Newbie 1138 - Game Over! Town Win!

[I Am Innocent]

vote honest abel

For not wanting to be my scum teammate.

[I Am Innocent]

Alright, I'm just gonna get some questions out just so we can get to know each other a bit.
1. How many games have you played at MafiaScum?
2. Have you played anywhere else prior to MafiaScum?
3. Do you believe in magic?
4. Know any of the other players in the game from prior games?

You don't have to answer if you don't want to, just want to get some discussion going.

1) This is my 16th game on this site
2) Yes, played a handful or so there as well.
3) Not sure if magic is the right word, but I do believe in miracles!
4) I do not think I have played with anyone before.

Also, trust the dice roller.

VOTE: Scumhunter

Why the "truly random" vote?

We would have been a hell of a team, one of us honest and the other innocent. It's a shame!

lol, hadn't thought of it that way.

Let's skip the stupid discussion about how odds are slim I was chosen to be mafia on both rolls, shall we?

Interesting you would 1) be the one to bring this up when you say you don't want this discussed and 2) phrase it the way you do "how odds are slim"

Whoever posts underneath me is going to get my vote....

Another instance of a player avoiding to determine his own choice of a vote on another player. Add in the fact that if nobody posts, the game does not progress, so why threaten the next poster?

[I Am Innocent]

Cause I don't think we can scumhunt off of an introductory post. Do you?

RVS is about generating discussion. And when you get really lucky, you sometimes get a scumslip reaction to a few random votes.

I personally see "random" votes as you and cavjj did as ways to avoid causing conflicts with another poster. Could it be scum trying to step on as few a toes as possible. Maybe. It's noted anyway.

Let's skip the stupid discussion about how odds are slim I was chosen to be mafia on both rolls, shall we?

the odds are exactly the same each time, slim though they may be.

QFT (Quoted for truth)

Not really. It was the most pure random vote I could think of. What is the likelihood of

no-one

posting? Game ends just because I put that? Slightly melodramatic methinks.

Like BBmolla, you took the vote out of your hands and put it in someone else's.

As for the way you did it, I've seen players say, the last player to post in the thread or the last player to RVS vote gets my vote. For some reason that feels more protown than what you did.

Let's get to something a little meatier. If you were mafia and this game had actually had a Night start, who would you have killed and why?

Most likely the IC. If it was an SE or another strong player that knew me and my playing style from the past, probably them instead.

[I Am Innocent]

Like Whilst Post 25

+1 for him.

Interesting you would 1) be the one to bring this up when you say you don't want this discussed and 2) phrase it the way you do "how odds are slim"

By 'interesting' do you mean suspicious?

I found it a tad suspicious.

Why would a townie feel threatened by a random vote?

The easier question would be switching the word "would" out for "should." Personally nobody, scum or town, should feel threatened by a random vote. But it happens...I have seen it happen. My last scum game for example my partner got all flustered when he received 3 RVS votes.

@Everyone- Did you want to be mafia or town this game? Which allignment would you have liked to receive the most?

I find being town more challenging and prefer that alignment over mafia.

i have a couple questions. townies, what's your strategy? mafiosos, what is yours?

My strategy is to make people take stances. I'll be pushing people to identify who they suspect and what not. That and analyzing vote histories are two of the bigger parts of my scumhunting game.

***********

Gotta get ready for work now...will catch up on the rest later.

[I Am Innocent]

In every game I've played (whatever alignment I may be), I've always decided the best action on Day 1 is to

not

vote "No Lynch" -- ending a day prematurely is horrible: If you're mafia, you miss out on chances to make other people look like scum. If you're a townie, you miss out on chances to draw out the scum. Regardless, I also will not lynch another player, unless he or she is obviously mafia. I think you'd agree that it's difficult to have an accurate mafia lynch.

No lynching benefits scum, because then all the killing is done via Night by the mafia. And the only way we will ever be 100% sure someone is mafia is via a cop (and a cop only shows up in 1/2 the scenarios).

Here is a post from a town IC in a previous game. Please note that this was the old F11(?) setup, so no jailkeepers in this game:

2.) What is preferable on Day One of a Newbie Game? A lynch on a townsperson, or a No Lynch?

The reason I asked this question was because I find the implications of this so important that I think all players should be aware of the answer. Although it may seem counter-intuitive, the correct answer to this question is: a lynch on a townsperson is better. This has everything to do with the number of players in the game.

With nine players in the game, if we take the default assumption that there is a nightkill every night, the Town can get a maximum of four lynches over the course of the game:

9 players: Lynch #1, nightkill
7 players: Lynch #2, nightkill
5 players: Lynch #3, nightkill
3 players: Lynch #4

Suppose instead that we No Lynched on Day One (or any other Day), but there was still a nightkill every night. Suddenly, the Town gets only three maximum lynches over the course of the game:

9 players: No Lynch, nightkill
8 players: Lynch #1, nightkill
6 players: Lynch #2, nightkill
4 players: Lynch #3

Now, it is possible in this scenario for us to get our fourth lynch back if either (i) we have a Doctor who successfully protects against a kill while not being role-blocked, or (ii) if the Mafia fail to send in their kill in time or purposefully No Kill. In my opinion, however, Towns should not gamble in the hopes of being so fortunate.

In a Newbie Game, the town’s only mechanism for winning is to lynch. The more lynches we get, the higher our chances of winning. I make this point for the following reason: if this game gets to a point where we are getting close to deadline, please know that we are better off with a lynch than without a lynch. Even if you think a player is probably Town, it may be tactical to vote for them simply to assure there is a lynch: after all, you may be wrong.

If anybody does not understand this, please stop and closely read this section of my post a second time. If you still do not understand, please let us know, and I will either try to explain it again or refer you to an explanation written by another player. I want everybody understand this at the front-end of the game rather than having to frantically discuss this at deadline.

[I Am Innocent]

I am. I'm calling a BBmolla/cavjj scum team here.

Some slight concern on whilst for not voting/not taking a stance, and while I'm noting it here, I still read town in most of his other posts.

unvote: Honest Abel
vote: BBmolla

[I Am Innocent]

EBWOP - dicknose, any reason you have not voted yet either?

[I Am Innocent]

Home for my lunch.

Here are my thoughts regarding D1/N1/and what has been said so far D2:

D1, did not like:

...Honestly, I just want D1 to end and hopefully N1 will give us more info to work with. So I'll just join the wagon. Also, when people tend to see two players arguing, they often say "Nah. It's probably two townies gunning at each other". But I have seen cases in which it was proven false. While not too much of a solid reason, at least it still is a reason.

VOTE: BBmolla

Does not feel like you are convinced BBmolla is scum, more you just want the day over with.

Also, do not like this post (and followup post/hammer):

I can understand the want to end D1. I'm at L-1. Does anyone have any intent on hammering?

I am considering it to be fair, in my eyes, you are only probably third on my list of suspects, but N1 will give us lots more to think about and as I have previously said, I would rather risk losing a VT than letting a potential scum escape, even if it is D1 and we haven't got lots to go on.

"only probably third" on my list of suspects. But yet ready to hammer, and without a claim? Yet you think BBmolla is VT, can you explain why?

**********

N1, have no idea scumhunter was the choice. He came off as very null D1, so not sure what scum was thinking.

**********

D2

I'm also just going to point this out now since it's fairly obvious and it's bound to come out anyway. Let's compare both day 1 bandwagons:

Honest Abel (4):

I Am Innocent

,

Dark Claymore

,

BBmolla

,

cavjj

BBmolla (5):

Scumhunter

, Honest Abel,

I Am Innocent

,

Dark Claymore

,

cavjj

I think you are onto something (see above), but regarding me you do know my vote for you was an RVS vote that was the 1st of the game, right? As soon as I came in and saw others had taken you to L-1, I took my RVS vote off and put it on BBmolla, my #1 suspect. Quite different than the DC and cavjj.

Fair request. As soon as everyone posts their reactions to N1, I'll let you guys know how I feel on everyone.

reactions to N1?

*************

@Dicknose, Post 110 you list notes on 4 of the other 6 players. Do you have no notes for the other 2 then?

My Top 2
cavjj
DarkClaymore

[I Am Innocent]

I'm not so much concerned with how scummy your votes were, although your vote on BBmolla left a bad taste in my mouth.

Very interesting since you had a vote on BBmolla yourself and even asked the group "Is anyone else interested in having a go at BBmolla?" the post preceding my vote.

So what exactly "left a bad taste in [your] mouth"

The real funny part is that your buddy, DarkClaymore, gives you away both times by following your votes with bad reasoning.

So DarKClaymore gave me away, which means he must be scum moreso than me. Or in other words, my scumminess depends on him, right???

Yet you vote me first. Can you explain the thought process there?

I Am Innocent and DarkClaymore's pretended cluelessness about why Scumhunter was killed is laughable. Lesser reason: It makes cavjj look a little scummy. Greater reason:

Doc definitely wouldn't be protecting Scumhunter

. This happens in almost every mafia game I've seen. Nobody goes for the obvious kill on the first night because the potential doctor will protect the obvious kill. Also, nobody would be going after the IC after my question about N0, would they?

Re: Underlined, that could be said about many players. So why scumhunter amongst the other players not named wicked. I don't know why, he definitely was not the most townie of other players D1. That was my point.

Will finish catching up in a little bit.

[I Am Innocent]

Let's get this out of the way: If you were mafia, who would you have killed N1 and why?

The more I think about this line of questioning, the more I think it does more damage than good.

I want to hear if our IC agrees

, but here is one case in point:

Also, nobody would be going after the IC after my question about N0, would they?

Did this give free rein for the scum to take out anyone not named Wicked N1? Would it benefit the scum team greatly to put it in the head of any doc that they would be crazy not to protect the IC?

Also, for anyone not pretending day one's lynch was a good thing, who would you have preferred to lynch instead?

Knowing what I know now, cavjj.

Knowing what I knew then (as of page 4), BBmolla.

Knowing what I should have known after 10-15 pages of discussion D1, we'll never know cause it never happened...

I was already growing weary of I Am Innocent and DarkClaymore Day 1

Really, I saw no sign of this...can you please point to any of your posts that show this?

I saw you pushing BBmolla instead. If you were growing weary of us, why did you not unvote BBmolla? Your story is just not lining up correctly.

[I Am Innocent]

Re Post 163:

You say "The fact that you didn't have a go at BBmolla. You voted for him, you didn't pressure him or anything." Isn't voting for someone pressuring them?

You say "The fact that you used my scumhunting on him as an excuse to vote for him with no reason of your own." I had a reason. I had a whole slew of reasons. I just did not state them at the time. It was Page 4, I wanted to see how people, including BBmolla, reacted to my Top 2 scum list and my L-2 vote on BBmolla. I had no idea two people would jump on and end the day that quickly. I do not think I have ever seen a D1 that was 8 pages, let alone 4.

I will dig up something from an old game as meta for my D1 play. Hold on while I find it...

[I Am Innocent]

Here is a game where I was town and nailed scum on Page 3. Though I don't reveal who I think it was until later in the game:

....
I noticed that too: "It confuses the town less"

I've heard people ask other players a number of times to get an avatar cause it helps them track things better, but that was the first time I ever heard it said that it specifically helps town by doing it (or it confuses the town less).

Seemed like a stretch to try to group himself in as a townie.

unvote
vote: Spadille

FTR, Spadille is my #2 suspect currently. Someone else has also pinged my scumdarbut I'm going to keep that one on the down low and just watch that person a little while longer...

....
Voted the person that has not been voted yet. (Safe vote)
Voted the lurker. (Easy target for scum)

This was my first tip-off.

The fact he is laying low could have to do with his 3rd (and last post):
....
How ironic that he votes a lurker early on, yet who is lurking now?

My guess, Diddin or Spadille is his partner and the other wagon is Kiari, who he already has a vote on. My guess is he found it easier to play the "busy" persona and just leave his vote on the person opposite his teammate's wagon...

Usually don't do this, but going all in early on D1:

unvote
vote: DerbyBolts

Reason being, if Kiari gets lynched and flips town, I am a goner N1 for sure.

Vinegar, you scare me. You wreak of townie, but the lynch Kiari, if Kiari flips town then lynch Diddin D2 philosophy has caused many a town to lose games like that in the past. You start pushing that crap, you better be 99.9% sure that one of them is scum. I don't see it all with Kiari and only a fair amount with Diddin.

Like I said, Page 4/Post 91 is not usually when I go all in. In that particular game, everyone was going after VI kiari and I was trying to prevent a townie mislynch.

[I Am Innocent]

The "vote first and give reasons later" attitude seems useless.

If you say so. But on page 4 with 6 newbies in the game, it can be very beneficial/telling.

You're also defending yourself by saying you do what you're criticizing me of doing, which is suspecting someone without revealing your intentions right away. Seems like a conflict of interests there.

Difference, I stated my suspicions. I said who my top 2 was. And voted accordingly

You pushed BBmolla's lynch, and now are saying you suspected others (me and DarkClaymore) at the time instead. Yet you left your vote on BBmolla, never showed any inkling of your suspicion, and coincidentally D2 I am the one that pushed the BBmolla wagon??? I don't think so bub.

[I Am Innocent]

...I prefer long days so

I can contribute as much as possible knowing that every Day could be my last.

...

Interesting that is your playstyle, it is mine too, hence why I usually make known anything suspicious I find. Which is why I find it interesting with that mindset that you would think it was not important to express some/any concern for your suspicions of me and DC before D1 ended.

Instead, this was your 2nd to last post of D1 and last addressing a comment by me:

That's a good explanation to give to stubborn no-lynch advocates in addition to all the other benefits of lynching.

P.S. My vote stands. I'm convinced enough. Is anyone else interested in having a go at BBmolla? Anyone interested in critiquing my line of questioning/reasoning?

I can see how "That's a good explanation" can be confused with "I am becoming wary of you".

FOS Honest Abel

Top 3
cavjj
Honest Abel
Dark Claymore

[I Am Innocent]

I didn't push a lynch, I left my vote on BBmolla because I was in the middle of pressuring/pursuing him. Not once did I say "Let's lynch this guy."

Once again, a lie as shown below:

That's a good explanation to give to stubborn no-lynch advocates in addition to all the other benefits of lynching.

P.S. My vote stands. I'm convinced enough. Is anyone else interested in having a go at BBmolla? Anyone interested in critiquing my line of questioning/reasoning?

"I'm convinced enough" - Sounds like this was your number 1 suspect at the moment, not the 2 players D2 you claim you were wary of at this point...

"Is anyone else interested in having a go at BBmolla?" - I read that and still read that as you are pushing the BBmolla lynch. Especially following "I'm convinced enough"

It's not suspicious that I would make known my concerns before Day 1 ended when it ended far ahead of schedule. I didn't know it would end mere hours after I went to bed. Already explained this.

But you did not even hint that you had other suspicions. That combined with the quote above from you conflicts with everything you are saying D2 about me and DC. That is why I find you scummy.

Oh, and a great scumtell is trying to berate a town player/town player argument. See below for repeated underlined examples of that:

What you're saying to me

is not scumhunting or protown

.

Your responses are weak

attempts at counterattack. You are not advancing your case. You are repeating things and

attempting to twist them

a little more each time. This is scummy behavior.

It's not suspicious that I would make known my concerns before Day 1 ended when it ended far ahead of schedule. I didn't know it would end mere hours after I went to bed. Already explained this.

You and the explanation are completely different entities. It wasn't even your explanation. You quoted something someone else said. Which is scummy on its own because it's an attempt to make you look like your'e contributing something when really you're just quoting other games.

Again, FoSing me and trying to make me look scummy

with poor/twisted reasons

and selective quoting is just making you look worse. But please, don't stop just because I say so.

[I Am Innocent]

What is the reason that I'm your target other than the fact that I'm pointing out your scumminess? None that I can see. Your posts aren't protown. You are not scumhunting me. You're just trying to make me look bad so that you can look better. Pretty sure even newbs can see through that.

More scumtell examples of you berating me and my scumhunting abilities.

[I Am Innocent]

Here's a question: if you were scum, how confident would you feel right now?

I guess that question would depend on who my teammate was.

[I Am Innocent]

IAI - You seem to keep saying that you suspect me and you've not said why.

I reckon you're scum backtracking and trying to start a bandwagon due to my actions D1 in case I don't get lynched without your help....

Sure I have:

Home for my lunch.

Here are my thoughts regarding D1/N1/and what has been said so far D2:

D1, did not like:

...Honestly, I just want D1 to end and hopefully N1 will give us more info to work with. So I'll just join the wagon. Also, when people tend to see two players arguing, they often say "Nah. It's probably two townies gunning at each other". But I have seen cases in which it was proven false. While not too much of a solid reason, at least it still is a reason.

VOTE: BBmolla

Does not feel like you are convinced BBmolla is scum, more you just want the day over with.

Also, do not like this post (and followup post/hammer):

I can understand the want to end D1. I'm at L-1. Does anyone have any intent on hammering?

I am considering it to be fair, in my eyes, you are only probably third on my list of suspects, but N1 will give us lots more to think about and as I have previously said, I would rather risk losing a VT than letting a potential scum escape, even if it is D1 and we haven't got lots to go on.

"only probably third" on my list of suspects. But yet ready to hammer, and without a claim? Yet you think BBmolla is VT, can you explain why?

**********

N1, have no idea scumhunter was the choice. He came off as very null D1, so not sure what scum was thinking.

**********

D2

I'm also just going to point this out now since it's fairly obvious and it's bound to come out anyway. Let's compare both day 1 bandwagons:

Honest Abel (4):

I Am Innocent

,

Dark Claymore

,

BBmolla

,

cavjj

BBmolla (5):

Scumhunter

, Honest Abel,

I Am Innocent

,

Dark Claymore

,

cavjj

I think you are onto something (see above), but regarding me you do know my vote for you was an RVS vote that was the 1st of the game, right? As soon as I came in and saw others had taken you to L-1, I took my RVS vote off and put it on BBmolla, my #1 suspect. Quite different than the DC and cavjj.

Fair request. As soon as everyone posts their reactions to N1, I'll let you guys know how I feel on everyone.

reactions to N1?

*************

@Dicknose, Post 110 you list notes on 4 of the other 6 players. Do you have no notes for the other 2 then?

My Top 2
cavjj
DarkClaymore

[I Am Innocent]

I Am Innocent: thoughts on DarkClaymore ASAP.

Started the Day as my #2 suspect, currently #3 based on your acting more scummy.

[I Am Innocent]

I'd like everyone to list their top 2 suspects.

[I Am Innocent]

Sorry guys, been busy the last day+ and today looks just as busy. Will catch up and post my thoughts on all the players probably this weekend.

Did skim through and noticed alot of feelings being stirred up on our IC slot. Give NS some time, if he does flake we have until Aug 22nd to lynch somebody. A replacement would be brought in. In other words, let the mod handle those who are flaking, we do not need to do so. If he posts every 3rd day to avoid replacement...well that is an entirely different story.

One other thing I noticed in my skimming, Dicknose and DC's listing of townie to scum at first glance felt very sincere and how I'd imagine my list would look by D2/12 pages in. I'll discuss what I mean in more detail when I put together my list after fully catching up.

[I Am Innocent]

Sorry guys, been busy the last day+ and today looks just as busy. Will catch up and post my thoughts on all the players probably this weekend.

Did skim through and noticed alot of feelings being stirred up on our IC slot. Give NS some time, if he does flake we have until Aug 22nd to lynch somebody. A replacement would be brought in. In other words, let the mod handle those who are flaking, we do not need to do so. If he posts every 3rd day to avoid replacement...well that is an entirely different story.

One other thing I noticed in my skimming, Dicknose and DC's listing of townie to scum at first glance felt very sincere and how I'd imagine my list would look by D2/12 pages in. I'll discuss what I mean in more detail when I put together my list after fully catching up.

As I said in my last post, it has been crazy the last 2-3 days for me and I would be posting this weekend. I will hold true to that and try to get to it tonight.

I noticed in my skim through that I am at L-1. I would appreciate it if someone took a vote off of me in the meantime as we have already had one early hammer without a claim in this game, I don't think giving a 2nd a chance to happen is a smart thing to do.

[I Am Innocent]

I am here. I will try to get in as much as I can before my kids wake up.

[I Am Innocent]

D1 lasted 4 pages, less than 2 real life days. Nobody expected D1 to last so short other than cavjj, or if cavjj is scum and his scum partner told him to hammer first available chance, than that player as well.

I did not like BBmolla early on. I did not provide my case, but I have no problem putting out there what bothered me:

Post 6 he tries not to walking on anyones toes by making his RVS vote truly random "Also, trust the dice roller"

Post 36, he follows Scumhunters lead about hating RVS to unvote. Despite being one of the first people to RVS, he said " must admit, I'm not a fan of it. It's a tradition though, and I've found that fighting tradition can only end badly." Read the end of that like BBmolla was concerned what other people thought about his slot. Which is scummy behavior.

Post 40, he says he is not ready to vote Honest Abel "I haven't voted Abel because I want to take everyone into consideration before I vote to lynch somebody. Also, I've learned that first looks can be decieving, so I want it to go on a bit more and see his and everyone elses interactions with each other before I make a vote." but then in...

Post 44, just hours later, he pulls a 180. "VOTE: Honest Abel" Same post he starts targeting the 'lurkers', tho with me I see hints of some buddying. "I am Innocent - 2 posts I like you're second post, but show me some more good posts so I can develop a better read on you."

It may surprise Honest Abel and others, but D1 outside of his initial comment, I found him very townie and did not like the wagon on him. I was absent for much of that, hence I never got the chance to move my RVS vote. As soon as I saw what happened, I called the BBmolla/cavjj scumteam (Post 85).

I was obviously wrong about half of that, but the interesting thing is the other half was the hammer vote. Was scum cavjj trying to disprove some suspicion by proving what he knew was a town BBmolla? Definitely a possibility.

[I Am Innocent]

Whilst and Dicknose I have found to be the most townie of the bunch. Still, here are my notes on them:

Whilst

Post 50, not willing to step on toes/make a stance "Regardless, I also will not lynch another player, unless he or she is obviously mafia."

Post 76, worried what others think of him "If I'm trying to avoid attracting any attention, it's because I'm being a good townie." and again, unwilling to step on toes/make a stance "There isn't anything in anyone's argument that makes me want to cast my lynch vote."

Post 87, more of the same "I am just not comfortable with leaving my lynch vote on a player who I am not 85% convinced to be mafia aligned."

Overall though, D2 he has played townie, which makes me think D1 was more of an aberration or townie cautiousness. (The flip side being that he could have received some N1 coaching from a teammate, but the lack of anything really scummy D2 does not make me believe this is the case.)

Dicknose

D1 laid really low. After asking him why he has not voted as of Page 4, he pops right in and cast his vote in Post 88. Signs of active lurking.

D2 I have not been a fan of his tunneling of DC. As a fellow player who has fallen in the trap of being confident in his reads as a townie sometimes, I think it is more the latter (being confident) rather than picking on an easy target/avoiding stepping on other player's toes.

@Dicknose tho, one thing I notice D2 was that you cast 3 straight votes for DC. Can you explain why the redundancy?

**********

One other thing I noticed in my skimming, Dicknose and DC's listing of townie to scum at first glance felt very sincere and how I'd imagine my list would look by D2/12 pages in. I'll discuss what I mean in more detail when I put together my list after fully catching up.

Read closer, our lists are nothing alike.

What I meant by sincere was the absence of "likely townies" at that stage in the game. Though I felt good about you and whilst, I'd still say would have put you two as null reads on page 11. On the other hand, Honest Abel had two "town" players already. I did not see where his confidence came from in that regards, hence my concern for him possibly buddying to you and whilst.

[I Am Innocent]

The last four players, and some brief notes on what I have so far:

1) Honest Abel and Nobody Special/Wicked - Honest Abel pushed D1 hard on what was the optimal strategy N1 for scum. It put in a lot of people's heads that the IC was in danger. This could be just scum trying to get a free shot at 5 other players N1 (assuming IC is town and town is mislynched), or it could have been a more longer term reason to show why a scum IC continues to last Night after Night. Along with that, an SE died, and now he is pushing for the other SE to go. (not to push appeal to fear, but) A player with an 8-3 town record, and one that is undefeated in LyLo. Not a bad person to get out of the way D2 if your scum, huh?

2) DC and cavjj - The play D1 was atrocious. We literally played less than 2 real life days out of 21 possible. There were two players jumping around on the two easiest wagons. I'll be shocked if neither is scum. But the coaching that goes on N0 would have certainly included the "not drawing attention" to oneself, unless there was not an experienced player to give said coaching. Which would be the case if these two were scum.

3) Honest Abel & cavjj - Ah, here is the winner. Honest Abel has turned all attention away from cavjj, onto DC and me. This scum team lines up nicely with the evidence from the two scenarios above, 1) Honest Abel pushing protection on the IC giving free shots to the scum team, 2) cavjj having a newbie teammate who did not proper advice N0 on how to play D1.

cavjj has been all defense D2. It looks like he was coached N1. And who was it that made the first post D2, which coincidentally invited cavjj to release said defense:

So cavjj, why did you hammer? Remember when I said people should be sharing their thoughts on all other players before the day ends because it's very useful later? Did you not want anyone to do that? You ended the Day very abruptly, and did not give a fair warning of your intent to hammer. Explain your big rush to lynch BBmolla

.

It's also fitting that Scumhunter was killed overnight considering his most substantial post was about how silly it is to bring people to L-1 so early in the Day, and he warned of people using any dumb excuse to hammer and end the day prematurely. This was about the L-1 on me, but it applies just as much to the BBmolla case:

There is absolutely no reason for anyone to be at L-1 this early. There are other ways to pressure people. One of these days I'm going to be scum have a cop-read on someone who is at L-1 and hammer away to waste a ML and kill a pr d1. I mean do the people voting Abel "actually" want a lynch to go through right now? No. Of course you don't. So why are you voting him to L-1? It's obviously for "pressure" but it seems an unnecessary step and can only lead to a sad outcome if a true newbie/scum hammers.

For those of you saying, oh no one is newbie enough to hammer here (yes you are probably right, but is it really worth the risk, a newbie town hammering another town would cost us 2 ML!)

Pretty pathetic that this was discussed so bluntly and it still ended up happening. What do you have to say about this, cavjj? It also strikes me that Scumhunter's promise to you to become more involved in the game could have been a determining factor in his demise:

@cavjj, Yes, you could call my usual behavior during RVS/early day 1 lurking. I will become very engaged in the game as we progress here.

Well, cavjj, let's hear it.

I also like how he says "It also strikes me that Scumhunter's promise to you to become more involved in the game could have been a determining factor in his demise" almost hinting at that he feels cavjj may be scum (distancing?), but the rest of D2 he defends cavjj to no end.

[I Am Innocent]

Two other notes I have on Honest Abel:

1) Post 229 "Then again, I think at a certain point, things begin to regress. I'd say we were nearing the pinnacle of a good time to lynch if not for Wickedestjr." A good time to lynch? D2 hasn't even been going for 2 real life days at this point. Someone likes quick days apparently, maybe he did coach cavjj to quick hammer D1...

2) the insults. I have not seen anything this bad since I was town and veridis was scum (Nobody, remember that game, you modded it) and attacked me D1/D2 until I got his butt lynched.

Here is one example, but there was other's in that thread to show how scum like to belittle town with insults and such.

Ah yes, logically arguing against someone making false accusations against me, savy indeed, I must have used my super-extra scummy knowledge to break through

IAI's excellent, never beatable play

. You attacked me with

weak evidence

and a

weak argument

, and

your killer evidence

did not exist until page 5. I defended myself against said

weak attack

with reason, I did not require any extra information to do so.
If you had a real case on me,

a player such as yourself

would surely have been able to prosecute that case effectively. Now you're trying to use the fact that you have no case on me, and that you're under threat of lynch to also prove that I'm scum? Wild flailings, nothing more.

Underlined continues to show your belittling efforts. Scuminess noted.
...

I need to reread the last 5-10 pages. People are saying that I am not posting enough, I think it is that others are posting at a ridiculous rate. This being my 27th post in 8 days of real life play is about right for me.

Like I said, I'll catch up on the voting history, address Honest Abel's accusations against me, and address any outstanding questions anyone has for me. If there is one I missed, please repost and I'll do my best to keep up. My vote will be coming shortly, either for cavjj or Honest Abel, whoever has more votes at this point.

[I Am Innocent]

This misleads the town as you try to force your opinion on others while not letting them to think for themselves. This is obviously not protown play. Actually, it's obviously anti-town because you KNOW that following one person is bound to mislead the town. And misleading is something only scum would want. Of course, in the position of a leader you are also less likely to be lynched. Yes, even if you make a mistake. You'll just easily put the blame for the mislynch on someone else and will make him the next target.

lol, like he did with you, me,

and cavjj

.

[I Am Innocent]

I don't get how my question gave scum a free shot at anyone. First of all because I merely asked the question and didn't know how people would respond. Second because we got various responses, from "lynch the IC, duh," to "IC would lynch, SE, or anyone could use WIFOM to lynch anyone." The variety of response paired with me not controlling the answers should free me from whatever blame you're trying to push on me for Scumhunter's death. What am I missing here?

But you controlled the question, and the question was based on night speculation, which is usually not a good thing.

The majority of the answers, aside from DC (the one that comes to mind), were that the most experienced players would be the one to go at night all else being equal. In hindsight, it appears that put a bigger target on everyone else.

My relationship with cavjj is simple: I attacked the easiest target from D1 to see how you and DC would react. I suspected you both for some iffy D1 conversation and because of the shared bandwagons. cavjj was also on those bandwagons, but he seemed the most obviously clueless/oblivious. So following my early D2 attack on him, I defended him only enough to cancel out what I said merely because I was using him as a target to get a response.

"Almost hinting"? I was using real reasons to go after cavjj to make him look as scummy as possible, so if any one of my reasons made him look like scum, it only makes sense. I just didn't personally believe those reasons added up to definite scum. This does not clear cavjj in my book, but I had two bigger fish to fry at the time. You'll see that he's been on my scumlist consistently, I think. Maybe I moved him to null when whilst dipped into scum. cavjj has had a very weak D2, though, and my current appraisal of him is scum.

Fair enough, I'll give that the benefit of the doubt. Still you did not address how conveniently it worked out that you had the first post of the day asking cavjj to explain himself, and then in no time at all, he had his whole "defense of his quickhammer" speech ready to go.

[I Am Innocent]

Aggressive behavior does not fit into my protown rulebook. There needs to be logic behind it. You're responding harshly to DC's points and telling me something you said to me should be taken as a "**** you." I'm not going to welcome aggressive behavior just because we pointed out how placid you were. You are simply trying to please us again.

You put your vote on DC "to get a response." Why you would vote for someone immediately after calling him town is beyond me. Furthermore, you said from the beginning that you're voting for him to see if he flips out. So he's going to be aware that you're doing it to get a response. But how his response will help you or help the town is also beyond me.

You're giving the outer shell of protown behavior while not thinking through the reasons behind it.

This is a good post.

[I Am Innocent]

IAI did explain his BBmolla vote pretty convincingly, though.

Right, on D2, with no proof that he didn't just come up with those reasons today. I actually skipped that post of his because it's irrelevant for that reason.

lol, kind of like how you were leary of DC and me on D1, right? I think my trail has much more evidence than yours buddy.

[I Am Innocent]

Not going to be available for around 24 hours guys. I know it's not quite VLA but thought you all should know.

In answer to Whilst's question about who I would like to see lynched; at the moment IAI and then whilst.

How about some reasons why.

[I Am Innocent]

This just crossed my mind for no reason:

NS, what do you think of cavjj given his D2 performance? All you've said about him is that he seems town based on #139, which you didn't explain. Explain and tell me what you think of cavjj overall.

Almost forgot this, sorry:

cavjj is lying low and not pinging me at all right now (unintentionally or not). I'm leaning pretty town with him, really.

And to explain #139: It's honestly more gut than anything else; it just strikes me as a very odd scumthing to say. It struck me as frustrated town at the time. Looking at it now, it doesn't exactly have the same effect it did when I first saw it, but I still don't think he's scummy.

Now, having said THAT, if whilst flips town, I'll be looking again at most everyone; cavjj will be high on my list simply due to the D1 hammer.

If whilst and IAI BOTH flip town, we're in trouble

. I'm not going to start lining up lynches, but I do know who my top two are if whilst & IAI are both town.

You are aware we are down to one mislynch left, right? (Doctor/Jailkeeper interference aside.)

[I Am Innocent]

Onto Post 472 now,

Honest Abels says:

1) "He targeted me solely because I targeted him." Among specifics you say I did not defend myself...which I did by saying my vote on you was an RVS, the first vote of the game, as you tried to say I was on both wagons.

You say I tried to make you look "scummy, stupid, or dishonest instead." Well when you say you suspected me and DC D1, and the last thing you say to me is well done, who wants to lynch BBmolla, I will be skeptical. And yes, I stand by what I said about voting me before DC....up to that point the only thing you mentioned about me was that DC followed me on the wagon (which means if DC is innocent, than the only evidence against me is null, so I must be innocent...so why not vote him first). I stand by that as well.

I really like how you say "He says that I'm berating his scumhunting abilities, even though he hadn't even used them yet. Perhaps if he had tried to scumhunt or put pressure on someone up to that point and I pointed out that his skills were weak, it could have made sense." which I respond as follows:

a) do you think scum IAI is more likely D1 to 1) give reasons to support each and every vote so as to not draw attention, or 2) play games like I did on page 4 by stating my Top 2 without reasons, to see if those around me would follow suit (and have to show why they are following suit since I did not spell out the case for them). Answer is #1. And for the record, #2 worked. Did you see DC, he hopped on and his main thing was he just wanted the day to end. And cavjj didn't give much of a better answer himself. That is why I suspected the two of them early D2. And that I would consider scumhunting.

continuing on the how would one thinks scum IAI would play it:

b) do you think scum IAI, with newbie partner DC or whoever you are claiming, would be better off 1) giving reasons to support each and every vote, thus helping out a teammate to use said reason to follow along in my voting, or 2) leave my "newbie" partner out there to dry and figure out every case on his own.

c) do you think scum IAI would 1) give some advice to a newbie scum teammate N0, maybe hint that being on the same wagon is not a good idea, voting without reasons is bad, maybe jumping on every wagon is not a good thing, or 2) leave my partner out to dry.

In case your not sure, I have 3 perfect scum wins to my credit, the one loss I have I replaced in to a hopeless situation. So if you are going to accuse me of being scum, please keep it consistent with my play as scum which has been pretty good, not this sloppy crap I have been accused of this game...

Point 2 "He sticks to what's easy" Yeah, I am one of the few people putting you under the microscope. How many posts do you have, 200 yet? Do you think that is easy. I got a wife and 3 kids and a full time job that in total, takes a lot of time out of me. Scum IAI would have buddied up to the loudest guy that most people found protown. I personally find some stuff shady about you, so I will call it as I see it...which may mean putting in more time than I normally do. But that is because I take these games seriously.

As for Post 85, I already stated why I jumped on BBmolla. I notice you and others continue to not even acknowledge that I provided a Top 2 list in that post. Yes I didn't give my reasons, but as a) above shows, that is less likely to happen from town than scum imo.

Minor points "He's not playing his self-proclaimed town meta." I've called for Top 2 suspects, I have pushed people for not voting (see whilst and dicknose D1). As for being absent, The game has been playerd over less than 8 real life days so far. As Nobody Special will tell you, the amount of posting in this game is ridiculously on the high side. For myself personally, I am on the higher end for my average as well...just trying to keep up. I have never replaced out in a game before, and do not plan to. I will usually respond to a case within 2-3 days of it happening. If that is considered "mostly absent and disengaged" than guilty as charged I guess.

"He's careful not to step on people's toes." When I said tad suspicious, I meant it. It was nothing worth pushing a lynch for on page 1, but it was worth noting. In games like these, I will usually comment on anything I find suspicious so when you get in 40 pages, I can just iso myself to refresh my memory on past shady stuff.

"He was followed by the same two players on each of his D1 votes." Once again, see points a) to c) above.

"He acts confused about the Scumhunter nightkill." It was not who I would have targeted. I even went back to see if there was any hint of a power role slip, and I saw nothing. So many better targets in my opinion.

"He simultaneously suspects and defends whilst." I explained later my thoughts on whilst. I find him very townie and am surprised he has so much suspicion D2. I actually think he would have been one of the better targets N1 than scumhunter, but I guess I am in the minority with much of my thinking this game.

[I Am Innocent]

Yes, but I'm pretty sure of both my reads.

Two town flips means game over. One town flip puts us in trouble.

So instead of admitting your mistake, you counter with "I'm pretty sure of both my reads"?

[I Am Innocent]

I think cavjj's actions on D1 and D2 speak for themselves.

And what are they saying to you?

[I Am Innocent]

IAI, "usually" isn't going to work here. This is a newb game. Please explain why night speculation is a bad thing.

Because town is likely going to tell the truth, and scum can use that to their advantage.

Also, my intent isn't pure speculation. It's to make scum choose between telling the truth and lying. If they tell the truth about what they would have done, they'll say they would have killed who was killed. If they lie about what they've done, then it's another thing they have to memorize and keep track of. It makes it tougher for scum either way you look at it. That's the value I see in it. Please let me know if you've got any counterpoints.

Honestly D1 when you did it I actually liked it. I thought it was protown. Hindsight is where it is kicking in for me. I think it did more damage than good. Whether it was a calculated move by scum Honest, or a move that may have backfired by town Honest, I won't know until you flip. But what I do know is if I knew then, what I know now, I think I would have put the kabbash on that line of questioning D1.

Also, I don't think our situations are similar enough to keep comparing. You voted for BBmolla on D1 without too much reason and never shared your reasons until D2, which means that you could have come up with those reasons

on

D2. So it creates uncertainty about the reasoning behind your vote, given that there is no evidence that you had come up with reasoning at the time of your vote.

Hopefully my rebuttal just prior to this post will help explain it. The evidence was surely there against BBmolla D1. Either way, it would only benefit scum IAI to post that evidence when he voted. There was no reason not to unless you think scum IAI is poor playing scum. Which hopefully my meta disproves.

The only logical thing is that I was trying to catch scum following me without evidence too. Which I what I think may have happened.

[I Am Innocent]

And what are they saying to you?

D1: poor voting judgment, quickhammer. Newbtownishness or newbscummyness? Up to gut, open for further discussion.

D2: Almost all defense. Nothing much in the way of protown action. Sticking around but not doing much. My stabilizing defense of him seemed to make him think he can just sit back and watch what happens. Definitely have to ISO him at some point. Not looking too good.

By itself, it is up for further discussion, but considering what you list under D2 which I happen to agree with, it is newbscummyness imo.

Yes, but I'm pretty sure of both my reads.

Two town flips means game over. One town flip puts us in trouble.

So instead of admitting your mistake, you counter with "I'm pretty sure of both my reads"?

Yep, there's something wrong about that. Doesn't sound like he meant flip via nightkill, either. I think it's highly unlikely whilst or IAI would be nightkilled, obviously. It's not a scumslip, though, is it?

I don't know if it is a scumslip or not, it just felt off.

**************

Side note - don't think I ever answered this, eastern time here.

[I Am Innocent]

Post 570 (dicknose)

"I just want to say, in regards to IAI's activity, that until recently he had fewer posts than singer, which is too few I think. That was my only problem."

I believe I had more posts than the IC/IC replacee combined. But no mention there...

**************

Post 571:

"IAI has a bad argument against Abel and some bad defenses in the subsequent discussion. He goes back and forth on several things, such as Bbmolla and his scumhunting methods. Also, so we're clear, are you saying one more mislynch before to mylo or one mislynch in total?"

Last thing first, yes a mislynch puts us a 4-2, and that would be enough for MyLo (and a successful NK would make it LyLo).

Please elaborate on the bad defenses. I want to know specifically what you have an issue with, esp since I went from only getting suspicion because of my post count from you in 570 to the scummiest player in your eyes per 572 with a vote in 573...

****************

Post 572 (dicknose)

"So whilst, cav, iai from scum to scummiest, but I'd also be okay with a darky vote."

Post 573 (dicknose)

"Unvote. Vote: Innocent."

*****************

While we're at it dicknose, why did you not answer my question in post 478?

[I Am Innocent]

Re Post 578 (cavjj)

That is the case you have on me? The reason that you now have 2 votes D2 and they are both on me? Scared to make too many enemies D2, so you go for the one that the IC and most talkative poster vote for prior to you jumping on 8/5.

Oh, and half the stuff you bring up in 578 I have already addressed, like "How can you be so dismissive" on my surprise on why scumhunter was the N1 choice. So either you are not reading my posts or just rehashing arguments by others.

This guy is obv scum.

vote cavjj

[I Am Innocent]

Also, what would you gain out of a cavjj flip?

One less scum alive?

[I Am Innocent]

@Mod, I think Nobody Special's last vote activity was an unvote of me on 8/5, but you have him listed with a vote on whilst. I do not see that anywhere and would like to ask you to verify if that is correct.

Thanks in advance!

Fixed, thanks!
~singer

[I Am Innocent]

cavjj, how so. Please explain.

*************

DC, I 100% disagree with "You ask us to look at your score or previous playstyle and become biased. Basically, you are asking us to do what players SHOULDN'T do." The more you know about a player, and how they play in a certain alignment, the easier it gets to look for those differences.

e.g. My first game on this site was with RayFrost, we were both town and we won in MyLo. Some time later he replaced into a game and I busted his scum butt in LyLo based on how non-committal he was to give anyone a likely town status. Very next game he was town IC and I scum SE and he saw right through me and my scum tactics. Luckily I got rid of him N1 and went on to win the game, but still, the more we know about someone's play, the better chance we can see how someone plays as scum and how someone plays as town and more correctly identify their alignment.

Re: "Asking newbies to do what is wrong doesn't exactly befitting of a SE, won't you agree?" I do agree with you, tho regarding your point I think meta is very important so I believe I am doing what is right in bringing mine forward.

************

Agree with DC about not discussing NK before the actual night for reasons I mentioned prior.

[I Am Innocent]

I know that NS will be fine with lynching IAI based on his comments. Or, at least, I believe that. So IAI should just come out with it now.

Than NS should be asking asking for the claim. I will claim once one of the 3 not on my wagon says they are ready to hammer.

Off the top of my head, the biggest post against IAI is one of his attacks on Abel where he sheeps a lot of Darky's complaints with far less reason. Darky argued with Abes a lot longer and seems to be an emotional player, so what little justification he had for feeling insulteed is a lot more than IAI had. The only emotion I've seen from IAI is pride in his win ratio, but based on his performance here I'm guessing a lot of luck was involved.

To respond to this and DC's comments about meta, it is pretty simple. A case was presented against me by Abel saying that I am scum with a newbie and the newbies gave me away. My retort is I have a pretty good tract record as scum:

1) 3 scum wins were perfect scum wins, meaning both me and my partner survived to the endgame.
2) all 3 of these wins were with newbie teammates....meaning I did alot of coaching there.
3) I was nom'd for a scummy for one of these wins....one where we took out sotty, nikanor, locke lamore as just a few of the great town players that we dup'd

Early this game I said I like playing town. I think it is more challenging than just latching on to a strong player or two and taking out the easy targets.

Yes I have had some bad town games, where I won, where I probably got lucky along the way. Nobody will tell you in the game with veridis that he modded, I self voted out of frustration. I did that in another game as town. Both games I made it to the end where I helped the town win. My strength as town is in late game analysis (MyLo, LyLo), esp linking scum 1 to scum 2. Unfortunately we are not there yet, and I am speculating with the rest of town, as well as going off my gut on a few players.

****************

Please people, before you ask for the claim, ask yourself, has IAI sounded like the scum guy above or town guy above? Why would scum IAI be defending the top 2 targets today other them himself when if he is scum, at least one of them has to be town? Why not take the easy lynch???

There's only one answer that makes sense...I'm town.

If one of the three not on my wagon calls for a claim, I will come forward. Please don't hammer without calling for a claim though

, that is a big mistake in these newbie games where many a power role got lynched that should never have happened imo (at least force the scum's hand on a suspicious power player instead during their night phase).

[I Am Innocent]

vote cavjj

It's nice that you two are so definite about each other's guilt. Nice omgus, there.

Yeah, I threw suspicion on him D1 and early D2. OMGUS the other way buddy.

[I Am Innocent]

Re Dicknose 650,

"Post 570 was a comment solely on your activity. It made no mention of scumminess"

Post 570 actually says "I just want to say, in regards to IAI's activity, that until recently he had fewer posts than singer, which is too few I think. That was my only problem."

What did you meant "That was my only problem"? The only explanation I see is that it related to scumminess. Please do explain

***********************

Not a big fan of this either "My last period of activity began with a "screw this, I'm going to bed." What do you think? I didn't think it was a terribly important question. I'm pretty sure I only voted Darky twice and that was for emphasis."

You didn't think it was a terribly important question??? I was really hoping that you did not see it buried in the post of mine, but you admit that is not the case. Afraid to admit you were scumming, I mean skimming?

And it was three times

. Post 124, Post 169, Post 186. None of which at the time hint at a repeat vote or "for emphasis"

I do not like your explanation that it was "for emphasis".

At the time, I actually saw it for one of two reasons:

1) protown reason, make it seem like it is a bigger wagon than it is and maybe you catch sleeping scum hopping on for the easy lynch (so I kept quiet to see if cavjj would try to quickhammer again)
2) scummy reason, try to confuse a newbie town into claiming early.

Re 2, Post 193 DC says "For example I'm quite close to lynch so" (despite only having one vote on him at this time).

Shady, especially in light of your explanation now (for emphasis) that you did not feel the need to give earlier when you were actually doing it.

[I Am Innocent]

EBWOP, mod, could you please fix the quote tags for me in Post 686.

Mod <3s you.

[I Am Innocent]

You'd think scum would have hammered the guy by now. There's enough against him to say "Yeah I agree" and lynch. Either he's scum and being bussed by his buddy,

or both scum are on the wagon

. Just an idea.

cavjj

&

Is a claim Necessary?

?

That would be my guess as of now.

[I Am Innocent]

Isn't it pretty much set that NS agreed to lynch IAI?

I don't see why we have to wait for the claim.

IAI, for the sake of saving time, isn't it better if you just claim now and when NS finally shows up he'll decide whatever to hammer or not?

Because now we wait until he arrives and says he wants to hammer. Then you claim. And then we wait again until he arrives and hammers (assuming your claim doesn't change anything). Looks like a waste of time to me. We could at least to skip the first stage, especially as it's pretty obvious it'll happen.

DC, if you intend to hammer, I will claim. If not, I will wait on whilst and NS. Chances are NS will call for a claim, and if he does, I will claim. I will not claim prior to that though. Giving scum more information than is absolutely necessary is not a good thing.

[I Am Innocent]

IAI lumping in whilst with someone who might lynch him and not DC is really weird. Something's strange about that.

Try reading it again. "DC, if you intend to hammer, I will claim. If not, I will wait on whilst and NS."

DC was around. The other 2 were not. These are the only 3 not on my wagon.

[I Am Innocent]

Whilst or Darky, change your mind and declare intent to hammer.

Trying to out power roles are you?

[I Am Innocent]

Well nobody cares about changing your mind, you're probably scum.

QFT

[I Am Innocent]

I'm eager for something new to happen in the game.

Claim how your scum and we'll lynch someone. I promise.

[I Am Innocent]

Hey dicknose, it's easy to get your post count up when you post one-liners all day.

PS - Who was it that said post quantity vs quality. DC I believe. Well done, you were right.

[I Am Innocent]

Dear beautiful mod, I believe Mr Abel has a vote on cavjj.

@ DC, whilst, or dicknose, any call for a claim from cavjj?

[I Am Innocent]

PS - 728 & 729 could be some of the worst bussing / distancing I have ever saw. :-p

[I Am Innocent]

I can tell you guys right now that I'm having a problem. I want to hammer cavjj, because I would be accepting of his lynch. But cavjj, don't claim. I am not ready to vote. Not to mention not everyone is awake right now, I want them to read the turn of events and comment.

All this, and I still think DarkClaymore is scummier

.

All this and NS's change of vote is also bothering me. Didn't he just say I was the scummiest on his list, and that IAI was second? NS, post your reasons why you think cavjj should be lynched over IAI.

Something to remember at this stage in the game is that we have two scum.

If you want to hammer, say so, let him claim, and give everybody a chance to comment before you do it. That's the safest thing to do. You can say you're going to hammer and then give us a day or two to talk about it.

Something about this feels off. Sounds like you are suggesting him to say he is ready to hammer (to get the claim) even if he is not sure he is?

But you're right, he did say that you're scummier than cavjj in #745. You quoted the wrong post.

whilst is allowed to change his mind. A few people have, including me.

Oh, right. Wrong post. Sorry
Nevertheless, he was pushing Cav's lynch the whole day. Why suddenly change his mind when his lynch target is FINALLY in danger? It's like: "Lynch Cav! I'm telling you, he's scum! I'm know there is no solid wagon atm but still, he's scum and I'll keep my vote! .... What? Cav's at L-1? I dunno... I think DC is somewhat scummier but ok guess...".

This stinks.

In his defense, he was just as uncertain D1. He was the only player not to vote that day.

Good. Use your aggressive feelings, boy. Let the hate

flow through

you.

Great.

I just noticed dicknose hasn't responded yet. I'll be waiting on him

and

NS then. Dicknose for his reactions/thoughts/comments and NS for the answer to my question.

Yes, I was noticing the quiet there too. With cavjj at L-1 no less.

[I Am Innocent]

EBWOP, L-2 now.

[I Am Innocent]

Well done guys.

I am a cop. The person I investigated was a jailkeeper, ergo we have no doctor.

Lies. Cops get Town / Scum reads, not specific power reads. Lynch at will people.

[I Am Innocent]

I have a very real problem with a cop hammering as you did on Day One.

Lynch at will.

Curious as an IC why you would not make the comment I just made.

[I Am Innocent]

Cop

You are a member of the local law enforcement, and can tell the good guys from the bad.

• Each NIGHT, you may send the moderator a PM with your choice of player that you want to investigate before the Night deadline.
  
• The Moderator will inform you as to that person’s guilt or innocence.
  
• If you are blocked by a Town Jailkeeper you will receive a PM stating “No Result”.
  
• At no time may you privately communicate with any other player.
  
• In a Newbie game, you will always get a correct result (no sanity issues).
  
• You win when all the Mafia players are gone, whether you survive to the end or not.

"The Moderator will inform you as to that person’s guilt or innocence."

lol, I'm guessing two newbie scum here.

[I Am Innocent]

Are you really suggesting a shot in the dark at 1 outta 6 when we can kill the guaranteed 7th?

[I Am Innocent]

Really IAI, couldn't you play around with him a little bit and extract info? That would have been much better

Sorry, never had a scum make that kind of claim before. We caught one, now catching the second with no power role(s) outted should be easy. Continuing down this path that whilst has suggested of trying to lynch scum #2 is very dangerous and we have a 25% chance of outting a power role*** if we take someone else to L-1.

My vote stays.

*** Chances are we have 1.5 power roles out of 6 unknown playes. 1.5/6 or 3.0/12 is 25%.

[I Am Innocent]

Ploy to make us think there's a doctor/jailkeeper so the mafia can claim it later?

This is possible, but my guess would be not likely.

Or, there simply could be one or both and one of them protected or blocked the right guy. What do you guys think, should we ask a potential jailkeeper to tell us who he jailed?

I don't think so. If we do have a jailkeeper, and the JK is the reason for a NK, then it could be he blocked the scum, but it could also be he blocked the NK target. In case of the latter, I do not think we out the power role.

Now we know nothing more than we did yesterday and there are a good number of scummy players left.

I disagree. We caught one scum. There must be a trail back to the other. I plan on doing a reread of the game with cavjj's status now known.

We also still have the same number of mislynches left (two) but now we have the option of nolynching, although I still think that would be pointless as it is. Correct me if I'm wrong.

You are correct. Though one more night without a kill, and we are up another mislynch. So the option of no lynching would be anti-town imo, especially with at least one power role alive.

And, since we don't know anything new right now, it could turn people off and make them less interested in the game, which is always a plus for mafia. So overall, those things combined with the fact that the mafia can now claim a power role for sure seems like a decent turn of events whether they did it on purpose or not.

Is anyone really less interested? I'm not. I find this game very interesting, and think town's chances of a win are pretty high right now. Now is when the real investigative works imo.

[I Am Innocent]

so who didn't want a shorter night?

I give up, who do you think? And why?

Just from reading cavjj's ISO:

• IAI is 99% town
• dicknose is probably town
• If whilst isn't scum, DC is
• No reads at all on NS from the cavjj ISO; he hardly talks about or interacts with NS, except at one point he admits reading up on Wickedestjr, saying that he was just forced to claim in one game and lynched in another. Hmm.

As it is, I say we lynch whilst and then DC or NS. I will have to look more at the patterns I noticed with cavjj's aggression/compliance with certain players.

Nobody should have someone else at 99% town. 100%, yes based on power role information. But 99% is very dangerous, even with a mislynch to spare.

Also, do not like the lining up lynches. We need to come up with a consensus for the most likely scum, and hope we get it right. If we're wrong, we better do a better job D4.

He uses "fair enough" and "fair point" several times to me, which I guess means it's something he does with people who are, to him, obvious townies or people he wishes to look townie. He says "to be fair" to usually to make a negative point to someone, but sometimes to make a reinforcement of someone's idea.

Interesting. I will keep this in mind when I start my reread.

Okay so... the jailer didn't die

. Rather, no one died.

As much as, in a way, it's a good thing, it has it's disadvantages as Abel stated

. I was looking forward learning something new.

Guess I'll have to reread as well

. Was waiting until N2's death is revealed but... it was pointless...

BTW, I have a question to everyone. Assuming a jailer were to be killed on N2, what would be your conclusions from that?

I think there is one interesting aspect to that but I'd like to hear what others think about it first.

Why are you so confident that we have a jailer at this point?

As for your last question, I already read ahead so I think I understand where you are going with this. Not sure I agree, otherwise the jailer would be dead in my opinion unless the jailer jailed the scum, in essence protecting himself.

I was waiting specifically to see how Honest Abel would react to the lack of nightkill before I posted.

I will give you my results.

I jailkept Honest Abel last night.

There are two possibilities:

1) Abelscum and

2) Abeltown.

I'm personally leaning Abelscum, for reasons that I will expand on after some discussion. I'd like to hear everyone's thoughts (

especially

Abel's).

Umm, substitute any player's name in 1 & 2 and the statement is still true.

I personally hate this claim, because I think you may be forgetting that a Doctor could also be out there. Despite hating it, it is likely legit. Scum NS has no reason to fake claim at this point in the game.

[I Am Innocent]

I'm personally leaning Abelscum, for reasons that I will expand on after some discussion. I'd like to hear everyone's thoughts (

especially

Abel's).

Hmm... I have to admit I'm also leaning toward Abel being scum. I has been doing for a while. And wow... if you are really Jailerkeeper then my deduction was correct. I assumed if mafia knew the jailer, it'd be the IC. Because he'd be the first one I'd investigate as scum.

As for this specific situation, I'd say aiming at Abel isn't the smartest move during the night. Whatever scum did or didn't know if there are protective roles, a sole scum should try and

kill

someone. Even if the target isn't the most protown player there is. If we are dealing with an awfully tricky scum who knew there is a jailer, he could choose to not kill and then frame whoever the jailer blocked. But I'm not sure about this...

So you think maybe Scum Abel investigated NS N1, then tried to kill him N2 but was beat to the punch by the JK? Interesting theory.

Night One I (or, specifically, Wickedest) jailed DC.

So if DC was the role cop, he would not have gotten his investigation in N1. Interesting.

But then again, if I were mafia, I wouldn't have made cavjj perform the kill knowing that he'd be the subject of suspicion for the D1 quickhammer. I would say that greatly decreases the odds that DC is scum.

I'm not so sure. Remember, the living scum is the role cop. If the role cop performed the kill N1, they'd be risking putting all their eggs in 1 basket. One way to hedge is to each take on a responsibility.

My initial thinking was that if a Jailer dies (who I hoped isn't NS, even though I guessed chances are high he is) then indeed they used a code.

Can you explain this sentence more? What you mean by it?

A suggestion: How about ending this day with no lynch and letting NS jail Abel again? If no one dies again, then Abel most likely scum. I doubt scum will overlook the opportunity to kill the jailer. Of course, in exchange this will make Abel confirmed townie next day, but he can always be killed the next night. So I believe if Abel isn't scum, the Jailer will be killed. While scum can choose to not kill in order to frame Abel, it's debatable how likely that is and whatever this is the best move for scum or not. I believe killing a powerful PR should take priority to framing a townie who can be killed latter anyway.

Terrible idea. I will not explain why for fear of helping our remaining scum strategize.

Here's the deal with the claim gambit: If scum-NS claims jailkeeper and thereis a real jailkeeper, the counterclaim means that we simply lynch both of them and one of them will be scum, meaning instant town win; If scum-NS claims jailkeeper and there isn't a real jailkeeper, it's pretty much instantly a win for him because nobody would suspect him of claiming under such risky circumstances. We just have to decide whether NS is a gambling man or not.

Yes, if there is a JK out there, they should have counter claimed already. (FTR, I am not a JailKeeper.)

There's nothing weird about cavjj bolding the 5, and he wouldn't be the one giving the code anyway. His partner would.

Anyway, I'm down with the NS jailing me again tonight plan. Let's lynch whilst.

I am not sure NS should say who he is jailing. If he is the JK, I'd be more comfortable with him playing cat and mouse with the scum rather than allowing the scum to know our plans and how best to react to them.

You're an anchovy right now.

I'm trying to figure out if this is a compliment or insult...

*********************

My summary prior to my reread:

dicknose was my #1 suspect once cavjj outted himself. He has done very little since cavjj outted himself, almost like he has felt the tides turn. I'm going to try my darnedest to keep an open mind during my reread tho...

Other thoughts:

cavjj seemed to hint that he knew a JK was out there, but in post 797 he says "Unfortunately, said jailkeeper isn't here to corroborate my story."

But Post 796 (4 minutes earlier) was made by Nobody Special, our claimed JK. So either way, it appears cavjj was lying. So I will not be paying attention to the mystery code/hints that some think are out there as I do my reread.

[I Am Innocent]

Also, usually, when I survive the night with a nokill, I say that it's because I was targeted by the mafia and a protection.

except in our last game when you were kept alive for being clueless protown and in your game on here where you were scum. no dice.

Who do you think is cavjj's teammate and why?

[I Am Innocent]

Of course, we could just lynch Whilst, or whoever, today and then lynch Abel tomorrow in case there's no NK again.

Are you so certain that Honest is scum? Cause if not, this concerns me verily "we could just lynch Whilst, or whoever".

Who do you think is cavjj's teammate and why?

i'll answer questions and be more detailed either tonight or in the morning.

Still waiting.

There is no strategy you can plan right now that will guarantee a town win. The sooner you get over that and return to scumhunting, the better for town.

QFT (esp when you substitute "we" for "you" above)

A single mislynch at this point means a D4 in which you and whilst are both alive, meaning it will be a 50/50 shot that mafia wins. Even if you are town, you should be able to see that leaving one of you alive severely lessens the chance of a town win. One of you is town and just playing poorly. One of you needs to admit that and lynch the other or die for the cause.

Why do you think whilst is cavjj's teammate?

I could join Whilst's wagon I suppose, but before then I'd like to see what others have to contribute.

Same question to you DC. And why are you waiting to see what others have to contribute?

Yes, at least one, and 2/3 odds for another.

Theoretically it is half. (1/2 the scenarios have a VT and 1 power role, the other 1/2 scenarios have 2 power roles).

[I Am Innocent]

Pondering on this HA thing. I'm not going to lie, going into N2 HA was not even in my Top 3 list of the 5 other remaining players.

I still plan on doing my reread, and will make my decision / vote after I have my best guess at who our remaining scum is, and not sooner.

[I Am Innocent]

D1 reread:

Post 8, cavjj says the person posting after him will receive his vote, which ends up being me.

Post 14, despite voting RVS for me in 15, he already expresses his willingness to vote HA. HA has already received 2 RVS votes. Would cavjj being will to put this much heat on his partner by post 14? +1 HA

Post 45, leaves my wagon of 1 and seems willing to join the largest wagon "I think I'll be voting for Honest Abel.". Note HA just received his 3rd vote the post before...so is he ready to take his partner to L-1? +1 HA

Post 54, does a vote count check, so he knows HA has 3 votes (next largest wagon is 1)

Post 55, puts HA at L-1. That would be extremely gutsy for a newbie scum to take a rolecop partner to L-1 on D1 with a bunch of other newbies around. +1 HA

Post 59, removes his L-1 vote 55 minutes after casting it.

Post 64, scumhunter makes an interesting observation "I feel like you knew you weren't actually going to be hammered on page 3 here and that you are just trying to fake keep your cool here. Why is that?" scum HA would have known that teammate cavjj was probably not going to leave that vote on for long, did scumhunter catch this? Interesting that scumhunter died N1 too.

Post 65, from HA, felt very cordial with cavjj. This felt very different than how he reacted with me D2. Something to note.

Post 68, wicked states cavjj as one of the 3 he sees as town at the moment (along with HA and BBmolla).

Post 69, dicknose suspects whilst and cavjj.

Post 88, after being called out for a no vote, he votes cavjj. at this point HA has 3 votes, and the only other vote is for whilst, who in post 69 was dicknose's other suspect. interesting he decided to cast a single vote for cavjj when he could have built up the wagon on whilst. distancing for the win? (for the record, cavjj had one post between 69 and 88 and it said "Alright all, just got back and promised a post, will be with you shortly")

Post 90 DC votes BBmolla to L-1, 50 minutes later cavjj hammers without a chance to claim.

D2 to come (probably in parts).

[I Am Innocent]

Speaking of IAI, I'd like to hear his strategy for moving forward.

I got a lot of thoughts in my head, and major concerns about spilling useful information to the wrong player. So I will probably write everything down, and reread and delete things that should not be said D3 in case we lynch the wrong player. (so apologies in advance if this feels a bit all over the place.)

1) My reread. I am not a big fan of going beyond my #1 suspect. If we are wrong and mislynch today, I don't want the scum to know if he can count on me to be on or off his wagon the next day. This worked well for me in Newbie 924, where I ended up being the last NK cause I wouldn't say who my next suspect was beyond our D3 mislynch. Had I made it thru the night and into LyLo D4, I would have picked the wrong target and we would have lost (town ended up winning tho). For this reason, I do not think I want to provide my full analysis from D2. I think scum can use that to determine if I am a good person to keep around D4 or not assuming a mislynch D3.

2) I have debated on whether a cop should come forward or not. If it is HA, then that keeps us from a mislynch of him and we can focus elsewhere. It also keeps NS from using his JK ability on HA N3. And if HA had an investigation from N1 that is still alive, then we have a confirmed townie. If someone other than HA claims cop, since nobody died and JK jailed HA, we should have a confirmed townie from N2. May also have 1 from N1.

If we do decide we want a cop claim, HA should go first imo. Please no one claim cop until a majority of the people say this is a good idea.

3) A doctor should 100% not come forward unless a cop has also claimed, thus confirming 3 town and putting the last scum in {NS, cop claim, doc claim}. I would also hope the doctor would protect NS tonight if no cop claim happens.

4) I also do not like NS being told where to use his JK ability. If he is scum, it helps us sure as he is boxed in a bit, but I still think NS was not a likely lynch target today so I still believe the claim. With that said, directing a townie power ability during the day only helps the scum, as they can plan around that at night. Esp if it is the IC who has the townie power, he should be smart in knowing how best to use it.

5) Assuming we mislynch today, and a NK does happen, the group should mass claim and provide all information D4. If a NK does not happen, then the group still has a mislynch and I would think that waiting til LyLo/MyLo for a mass claim is best for the group.

Whoever ends up being the lynch candidate today should provide a list of order of those to massclaim (who should go 1st, 2nd, etc). The assumption being if the lynchee is scum, game over. If not, we have an unbiased list which should hopefully have scummier players forced to not claim or fake claim earlier in the claiming process.

6) The group needs to decide what to do with HA. Do we lynch or not lynch him? Once we figure that out, we can go to Plan B (everyone else) if necessary. I struggle because I think there are definitely scummier players out there, but I also think we all will have this uncertainty if he continues in the game. If he is town, he is a huge liability in LyLo/MyLo. Also, if we lynch him and he is scum, game over, if he is town, well, JK gets to play cat and mouse tonight with the scum. If we lynch a townie today and HA/NS are still alive, I fear there will be a huge temptation for the JK to jail the same player again and scum will plan around that.

So in summary, I vote for a cop claim at this point. A claim should give us more information that should narrow things down, a no claim should convince us even more that NS is likely the JK. Once we have that figured out, I think we all vote on whether HA should be the lynch or not today.

[I Am Innocent]

Why isn't whilst lynched yet?

Any thoughts on the Cop claiming D3? Why is it a good idea / bad idea?

Same questions @ Dicknose as well.

[I Am Innocent]

i can accept whilst.

This sounds very convincing. Is whilst your #1 suspect?

[I Am Innocent]

dicknose, who is your #1 suspect?

[I Am Innocent]

I still want to hear what Nobody Special thinks about asking for a cop claim D3. Once I hear that, I will list out the pros and cons as I can see them.

***********************

i

can accept

whilst.

VOTE: whilst

Why isn't whilst lynched yet?

Any thoughts on the Cop claiming D3? Why is it a good idea / bad idea?

Same questions @ Dicknose as well.

i can accept whilst.

This sounds very convincing. Is whilst your #1 suspect?

i don't know and

no

dicknose, who is your #1 suspect?

I

suppose

you and whilst are my top two.

dicknose, compare cavjj's case on IAI to his cases on other townies. Very similar, in my opinion. He also kept IAI at L-1 for a long time. How do you reconcile those two facts with your suspicion of IAI?

I haven't looked at that, will do later.

if so, that would make me go whilst or abel.

So after tunneling DC on D2, he's the least or second-least suspicious to you?

I'm more annoyed by him than I think he's scum right now

This guy is all over the place. He obviously is doing no research, and suspecting the "popular" targets or just straight OMGUS. He uses words like "can accept" and "I suppose" which are very wishy washy and easy to turn around on. I try to get him to take a firm stance and in reply he OMGUS's me to his #1 suspect (yet I saw no evidence of that suspicion D3...)

Two seconds ago he said whilst is not his top suspect, but that me and whilst are (that makes me #1, right?). Then after one question, he drops me from the #1 on the list to somewhere 3 - 5, and adds in Honest Abel. You have dicknose who just wants to lynch anyone not named dicknose, and you have whilst who is volunteering to go first, even self voting. Sure could be a ploy, but would scum take that chance that we would call their bluff???

Still don't like dicknose's vote for cavjj in Post 728 with the line "I don't appreciate you disparaging my character." Nothing about finding him scummy, just "don't make me look bad". Oh, and he unvoted him 1 minute later. (This all took place prior to the fake claim.)

********************

Not ready to lynch as I want to figure out if a cop claim is in order or not D3, also still not sure if HA or someone other than HA makes for the best lynch today. Still I want my vote on record, and I am voting for the person I think is most likely scum:

vote dicknose

[I Am Innocent]

whilst, who is your #1 suspect?

[I Am Innocent]

Actually, I already came up with a reason NS would be comfortable claiming JK: he investigated cop and doc already

. The chances are somewhat slim if you look at it as pure odds, but more possible if you consider that NS would have good guesses based on players' gameplay so far. Evidence of this could be found in NS or cavjj's iso, e.g., targeting a new player strongly for a lynch after the start of a new day.

Note how cavjj was reluctant to say that NS was jailkeeper; there would be no reason for a non-NS-scumteam-cavjj

not

to come out with who the jailkeeper is if they actually knew it. Really, either they didn't know it or NS is a fake.

Then why not support what I suggested earlier, checking for a cop counterclaim? If there is no CC, then believing NS would seem more likely. If there was a CC, then the Doc could come forward as well, which would also look very poorly on NS...

Pros and Cons for a cop counterclaim as I see it:

Cons
If there is a cop, he will be outted and could be a target for NK

Pros
If there is not a cop:
1) It makes NS's claim more believeable
2) It boxes the scum in D3 and D4 for less flexibility to counterclaim (one less power role to do so)
3) Doctor can then be told to protect NS, which also boxes the scum in further

If there is a cop:
1) Will add one to two confirmed innocents based on N1/N2 investigations (equals 2 Conf. Inn. assuming N1 investigation was not cavjj or scumhunter)
2) If there is also a doctor, he can out himself knowing the cop or JK are fakeclaiming (giving us a 2 in 3 chance of winning)
3) Can force scum's hand on who to kill N3

[I Am Innocent]

1.) IAI
2.) whilst
3.) Abel/Darky

I do not suspect NS.

Your first vote of D2 was for Darky. What changed to drop him down for 3rd/4th on your scum list?

[I Am Innocent]

CopClaim

[I Am Innocent]

EBWOP, short reason is the pros list far outweights the cons list.

[I Am Innocent]

Well, I was and still is for:

Copclaim

There's the part of confirming NS's claim as well as having at least one less suspect. I see it like this:
If cop claims and doc claims, then yeah it's good.

If cop claims and no doc claims, then we might be putting both JK and Cop on the line since one of them might be killed. In this situation, my suggestion is: NS jails Abel and Cop investigates someone. No matter who out of the two dies, someone will become confirmed for next day. And if there's no NK again, then Abel is likely to be our scum. Unless scum really decides to not NK. Which is

awfully

dangerous as the cop might investigate the scum that night.

So all in all, I think cop claim will help us more than it'll cause harm.

If a cop claims and no doc follows, it means we 1) have a cop & JK or 2) one of the two claimed players is lying, which unfortunately we would not be sure which it is.

What we would know though is 1-2 confirmed innocents based on cop investigations the first 2 nights. At least 1 of which would still have to be alive.

In that case, if a cop claimed and no doc did, my suggestion would be for NS to block the "confirmed townie", which would have to be vanilla (assuming it is not himself, which would be the worst case scenario...)

[I Am Innocent]

In that case, if a cop claimed and no doc did, my suggestion would be for NS to block the "confirmed townie", which would have to be vanilla (assuming it is not himself, which would be the worst case scenario...)

Why...?
Because that player will be the only one in that situation who is 100% cleared, even if cop claimer is scum?
I don't really agree with this course action as the confirmed townie should bother the scum much less than the cop.

All I can think about is scum killing the confirmed townie in order to frame the cop, who should have been the obvious NK target. But surely if scum knows that townie will be jailed, then he'll target the cop no matter what. In this case, we get 0 extra confirmations for next day. It'll be 4 players out of which only one is confirmed instead of two.

On the other hand, if scum targets the confirmed townie in my plan, then both JK AND Cop can clear one player each. EVEN if Cop or JK is scum, they'll be FORCED to clear players the following day.

If we are going to have 4 players going into D4, I want at least 1 of them confirmed innocent. I guess in this scenario, as long as NS agrees not to jail the claimed cop, we will be guaranteed one confirmed innocent, either the one investigated from a previous night if they kill the cop, or if they kill the previously investigated one a new person will be investigated by the surviving cop. Yeah, so either way it doesn't matter.

I still vote for a copclaim D3, and I still like my vote on dicknose.

[I Am Innocent]

Unless anyone out there also thinks that NS took the risk in claiming jailkeeper because he knew he'd be lynched for those comments otherwise. Am I the only one who thinks that's possible?

It is possible, but then one of the following happened:
1. rolecop NS investigated a doc / cop N1 and N2 in some order.
2. rolecop NS got one successful investigation, and one VT
3. rolecop NS got two VT

#1 does not seem likely, 1) because the chances of hitting both are rare, and 2) I do not see an easy way to win as town is sure to mass claim at LyLo / MyLo.

#2 would be the most likely, if he found one role he knew for sure that one of the other two is certainly not in the game (if we have 2 power roles), maybe neither are (50% chance we only have 1 power role).

#3 might make scum feel that their is likely 1 power role, as the odds of investigating 2 vanilla town (with a 3rd VT dead D1) with 2 power roles is fairly unlikely. Still which power role to select to fakeclaim would be risky. (Could be that rolecop NS targeted a very townie player N2 to NK, when they did not die he assumed a doctor was in play??? That this the only rationale I can think of for this scenario...)

The fact of the matter is, we may only have 1 power role and it may be NS. If that is the case, I am not willing to lynch what could be our only confirmed town without a mass claim.

[I Am Innocent]

Makes sense, but who suspected NS going into N2? He didn't need to claim jailkeeper unless he had a specific point to prove.

His reaction to the claim was pretty poor in my opinion (meaning that he "missed" that a cop would not get a power role result, only a good guy / bad guy result). And he was one of the two players (along with HA) voting to lynch someone else (dicknose) after the cavjj claim. Neither made me feel all warm and fuzzy inside going into N2.

[I Am Innocent]

I am completely against a copclaim. The only people it would benefit is the mafia. If NS is telling the truth about being a Jailkeeper, then we have some chance to 'investigate'.

Whilst, I would unvote, but I am far more interested in what claim you may have.

BTW, I don't like the contradiction here:

1) "I am completely against a copclaim. The only people it would benefit is the mafia." - I read that as unnecessary claims help the bad guys.
2) "Whilst, I would unvote" - I read that as he is not your top suspect for scum.
3) "but I am far more interested in what claim you may have" - I read that as you want him to claim

Why would you be pushing for an unnecessary claim, one that you don't sound ready to lynch yourself?

[I Am Innocent]

Either Abel is innocent or he's mafia.

Once again this is true for all 6 players.

Let's bank on Abel being innocent, shall we?

This is not sound town strategy (and not just in regards to Abel, but to any of us).

I think the best thing to do, is to go no lynch

AND

for NS

not

to jailkeep Abel. If we want to keep the maximum number of townies alive, that's the best approach. If you don't want to (majority tomorrow is 3 no matter what), then let's just scumhunt some more and see what we get to help.

We do not win by trying to keep townies alive, we win by lynching scum. We nabbed one, now we get (at least) two shots at nabbing the second. To no lynch comes back to the post I showed you D1, it helps scum because your minimizing your lynch attempts.

To summarize my main points:
1. I wouldn't mind no lynching.
2. NS, tell us who you jailkeep during N3, on D4.
3. The scum gets another rolecop investigation tonight.

1. I would.
2. I am actually starting to see the benefits of this, we are guaranteed a confirmed townie or live power role D4 if we do this.
3. Not if scum dies today.

[I Am Innocent]

Whilst, it seems like the person I am replacing would have no qualms with lynching you

.

I intend to hammer, please claim.

I'm speechless.

[I Am Innocent]

Meh. I don't really feel like hammering whilst. I don't feel as if he is scummy. My top two are Abel, and IAI.

Iai, just because he isn't all that active.

Wow, you call for the claim based on your predecessor's suspicion, get a VT claim, and then change your mind about hammering based on your feelings. So that is how it works? Or could it be that you want to check into other player's roles as well.

PS - Please define not being "all that active"?

[I Am Innocent]

Computer fried by Irene. On wife's I touch.

X eras
Whilst
Dc
Me

Hope to have computer fixed in next few days...

[I Am Innocent]

Vanilla town here

[I Am Innocent]

Computer fixed!!!

Because I am a doctor. I was waiting for someone IAI to slip. But it didn't happen.

I am going to protect you during night four, and cut it down to to only two people to choose from. ^^

lol, so what would keep scum from claiming doctor after everyone else has claimed, then not NK'ing anyone N4 and pretending it is because of his protection. Not buying it dude.

What you're offering here, assuming you're really doc, is to let me choose the scum next day. While a 50-50 situation is nice, I still might miss. Well, let's see what others think. Both IAI and Whilst are pretty quiet, especially the latter, and it doesn't make the game any easier.

Not a 50-50 split, see above.

I didn't protect anyone during night 3. Otherwise it would mess with the results concerning you and your being cleared. Before that. I have no idea. There was no real reason for singersigner to tell me the previous actions.

This is total lie. Doc protection does not interfere with any other player's results other than a NK.

I also call a lie on this:

@mod, would you automatically forward previous night actions from a replaced player to the replacee?

[I Am Innocent]

Just something I noticed by going over the thread...
D1 L-1 wagons:

Honest Abel (4):

I Am Innocent

,

Dark Claymore

,

BBmolla

,

cavjj

BBmolla (5):

Scumhunter

,

Honest Abel

,

I Am Innocent

,

Dark Claymore

,

cavjj

IAI. You said at the very beginning of the game how you tend to analyze vote histories. Assuming you were looking at this objectivity, forgetting how you're town, what would be your conclusion?

If it was two newbies, it could be telling. I would expect an experienced scum player though to teach a newbie player like cavjj at distancing oneself from your teammate, which usually means not being on the same town wagon.

Then again, I would have also expected an experienced scum player to teach the newbie scum to lay low, especially on D1. And hammering on page 4 seriously hints that cavjj was not given this advice.

Also, you said you suspect Xeras, hence former Dicknose, the most. How close was Dicknose to being your top suspect BEFORE he was replaced?

I started to suspect Dicknose late D2, though I was one that said to keep the lynch going on the confirmed scum and not Dicknose (remember HA and NS were pushing for Dicknose after the cavjj outting of himself). I said we could find his teammate D3. Not something that scum IAI would do for town Dicknose if you know what I mean.

D3 I placed one vote and never unvoted. It was for Dicknose, later Xeras. (Oh, and for the record, I made one vote D2 and never unvoted, cavjj). Ask yourself, is that evidence of smart scum play? Or more likely, that I am town?

[I Am Innocent]

EBWOP, I am obviously not 100% sure Xeras is scum, though the lies he has made this page makes me feel better about my gut town read of whilst. Still, I want to focus on D2, and plan to reread over the next few days and see what evidence comes up. D1 was too short and D3 the lone scum did not have a teammate to possibly protect anymore. Let's see what D2 tells...

[I Am Innocent]

Let's say I protected NS. NS jailed Claymore. If no one died, because of me protecting the proper person, who would we be trying to lynch today?

If no one died, we would have an extra mislynch today, so there is no reason or way that a real doctor would not have used his protection last night.

But you are right. I am lying about being a doctor. ^^ I wanted to see what kind of information I could gain from a fakeclaim.

Then why did you not fake claim right away, you started the day saying you were VT? It doesn't add up, unless you are scum and once you saw I was VT that you hoped for an out to be a "confirmed innocent" (pretending to be the doc, offering to protect DC and then not NK'ing anyone N4...)

During day one, neither member of the mafia was in danger. I don't see both members of the mafia teaming up twice.

An interesting note from D1, while scum cavjj was voting every which wagon he could get on, whilst and dicknose did not vote as of Post 86 (I called each of them out in Posts 85/86).

Not much time elapsed before cavjj hammered, but whilst never did get a vote in that day, and when dicknose finally voted in Post 88, surprise, surprise, it was for cavjj (afraid to get on any townie's bad side that early in the game?)

i suppose i was waiting for a stronger read, but i might as well

VOTE: CAVJJ

until i get on the laptop in a couple hours.

From my viewpoint now, it seems obvious that cavjj was the free to wreak havoc player while rolecop whilst/dicknose decided to lay low...

[I Am Innocent]

Interesting. I am glad I choose to reread your post. You have played scum four times, on this site. All of which was in newbie games, which prohibit day time communication with your fellow partner. You was quick to jump on my fakeclaim.

So was does not having day time communication have to do with anything?

As for your fakeclaim, when somebody says, "oh I'm VT, wait, no I am the doctor, but I did not protect because it would mess with the JK's jailing ability, and the mod did not forward on to me earlier day time protections", red flags start to jump up. Kind of like what I did when cavjj said he was the cop and he now knows who the JK was. When something does not add up, when lies are apparent, I will call it out and quickly.

[I Am Innocent]

Let's see. If I was scum, in a lylo condition, what would I do. I wouldn't lie about being a powerrole. I would try to hide out as much as possible. Not saying that whilst is hiding out. He is on v/la.

If you thought a power role claim could get you a "confirmed townie" status, yes, I could see you lying about it.

As for trying "to hide out as much as possible", scum Xeras would have known to be fighting an uphill battle based on DC being confirmed innocent if a NK went through, plus power role NS, plus me who voted for his and only his slot D2...so hiding out wouldn't have been an option. So please don't use the WIFOM arguments.

Lying about a power role, yes that would be an option. Pushing for a no lynch and dumping confirmed innocent DC, who seems 50/50 to be leaning your way, an option. Surprisingly, 2 things you have tried to do today.

[I Am Innocent]

Xeras, what do you think scum tried to do N2?

[I Am Innocent]

Xeras, why were you playing so scummy during the end of D3 if you're the doctor, or innocent? And if you're the doctor (DC is cop), then IAI is the scum. I could make a case against you because of your late D3 actions, but now I need to consider making a case against IAI.

If you are town, you should be making a case on both of us, and then making a decision on who is more likely scum in your eyes.

IAI pointed out that cavjj's claim was pure BS after NS stated that a cop hammering is unlikely (and therefore scummy). Perhaps IAI saw that his scumpartner was doomed and decided to help by killing him off. Besides, how long was it before someone else pointed out cavjj's mistake?

Why help by "killing him off"? We now know there is no cop/doctor and only 1 power role, so back on D2 at most scum would have known that there is a JK. So why would scum IAI not lay low and see if some player counter claims cop or doctor. I basically killed any chance at a power role outting themself by calling out cavjj's lies. Is that something you would think I would do if I was cavjj's teammate?

[I Am Innocent]

Xeras, please respond to Post 1459.

[I Am Innocent]

BTW, did anyone understand what this post #125 was about...? I tried reading before, after and... I just don't get what it is...

For some reason it really bothers me

It is page 6, less than 30 posts from the beginning of the day. You think it was dicknose's way of telling cavjj his N1 investigation?

[I Am Innocent]

I basically killed any chance at a power role outting themself by calling out cavjj's lies. Is that something you would think I would do if I was cavjj's teammate?

If I recall correctly, Cav said he was a detective, and investigated someone. Then he got a role instead of alignment. This is an obvious slip. If I was his scum partner, I Would want to make sure I was one of the first to say something.

Rather than a chance at a CC and knowing who the cop or doctor is??? Yeah right.

[I Am Innocent]

Um, all right. I guess it was "funny"....not.

Xeras, I still have no way of trusting you of being doctor. We could have NS as our only PR. You still have to answer for your scummy D3 actions.

---

Looking at cavjj's posts, this one in particular did make me wonder why cavjj would take this 'stance'. So I looked for his reasoning and I quote (source):

IAI has gone all the game being seriously defensive and somehow getting away with it. He goes long periods of time without posting, defends himself and levels his post out with a very small acknowledgement of suspicion. There are very few cognitive projective arguments from IAI. Usually only small comments finished with “noted.” . He’s lurking, not saying enough and he’s scum.
Let’s take a look at IAI’s analytic nature. When he does actually post, they are full of analysis, while at the same time giving very little away. Most of his analysis only goes along with what we already actually know. That we should suspect player x or player y. Then when something comes up that actually needs analysing, he comes up with this gem:

N1, have no idea scumhunter was the choice. He came off as very null D1, so not sure what scum was thinking.

How can you be so dismissive?

------------------------------

VOTE: I Am Innocent

I am off for lunch, I will post my whilst stuff later today

Reading that again, I can't even understand that point cavjj was trying to make against IAI...it's not incriminating at all. Now either cavjj is trying to distance himself because he is IAI's scum partner, or cavjj was scum and only wanted IAI to be lynched. The latter is the part that doesn't make sense.

We know that NS's JK-actions saved Abel from the mafia kill. Abel did start the bandwagon to kill cavjj, and he also did bring IAI to L-1 -- if cavjj and IAI are the duo, it is easy to see why IAI targeted Abel. IAI could have been afraid that Abel would bring the attention back to IAI during the following day. Just speculation, but worthy to note.

By my own logic, particularly the point of cavjj's 'stance' against IAI, I can bring myself to doubt IAI's status as townie. I will wait for Xeras' day 3 defense, and IAI's comments. I would place a vote on IAI, but one wrong lynch and we lose (assuming DC votes to lynch IAI).

That attack by cavjj was basically a recount from parts of HA's attack on me from Post 472, up to an including the scumhunter comment.

Just scum parroting a town on a wagon that is not on him nor his teammate.

[I Am Innocent]

There's also the funny possible slip here where he said "If I were

role cop

" instead of "If I were

jailer

". No one asked about Jailer in the first place. So...

Ding ding ding, we have a winner folks!

So I convinced myself for now:
VOTE: Xeras

In a situation like this (MyLo with you being the only confirmed townie), you should really be the last to vote.

[I Am Innocent]

Xeras, please respond to Post 1459.

Third time's a charm?

[I Am Innocent]

What do you think would be more likely.
A whole post dedicated to a rolecop investigation, or choosing a word to begin your first post with?

What do you think would be more likely, scum laying low D1, or pushing the first town wagon to L-1 and hammering the second town wagon without a claim?

Just because you and I would do it one way doesn't mean this scum team with the highly erratic cavjj with a coach telling him to say his investigation was a power role reveal would!

@whilst, did you say on the other site that cop investigations sometimes give you a power role reveal? And does dicknose also play on that site?

[I Am Innocent]

Xeras, what do you think scum tried to do N2?

See I was avoiding this question because I wasn't here night 2. Let's see. That is when Honest Abel was jailed, and there was no kill correct?

Yeppers. So what do you think scum tried to that night?

It seems like it'll take a while for voting to begin (especially for the hard to convince Whilst). Lets not forget that there's only ONE scum out there and we need THREE to lynch. Aside of me, another townie must be wiling to vote. Since we can't atm conclude anything 100% from the thread, might as well see how players act today as well.

Xeras reaction to my case on Dicknose felt rather scummy tbh. So my vote stands for now.

And my vote would also be on Xeras at the moment if there wasn't part of me that still worries that the whilst might be the last scum.

@whilst, who do you suspect right now and why?

[I Am Innocent]

Guys, just read through and would like to make some comments, but I am heading out on the road with the family to my parent's house for the weekend (5+ hr drive). So most likely will be posting tomorrow morning from my parent's computer.

PS - Couple of thoughts to chew on:

Xeras is avoiding my question....either scum decided to not NK N2 (very unlikely right?) or they targeted Honest Abel. I keep trying to figure out why Honest Abel though and the only thing I can come it with is that he was one of the two main players (along with NS) pushing a dicknose wagon after the cavjj flop.

if I am scum that means dicknose is not scum, why not push his wagon D2 after the cavjj flop instead of my supposed teammate?

whilst, you were an easy target D2, yet I never took advantage of your wagon. nor DC who was another easy target. If I am scum, why not utilize these easy wagons vs just voting my supposed teammate?

And pushing hard against a very talkative player like HA D2 instead? Why would scum draw such attention like that?

again, why would I jump on the flop when the IC missed it and the other SE dead? why not wait until a doc or cop counterclaimed?

DC is right. One of you guys are wrong and I strongly suspect it is whilst since he could have easily sided with me and DC and won this game as scum by voting out town Xeras. So it has got to be scum Xeras and we are one townie away from winning this!

[I Am Innocent]

Yes, feel free to post the scum QT singer...(and thanks for a great job modding!!!)

First of all, I must apologize to cavjj, I just did not have the time to put into this endgame that I usually do. Usually in LyLo/MyLo, I go through the whole thread and post some pretty impressive analysis that is quite convincing from both town/scum angles. My undefeated record in MyLo/LyLo has come to an end as a result.

Instead of analyzing, I kept reiterating at endgame why I was not scum and DC finally saw through that. Good job.

Whilst you amazed me. You were my easy target for this game that I buddied up to and trusted to blindly follow me late game. Yet you did not blindly follow me and cost me the scum win, lol!

HA, you were the MVP. Not because you were always right, but because you posted like a mad machine and were a town leader. The early hammer D1 actually hurt us, because had I seen you lead town that much D1 the way you did D2, you would have been the lynch target N1. But you helping to create 60 pages made life too difficult for me to go post by post and produce my analysis, so kudos to you.

honestly, this was the group I would have picked for LyLo/MyLo, and the evidence for dicknose as scum was overwhelming. I thought I had a decent chance to win. Just got too busy / lazy to pull it all together.

Overall great participation and many newbies played a great game. Whilst, be more proactive though and vote a little more often in the future. dicknose, back up your posts with why your suspicious. cavjj, work on laying a bit more low D1, usually town will get themselves lynched D1 without scum having to force it.

As for my play, I always use meta both as town / scum.

Also at DC, your "winner post" was still accurate. From a town perspective, trying to force a vote on dicknose from cavjj D2 would make town feel uneasy D3. But something changed in that the two people who voted dicknose were now dead and confirmed town, so that extra information would lead town to believe that switch to dicknose D2 was legit and dicknose could therefore have been scum...

Also, be careful about thinking players that switch out are vanilla. We had two replacements this game, and one (NS) got a power role. Pretty good odds if you ask me...

Last thing, DC I would have loved if you claimed cop D4, cause NS said he was jailing you and you would have therefore gotten no results. More confusion = less confirmed town and good for me. I'm a big believer that town should not lie...it hurts way more than it helps.

Thanks again all and hope to see you all around when I am less busy (Novemberish?)!

[I Am Innocent]

We had a jailkeeper, which I knew because IAI

got no result N1

and I was certain we had no other PR's.

Wasn't it me who was blocked N1? Or was NS lying perhaps...?
If this is the case, then I can't believe IAI didn't figure out the JK is NS. Even I did.

This was actually confusing. I first got no result N1 which should have meant you were jailed by a JK (because I also submitted the NK and that went through so I was no jailed).

I communicated that in the thread secretly, and afterwards the mod told me DC was VT, which made me think that DC was not jailed. (Singer the first result appeared correct later on.)

So then I was unsure if we had a JK, but not could communicate that "correction" to my teammate, lol.

HA, I investigated NS N2, so it was actually very helpful that he came out D3, because had he not he would have been dead N3 and town would have had no confirmed innocents D4. I know it stunk for you, but I think NS did the right thing D3...

[I Am Innocent]

"I could say it was on N2 or whatever. And that I never attacked you in order to not get killed by you at night"

Still does not make sense since D3 we had 1 free mislynch and 1 scum left, so a cop with a scum investigation on D3 is a guaranteed win (no need to wait until D4...)

From the Role's Post:

"If the jailed player is the target of a Kill that action will not resolve. Any other actions (Investigate or Protect) will resolve."

Looks like I was wrong...

[I Am Innocent]

"Why me? I expected a protown role to target me. Not scum"

Newbie power players (esp cops) sometimes like the day to end quickly so they can get to their night powers. You fit that mold as someone jumping on every wagon early that was not your own...