Newbie 1136: DarthYoshi's Dystopia of Death (Fin--who won?!)

[Ghostlin]

/confirm

[Ghostlin]

Hey, I'm posting my intro post here:

Hello, I'm Ghostlin, your friendly IC. I am here to teach you the game, and help you with any suggestions and problems you may have.

I have a few games under my belt, I've been town much more often than scum (I have completed a sum total of one game as scum and that was an...unusual game to say the least).

If you're new to the site, read the wiki. Wiki can be found here: http://mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page

The primary things I'd focus on when you read the wiki is theory and things like WIFOM that aren't covered in full detail below. You can read the tells section, but that can get sketchy, mostly because if it's a popular town/scum tell, guess what, it either isn't anymore, or has been applied in certain situations by scum.

A few terms that get used a lot on this site (and possibly this game) are:

OMGUS:

Oh, My God yoU Suck. In essence, you are voting me because I am voting you.

WIFOM:

Wine In Front Of Me. An argument that lends itself to circular reasoning. Be careful of these, while WIFOM itself is not scummy, it is a tool often employed by scum.

EBWOP:

Edit By Way Of Post: if you've forgotten something or otherwise need to edit, you will have to double post, because even if you CAN edit your post, all rules say you shouldn't.

Scum/Scummy:

Mafia/Mafia like play.

FOS:

Finger of Suspicion. HOS is Hand of Suspicion. With a player's name after it, it generally means 'I suspect you.' HOS generally more severe than FOS For example:

FoS: Ghostlin

IGMEOY:

I've Got My Eye On You. A lesser form of FoS. Used when someone's done something you don't agree with, but you're not sure it's scummy.

Hammer:

Last vote on a wagon used to lynch.

L- {number}:

Number of votes to lynch.

LaL:

Can acutally mean two things. Lynch all Liars, or Lynch all Lurkers.

LYLO:

Endgame where if town mislynches (and town MUST lynch), the game is over. Stands for LYnch or LOse

MYLO:

Endgame where if town mistlynches, the game ends, HOWEVER, town does not have to lynch. (No lynch is an option.) Stands for MislYnch and LOse.

PoE:

Process of Elimination. Self explanatory.

RVS:

Random Voting Stage. You vote for people for random reasons until someone slips. You also apply pressure at this stage. Reaction fishing is popular.

RQS:

Random Questioning Stage. You ask questions to start conversation, not always related to the game.

VI:

Village Idiot: A player that plays consistently bad--note a VI can be either town or scum.

V/LA

: Vacation/Limited Access. If you're on V/LA, you are saying you can't post (or post often) until a certain date due to no access to the site.

Now, here's some generic tips:
1) Post something everyday. It'll help you not get lynched (good for both alignments), keep the game interesting and moving and that will make the experience fun for everyone.
2) Don't give up. Even if you're going to get lynched, what you say now will be important later. Keep in mind while you can't vote during the hammer, you can keep talking until the mod locks the thread (called Twilight).
3) Generally, the only times you reveal your role are when you are one vote away from lynch and someone's willing to hammer (L-1 hereafter), it's time for massclaim (usually at lylo), or you are the Cop and have a Guilty result on someone, OR someone else has claimed your role. Generally, it's not best to reveal your role at any other time. (And Scum: do not ever, ever claim you are scum. Yes, you'd think this'd be obvious. People have done it.)
4) Play to your win condition. Don't ruin the game for others. This includes things like self-voting and hammering for town, and revealing your scumbuddies as mafia. (Also, people get modkilled for the last one depending on the mod and the game.)
5) Vote. Do it. For many of you it's the only power you have.
6) You only No Lynch in MyLo, usually. So, do not vote No Lynch outside of MyLo. The most important reason for this is that generally speaking, if you No Lynch, you are giving scum a free nightkill. At Mylo, it's helpful for PoE purposes. Outside of it, town shouldn't ever No Lynch, which includes deadline. (Why is this in generic tips? Well, if you do it as town outside of Mylo, you're hurting your chances to win the game, if you do it as scum, well, site meta says it's generally a tie between a newbie thing to do or scummy.)
7) Pay attention to L-1! Once the final vote is cast and someone is lynched, there's no taking it back.
8) Days take as long as they take. Day 1 should take almost three weeks. Be here for the long haul.
9) Have fun.

Acutal RVS to follow this post, I had to get my educational stuff there.

[Ghostlin]

1) I actually like mafia and third party roles, mostly because of the direct interaction with other minds. For example, when you're playing the majority of those roles, you're trying to keep suspicion off and people guessing, and that IS fun. After that, VT, because I don't like censoring myself as much as you inevitably sort of do as Town PR. If I get a Town PR I prefer Doctor to Cop, mostly because Doctors mostly confirm innocents, and there are times when it is hard for people to believe a Guilty when you're a Cop.
In my case Interesting Role>Alignment, tho'. I like something to do at night, and I like guessing power interactions most of all. One of my favorite roles of all time was a Town Mason Macho Roleblocker that got a Vig instead when protected by my mason buddy.
2) If you're prod dodging, you go on the scumlist. If you're not posted in a while, then I don't worry about you, you may be replaced soon.
3) Analysis--I've read too many games where great scumhunters use their gut and ignore the facts and lose.
4) Meta--Meh. I think it's useful in some respects, but the ultimate way to play this game is that scum meta and VT meta should be closely weighed towards Town play if the player is good.

[Ghostlin]

Vote: Paradox{/b]

The hamster is making my blood sugar rise.

[Ghostlin]

EBWOP:

Vote: Paradox

[Ghostlin]

The entire point of RVS is using your vote to draw out more information. (To see how other people react to it, etc.)

If that's the case, shouldn't it be better to bring someone to L-1, see how they react then move to each other person in order?

You don't bring people to L-1 less you really suspect they're scum. Up to L-2 is fine--and early wagons are encouraged to see how folks react. L-1 encourages hammers, accidental and not, and we do NOT want Day 1 end early even if we catch scum through RVS/RQS.

I am Mountain Time Zone, but my hours will vary.

My posting style tends toward the wordy--but I will post consistently (like I make an effort to post once a day).

See above.

Paradox: Do you have any questions for anyone to get the information you want to make a decision?

[Ghostlin]

5. GMT-8, will change to +8 from 8-20
6. a few lengthy posts.
7.a lot as i'm hopefully not going to be lynched day 1

Why would you be lynched Day 1?

[Ghostlin]

Con's eagerness to promote folks to L-1 early seems to be partially dissonant to his 'Don't Quickhammer' stance. (Reasoning: L-1 increases the chance of quickhammering---reason why you avoid it in RVS.)

Day one is the most important day for newbie games. More scum blowouts happen from rushing the process than not.

Theam's stance seems to be more focused on survival (at least past Day 1) versus more important concerns--making sure town has enough information to go on, for instance

before

you get lynched is more important. In English: while you should fight against your lynch (if you're Town, you're fighting for the only confirmed townie in the game, if you're Scum, well...you don't want to lose) if you're VT,

don't be afraid to stick your neck out.

You may get lynched, but since bandwagon analysis is a BIG part of this game...

BKWM: Your argument is something of a logical fallacy why I could be scum, but it's RVS anyway. Also, if there's a 2/9 chance of being scum, there's a 7/9 chance of being Town, with at least a 1/9 of being a town PR in a 2x4.

Out of the things I've pointed out---the inclination towards self presevation is the MOST scummy, so I will:

Unvote.

Vote: Theam

[Ghostlin]

Unvote.

Vote: Theam

theam?

unvote.
vote: ConSpiracy

lets start the L-2

I truncated your name. The majority of mafia games, if you can make it clear who your are voting for, abbrevations are fine (mostly beause there are people with longer handles that most of the people in this game out there).

[Ghostlin]

@BKWM
You do know that by stating your plan out loud, you ruined its effectiveness.

Also:

Unvote

.

I don't think it will, because the scum know that I am town, therefore, they know that I am trying to find them. They also know that the only way for me to do that is to make them slip up by getting under their skin, or by seeing it when someone else makes them slip up. So I didn't reveal that I was doing anything other than the standard aggressive townie play, (which I have already admitted to doing) which is to say, attempting to get under the scum's skin by being aggressive towards everyone, and thus being aggressive towards the scum. And even though they now know that I am going to come after them, they still have to hold their shit together when I do.

@AeRyung: First, I did not lose my composure, I simply addressed your concerns. Second, I revealed the part of my "plan" that was (in my mind) obvious, and the part where I did not think secrecy was necessary. (Really hope I'm not wrong there). Third, uh, yeah it was provocation.

@theamatuer: You want my defense, do you have any questions for me?

Meh. Since they know now you're trying to get a reaction out of them, there's less of a chance you'll get one. I think that's what Ibarra's getting at. My suggestion: while what you're doing is good and pressure in hopes your opponent will crack is excellent--build cases that town can build on.

TM: Do you see anything scummy at all about any of the discussions in the game? What do you find scummy about BK?

AeR: Why haven't you upgraded your FoS on BK to a full vote yet.

Soulblade: Who do you think is scum?

[Ghostlin]

@Soulblade:

if you want to look for people trying too hard to blend in, I would suggest people such as yourself or Morthas or paradox, who haven't posted enough for any sort of even semi-effective analysis.

Although I will grant that it is too early in the game for that to be an effective argument, and that you have been posting, and that they have legitimate reasons for not posting. I am very actively scum-hunting, although granted, I am not too terribly good at it. Yet. That's what practice is for.

@theamatuer: you are at L-2 as well, good sir. So here is my opinion on you in hopes of hearing a satisfactory defense out of you: You seem to want to be dodging suspicion by pointing the finger at everyone else, and by attempting to get bandwagons going on everyone else, while at the same time, you are at L-2, and have not done

anything

other than barely acknowledge that you were voted for at all. If you weren't already at L-2, I would vote for you. As is,

IGMEOY, theamatuer

.

@AeRyung: I would side with Ghostlin in that you were being silly in not actually voting for me, but now I'm at L-2 anyway, so I would appreciate it if right now you used your vote elsewhere, so that we are ensured a full and in depth discussion on Day 1.

@Morthas&paradox: thoughts? even if you have no suspicions, you're opinions can only help us find the scum. when you get the time, paradox, no pressure. Enjoy your family time.

*cough* CONspiracy/Ibarra *cough* In fact, more people need to contribute in general; those of who ARE contributing are trying to scumhunt, for the most part.

If it was later in the day, would you freely use your vote to put TM at L-1?

actually, I may have counted the votes wrong somehow. According to DarthYoshi, were both at L-3.
Also, if you want my defense, you should post out my flaws first

Are you saying "What is your case so I can defend myself?"

BKWM is accusing you of trying to start and maintain different bandwagons in attempt to preserve yourself. (This is from my understanding of #80.) I'm accusing you of using the 'I don't want to be lynched Day 1' as an excuse to preserve yourself. We're both pointing out that this isn't town behavior--although BKWM, considering the bolded, is this in fact the pot calling the kettle black?

FoS: BKWM

[Ghostlin]

CS's spoiler about self hammering is accurate and a must read. The TL;DR version is something like if you're scum, know what you're doing--if you're town, don't do it at all.

In order my scum/town continnum looks like this:
TM--BKWM--AeR (The not voting sounds really non commital, frankly)---REST OF TOWN

CS and SB have been reading MORE town, but I'll be able to nail that down better later.

[Ghostlin]

EBWOP: These people lean more towards the scummy side in the nulls automatically:

Not Voting (3): paradox, AeRyung, Ibarra

.

Ibarra's replacement did vote at least.

[Ghostlin]

unvote

vote: theamatuer

<.<>.>
.................................................what?

Congrats on your scum claim. Let me know how that works out for you.

[Ghostlin]

A thing to remember, folks is we're on Page 5 of Day 1--Day 2 will not start well with as little information we have. Please, even though it may be tempting to vote BK or TM at this point and lynch, we don't have enough future information for tomorrow and following Days.

[Ghostlin]

hes a l-1. I strongly recommend someone unvote, unless you really want to secure a lynch on page 5...

you find not voting scummy, Ghostlin? When scum finds that out, they can easily counter it, so its not a very good scum-hunting technique... see:Aeryu

;D @morthas.

I find it scummy that she held off until she did. It's like going "I think this person is scum but..." if you've got a scum suspect, you should be voting for them. If you don't, you're either obvactivelurking, about to be replaced, or have no opinion, none of which helps town at all.

[Ghostlin]

A thing to remember, folks is we're on Page 5 of Day 1--Day 2 will not start well with as little information we have. Please, even though it may be tempting to vote BK or TM at this point and lynch, we don't have enough future information for tomorrow and following Days.

This reads as if you know both of them will flip town so town needs more information.

No--actually the point I'm getting at is if we don't have the information on who TM's partner is, it won't help to lynch him even though in my book self vote=scum. Am I 100% sure? No, but really, the self vote really has no town based rationale besides idiocy, and I'd rather assume everyone's competent to have read your wall o'text that explains why you don't do that.

Thats not what he meant. What he meant was; we shouldn't end the day (kill somebody, get to majority etc) so early on. Votes are fine, as long as no one dies!

I have to disagree with you ConSpir, shes not using it as a defense, she merely is just confused, no need to get angry.

Not liking ghostlin atm, he doesn't seem to have the town's interest in heart. And seems to me like scumIC.

UNVOTE: VOTE: ghosty

...So you disagree and think we should end the day now? Exactly which part of this is not looking out for town's self interests?

[Ghostlin]

Scum-team is Ghostlin/Soul Blade, calling it now for brownie points later on.

Seriously, doesn't anyone find it suspicious that Ghostlin hasn't done anything useful all game? He's misinterpreted a few posts, something townies don't need to do. And posted some game mechanic fluff, hes like the epitome of scum-IC. All of his posts are just...awkward as well, theres no way this guy is town.

At this point; I think theamateur is just misunderstanding, he reads as genuine. Conspiracy is also likely-town.

The reasons I'm voting Theam at the moment.

1) The guy began the day essentally 'please don't lynch me day 1'.
2) He's jammering about connections that don't make sense. (#152 is a good example--also, guys, calling scumteams is a waste of time at this stage of the game.)
3) He self voted, which is about as far from pro-town as one gets. He did this after at least two posts telling him to never, ever do this as town.
4) He voted someone solely to reapply pressure to L-2.

So I have to ask...how is he genuine?

Also, what's your case on ME? How I am NOT acting in town's best interests? You called it on a post when you pointed out something I acutally did that was helpful. so context would be nice.

[Ghostlin]

Since when does having genuine intentions, mean being right? He's a newbie, and hes just misinformed. How is he supposed to know that "self voting is about as far from pro-town as one can get"? You're clearing going for an easy lynch.

There's a definitive difference in when you talk about the game theory, to when you are speaking about this game. Pretty much all of your post's are fluff, or tunneling on Theamateur, how is that pro-town, exactly? (the game mechanic stuff is tho)

Since there's a post by myself and one of the SEs about this entire topic? I mean it's not like anyone didn't warn him self voting was a bad idea.

Bluntly, your entire reasoning is based on the feeling that

you

feel he's town, (there's at least three or four people that disagree with you) even in the face of other proof that he's not. If we seriously,

entirely

base all scummy behavior on 's/he's just new' we'd only lynch ICs and SEs and scum would win these games more often than not.

Also, explain to me the idea of voting someone to L-2 in the same post they accuse another person is 'genuine.'

It's even more scummy than not voting for someone you suspect. (AeR did this, and yes, I called her on it.)

[Ghostlin]

If we seriously,

entirely

base all scummy behavior on 's/he's just new' we'd only lynch ICs and SEs and scum would win these games more often than not.

In this part it just seems for me like a desperate attempt to convince hiplop to push for amateur's lynch.
You obviously know that you can always try and distinguish between scum-newb and scum-town.
I don't think you'd have said that (especially as an IC) if you had town motivation for pushing for Amateur's lynch.

No, this is me pointing out crap logic. I do not think ignoring IC/SE advice and doing the opposite (delibrately doing something scummy) is protown. I do not think any attitude that involves self preservationary thinking is protown. I do not think voting someone else than what you accused is protown.

I don't think there's anything "genuine" about anything said. I do not like the excuse for scummy behavior being 'he's just new, this is newbtown.' None of the above matches any experience I have for newbtown.

AeR:

I don't think with a week in, we should lynch anyone.

Honestly: scum tend towards certain behaviors and motivations that town does not. When I scum hunt, I tend to go 'is this behavior protown (or likely meant with protown intentions)?' Self voting isn't. Going roughly 'please don't lynch me' at the beginning of the game when you should be latching on to things to start the scum hunt is not protown.

[Ghostlin]

Cool. You talk, but your actions aren't speaking what you say. Your town game theory talk, doesn't match up with your behavior.

How? You've posted little vignettes about this the entire game, but you've not backed up any of your talk.

[Ghostlin]

if SoulBlade is likely-scum, then shouldn't we lynch him instead?

SoulBlade and Ghostlin = scumteam, ghostlin im just more sure of/theres more evidence towards, ergo we're killing ghosty

What's the connection between me and SoulBlade? Because frankly, if I was scum, and you can take this one to the bank, if there was any chance that diverting to my partner would assure my success, I'd be doing it hardcore. Scum!Ghostlin isn't afraid of doing that for easy towncred.

Right now, there's really not much point in me voting SoulBlade (mostly because I don't find him scum). Call that buddying, but frankly, I think TM, BK (or BK's replacement, just because BK got replaced with a better player doesn't mean we should let stuff go), or AeR are likely candidates. Hiplop is probably town---convulted town, but town. Yes, that does mean I think at least one person on my wagon is likely to be scum.

Funfact: Mothas's last post accusing me, Soulblade and CS of all being scum cannot possibly be true. (Also, if SB is likely scum for not posting, what about paradox?)

Paradox: Seriously, dude. Who do you think is scum?

Stels: Your last post was about how you didn't like my ISO and the fact that I've ridden TM for self-voting (that's not all I've accused him of by any means), yet your vote is there. Do you think TM is more or less likely to be scum than me, and why?

[Ghostlin]

I doubt hes claiming VT, he'll claim cop or Doc. Pretty much sure that hes scum

Jailkeeper, actually, is the PM I got. Then again, I bluntly think you know I got a PR.

What you do next theory wise is up to you: I generally hammer Cop claims Day 1 mostly because scum hide behind them and Doctors I generally leave alive.

To answer the question about me asking questions, I was gathering information without being totally overt about it; trying to figure out who to protect/block and I was going to lean towards the scum part of the list mostly because shutting off other useful town abilities would be pointless. (Plus, if I somehow used the ability on the same person twice after getting a no kill and got a no kill both times, odds are good the person I was blocking would be scum).

About my reads:

TM has spent most of the day either trying to make sure he didn't get lynched (Post #28). He then said he thought he'd be suspect due to rage posting a lot (Post #42)--which still sticks out to me because he hasn't been rage posting at all. Then he made another concern about being lynched Day 1 again (Post #53); his votes earlier in the day don't follow a town suspicion pattern, mostly used to wagon, but they lose points because they're obviously pressure votes (Post #66, Post #69). If you want something that's really odd, he essentially contradicts himself in what he says in one post by not self voting (Post #93) and then self votes himself (Post #118). He also has waffled on my defense, claiming that I'm town, but all of a sudden reverses when I'm scum (about the same time my wagon became popular, he was tunnelling Soulblade continuously before this point). Post #281 is hilarious in retrospect---you could use the same things to describe himself, really. As for my 2/9 of being scum, at least 1/9 of being a PR, and 7/9 of being town....um, that's true of everyone, so I don't see how that's much of a case. (This was my actual point when I originally made that post: to SB, I believe.)

Honestly, I dislike hiplop less and less because of none of the actual proof of anything he's felt (he's claimed TM's "sincere" when bluntly some of his play contradicted itself a lot) and frankly? I've played a lot of games with a lot of VIs, new ones DO NOT TEND to vote themselves as obvtown. The fact that hiplop has blithely ignored this lends more credence to the fact that I feel he's buddying TM--I do not usually do this, but if I were to pick a scum team: it'd be hiplop-TM. By the way, kids, he's called his scum team early on and hasn't deviated from it at all--he's not really scumhunting, he's trying to string up whomever he can find to ride to lynch at the moment.

(Also, if you read parts of the ISO, TM and hiplop read like this:

TM: You hate SB? I hate SB! Let's string up SB!
hiplop: Let's kill Ghosty first due to scum ICness. I'm so sure he's scum. However, SB's his scum buddy so he should die too, not now, tho'.
TM: SB. SB. Let me give you my reads. OK, well, if I'm going to hang, let's go hang Ghostlin first.)

My alternate lynch would be AeR for waffling in the early game--had BK's replacement been worse, BK would of been in this slot.

Why am I giving you this information now? Because odds are about 50/50 you're going to lynch me and if I die, I want you to remember, read the points I've placed above and act on it.

Oh, and hiplop? I want your address after the game to collect on the whole 'Ghostlin is scum' bet. 'Cause you're wrong.

[Ghostlin]

EBWOP: A few things: SB I don't find to be scum because none of his play screams scum play and PoE: if even two of hiplop, TM, and AeR are scum, SB cannot be scum. He read a null to me.

AeR does also seem scummy for her pretty much aping the current wagon (mine), and hiplop's reads closely--it's even possible that only one of the three is scum, and is using and agreeing with the suspicions of the other two to setup mislynches--but I promise you scum is on my wagon. (Or that for example, if hiplop is scum but tm is not, hiplop is agreeing with tm's reads to create a possible mislynch later--or vice versa.)

I would ask one more thing as the IC--let the replacement (hey, replacement!) read through the thread and post before casting any hammers--there may be something I'm missing.

[Ghostlin]

@Johhog, if you can, can you go into detail why you don't believe his claim?

Because it was so obvious he would claim a PR when cornered. Sure, he can be a PR, but it's a low risk that's the case. Remember, scum always claim a PR if they are forced to claim.

You do realize that that is WIFOM, right? Not that I don't expect to be lynched with that claim, but honestly--if I do have the PR and claim VT to save my own skin, you guys won't believe me at all later when I claim the PR. Also, if I was scum, I only have what totals to be a 1 in 3 chance of choosing a PR not taken by anyone in this game. (2 out of 3 if there are 2 PRs.)

Part of the claim phase is this is where some would counterclaim me to maximize the chances that one of us would be lying if I was scum with a PR that no one has.

I don't expect the counterclaim, bluntly. I have the role. If someone counterclaims, you are to lynch me, then them with fire.

[Ghostlin]

Wow. I don't believe that JK claim at all. Seems like scum who desperately want to survive.

We could always resort to outing our 'actual' PR. We get 1 scum and lose 1 town; we clear Ghostlin; or hope luck is on our side. Either way, we have one claimed PR of possible 2.
I don't want to resort to the 'other' PR claiming, unless our situation is really hopeless, if we even have one. So, I am hesitant to disbelieve his claim at the moment.

Don't do this. Massclaim would just telling scum where to place their shots. Wait until either Day 3 or Day 4 when you are in Lylo, so you can examine the claims in isolation.

[Ghostlin]

@Ghostlin, why is that the only ones you suspect are the ones voting for you? Seems kinda weird.

@Morthas, who do you think is scum?

Weird, maybe--but it's also weird to have two folks so closely parrot reads. TM and hiplop have had similar reads from the moment hiplop replaced in. I've seen people all agree on one thing before as town in a newbie game, all replacements--and one of them was scum, so even scum agreeing with townies has happened for easy cred.

Honestly, I'm going to say it bluntly--odds are very good there's a scumbag on my wagon. VCA will help you on future days somewhat with that.

When I flip town, I find the odds are good that hiplop will flip scum, to answer the other question posted--I'd be hugging 70% chance that one of TM and hiplop is scum.

[Ghostlin]

The thing is, we can't look at your claim Ghostlin, because we know scum would claim a PR. Instead we have to look if you've been scummy or townish this game. Personally I have a null-scum.

Fact is, you can't look at my claim at all due to the fact that an astounding amount of claims D1 should be lynched, even VT claims for purposes of confirmation.

Enough about theory. If I'm null-scum, who is scum scum?

[Ghostlin]

Ghostlin; Do you HONESTLY think my play is scum motivated? If so, why? I really don't see it.

Also, I might have to agree on AeRyu and TheAm, I think if you ISO me, you'll see I've been keeping my eyes on TheAm the whole time (usually asking him questions to make sure hes thinking for himself).

Ultimately I still support your lynch, and I'll take the responsibility if you do flip town. I just can't see myself being wrong at this point...

Yes.

*#130 says I'm Scum IC. This is a benchmark post--you know, the kind you include with a case--and you just kinda wave off my play as 'not town motivated.' You've yet to acutally cite WHY my play isn't town motivated besides IC fluff--when I've acutally posted reasoning why. You and I have accused each of this all game, and occassionally you'll post a one-liner that I ask you to substainate that you don't, really.

*I dislike your continuing defense of TM. Frankly, it goes beyond self voting at this point, regardless of TM posting the reasons why you should not self-vote as a modkillable offense,

he turned around and did it anyway

. There's really no reason to do this, it hurts town win conditions, he was aware of it and he did anyhow. Frankly, if an SE or IC had done it, you'd lynch that with fire--I feel the only way a new player knows what's expected of them is to hold them to the same standard. You aren't. I'm not accusing you of not doing your duty, I'm accusing you more of why are you letting that slip--particulary since you called him 'genuine' in a post.

In fact you just lampshaded this in your last post (#315):

WIFOM. I've seen tons of newbs do that..

I have to give someone heck for it in just about every game I play.

Not liking how hes still clinging to that.

Also, as for making the reasoning his own, it isn't. Let me reference two posts:

quote="hiplop"]Scum-team is Ghostlin/Soul Blade, calling it now for brownie points later on.

Seriously, doesn't anyone find it suspicious that Ghostlin hasn't done anything useful all game? He's misinterpreted a few posts, something townies don't need to do. And posted some game mechanic fluff, hes like the epitome of scum-IC

. All of his posts are just...awkward as well, theres no way this guy is town.

At this point; I think theamateur is just misunderstanding, he reads as genuine. Conspiracy is also likely-town.[/quote]

Well, it's pretty obvious that he's not a Vanilla townie.

he's acting like an IC, but in reality he's posted minimal content.
He essentially follows others when posting his ideas, and such tries to keep as low of a profile as possible.

when attacked, he counterattacks, but rarely substanciates.
So he's either scum, or PR. Based on probably, with figures from his own post.

there's a 2/9 chance of being scum, there's a 7/9 chance of being Town, with at least a 1/9 of being a town PR in a 2x4.

scum is highest, PR has the proability increased a little based on how he tries to hide, and Townie exists since we could be wrong, and it might just be how he plays.

Which of the bolded ideas is EXACTLY like the other?

[Ghostlin]

Weird, maybe--but it's also weird to have two folks so closely parrot reads. TM and hiplop have had similar reads from the moment hiplop replaced in. I've seen people all agree on one thing before as town in a newbie game, all replacements--and one of them was scum, so even scum agreeing with townies has happened for easy cred.

Honestly, I'm going to say it bluntly--odds are very good there's a scumbag on my wagon. VCA will help you on future days somewhat with that.

When I flip town, I find the odds are good that hiplop will flip scum, to answer the other question posted--I'd be hugging 70% chance that

one of

TM and hiplop is scum.

I think he already said who he thinks is who.

Yeah, but he only said one of either me or hiplop is scum. I want to know who he thinks #2 is

That's my way of saying if not

both

of you are scum (which if you take raw statistics, is low, I admit), odds are very likely one of you is. (By play alone.) This should surprise no one who's read this thread because I think you're both scum.

TM: Yeah, you've not said anything that's really changed my mind here--if anything 'not everything is scummy' seems like that you know full well that I'm town and telling the truth, and in context that you know full well you've done scummy things.

There are players who are reading extremely town to me. There are players that are reading pretty darn scummy to me. You are in the second camp. Bluntly, I shake my head at the players who think you're a VI, because you've stopped just shy of claiming that yourself. Also, scum VI's do exist.

I've parroted my reads over the last three posts. I've told you what I've found scummy. Everyone else is at least null/town.

[Ghostlin]

In fact, lemme quote this to you:

About my reads:

TM

has spent most of the day either trying to make sure he didn't get lynched (Post #28). He then said he thought he'd be suspect due to rage posting a lot (Post #42)--which still sticks out to me because he hasn't been rage posting at all. Then he made another concern about being lynched Day 1 again (Post #53); his votes earlier in the day don't follow a town suspicion pattern, mostly used to wagon, but they lose points because they're obviously pressure votes (Post #66, Post #69). If you want something that's really odd, he essentially contradicts himself in what he says in one post by not self voting (Post #93) and then self votes himself (Post #118). He also has waffled on my defense, claiming that I'm town, but all of a sudden reverses when I'm scum (about the same time my wagon became popular, he was tunnelling Soulblade continuously before this point). Post #281 is hilarious in retrospect---you could use the same things to describe himself, really. As for my 2/9 of being scum, at least 1/9 of being a PR, and 7/9 of being town....um, that's true of everyone, so I don't see how that's much of a case. (This was my actual point when I originally made that post: to SB, I believe.)

Honestly, I dislike

hiplop

less and less because of none of the actual proof of anything he's felt (he's claimed TM's "sincere" when bluntly some of his play contradicted itself a lot) and frankly? I've played a lot of games with a lot of VIs, new ones DO NOT TEND to vote themselves as obvtown. The fact that hiplop has blithely ignored this lends more credence to the fact that I feel he's buddying TM--I do not usually do this, but if I were to pick a scum team: it'd be hiplop-TM. By the way, kids, he's called his scum team early on and hasn't deviated from it at all--he's not really scumhunting, he's trying to string up whomever he can find to ride to lynch at the moment.

(Also, if you read parts of the ISO, TM and hiplop read like this:

TM: You hate SB? I hate SB! Let's string up SB!
hiplop: Let's kill Ghosty first due to scum ICness. I'm so sure he's scum. However, SB's his scum buddy so he should die too, not now, tho'.
TM: SB. SB. Let me give you my reads. OK, well, if I'm going to hang, let's go hang Ghostlin first.)

My alternate lynch would be

AeR

for waffling in the early game--had BK's replacement been worse,

BK

would of been in this slot.

Why am I giving you this information now? Because odds are about 50/50 you're going to lynch me and if I die, I want you to remember, read the points I've placed above and act on it.

Oh, and hiplop? I want your address after the game to collect on the whole 'Ghostlin is scum' bet. 'Cause you're wrong.

Scum: TM, hiplop, AeR, BKWM (leaning null due to replacement play)

Town/Null: Everyone else. No, I'm actually NOT going to rank these. I'm not going to make a 'who the IC finds helpful list'.

[Ghostlin]

No, all your last three posts say is that Team or I is scum, you haven't said why, other than I've been targeting you. That's some lazy scum play, Ghosty. You haven't said who you think is scum if I flip town, or even ranked your reads. Ever thought of the possibility that I'm just wrong?

WIFOM aside, but do you really think I'd be so gutsy in my play?

Can you explain your reads then? Because I look at your scumreads, and I see your wagon, and then stels who clearly said she has no problem with your death...

Did you not read my last post where I requoted my ending reads?

You've been on my case since the second post you replaced in, where you essentially made fun of my read of AeR for not voting (when she had suspicions of another player) and said scum would adjust to that.

You talk about tunneling, but you've been trying to argue and build a case around me since the second or third post you've made this game. Over something that wasn't scummy. And you've made the argument I'm the lazy scum.

Bluntly, I consider the last piece of evidence you cite here about Stels being OK with lynching me to be rather unsubstantiated because she's also said she's not going to lynch me until close to deadline. Really, she's got two choices here in this current game state unless some of you that are firmly in the 'TM is a VI' camp surprise the hell out of me:

1) Keep her vote on TM and no lynch.
2) Lynch a player she doesn't know is town. The only player Stels knows is town is her.

Also, the bolded is WIFOM: and Yes, I do believe scum would be that bold.

[Ghostlin]

EBWOP: And before you ask: Have you seriously voted/hammered a person you thought was Town Day 1 because of a mislynch? Yes, Yes I have.

[Ghostlin]

EBWOP x2: mislynch=no lynch

[Ghostlin]

I already replied to that post. Nice try.

I've seen town self vote all the time. I've never seen scum self-vote, no this doesn't mean its a town tell, but its not a scumtell either. Its one of those lame-by-the-book scumtells that scum use, but never actually do. Llama posted something rpetty good, called "the scumtells that scum never does", and thats the case here.

I used the word WIFOM son, calling it out for WIFOM is pretty useless, and showing your strawgrasping.

I'm tunneling, and I admit it. I believe I've found scum. Why would I deviate from that?

I've been playing close attention to every player, and you can't deny that. (asking q's, talking to them etc) I'm only tunneling with my votes..

Funny. That's

not

what your ISO says. (I'm not going to quote the whole thing, but all of two posts don't really have anything to do with anything except accusing me, tunneling me, etc) So...either you're doing this somewhere in your head, or you're lying directly to the town.

Oh, and I've been meaning to ask...what about BK did you find scummy in your first ISO'ed post that wasn't so scummy that you shifted to me in your second ISOed post?

[Ghostlin]

EBWOP: OK, if I count --fluff-- like this, maybe it's true:

I apoligize Stels! Than we're in great shape =]

I don't have much more to say... Good night everyone (:

Hey, sorry Stels! I guess we're 5 SEs in this game and... there are 2 ICs?

no. Each game has one IC. Starts with 2 SE's, but more can replace in. SE's can be someone who has played like 500 games, or 3. IC is just a chosen player to teach the game.

Not that I mind you doing the IC work, but if I'm being accused of just posting IC stuff as fluff and tunneling Thaum, then you should be held to the exact same standard.

[Ghostlin]

I think he was replaced in at middle of day 1 and then lynched on day 3 in game 558. heres the link https://www.mafiascum.net/archive/viewt ... =11&t=7433

I didn't even remember this game, and it was over two years ago. Nice catch. By the way, my first post is somewhat inconsistent, considering I copied it verbatim from my first IC gig (which I had only been scum in one game I remembered, Fringe Mafia.).

[Ghostlin]

Neither am I.

The thing is, I said what I was going to do if he flips town or if he flips scum, but you didn't. To me it looks like it's

you

who is sure of his alignment.

Hiplop thinks I'm scum...so are you saying he's bussing me because he knows I'm scum? Or, are you saying that he knows I'm town and trying to lynch me?

Also, what do you mean by #434 and #436?

By the way 'Ghostlin wouldn't be acting this scummy if he was town,' is A, WIFOM, and B, not how I play PRs. I try to keep my head down and non-committal as a PR, particularly a cop PR.

Here. If you want to get a bead on how I act as a PR, these are the games to read:

Cop: 1085: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=17140
1072: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=16743

Doctor: 1046: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=15970