camn's temperamental - Mini 1232 - GAME OVER

[Haylen]

If I was on Neptune, I'd only be a few hours late. Do you have any idea for difficult it is to post after not sleeping for 48 hrs?

By the way, just because somebody claims a power role, it doesn't instantly make that person town.

I'm pretty sure Peregrin is town at the moment as is Fishy. Both scumhunting and their cases are well reasoned.

I'm noticing that Chair appears to be defending himself more than he is scumhunting which makes him look like he has a scum's state of mind. Scum tend to think 'oh im being attacked. Defend, defend, defend.' Whereas town usually think 'Aww crap. Catch the real scum but it doesn't matter if I die.' ect.

How do you know scum can daytalk dying the confirmation stage? I read Camn's example role PM carefully: "During the NIGHT cycle ONLY, you may talk with your fellow Mafia". Confirmation stage isn't a night cycle.

Bad attack. Anyone who isn't a newbie pretty much presumes scum can talk during confirmations. (Correct? Or am I just all newbified?) Other than that, Sath seems town to me.

I'm confused, a rolecop isn't the same as a flavor cop, is it?

Johhog is scummy for me. During his iso, I could find very little evidence of scumhunting and if he is, he isn't providing any evidence for his reads.

Lurc seems neutral to town. Some of the stuff he says isn't very indepth. He looks like he's trying to scumhunt but just isn't being very effective at it.

Update on more of my reads tomorrow.

[Johhog]

Nonono, why don't you guys listen to me? It's intentional, I know that I don't provide any evidence for my reads.

[Zang]

Already answered your first question a few pages back in the debate. You dragged this back out so you can do the dirty work. And you answered your last question yourself in the previous sentence.

I already acknoledged I was wrong, no point rehashing old news. And you can tell me all you want to answer your question, but next time I will just ignore useless questions like these.

I was talking about the second question but I didn't remember you acknowledging that you were wrong.

Same.

Is that all you have to contribute?

Vote: Kanyeknowsbest

And I'm not saying it is; I'm saying that doublethink was the word or concept that BB was looking for to express his thoughts on whatever it was.

I sort of understand what he meant. It's just that doublethink doesn't really have anything to do with it and it seems nearly impossible to use doublethink in mafia especially if he acknowledges that he is using it.

I'm probably just taking the definition to literally though.

By the way, just because somebody claims a power role, it doesn't instantly make that person town.

But the person never did anything to be considered scum, by me at least.

[camn]

deadline approacheth!!

Parama

- 1

( BBmolla )

BBmolla

- 2

( Parama RedPanda )

Chair

- 3

( Haylen PeregrineV fishythefish )

kanyeknowsbest

- 1

( Zang )

RedPanda

- 1

( Lurconis )

Zang

- 2

( twistedspoon Johhog )

Lurconis

- 1

( Chair )

Sathoris

- 1

( kanyeknowsbest )

NOT VOTING:

( Sathoris )

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.
Deadline is

WED, SEPTEMBER 14th

, 9am MY TIME.. . Or whenever I get around to it.

[Lurconis]

Unvote RedPanda

I see what you mean about the connection I don't 100% agree with it but I see where you are coming from.

I really don't have any super stong scum reads at this time I'm going to reread tomorrow and will post reads and a vote then.

[Chair]

So I'm going to focus on this game for a bit. This goes to the bottom of page 10 (reads are going to come after I'm done with the readthrough):

I see three pathways from the current point.

A.

I get lynched today, preventing other PRs to be outed and confirming my town status.

B.

You tell me who to check, I get a report for you, then I be lynched to confirm my town status.

C.

You keep me alive.

I think the most logical course of action is B. However, this is dependent on whether the town believes characters are relevent to roles or not. Otherwise probably A would benefit us the most in this situation.
My preferred would be C of course, but I can understand the current circumstance from your point of view and can understand why that's not a plausible path.

There's just one issue with this. There's no inherent reason that you'd out your report unless it was useful.

However, certain aspects of BB's posting have to a large extent convinced me he's town. This is a great example of that: what he's doing makes sense with him as town, partially because it makes very little sense with him as one of the mafia. Someone talked about surviving another day being good for scum. Why, though, would scum not want to survive more than a day? BB is acting like he wants to do what is best for the town - there's little scum motivation behind his attitude.

His essential resignation to death, though obviously deplorable for reasons of it being bad for whatever side he's on, indicates that he's on our side. Sure, it could just be a ruse, but why should we assume that it is? If he appears genuine - and I believe that he does - he should be considered as town. The number one goal of the mafia is to survive - and at that point, if BB has resigned himself to death tomorrow at the latest, survival is not his number one priority.

You guys are really letting me down right now. I thought that I taught you better than this. Consider the following:

1. Our posting restriction is based on our role name.
2. Role powers are unrelated to our role name.
3. Some of our posting restrictions should be very obvious to other at this point.
4. Does that not imply, then, that given how we are encouraged to indirectly divulge this information that it should be not provide any benefit to either faction?
5. Given that,

how is a role name cop useful for either town or exceptional alignments?

6. HOW DOES LEAVING AN EXCEPTIONAL WIN CONDITION NAME COP ALIVE PROVIDE ANY BENEFIT TO TOWN?

Until I see something that explains how BBmolla is more likely to be town now, there is no reason to leave him alive.

1, 2, 3, 4, 5, all granted - but your conclusion's a bit odd. You're making an assumption that "exceptional win condition" players have normal-sounding role names. Why would you assume this based on only your own name! It doesn't make sense. I agree that a name cop has almost no utility to the bad guys - but what IF those bad guys were... y'know... given names that sound like bad guys!

More than that, you seem to be implying that a name cop has absolutely no utility whatsoever to either alignment And yet, you then go on to talk about how it having no utility to town doesn't make it unlikely. What about if it's a scum role - you know, like you've been saying it is. Why would there be a random, not-useful mafia namecop?

Yes, a name cop is benefecial to the town as it can confirm other townies and perhaps find the unsavouray names of scum. I already it's less likely to be a scum role (unless he lies about the full power of his role) because a name of someone doesn't tell you as much as it would on the town side. It's a town favoured role.

No. Wrong.

Namecopping does not say anything about the target's alignment. Even if it did, if he has an exceptional win condition he is not obligated to be truthful. Name cop is completely irrelevant and unrelated to alignment.

The only use it can have is catching someone lying about their name. I see zero reason for anyone to do this and I do not believe that students with an exceptional win condition will have a name that reflects that, given how we are encouraged to indirectly claim our name via the posting restriction.

Once again - you seem to take it as axiomatic that all rolenames are not indicative of alignment. But what if

some

rolenames are? Say, what if one mafia member has the role name "villain" or something similar? The assumption that this is false - and therefore that a name cop has absolutely zero utility - is baseless.

Read #208 again for why I feel that way. Its not even close to being a slip. Thank you for your Sathoris buddy claim though.

Of all of the votes onto and unvotes off of BBmolla, Sathoris' is the worst.

208 gives no proof, nor evidence, nor reasoning as to why the scum have to have similar names to the town.

Me being a namecop only helps the town if I'm town.

If I'm scum, I could take advantage of my role in two ways.

A. I could "check" my scum friend and lie about it to make him look better or explain some unexplained/scummy actions.
B. I could "check" a town member, and get a false character name that makes them look scummy.

Considering I'm town, this shouldn't be a problem, but considering my alignment is unconfirmable, I'm probably better off lynched. Unless someone is suspcious of someone's character, in that case I could check it and be lynched tomorrow, confirming the report.

Stop giving in and saying that you being lynched is the best course of action.

[Chair]

9. No, no, no, no, no. You also need to look at whether he is scum. If he is scum, it's much worse to lynch him tomorrow than today. Assuming BB is the scummiest player, we have to decide whether the tradeoff of extra info is worth lynching someone we think is less likely to be scum. For me, the extra info here really isn't that important - it's not exactly a massively powerful role - and so I think we should lynch him.

I agree that we need to look at his alignment irrespective of his role, but you're really exaggerating how much worse it is to lynch him tomorrow rather than today.

Let's do some math. Assume BB is scum. Lets also ignore any benefits that he gains from his one namecop, since they're likely to be minimal since role name doesn't necessarily reflect abilities.
Let's also, for simplicity, assume a 10:3 setup and one kill tonight.
If we lynch him today: that's a scumlynch today and it'll be 2:9 tomorrow.
If we lynch him tomorrow: it's a lynch at essentially 10:2 (since bb-scum wouldn't be a candidate) followed by a scumlynch tomorrow.
So the difference between today and tomorrow is the difference between 2/11 and 2/12 - that isn't even 2% better odds of hitting scum with the non-BB-targeting lynch. Why, then, is it such a tragedy if we lynch him tomorrow and not today?

(keep in mind: this is all assuming that BB is scum, which I don't think is the case)

[Parama]

prodvoid

I don't have any motivation to scumhunt when town's letting BB ride solely on his claim. Hmm.

[Chair]

prodvoid

I don't have any motivation to scumhunt when town's letting BB ride solely on his claim. Hmm.

so yeah read my post two posts ago
-implosion

[Chair]

@PARAMA:

Parama: would you say that you, as town, often wind up tunneling this early? And when I say tunneling, I don't mean having a strong scumread, I mean the extent of tunneling that you're doing with BB right now.

Third time asking.

[Parama]

you're asking me
to self meta

you realize that's not happening

[kanyeknowsbest]

chair, i believe that scum role names will not sound inherently scummy based on my own role name, those that have been revealed either directly or indirectly, and the fact that we are ENCOURAGED BY THE MODERATOR to indirectly share them by adhering to a posting restriction.

[kanyeknowsbest]

Woops, forgot my PR.

[kanyeknowsbest]

Also I'm pretty much in the same boat as you Parama. Its tough for me to actually put any more effort into this game after failing to convince this town of something that I think should be a no brainer.

[Chair]

chair, i believe that scum role names will not sound inherently scummy based on my own role name, those that have been revealed either directly or indirectly, and the fact that we are ENCOURAGED BY THE MODERATOR to indirectly share them by adhering to a posting restriction.

I guess I'd ask what you can possibly infer about scum rolenames from your rolename, but I guess that question can come once we claim rolenames.

As for encouragement by the mod to share our names - there's such a thing as a fakeclaim.

But I guess I can accept it for now... which still begs the question of what use a name cop would have. I really doubt that it was put in the game for 'lolz' - so yeah. it could be that there are false positives, or false negatives, or other nerfings - but right now, the best thing to do is probably ignore the claim and focus on other aspects of BB's play.

Which, again, convince me that he's town.

-implosion

[Chair]

Post 257 has unanswered questions to Haylen and Redpanda.

Anyway - reads with explanations will come tomorrow, but for now:

prime suspect right now is Parama. In short, his tunnel on BB. It gives him an active excuse to ignore others for today, and unwillingness to bulge does not indicate a town mindset.

I'm also wary of Haylen and TS. Misder's wary of Sathorsis, I still think he's town. So we'll figure that out later.

Unvote, Vote: Parama

[Parama]

Tunneling on scum is the most friggin' protown thing I can do atm.

[kanyeknowsbest]

A scum power role that is useless is also known by the name of "goon." Consider this.

[Chair]

A scum power role that is useless is also known by the name of "goon." Consider this.

Nah. Goon and mafioso are just different names for vanilla mafia, like townsperson or townie or innocent townsperson (etc, etc) are names for a vanilla townie.
-implosion

[kanyeknowsbest]

Yes. And a power role that has no use in the game given to a player with an exceptional win condition would essentially be a vanilla mafia member. So arguments that state: "A player with an exceptional win condition can not have a useless role" are flawed.

[Zang]

FoS: Parama

Why is BB scum?

[Lurconis]

I can not understand how anyone who isn't scum can say with such certainty that role names don't indicate scumminess and acknowledge that BB probably wasn't lying about his role.

Mafia Goon is vanilla mafia like chair said.

VOTE: Kanyeknowsbest

[kanyeknowsbest]

Lurconis is your role name "Newbie Town?" That's your PR right? Because I don't really think you have an exceptional win condition and I can't think of any other explanation.

[Chair]

SO. Peregrinev, fishy, redpanda, sathorsis, twistedspoon, and bbmolla all haven't posted in over two days. Let's pick it up!

Formal case on Parama:

Neither of these have any merit if you don't back them up.
Also why exactly are you voting twisted? Just for the sake of wagonning? :/

yes now help me drive this mislynch

First quote: weak criticism of us for voting without a reason for the sake of wagoning. And yet, after we wagoned Parama with an

explicit

lack of a reason, he started calling us town! It's at best cognitive dissonance; when we wagon once, he needs to ask us about it; yet when we wagon even more blatantly a second time, he doesn't even ask about it and jumps to a conclusion that we're town! At worst, it's a contradiction.

Of course, this is just a relatively minor point; the main reason that we suspect Parama is his push on BBMolla.

I say I *may* change my mind, which doesn't mean I will, and I usually don't. There is *always* the possibility that I might, though.

Post 112 is a wall of attacks on BB.

Scum have a tendency of not being pro-town in their actions, regardless of how they look. Yes I am biased, but that's because I think you're scum. I'm looking for the scum motivation in your posts, not the town motivation.

Now, there are a few key things to note about the most important thing about Parama's BB push: the

way

that he's pushing.

He's tunneling to the point where, essentially, he's giving himself an excuse to push on BB no matter what happens - more than that, he

says

that he still has a chance of changing his mind when realistically, there's no way he's going to. This is why I asked him the question about selfmeta - if he winds up tunneling in this way, a way that basically gives him a "free pass" through day one, frequently as town, then I'd have no issue with it. But if he doesn't do it frequently, then it's scummy because of how it lets him continue this push no matter what happens.

In fact - BEYOND ALL OF THIS, look at post 307:

I don't have any motivation to scumhunt when town's letting BB ride solely on his claim. Hmm.

First of all, he's

actively giving himself a free pass through the day!

Second of all, perhaps even more importantly, he's ignoring and misrepresenting those that are calling BB town - some might be saying his claim makes him town, but that isn't the only reason we see him as town, and he isn't replying to our other reasons.

If he is town and doesn't have motivation to scumhunt, he SHOULD have motivation to convince

others

that BB is scum when people are calling him town! If he's scum, he has no need to do this. If he's town, he should be trying to convince everyone of his BB scumread, which he's apparently so convinced of himself.

The way in which he pushes on BB has enormous scum motivation - again, a free pass. And it has absolutely no town motivation. Sure, he's said x and y about why BB is scum - but if he's town, he should be concerned about the dissolving of the BB wagon. He shows no such dismay, not even a bit of caring.

Frankly, nothing in the case itself really jumps out at me as being especially scummy. I also don't find the case convincing. But the way in which he applies it is a scum method.

[Parama]

Neither of these have any merit if you don't back them up.
Also why exactly are you voting twisted? Just for the sake of wagonning? :/

yes now help me drive this mislynch

First quote: weak criticism of us for voting without a reason for the sake of wagoning. And yet, after we wagoned Parama with an

explicit

lack of a reason, he started calling us town! It's at best cognitive dissonance; when we wagon once, he needs to ask us about it; yet when we wagon even more blatantly a second time, he doesn't even ask about it and jumps to a conclusion that we're town! At worst, it's a contradiction.

I always consider a vote on scum to be a town-move, especially one that doesn't try to over-justify it like yours did. I am sad to learn that you didn't believe in your vote when you made it.

Of course, this is just a relatively minor point; the main reason that we suspect Parama is his push on BBMolla.

Trust me, you aren't getting the full story no matter what you may think.

I say I *may* change my mind, which doesn't mean I will, and I usually don't. There is *always* the possibility that I might, though.

Post 112 is a wall of attacks on BB.

And is there a problem with that? Is it scummy to attack another player?

Scum have a tendency of not being pro-town in their actions, regardless of how they look. Yes I am biased, but that's because I think you're scum. I'm looking for the scum motivation in your posts, not the town motivation.

Now, there are a few key things to note about the most important thing about Parama's BB push: the

way

that he's pushing.

He's tunneling to the point where, essentially, he's giving himself an excuse to push on BB no matter what happens - more than that, he

says

that he still has a chance of changing his mind when realistically, there's no way he's going to. This is why I asked him the question about selfmeta - if he winds up tunneling in this way, a way that basically gives him a "free pass" through day one, frequently as town, then I'd have no issue with it. But if he doesn't do it frequently, then it's scummy because of how it lets him continue this push no matter what happens.

bluh bluh parama is tunneling ma

In fact - BEYOND ALL OF THIS, look at post 307:

I don't have any motivation to scumhunt when town's letting BB ride solely on his claim. Hmm.

First of all, he's

actively giving himself a free pass through the day!

Second of all, perhaps even more importantly, he's ignoring and misrepresenting those that are calling BB town - some might be saying his claim makes him town, but that isn't the only reason we see him as town, and he isn't replying to our other reasons.

The whole thing turned around at his claim. The claim was what dissolved the wagon. That's the real shame here.

If he is town and doesn't have motivation to scumhunt, he SHOULD have motivation to convince

others

that BB is scum when people are calling him town! If he's scum, he has no need to do this. If he's town, he should be trying to convince everyone of his BB scumread, which he's apparently so convinced of himself.

I have no motivation to scumhunt TODAY because I have already caught scum.

The way in which he pushes on BB has enormous scum motivation - again, a free pass. And it has absolutely no town motivation. Sure, he's said x and y about why BB is scum - but if he's town, he should be concerned about the dissolving of the BB wagon. He shows no such dismay, not even a bit of caring.

Frankly, nothing in the case itself really jumps out at me as being especially scummy. I also don't find the case convincing. But the way in which he applies it is a scum method.

1. the town motivation is that I am 100% sure that BBMolla is scum. there are no if's and but's about it.
2. why did you vote BB in the first place if you don't find the case convincing? Just wondering. The case hasn't really changed since then so.