camn's temperamental - Mini 1232 - GAME OVER

[Sathoris]

Read #208 again for why I feel that way. Its not even close to being a slip. Thank you for your Sathoris buddy claim though.

Of all of the votes onto and unvotes off of BBmolla, Sathoris' is the worst.

I disagree, my vote caused BBMolla to claim and advance the discussion. I'm willing to trust that claim and test it out. Obviously the majority doesn't yet agree with you so why is my unvote a bad thing? I won't let my vote reach a lynch if we all aren't clear about it.

And you keep referencing 208, but you keep dismissing the fact about potential scum names, or the confirmation aspect of the namecop. It's not a great role no, but it's not useless.

Oh #6 of 208 is just plain wrong, yet you emphasis it as if it's your major point. You do know you first brought up your exceptional win condition when talking to Lurconis here. Why are shifting it to make it look like BBMolla has an exceptional win condition?

[Sathoris]

You're right that knowing someone's restriction doesn't mean anything about his rolename or ability. And you may be right that your rolename has nothing to do you with your PR. But you cannot confirm or deny that your rolename has nothing to do with your allignement unless you know that the scum name is as innocent sounding as the town names are.

Unless we know that I think it's worth the risk to leave BBmolla alive for one night to see what he can give us.

[kanyeknowsbest]

You don't think its in the interest of those with an exceptional win condition to force a PR to claim? You don't think that they would then be eager to get off of that wagon and attempt to control that PR's night action?

If you'd like to talk about #208, I feel that the list I gave is a very easy to follow breakdown of the logic that leads from point 1 to point 6. Please point out where in that list you find the flaw (Hint, you can't start with the conclusion.)

I'm not sure what you are trying to say about the post that you linked.

[kanyeknowsbest]

You're right that knowing someone's restriction doesn't mean anything about his rolename or ability. And you may be right that your rolename has nothing to do you with your PR. But you cannot confirm or deny that your rolename has nothing to do with your allignement unless you know that the scum name is as innocent sounding as the town names are.

Why have you not pushed for a mass name claim then if you believe it will out scum?

[Sathoris]

1. Our posting restriction is based on our role name.
2. Role powers are unrelated to our role name.
3. Some of our posting restrictions should be very obvious to other at this point.
4. Does that not imply, then, that given how we are encouraged to indirectly divulge this information that it should be not provide any benefit to either faction?
5. Given that,

how is a role name cop useful for either town or exceptional alignments?

6. HOW DOES LEAVING AN EXCEPTIONAL WIN CONDITION NAME COP ALIVE PROVIDE ANY BENEFIT TO TOWN?

1. Only slightly in my case. I feel mine is pretty difficult and the way I'm working it you wouldn't as easily call mine as you would yours, but it stands.
2. Plausible
3. No argument there
4. You're right. Someone's posting restriction won't reveal anything, but look back to my discussion with fishy about alignements.
5. You haven't once mentioned the relation of names to alignement. Which is precisely what the namecop is meant for. Unless we have a real cop who finds out people's allignement the rolecop could be this themed version of our regular cop. Think of a flavour cop, it's essentially the same.

But the big mystery is we don't know how the mafia are called. You seem deadset on the namecop being useless so I must assume you know the mafia have innocent sounding names (comment on this please)

6. I've reread the thread and I haven't found any shred of evidence that BBMolla has an exceptional win condition. The only time it is mentioned (in my link) is when you commented on Lurconis who justified his vote on me by using my restriction. You then (shrewdly if I might add) suggested what you did about him having an exceptional win condition.

Not BBmolla

. So why are you pinning the exceptional win condition on BBmolla?

You're right that knowing someone's restriction doesn't mean anything about his rolename or ability. And you may be right that your rolename has nothing to do you with your PR. But you cannot confirm or deny that your rolename has nothing to do with your allignement unless you know that the scum name is as innocent sounding as the town names are.

Why have you not pushed for a mass name claim then if you believe it will out scum?

Isn't it obvious. People lie. What stops scum from claiming something that fits their current posting style. Most are ambigious enough to pull it off. No we need the namecop to investigate them so they can't lie.

[kanyeknowsbest]

My stance until now has been that BBmolla has an exceptional win condition. Regardless of my opinion, I worded that as such due to people saying "Well sure he might have an exceptional win condition but we can make him work for us!" I can only assume that you also believed he had an exceptional win condition due to you placing him in a position to where he had to claim.

Isn't it obvious. People lie. What stops scum from claiming something that fits their current posting style. Most are ambigious enough to pull it off. No we need the namecop to investigate them so they can't lie.

Yes, so if we plan to use the name cop to catch scum lying, then you need to force them to lie about their name in the first place. This is the only situation in which I feel a name cop will be able to give us any information that relates to alignment, and only if he is town.

[BBmolla]

Me being a namecop only helps the town if I'm town.

If I'm scum, I could take advantage of my role in two ways.

A. I could "check" my scum friend and lie about it to make him look better or explain some unexplained/scummy actions.
B. I could "check" a town member, and get a false character name that makes them look scummy.

Considering I'm town, this shouldn't be a problem, but considering my alignment is unconfirmable, I'm probably better off lynched. Unless someone is suspcious of someone's character, in that case I could check it and be lynched tomorrow, confirming the report.

All in all, lynching me to confirm my town status is probably the best move in this situation.

Also, at the guy who said that me not being lynched today would cause a ML instead or whatever, there's still a possibility we could actually, oh I don't know, lynch the scum?

[kanyeknowsbest]

Please comment on the reactions to your claim.

[Sathoris]

My stance until now has been that BBmolla has an exceptional win condition. Regardless of my opinion, I worded that as such due to people saying "Well sure he might have an exceptional win condition but we can make him work for us!" I can only assume that you also believed he had an exceptional win condition due to you placing him in a position to where he had to claim.

You have no basis for saying BBMolla has an exceptional win condition, so why present it huge and bolded as fact in #208. Exceptional win condition is just fancy talk for scum win con, which just means you think he's scum. Which is fair enough, as you said I did put him on L-1 too. But don't present it as reason to lynch him. The matter of fact is:

He acted scummy and it got him to claim. I still think he's scummy too. He may well be scum, but I want to use his ability at least once to see what we get. We don't know enough to dismiss it as useless. It might be our only cop to find mafia in this themed game. I'm not willing to take the risk and lynch him.

He's acting more pro-town now saying the safest way would be to lynch him. I'm not sure he's appealing to any side in the debate because I don't think it will change anybody's mind. So we have a choice. I suggest people express their opinion about him in their next post.
1) Test his namecop on someone scummy and lynch someone else, or
2) Lynch him today and see what tomorrow brings.

Isn't it obvious. People lie. What stops scum from claiming something that fits their current posting style. Most are ambigious enough to pull it off. No we need the namecop to investigate them so they can't lie.

Yes, so if we plan to use the name cop to catch scum lying, then you need to force them to lie about their name in the first place. This is the only situation in which I feel a name cop will be able to give us any information that relates to alignment, and only if he is town.

We only force them to lie about their name if their name is not townish. If it is then the namecop is useless, which leads me to wonder why BB wouldn't just be a VT then. Or BB is lying about what else he can do and he's scum.

It just comes down to this: are you willing to lynch a cop variant who acted summy?

[Zang]

suppose, I never read the first post all that well and only now see the Failed the exam header. It is a bit confusing, but I remain convinced Fishy has no post 'restriction'. Perhaps my method proves to be unfounded, but his latest reply seals it for me.

He doesn't have a post restriction and arguing that scum also get a post 'restriction' to downplay the idea that no post 'restriction' is scum

Why do you think that fishy doesn't have a post restriction? I could be wrong but I assumed that scum also had them and even if fishy has one, it's not mandatory that he follows it.

Also, if scum don't have post restrictions then wouldn't it be obvious to identify them?

@Zang: It has to do with my character

Can you be more specific?

Even if I was scum, how would living an extra day benefit me at all?

Scum having an extra day benefits them a lot. If they have a power then they can use it for the benefit of the scum and they can talk with the other scum, giving their input on who to kill as well as what the strategy would be the next day.

Name cop is completely irrelevant and unrelated to alignment

Why do you assume that?

But it's a PR... why would camn give us a name cop just for lulz? That's like creating a cop with all the scum being godfathers

Many times, misleading or useless roles are put into a game such as a miller or godfather being in a game with no cop, which I have seen several times.

Why have you not pushed for a mass name claim then if you believe it will out scum?

There is no way of knowing whether it would or wouldn't but that does not mean you should assume that it wouldn't.

FoS: Kanye

I don't like his recent posts. Meanwhile, BBs posts seem to become more pro-town.

[Lurconis]

for BBMolla, consider this perspective-
1. Your town you check someone tonight tell us results tomorrow we
lynch you see your town and now have a confirmed townie or confirmed
scum based off your read.
2. Your town your NK’d tonight which confirms you town we have your
reads of today to go off of.
3. Your scum you give us a false read tomorrow we lynch you and your
results are now WIFOM.
4. Your scum or town you read whoever is NK’d so your results are null
at that point.
All 4 situations are better than lynching him today which would give
us no new info. I don’t think he should reveal who he is going to
check as if the target is town that allows scum to nk them and get a
free mislynch with BBMolla tomorrow.
-Copied from a word document, emailed to my phone and posted from
there so please forgive formatting errors as my work blocks the site
so I have to figure out workarounds.

[kanyeknowsbest]

My stance until now has been that BBmolla has an exceptional win condition. Regardless of my opinion, I worded that as such due to people saying "Well sure he might have an exceptional win condition but we can make him work for us!" I can only assume that you also believed he had an exceptional win condition due to you placing him in a position to where he had to claim.

You have no basis for saying BBMolla has an exceptional win condition, so why present it huge and bolded as fact in #208. Exceptional win condition is just fancy talk for scum win con, which just means you think he's scum. Which is fair enough, as you said I did put him on L-1 too. But don't present it as reason to lynch him. The matter of fact is:

He acted scummy and it got him to claim. I still think he's scummy too. He may well be scum, but I want to use his ability at least once to see what we get. We don't know enough to dismiss it as useless. It might be our only cop to find mafia in this themed game. I'm not willing to take the risk and lynch him.

He's acting more pro-town now saying the safest way would be to lynch him. I'm not sure he's appealing to any side in the debate because I don't think it will change anybody's mind. So we have a choice. I suggest people express their opinion about him in their next post.
1) Test his namecop on someone scummy and lynch someone else, or
2) Lynch him today and see what tomorrow brings.

Isn't it obvious. People lie. What stops scum from claiming something that fits their current posting style. Most are ambigious enough to pull it off. No we need the namecop to investigate them so they can't lie.

Yes, so if we plan to use the name cop to catch scum lying, then you need to force them to lie about their name in the first place. This is the only situation in which I feel a name cop will be able to give us any information that relates to alignment, and only if he is town.

We only force them to lie about their name if their name is not townish. If it is then the namecop is useless, which leads me to wonder why BB wouldn't just be a VT then. Or BB is lying about what else he can do and he's scum.

It just comes down to this: are you willing to lynch a cop variant who acted summy?

THIS ENTIRE POST. We are lynching Sathoris today kids.

[kanyeknowsbest]

for BBMolla, consider this perspective-
1. Your town you check someone tonight tell us results tomorrow we
lynch you see your town and now have a confirmed townie or confirmed
scum based off your read.
2. Your town your NK’d tonight which confirms you town we have your
reads of today to go off of.
3. Your scum you give us a false read tomorrow we lynch you and your
results are now WIFOM.
4. Your scum or town you read whoever is NK’d so your results are null
at that point.
All 4 situations are better than lynching him today which would give
us no new info. I don’t think he should reveal who he is going to
check as if the target is town that allows scum to nk them and get a
free mislynch with BBMolla tomorrow.
-Copied from a word document, emailed to my phone and posted from
there so please forgive formatting errors as my work blocks the site
so I have to figure out workarounds.

I've failed as a teacher for you to be able to make this post and not see what is wrong with it.

@Zang: You're not even reading anymore, are you? I've explained the things you are taking issue with several times.

[kanyeknowsbest]

The most distressing thing to me is that I know you can't ALL have exceptional win conditions, so some of you must actually believe these things you are saying.

[PeregrineV]

Johhog - Your votes have been on BBmolla and Zang so far. However, your Zang vote appears to be only for counterwagon purposes, when all prior conversations with Zang indicate little to no suspicion. Please rectify this situation immediately.
Parama- Thank you for all you do for your town. Please continue in this tradition and give your new and current thoughts on the claim, purpose and alignment possibilities of BBMolla.
Haylen- Please report to the thread and give us 110%.
BBmolla- It appears you have realized at this point that a name cop does not provide us with a complete dossier on your intentions in regards to this town. Please state the effect you think your role will provide in catching the enemy if you remain unlynched.
Chair- I am proud that you are able to express your feelings, and am ever so glad that you have feelings. However, in this man's army we would like some facts. Please grab a hanky and present the cases on your suspects.
kanyeknowsbest- I like your posting, son. Carry on.
PeregrineV- Now that my R&R is over, the crying may commence.
RedPanda- I can still see the pimples on your face, son. Your assignment is to investigate two other players, not Fishy or BBMolla, and report your findings pronto.
fishythefish- Good attitude, soldier. You'll go far, assuming you don't throw in with the enemy. Carry on.
Zang- You seem like you have potential, but have not yet been introduced to the decision making process. It is a process by which you make a decision. Here, we call that a vote.
Lurconis- Your assignment is similar to RedPanda. Locate two other players than Fishy and Sathoris, and present evidence as to their disposition towards the town.
twistedspoon- You are part of the RedPanda-Lurconis recon squad. Choose two players other than Zang and Parma, and prepare a report on your findings.
Sathoris- You strike me as the techinical type, with more undirected experience than some of the others. Please utilize this by presenting a list of players and who they have voted for, in the order that the vote took place.

[PeregrineV]

Now that the requisite "introductions" have been made, time to update current events.

@Assignments- You may continue to exercise your individual initiative when completing your assignments, but let's keep the focus on locating and eliminating the spies.

@Name cop- Sathoris, you seem to have indicated that you think BBMolla to be town based on his name finding ability. Frankly, I am skeptical of this plan without further contigneices being presented by your self. You have the knowledge of both your own role name and that of BBMolla. With only that information, how can you reach the conclusion of name cop being a town power role?

@BBMolla's response- Your self-sacrificing attitude does not help your fellows. You ain't dead yet.

[Sathoris]

Just because we have two different philosphies doesn't make one of us scum and the other town, Kanye. Stop trying to make me your adversary. Convince me of your take on things as you have been instructed to and I shall listen. All I want is to look at every option we have. Present my case to as many people that want to listen and try to work towards an outcome that benefits the majority.

I wish to do so without making enemies or resort to nasty tactics. I consider myself a tactful person so I view our issues from the perspective of others, please do the same.

And PV, I shan't do thou bidding when it's a useless task on D1. Ask me again a few days later if I'm still alive.

[Zang]

Kanye- Please point out where you have already responded to these issues.

Peregine- I will vote someone when I think they are scum.

[PeregrineV]

Almost forgot the most important part.

Unvote.

FoS: BBMolla

I have yet to see evidence that your role is town-aligned. OTOH, I am loathe to toss aside a potentially valuable weapon. Assuming that that value can be positively identified.
I am really up in the air about your lynch, so will continue to hear evidence for and against you.

Vote: Chair

There is a time for gut, and a time for action. Gut time is over.

@Sathoris-

Then, if you could be so kind to answer my question about your certainty about BBMolla.

[kanyeknowsbest]

My goal is no longer to convince you of anything Sathoris. My goal is to see you have a date with some rope.

[kanyeknowsbest]

That's a good vote Peregrine, but not really for today. Maybe you should try seeing how it would feel on Sathoris?

[Sathoris]

A certain amount of good faith has to be present of course, but BBmolla's name is that of a profession. As is mine. I remain engulfed in the idea that scum have not so innocent sounding names. They may well have fake claims, but I believe the namecop can still identify their true nature.

I can provide no contingencies as you very well know. I have said what I thought before so you already have all the information. And I never stated I fully believe him to be town and truthful. Just that lynching him today could be wasteful.

On a different note, well placed vote on chair. I am beginning to worry we're a bunch of townies arguing while scum sit back.

[Sathoris]

My goal is no longer to convince you of anything Sathoris. My goal is to see you have a date with some rope.

I see, but lynching me would mean you'd be following my plan. The same plan you so opposed and decided to vote me for.

[Fishythefish]

for BBMolla, consider this perspective-
1. Your town you check someone tonight tell us results tomorrow we
lynch you see your town and now have a confirmed townie or confirmed
scum based off your read.
2. Your town your NK’d tonight which confirms you town we have your
reads of today to go off of.
3. Your scum you give us a false read tomorrow we lynch you and your
results are now WIFOM.
4. Your scum or town you read whoever is NK’d so your results are null
at that point.
All 4 situations are better than lynching him today which would give
us no new info. I don’t think he should reveal who he is going to
check as if the target is town that allows scum to nk them and get a
free mislynch with BBMolla tomorrow.
-Copied from a word document, emailed to my phone and posted from
there so please forgive formatting errors as my work blocks the site
so I have to figure out workarounds.

No, no, no, no, no, no, no. If BB is scum, lynching him means there are fewer scum for us to deal with. Lynching someone who isn't BB probably won't give us fewer scum to deal with. If BB is scum, lynching him is emphatically the right move - leaving him alive so he can give us a report that won't help us is madness. BB's claim only matters in so far as it tells us anything about his alignment.

If you think that namecop is a highly unlikely scum role (which to me is a bizarre thing to think), then it's fair enough to want to let BB live. But letting him live to get a report is a complete red herring - it's just deferring his lynch to get find out some probably uninteresting information.

Also, at the guy who said that me not being lynched today would cause a ML instead or whatever, there's still a possibility we could actually, oh I don't know, lynch the scum?

Not sure if this was me. But if it was, what I mean is that if we think you are the most likely scum, you not being lynched today is more likely to cause a mislynch. That is, just the same reason you always lynch the scummiest player.

Speaking of you and scumminess, before all this claiming nonsense kicked off I said I was prepared to vote for you here, because I thought what you said about doublethink was very implausible. Do you have any response to that?

[kanyeknowsbest]

My goal is no longer to convince you of anything Sathoris. My goal is to see you have a date with some rope.

I see, but lynching me would mean you'd be following my plan. The same plan you so opposed and decided to vote me for.

You mean leaving BBmolla alive? Yeah, I'm okay with that for now. Hint: its not because he claimed a worthless PR.