? You’ve just declared you have 4 suspects and you don’t care which is the biggest wagon … you will just vote for whichever is the most viable regardless of their play?

--

I'm still curious how I'm misrepping you. You are on board to basically lynch anyone except Lady.

Why do you continually keep excluding myself and Magua from your list of people you claim Sleepy would lynch?

[MagnaofIllusion]

No, I

do

care which is the biggest wagon among those 4, because that' the one I'll join.

Yeah, I fucked up that sentance.

It should have read "you dont' care who is the scummiest, you will just join".

In summary - you are stating you'll join whatever wagon of theirs is most viable independant of how individually scummy you find them, correct?

[MagnaofIllusion]

The lack of Serpahim / Sigma / Malp activity and eventual flaking makes me think one is probably scum. Because flaky, lurking Town players encourages scum to do the same since we don’t really have the luxury of a “pick a lurker” lynch at this stage if we are wrong.

--

Lady and Sleepy are on my scumdar.
So is anyone else suspicious of SleepyKrew?

Is this your answer to the “Who are the scum pushing my wagon” question? If so then thanks.

Is your LLD suspicion grounded in anything more than “She’s playing TOO FAST”?

Sleepy certainly is on my radar but I’d like to know if vote-hopping is the main case you have on him.

Your girlfriend CONSISTENTLY avoids questions. Is that ok?

What questions other than Viscera’s rather useless ones (they were useless) did LLD dodge, in your opinion.

[MagnaofIllusion]

UNVOTE: verydark
VOTE: Seraphim

At this stage Sigma and Malp are both being replaced so Seraphim is the lone "inactive". And I don't see any change coming from verydark so I will return to him to affect a lynch as necessary.

But Seraphim needs 'encouragement' to actually read and play the game.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Chainsaw defense is scummy depending upon flips.

I forget LLD ... who did he Chainsaw defend again?

Yes, I'm too lazy to ISO you both ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

MOD – I’ll be V/LA from 4pm EST today until Monday morning for my usual weekend family duties.

Welcome Shift-Hydra. I just want the thread full and active.

Ok, Seraphim looks to be posting.

UNVOTE: Seraphim
VOTE: verydark

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I thought I posted my post in this goddamn thread. And I deleted it. GODDAMMIT. It amounted to:
MoI reading town
SleepyKrew reading town
Magua reading mostly town
Verydark leaning scum
LLD SCUMSCUMSCUM

Vote: Lady Lambdadelta

I can elaborate as I did in my original post(DAMN YOU ABSENT MIND) but I don't have time at the moment.

Note to self … look into meta of “Oh, my post got eaten” to see if it is strongly correclated with scum.

I’d very much like elaboration on why LLD and verydark are likely scum.

Do you think LLD would actively bus her partner when my early pressure slid off him?

--

Sorry guys, I was warned about my V/LA very fast, and didn't had the time to say so in every game. I was expecting Magua to tell you that, as he knew I was V/LA, but it's funny that SK noticed it first...

I will read everything new.

btw: I don't want to be replaced

There had best be significant content in your next post that should be made before I come back from V/LA.

--

[MagnaofIllusion]

You say voting bloc has two townies. It's a three person voting bloc, actually. And how do you know they're townies? SCUMSLIP (sorry MoI)?

Why are you apologizing again? Because you can't help playing anti-Town regardless of alignment?

There's a pretty clear answer to this question but I'll let Luxury actually answer and see if my immediate thought is correct.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Expect a long post from me by days end, I need to catch up. It looks like there's even more replacements.

Magua if this promise isn’t made good on I’m going to make a stern face at you and tell you to get you vote on verydark for Voting Block unity purposes.

You’ve been warned.

--

Kay, Seraphim is now officially null and I'd be against his lynch at this point.

So you are saying this not because of actual Seraphim posts but because Luxury is pressing you on the issue of your read? Scumtastic.

--

I keep making ISOs and rereading some pages and I don't get anything usefull. Maybe my scumhunting skills are not in best shape. I'll try again at night.

I know that in almost every game there is someone in the scum team that is generally accepted as "one of most pro-town players". That's why i make possible connetions even with people I currently see as town.

I now have an official second suspect if I can’t convince the rest of you to get on verydark.

You promised content before I went on V/LA Friday. You have failed to deliver. And then we get this.

This post says two things –

1. I can’t scum-hunt.
2. I think my best bet is to fling mud in a wide arc at all the players who generally are considered Town.

Neither one of these comes from a player with a Town perspective.

@LLD and Magua

– Will you join me on a Malp wagon if we can't come together on verydark / Seraphim? Our voting block isn’t being very blocklike


--

People to stop replacing out would be nice. Also, more people voting LLD would be a fantastic idea.

You aren’t going to get this wagon going. If you want to be productive you should start pursing an alternate suspect today.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Really? The 2 wagons are going to be malp and seraphim?

Well for some reason some people (cough, Magua) can’t see the clear indications of scum radiating off you in waves.

Does anyone feel that LLD is town or is leaning town?

I have every reason to believe LLD is Town. Her play is very much Town LLD.

Pop quiz – why don’t you actually post a case. And your “They are mimicking each others vote” isn’t a case. Show how the votes are being mimicked. And then explain the scum motivations for them.

Also what happened to the promised content? Hmmmm?

--

Yes, it makes him look bad. But he's also the third person to do it (Seraphim and malpascp being the other two) and unless I'm about to wake up with stained sheets[1], they're not *all* mafia.

So if you are washing that element away from all three (which you have to by the “they are all doing it” argument) what separates Seraphim from very?

--

Damn it SK, you really like blood.
I will make it more fair to everyone.

Unvote, Vote: Seraphim

You are making it ‘fair’ by hopping onto the next most viable wagon?
And you aren’t posting anything in the way of reads / content?

UNVOTE: Verydark
VOTE: Malpascp

THIS IS L-1. Anyone who wants to hammer should ask for a claim first. Time is short but not short enough to not follow good Town play procedures.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Magua

- so you are saying he "OH MY GOD YOU KILLED VISCERA YOU BASTARDS" rant before the Mod had actually flipped Viscera is a Newb Town tell? Because I see it as a Newb scum tell personally. The case on verydark is hardly just 'not delivering content'. You know every well that is the case.

[MagnaofIllusion]

The wagon on VE formed during RVS, but stuck till he was lynched.

Looking back, I still don't think there was enough ammunition to lynch him. He was very over-the-top, but I didn't find his play style scummy, everyone essentially lynched him because he was loud. After sleepy replaced generic name, he jumped on the VE wagon without giving a reason. Moments later, LLD replaces in, and immediately votes for VE. She then tunnels him until he's lynched, basically applying any and all scum traits she can to his neutral play.

Here’s my first problem with this statement. Look at the bolded and then let’s examine the wagon.

VisceraEyes(6) IH, SleepyKrew, Lady Lambdadelta, StefanB, Seraphim, malpascp

So if the wagon on Viscera ‘formed during RVS’ how do you account for the fact that Sleepy and LLD were the second and third on the wagon? Especially in light of your narrative above which looks to cast both as Non-RVS votes.

Also, did you expect players who replace in to not act on their reads and move their votes?

As to your “Don’t think there was enough ammunition” argument – I think you are understating things. Viscera’s play around LLD was scummy as heck. He pressured DCJ in an abrasive manner but when LLD did the same to him he more or less flipped out and threatened to replace.

Oh noes, VE flipped town. What a surprise, seeing as how he was lynched when many games are still in RVS. Of course, I take the brunt of attention from the mislynch. Which is funny, because I DIDN'T EVEN VOTE FOR VE, AND URGED PEOPLE NOT TO (until we had more info). This somehow gets turned around to be anti-town behavior. But no one starts to wagon me...just yet.

You seem to be missing the point. Your constant pressure against the wagon is a tell. A tell of “I know this is a mislynch so I’m going to do everything in my power to position myself off it and make sure my feelings are known”. I myself didn’t have a solid scum read on Viscera but until he flipped I couldn’t be sure he was Town.

You on the other hand were dead sure before hand. Maybe you just have absolutely fantastic reads. Or perhaps you dropped a pretty strong scum-tell looking for Town cred. I’m inclined to believe the latter.

As for the “when games are in RVS” angle that’s not really relevant. Scum get caught all the time early in ‘RVS’ for their behavior. Look at the recent “Buffy the Vampire Slayer” Mafia game where LLD and I basically locked on Jason-scum early and rode his lynch based on RVS play Day 1.

That's right, they both say NOTHING (LLD quotes a useless malpasc post, which me just comes off as noob, not scum), and cast a vote for malpasc.

SCUM BUDDIES!

Well, the gig is up. MoI starts pushing me, and what a surprise, Sleepy and LLD jump on board the wagon with the most fuel at the time.

So you think that LLD and Sleepy are scum-parnters working in tandem so blatantly together by synchronizing their votes?

--

That's not what he said. He said:

#155: "Are you guys fucking serious? If VE flips town, you are ALL on my shit list. I will go through and ISO each of you because its guaranteed that scum is on this wagon. There is absolutely no need to put someone at L-1 and rolefish this early in the game."

#158: "Ok, you're so overly willing to hammer, and yet after reading you in ISO, you have gave NO argument for why. You and VE have obviously had some back and forth aggressiveness, but you have not fully explained WHY you're voting him. Your hammer vote seems VERY opportunistic."

#159: "Please, please, allow VE to at least respond or get prodded before you hammer. Not letting him defend himself is absolutely anti-town.

His last post was yesterday...give him till tomorrow to post.

We have ten days until the deadline, there is NO REASON to rush this lynch."

#162: "Wow, if you just lynched a townie, I URGE everyone to vote for you in day 2. You are probably the most anti-town player I've EVER encountered."

That's fucking not "YOU KILLED VISCERA EYES YOU BASTARD," that's "OMG WHY ARE YOU RUSHING AND PUSHING THIS LYNCH THROUGH WHEN WE HAVE PLENTY OF TIME."

Great job in transcribing his posts. My point remains.

Everyone of those posts is crafted from the standpoint of “I’m positioning myself as AGAINST this myslnch”, which betrays inside knowledge that Viscera was not scum. We are definitely going to disagree on the inherent scumminess of said play.

In reviewing your transcription I also notice verydark’s little DERP up on the death of IH / DCJ. Thanks for reminding me about that little piece of scumminess.

Whereas Seraphim's content today can be summarized as, "Oh, I see there's a wagon on me. Whelp, I'm happy to vote the other guy."

Except that ‘other guy’ in question would be verydark if Seraphim was simply pushing the convienant wagon. Yet instead he goes after LLD who isn’t going to be lynched today. His content may be weak but it doesn’t scream “Lulz, I’m scum who is just going to take the easy route”.

You don’t think verydark and Seraphim are scum together. So what play is Seraphim-scum making here? Distancing from partner LLD (who I don’t see as scum at all) or staying off the verydark-Townie wagon? Or both?

[MagnaofIllusion]

I see you didn't really address my questions but spent this post telling me why my read is crap. Noted.

For the record can you actually answer the following?

1. So if the wagon on Viscera ‘formed during RVS’ how do you account for the fact that Sleepy and LLD were the second and third on the wagon? Especially in light of your narrative above which looks to cast both as Non-RVS votes.

2. Also, did you expect players who replace in to not act on their reads and move their votes?

3. So you think that LLD and Sleepy are scum-parnters working in tandem so blatantly together by synchronizing their votes?

--

I've noticed this trend in the few games I've played so far, and it really fucking irks me.

It seems that, generally speaking, no one cares if it's a mislynch D1. But from the games I've reviewed (not played) you can usually credit town losses to a derailment beginning with the first lynch.

I note you are very passionately pissed off about a problem that doesn't exist. I absolutely care if Day 1 is a fucking mislynch or not. Town always wants to lynch scum Day 1 if possible. Some facts to point out ...

1. Day 1 there are always more Town than scum. Even with good reads Town are going to be lynched more often on pure statistics.
2. Of course Town games which are losses are more generally going to have mislynches Day 1. Town games with Wins are more likely to have Day 1 scum lynches. But I can point out any number of Town games that are wins that started with a Day 1 mislynch. So trying to link at mislych Day 1 to "no-one" cares is overblown.

[MagnaofIllusion]

IH cast RVS vote on VE. Generic name cast his vote which he never explained before he replaced out (so we'll call that an RVS vote), Sleepy left the vote the same, without explanation until LLD votes, then he claims sheeping, so we'll call that an RVS vote, and then Lady cast her vote and began her tirade against VE. So at best, Lady was the first non RVS vote.

Your points 2 and 3 I see your opinion. I don't necessarily agree but don't want to argue just to argue.

This on the other hand I want to address.

You originally said "The wagon formed on Viscera and stayed there". I don't count 2 RVS votes as a 'wagon'. I feel like you were trying to bolster the gravity of the situation with that statement.

So your stance is that aside from DCJ (who you definately fingered as scum pre-flip) the scummiest votes on Viscera were Sleepy and LLD in the second and third positions? I just want to be clear.

[MagnaofIllusion]

But the difference is, that if someone hammers out of necessity (potentially me) it's not scummy if the hammered flips town.

It's also not anything but Null. If malp is Town someone hammering him at deadline out of necessity could be doing it for either scum or Town motivations. So it doesn't 'clear' anyone.

[MagnaofIllusion]

But what would be scummier, hammering at deadline or not hammering at all?

Neither has a 'scummier' value. Not hammering at all simply means those that didn't hammer are more likely to be scum with said person who dodged the hammer. You can't judge that until said person's alignment is public knowledge.

Anyone hammering has motivation to do so regardless of alignment.
Anyone not hammering only has motivation to do so if said person is a scum partner. Town in this set-up isn't really in position to have that sort of motivation.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Really? Because I've been able to get soooooo much information from their combined 25 posts.

Um, whut? Are you saying that Malp hasn't been directly scummy in his play? Do you read his posts and say "This comes from a Town perspective"

At what point would you advocate lynching those you label as lurkers?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Oh, yeah. Because verydark-scum is going to forget who his team killed.

You can't be serious.

Go back and read my ISO on this issue. I’m absolutely serious. You don’t like it? I don’t really care.

You defend verydark as Newbie but when he drops strong “Newb scum” tells you try to dismiss it out of hand. Scumtastic.

Your point is that he said something he didn't say. I showed all the things he said, none of which were "OMG YOU GUYS VISCERA IS GOING TO FLIP TOWN". Your response isn't, "Oh, Magua, you're so right as usual," it's "Whatever"?

That's fucking scummy.

Oh, Magua is now a literalist? Interesting to know.

The point was not that he posted those exact words about Viscera. The point is that each and every one of those posts was crafted to distance himself from the wagon and then start casting doubt on everyone on it even before he knew for certain Viscera’s alignment.

Once again … it’s a subtle betrayal of the fact he is using inside knowledge that Viscera isn’t his partner.

That’s fucking scummy? Nope, that scum-hunting. Your next section, on the other hand, ..

What are *you* talking about? At the point where he said that, verydark had no votes on him.

At this point, votes were as so (starting at #477, ending at #486):

malpascp(4) StefanB, Lady Lambdadelta, SleepyKrew, MagnaofIllusion
Seraphim(3) Luxury, Magua, malpascp
Lady Lambdadelta (1) Seraphim
SleepyKrew(1) verydark

His exact words: "Posting from iPad. Not exactly wild about either lynch option for obvious reasons. Will vote malp to prevent no lynch but that's about it. Post in more detail later."

I stand by my read.

No, what the FUCK are you talking about. You said Seraphim derped in today and dropped a vote on “the other guy”. Here’s what ACTUALLY happened –

Seraphim dropped in at 397 with the following reads and post –

HOLY FUCK.

GODDAMN.

I thought I posted my post in this goddamn thread. And I deleted it. GODDAMMIT. It amounted to:
MoI reading town
SleepyKrew reading town
Magua reading mostly town
Verydark leaning scum
LLD SCUMSCUMSCUM

Vote: Lady Lambdadelta

I can elaborate as I did in my original post(DAMN YOU ABSENT MIND) but I don't have time at the moment.

So verydark is a leaning scum read and LLD is a solid Scum read. The previous vote-count at 385?

Votecount #15
verydark(3) Lady Lambdadelta, MagnaofIllusion, SleepyKrew
SigmaEXE003(1) StefanB
SleepyKrew(1) verydark
Lady Lambdadelta (1) malpascp
Seraphim(1) Magua
malpascp(0)
Magua(0)
StefanB(0)
MagnaofIllusion(0)
Not Voting: Seraphim, SigmaEXE003
With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch!

The only vote change between 385 and 397 was me voting Seraphim and getting off verydark.

He voted LLD to put her at 2 votes which was tied with verydark at that point. So there is a fucking verydark wagon when he votes. Thanks for throwing crap out there.

If you are attacking him for voting the “other guy” as Malp to prevent a no-lynch that’s ludicrous and fucking scummy as hell since you have stated you would do the EXACT SAME THING.

--

I'm VT.

I don't really think Seraphim is scum, so:

Unvote, Vote:LLD

So when you voted Seraphim as the leading wagon you didn’t think he was scum but did it all from a survivalist perspective as a VT?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Not much time tonight since I am so tired and will be V/LA til Monday.

We are in LYLO. I think Mass-claim is the proper play since it should clear multiple Townies or limit the lynch to a counter-claim / role-cop result.

I suggest we drop on FOS to determine the first person to claim and popcorn from there. Any objections?

FOS - verydark

[MagnaofIllusion]

First things first –

VOTE: Sleepy

You are confirmed scum since you have claimed my role.

I’m the Role-cop

.

Night 1 and I submitted cop actions on verydark and have been role-blocked each Night. Given my vocal pressure towards verydark I’m not surprised about that outcome. I’m more or less convinced he’s scum with Sleepy but after Victorian Vampire Mafia I operate by a simple rule – Never vote outside a claim you know to be fake. My vote isn’t moving today.

--

Everyone who hasn’t claimed should do so and do so truthfully. There is no advantage for the Back-up Jailkeeper to claim VT. In fact it is a complete disadvantage to Town.

--

Did you see the part where I said I had to clarify something with Gamma? I wanted to make sure that you weren't the town-aligned backup.

If you really were the Rolecop you should have known that each role was explicitly stated in Post 2 and had an eye on it when you received your results.

--

Magna's first two posts read as scummy to me (they both looked strange, overcompensatory in a way). I'm having difficulty really reading anything else of his for alignment. Shift had him as a weak townread, I have him as somewhat scummy. His scumhunting/posting in general look genuine, but he's the kind of player who will look similarly in that respect as town and scum, and I don't see anything in particular that makes me strongly feel that he's town. From someone like magna, that in and of itself is probably enough to give me some suspicion.

1. Please elaborate more than a vague ‘overcompensatory’ and ‘strange’ on what in my first two posts is scummy.
2. What, in your estimation, makes someone Town if not genuine scum-hunting. I’m very curious.

[MagnaofIllusion]

And LLD claims scum.

Nice ... but that makes me completely re-think Verydark.

Good job on tying yourselves so closely together that I would not expect you to be partners. Cudos.

Also nice move on suggesting the voting block. I didn't think as scum you would make that move. Especially after how badly it worked out for scum in Buffy Mafia.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Who am I scum with? Name my scum buddies. Go.

Magua is confirmed scum to you. Further, by virtue of MoI's claim, MOI is confirmed scum to you.

So are you saying that... the scum team is Myself/Magua/MoI?

Are you on CRACK?

Nice distancing from your partner LLD.

Notice that LLD's suddenly put on the full court press to seal the deal.

Of course Stephan / Luxury can't be a scum team. Scum has three members.

Yourself - Sleepy - ??? (leaning Luxury). You act as if your pushing of Viscera Day 1 / very and malp Day 2 / Magua and myself Day 3 with Sleepy isn't obv obv obv.

Continue to spam and proclaim "game in the bag" all you want.

You've claimed scum. After Sleepy scum is hung you can be next.

[MagnaofIllusion]

You're using VD's buddybuddy case now? You're really desperate MoI.

No, you are desperate faking a RoleCop result in LYLO when you butchered it so badly with the "Had to ask the Mod" lulz fest.

Die, scum, die!!!

[MagnaofIllusion]

Wow ... that went much quicker than I expected.

Good game everyone. Town got really hampered by low activity Day 1 and Day 2, IMO.

More thoughts later.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Also, no problem with the Mafia QT being released.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I caught 2/3 of the scum this last day. Verydark was my only mistake. >.>

I had to flip my ENTIRE reads this game because of that shit.

The only reason I didn't push harder for your death is that your reads were SO bad this game.

Yeah, I considered not counterclaiming Sleepy but I figured what the heck.

[MagnaofIllusion]

My final thoughts before I take this off my bookmarks.

To Gammagooey

– Good moderation. You handled the unnecessarily high levels of replacments as well as could be expected. I see no problems with the Vote Counts myself. Good solid effort. Plus you provided party hats!

To my fellow Mafians

– Cheers! I was worried about the last day when it blew up (see Magua, we should have just killed LLD ) but everything worked out in the end.

Stephan

– you kept your cool under the stress and positioned yourself well to quickhammer for the win. Cudos.

Magua

– You were right about being Copped N2. Next time don’t push crap cases on your partners to arouse suspicion

To the Town

– Inactivity is not your friend. Enough said on that front.