Open 326: Pick Your Poison (Ende des Speils!)

[Auckmid]

I'm reading through the thread now, but I find it interesting that Overlord has joined the Glowball wagon even though this is the first accusation about her all game.
@Supreme Overlord: Would you concider yourself a Sheep?

[thunderwielder]

Um, the other question was yours and I don't remember what is was- if you wanted answered you need to ask it again, I'm not going through searching and quoting a question, I'm lazy.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't this one of the big reasons you got in a tizzy over Maruchan?

[Amrun]

I think not all of your case is playstyle, but a lot of it is just something I associate with glowball, having played with her a couple of times now. The first time I played with her, I keyed in on it too. I haven't seen too many things that concerned me except a couple of things I noted. One was her weak FoS on you. It was bad and it continues to be bad - but I can see an emotional town glowball doing this, too.

Also, it's totally unfair for you to ask glowball to do anything else pertaining to a Maruchan case. She made a huge one, whether or not you agree with it.

I would like to see a Saulres case as well, though.

[thunderwielder]

Because scumreads are only half of the game. Even if some people think your reads are useless - and I can name only one or two that do, namely thunderwielder - if you flip town, voila! Reads no longer useless.

I agree wholeheartedly with this. I would like ALL of your reads, Glow.

Also, it's totally unfair for you to ask glowball to do anything else pertaining to a Maruchan case. She made a huge one, whether or not you agree with it.

Ok, fair enough. But I was seeing if there was anything else that she had, since she seems to be quite passionate about it and I don't really understand why. That's why my last question wasn't rhetorical, but in earnest.
The other reason was to ask for a Saul case from her, which I don't think I've ever seen, but she's held on to since the first page. Then she's said, no Maruchan is scummier (which is valid because she's at least given reasons, regardless of whether or not I'm able to get on the same page), but she's still held onto that Saulres scum read--which I thought she had said previously she didn't find that scummy (which is where my initial argument with her stemmed from).

[Supreme Overlord]

Town reads only matter to scum.

Interesting that you didn't mention this back on page 8/9 when I was talking to RoboThor and Amrun about their town reads. Plus, the original question wasn't about town reads, it was about reads on specific players (Nobody Special and myself). It's not only the reads that are important, it's your reasoning behind how you arrived at those reads. If it's just 'rubbish, rubbish, rubbish; he's scum', that's giving us insight into your alignment.

I have scum reads MARUCHAN and SAULRES. Why do you need the town reads? Why aren't the scum reads good enough?

Because scumreads are only half of the game.

Not only this, but so far you've only given reads on two players. Disregarding your own alignment, that's only one quarter of the players in the game.

I'm reading through the thread now, but I find it interesting that Overlord has joined the Glowball wagon even though this is the first accusation about her all game.
@Supreme Overlord: Would you concider yourself a Sheep?

I would not. However, I would say that I'm able to be swayed by reasonable arguments. I found thunderweilder's arguments sensible, and with that added to glowball's lack of defence and refusal to provide reads, it sums up to a logical place to put my vote.
In #240 I mentioned 'uneasy feelings' about glowball; obviously not strong, but my vote hasn't come out of nowhere. That was also the first post where I asked her about refusing to give out reads.


Just a note on glowball's 'sensitivity'; I'm not planning to be swayed one way or another by emotion. Clear arguments are what I like to see and use.

[saulres]

@Saulres, could you convince me why Maruchan is a better lynch today than Glowball?

Probably not. Since I think they're both mafia, the main reason I'd rather see Maruchan go first is because of his posting style -- I think one of the reasons it's so hard to find active replacements for this game, or for the majority of current players to get caught up, is his endlessly long posts. Combine their length with their quantity and difficulty to follow due to the quote ladders (that's not the right term but I think you know what I mean) and I think Day 2 will go easier with him gone than with glowball.

My hesitation on moving my vote to glowball is because my play style is such that once I make up my mind, I want the game to progress. Since there were 5 votes on Maruchan and just the one on glowball, I felt (and still feel) it's more likely for him to be lynched today than her, so I don't want to delay that by bouncing my votes around. But if the pendulum swings the other way, my vote will swing with it.

[thunderwielder]

One more thing before I turn in for the night

I think not all of your case is playstyle, but a lot of it is just something I associate with glowball, having played with her a couple of times now. The first time I played with her, I keyed in on it too. I haven't seen too many things that concerned me except a couple of things I noted. One was her weak FoS on you. It was bad and it continues to be bad - but I can see an emotional town glowball doing this, too.

While I see the merit of this point, I would caution you from it. In my other game that

literally

just finished (one that I subbed into), one of the players made a similar point about Deity Kabuto, and him usually getting lynched the first day because of his playstyle and how it seemed scummy. We

just

lynched him, and it turns out he

was

scummy. But I also took this player's analysis at face value and trusted it until there was no other option BUT to lynch Deity, which we found out was the right option all along. So while I understand these feelings, I don't think I can give them too much weight. If you disagree that there hasn't been scummy behaviour going on, that's perfectly valid. And I also understand gut feelings and reads from previous games. But scummy behaviour needs to be treated as such, and not given a free pass because of previous scummy behaviour.

Also, unrelated (yet related), the beginning of Overlord's post interests me quite. I had forgotten the initial debate was not about town reads, it was just about giving reads on specific players--which has evolved into a situation where we're all starting to pity Glowball for not feeling secure enough to post her reads, or that they won't matter. I'm not sure how that got turned around on its head, but the proof is in the pudding.

[glowball]

I haven't answered thunder's case because I see nothing to answer for, he's interpreted my behavior as scummy and I cannot disagree with his playstyle or frame of mind. He's wrong and his case is garbage IMO, but I realize why he's come to those conclusion and that has to do with playstyle- he's obviously not a successful scumhunter because I find it very hard to see him as scum at this point.

I am not giving my reads on other players because they aren't necessary. The only people I am willing to lynch today are Saulres and Maruchan. That's it and deduce from that what you will.

[Amrun]

I haven't answered thunder's case because I see nothing to answer for, he's interpreted my behavior as scummy and I cannot disagree with his playstyle or frame of mind. He's wrong and his case is garbage IMO, but I realize why he's come to those conclusion and that has to do with playstyle-

he's obviously not a successful scumhunter because I find it very hard to see him as scum at this point.

I am not giving my reads on other players because they aren't necessary. The only people I am willing to lynch today are Saulres and Maruchan. That's it and deduce from that what you will.

That doesn't make sense.

[glowball]

I guess that does read a little backwards. I find it hard to see Thunder as scum, so he's obviously just bad at scumhunting. Which is what townies do and scum don't do that. Hopefully that's clearer. So there you go, another "read" just got to look closely

[Nobody Special]

I'm really sorry; still on more-or-less V/LA; reading thread but can't really get into it much.

When y'all stop arguing emotions and start working with facts, I'll be back. (Yes, I know there's been some facts. Few and far between, but they're there. Somewhere. )

[Xalxe]

Votecount 1.7

Maruchan (4)

: lane0168, saulres, Auckmid, glowball
saulres (1): NihilisticNinja
RoboThor (1): Nobody Special
lane0168 (1): Amrun
Nobody Special (1): RoboThor
glowball (2): thunderwielder, Supreme Overlord

Not Voting (2)

: kondi2424, Maruchan

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Deadline

: August 30, stupid ((expired on 2011-08-30 14:58:38))

kondi2424 and NhilisticNinja are being replaced. Tell your friends!

[Xalxe]

Hoppster replaces NihilisticNinja, and MrTrow replaces kondi2424. Please welcome them!

[saulres]

Yay! Welcome replacements!

[Hoppster]

So before deciding replacing in I speed-skimmed the thread, and I've got to say, one of the main factors in me replacing in was this post:

Alright, this is a wall hidden by spoilers for bullet points on why Maruchan is scummy...

Spoiler:

What she said, I am curious as to your lack of RVS participation. I would understand it if you had told us you dislike RVS and therefore refuse to participate or something, but you said nothing of the sort, and even was the first participator of RVS in your first game on-site.

Just curious because I find scum usually like to save their votes until they see the most likely-to-succeed bandwagon before hoping it. (then again, conservative town hold their votes too, so I am not saying your lack of one makes you scummy)

Piggy backs onto my question of Saulres, but then is basically distancing himself from it. This post unnecessary since I had already asked Saulres the question unless he was adding on for more pressure, BUT WAIT it's not pressure if you let them know you don't think it's scummy. Not to mention, he went as far as to check an ongoing game for Saulres' RVS meta, which he found contradictory but still distanced himself from it. So this is just really bad. It gives him "cred" because he was involved in the questioning, while he's distanced because he never said he found it "scummy".

Spoiler:

VOTE: MARUCHAN

Doesn't like it if people dont participate in RVS, and doesn't like it when people do participate, or start, RQS. Whether or not someone wants to spew questions, the conversation will start eventually. Probably in the wrong direction.

if you had READ my post before yours, I LOVE RQS, and have STARTED it myself in the past. I just know a particular player in this game absolutely hates it, and will make a case against anyone starting it, that will end in their eventual demise.

I like the vote though, keep em comin!

To be honest this whole post is bad because there is no way Maruchan would have gotten lynched SOLELY on Lane's RVS suspicion that was a weak vote anyway, but seeing Maruchan get what seems to me as worked up is suspicious. I get that he wanted to clear things up, but he seems rather adamant about getting his point across and showing Lane that they are wrong only to turn around and say he "likes" the vote and to keep them coming. This response isn't a town response in the fact that it isn't genuine. When I read this I immediately thought scum faking a lack of caring...badly.

Spoiler:

We can't keep this double standards! Either we have to say that Saulres caring if he appears scummy is a SCUM tell, in which case my lack of caring is a null or town tell. OR we have to say that Maruchan's lack of caring how he appears is a null or scum tell, in which case Saulres' caring is a TOWN tell.

Pick one, you can't have it both ways. It can't be scummy to care while being scummy to not care.

This theory he presented is wrong. He's basically pushing his opinion and theory as fact to discredit the accusations against himself AND Saulres. Stating that at least one of them has to have caring/not caring as a town tell. This just supports my theory of possible bussing earlier as it adds to Maruchan/Saulres scumbuddies.

Spoiler:

To maybe explain what I think about caring vs. non-caring:

If all the scum don't care, then they won't fight to stay alive, meaning they'll roll over and lose. So they have to care.
If all the town don't care, then they won't fight to stay alive, meaning they'll roll over and lose. So they have to care.

The way I see it, everyone who's playing for their win condition, at least in this setup, should care about if they're going to cause their side to lose by being seen as anything other than town. So caring is a nulltell, at least for me. And so is not caring, because it doesn't say what side you're on -- it just says what kind of player you are. One which is a detriment to their side.

Anyway that's how I see it.

UNVOTE
Vote: Marachun

because I'd rather play with people who are trying to win.

OMGUS OMGUS OMGUS OMGUS

oh wait, my vote is already on you.
So that would make YOURS the OMGUS. My bad.

Feeler and amplifier post. He quoted Saulres just to make a point about OMGUS(badly IMO) with the sarcasm and the capitalization he's just begging for people to notice Saulres instead of him.

Spoiler:

Yeah Page 4 doesn't need all these lengthy posts, it kind of makes me feel like scum are overloading to look like they have more content than they do. It's really useless to type all that much, not enough has happened. In fact walls at this point are drawing my attention more negatively than positively towards those players. Walls are to be used when necessary...not frivolously.

So its a bad thing if the game actually STARTS being a game on page for, rather than on page 10? Its bad for us to start actual content early? ... Why exactly?

This was posted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 11:43 pm (PDT)
It is now: Mon Aug 22, 2011 12:1 pm (PDT)

Maruchan didn't even notice that I didn't answer his question. This is only one of two I purposefully ignored. Maruchan isn't scum hunting- he's defending himself, buddying, and fluffing w/ a side of distraction. He obviously doesn't care about his answers because he never even noticed that I didn't answer, and if he did he just let it die.

SPOILERS: DOING IT WRONG

You need to know that.


I'll post actual stuff later today.

[thunderwielder]

I guess that does read a little backwards. I find it hard to see Thunder as scum, so he's obviously just bad at scumhunting. Which is what townies do and scum don't do that. Hopefully that's clearer. So there you go, another "read" just got to look closely

While I appreciate you now finding me as town, why is it that I'm no longer under a Finger of Suspicion from you? Where did that big change come from?

Or is it that you're hoping I'll back off if you stop suspecting me?

You still haven't quoted from before where I misrepresented you, which was your initial cause for suspicion against me.
You still haven't given us your case on Saulres.
You still haven't answered my previous question about Maruchan (or are you just purposefully avoiding that one too).
You still haven't responded to anything in my case about you (other than--it's weak, and just leaving it at that)
You still haven't given your reads on Nobody Special and Supreme Overlord (why do you automatically assume that they are town?--I'm getting this from your "I don't feel the need to give out town reads" statement).

I would like that you maybe address three of the above five points. Is that too much to ask for? You don't even have to answer all of them, just

do something

.



Also, welcome Hoppster and MrTrow. I look forward to your input on all that's happened thus far. Thanks for subbing in, guys!

[Amrun]

Oh, thank God, Hoppster and Trow. This makes me happy.

[thunderwielder]

You still haven't responded to anything in my case about you (other than--it's weak, and just leaving it at that)

I'll retract this partially, because you have responded, agreed that you can see where I'm coming from, but that it all falls down to playstyle. I'll change my question here to having you maybe elaborate and defend why my case is all playstyle, and none of it therefore has any value.

[Hoppster]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Nobody Special

^^^ good vote is

good

.



>>> No content (admittedly a lack of content could be attributed to V/LA but not a

complete absence

of content)

Okay, here's the deal: RoboThor is incredibly town, even though their read on me is completely wrong.

NihilisticNinja is probscum. Shouldn't be avoiding the thread. I assume he found out how hard it is to

appear

town and gave up.

SupremeOverlord is rather town.

Maruchan, howver.......

A question for Maruchan: Let's go back to your iso#29. Why is thunderweilder so very town? Do you not agree that scum could say the very same thing?

Amrun, as much as I hate to say it, is most likely town, also.

>>> RoboThor as a town-read... wait, who is he voting again?

Votecount 1.7

Maruchan (4)

: lane0168, saulres, Auckmid, glowball
saulres (1): NihilisticNinja

RoboThor (1): Nobody Special

>>> Only one scum-read

given

- and it's a flimsy reason that basically allows him to ignore everything that's been said in-thread - also no vote

>>> COMPLETELY AVOIDS giving a read on Maruchan (arguably it's implied, but why not just say it then?) - and by following up with a question, he can then use the answer to that question to justify Maruchan-town or Maruchan-scum later on without contradicting himself earlier

glowball:

At what point did you decide (in your head) that Maruchan was more worthy of a vote than Saulres?

Maruchan:

Scum-reads please (ordered if possible).

Yay! Welcome replacements!

Also, welcome Hoppster and MrTrow. I look forward to your input on all that's happened thus far. Thanks for subbing in, guys!

Oh, thank God, Hoppster and Trow. This makes me happy.

:')

[Nobody Special]

Oh, yeah.

Forgot to un-random-vote.

unvote

[Hoppster]

Isn't my slot probscum? Shouldn't you be voting for me?

[Nobody Special]

wtf is this i don't even

[Hoppster]

Okay, here's the deal: RoboThor is incredibly town, even though their read on me is completely wrong.

NihilisticNinja is probscum.

Shouldn't be avoiding the thread. I assume he found out how hard it is to

appear

town and gave up.

SupremeOverlord is rather town.

Maruchan, howver.......

A question for Maruchan: Let's go back to your iso#29. Why is thunderweilder so very town? Do you not agree that scum could say the very same thing?

Amrun, as much as I hate to say it, is most likely town, also.

Hoppster replaces NihilisticNinja

, and MrTrow replaces kondi2424. Please welcome them!

[Nobody Special]

Yeah, that. A lot has happened since then, still trying to wrap my head around this game.

[glowball]

I guess that does read a little backwards. I find it hard to see Thunder as scum, so he's obviously just bad at scumhunting. Which is what townies do and scum don't do that. Hopefully that's clearer. So there you go, another "read" just got to look closely

While I appreciate you now finding me as town, why is it that I'm no longer under a Finger of Suspicion from you? Where did that big change come from?

Or is it that you're hoping I'll back off if you stop suspecting me?

You still haven't quoted from before where I misrepresented you, which was your initial cause for suspicion against me.
You still haven't given us your case on Saulres.
You still haven't answered my previous question about Maruchan (or are you just purposefully avoiding that one too).
You still haven't responded to anything in my case about you (other than--it's weak, and just leaving it at that)
You still haven't given your reads on Nobody Special and Supreme Overlord (why do you automatically assume that they are town?--I'm getting this from your "I don't feel the need to give out town reads" statement).

I would like that you maybe address three of the above five points. Is that too much to ask for? You don't even have to answer all of them, just

do something

.



Also, welcome Hoppster and MrTrow. I look forward to your input on all that's happened thus far. Thanks for subbing in, guys!

As for your points, some of them have been addressed AND I never promised a case on Saulres I actually recall saying I don't think he deserved a formal case because his scumminess was obvious. The point is that I have addressed the case you made, maybe not to your liking but it's been addressed YOU OBVIOUSLY ARE NOT READING MY POSTS.