Mafia 48: Himalayan Mafia - Game over!

[neongrey]

If nothing else, I'm somewhat loathe to gang up on someone who is unable to post...

[Fuldu]

Errr, Sparrow's not the

recruit

... nothing says he can't be one of the original Asian Mafia, after all.

The last game I said this in, I was wrong, but I stand by the argument that players who use the official name of the mafia on Day One instead of referring to them generically are more likely to be scum.

That should be a lynch. Assuming this isn't an April Fool's joke...Unvote: Mastermind of Sin, Vote: tidus of quittingland.

Voting after the hammer has already dropped, expressing doubts about the veracity of the scum claim, and especially venting about quitting all point to scum, to me.

vote: Mr. Flay

[Mr. Flay]

Errr, Sparrow's not the

recruit

... nothing says he can't be one of the original Asian Mafia, after all.

The last game I said this in, I was wrong, but I stand by the argument that players who use the official name of the mafia on Day One instead of referring to them generically are more likely to be scum.

As Fritzler said, "Reading is scummy". It says in the very first post of the thread what the role PMs say...

That should be a lynch. Assuming this isn't an April Fool's joke...Unvote: Mastermind of Sin, Vote: tidus of quittingland.

Voting after the hammer has already dropped, expressing doubts about the veracity of the scum claim, and especially venting about quitting all point to scum, to me.

As you might recall, JEEP briefly screwed up the threads on April Fool's Day. I did a manual count and it looked like tidus had 11/12 needed when I voted. Later after the count was fixed I think I ended up being 13th, and Norinel opted not to change my vote in the final tally. I can't prove that, of course, since I didn't take a screen capture, but that's what happened on my end. It really did seem bizarrely easy to catch a scum on D1 of a Mountainous game, is all...

[Mr. Flay]

Should we just replace MoS, since he's (once again) unable to contribute?

[Fuldu]

Errr, Sparrow's not the

recruit

... nothing says he can't be one of the original Asian Mafia, after all.

The last game I said this in, I was wrong, but I stand by the argument that players who use the official name of the mafia on Day One instead of referring to them generically are more likely to be scum.

As Fritzler said, "Reading is scummy". It says in the very first post of the thread what the role PMs say...

It has nothing to do with whether you were aware of that information. I had read it and was aware of it, so it's not like your use of the phrase "Asian Mafia" came as an enormous surprise to me.

It's a question of the psychology of who would be more likely to actually use the phrase in a post. People who are members of the group have internalized that description, and so are more likely to use it externally. People who aren't members of the group are (if, as you've pointed out, they've read at all carefully) aware of the name of the group, but are more likely to think of that group generically as "scum" than specifically as "the Asian Mafia." It doesn't matter to them one way or the other what the group is called - the important fact is just that they're the bad guy who must be done away with.

That should be a lynch. Assuming this isn't an April Fool's joke...Unvote: Mastermind of Sin, Vote: tidus of quittingland.

Voting after the hammer has already dropped, expressing doubts about the veracity of the scum claim, and especially venting about quitting all point to scum, to me.

As you might recall, JEEP briefly screwed up the threads on April Fool's Day. I did a manual count and it looked like tidus had 11/12 needed when I voted. Later after the count was fixed I think I ended up being 13th, and Norinel opted not to change my vote in the final tally. I can't prove that, of course, since I didn't take a screen capture, but that's what happened on my end. It really did seem bizarrely easy to catch a scum on D1 of a Mountainous game, is all...

I don't recall the threads ever being screwed up on April Fool's Day, just the avatars and user-related information (not including usernames). But that's less of a vital point here and you're right in saying that it's an unprovable issue. In general, it gives the impression that you're trying to appear in agreement with the lynch without having actually wanted it.

And in this particular situation, I extend that suspicion back through everyone who voted for him after he admitted to being scum. Once someone's taken that step, it's hard to really clear anyone based on their vote simply because they helped lynch scum. It's just that your after-the-fact vote looks a little forced in a "Damnit, that lynch went suddenly and I wasn't on it. I'd better make it look like I wanted to be" sort of way.

But for my main point, here again consider the mentality of a person who complains (even just a bit passive-aggressively) about tidus' giving up and admitting to being scum. I'm not saying that there's no reason a pro-town player might be upset about that. It makes the game less fun when other players give up.

For a pro-town player in this situation, that's going to be somewhat mediated by the fact that it's still early in the game, meaning that there's still a ways to go for the win. And, since we've lynched one scum, we have a bit more of a buffer to work with and additional information to build off of.

On the other hand, for scum, the annoyance of tidus being a poor sport is compounded by the fact that it's made scum's game that much more difficult. And so, they have greater reason to feel slighted by his actions, and therefore more of an emotional disposition toward complaining about it.

So, when someone complains about tidus quitting, I'm more inclined to think of them as likely to be scum. And in this case, that meant you. In then reading back over your posts, I came across the Asian Mafia comment, which I had missed yesterday, so I chose to include that. By my main argument is on the psychology of being annoyed enough at tidus to type "tidus_of_quittingland."

[Yosarian2]

I actually thought I was putting the hammer on tidus yesterday, but it looks like my vote switch didn't count. The fact that he cracked so easily could mean we're dealing with an overall newbish group of scum; that of course would increase the likelihood of an experienced player being recruited.

No vote yet.

Well, Tidus was clearly a newbie, but how does the way he broke under pressure tell us anything about the characteristics of the rest of the scum group?

[Fritzler]

Should we just replace MoS, since he's (once again) unable to contribute?

i was talking with him, and now he's able to post through the mithmojo subdomain

[Fuldu]

Well, Tidus was clearly a newbie, but how does the way he broke under pressure tell us anything about the characteristics of the rest of the scum group?

I don't think it tells us much of anything. They might all be newbies. The others might be experienced, but not the sorts that give a bunch of advice on how to play scum effectively. Or tidus might just not have been the sort to ask for that advice, or to have used it effectively. My first time playing scum, I was teamed with Leonidas (later replaced by Dragon Phoenix) and bloojay (replaced by Captain Blicero). I asked all of them for advice, most of which was quite good, but still ended up making the fairly elementary error of trying so hard to keep the town from lynching me that I made an excellent night target for the other scum team.

[Yosarian2]

Well, Tidus was clearly a newbie, but how does the way he broke under pressure tell us anything about the characteristics of the rest of the scum group?

I don't think it tells us much of anything. They might all be newbies. The others might be experienced, but not the sorts that give a bunch of advice on how to play scum effectively. Or tidus might just not have been the sort to ask for that advice, or to have used it effectively. My first time playing scum, I was teamed with Leonidas (later replaced by Dragon Phoenix) and bloojay (replaced by Captain Blicero). I asked all of them for advice, most of which was quite good, but still ended up making the fairly elementary error of trying so hard to keep the town from lynching me that I made an excellent night target for the other scum team.

Right. Especally as, based on the mafia PM in the mod post, the mafia can't talk during the day; and on a night zero when the scum can't kill, they're not likely to talk much anyway.

I just want to understand Mr. Flay's logic here; it bothers me a little when the most experenced player in the game tries to imply that the scum are probably all new players, so I would like him to explain his logic here.

[RandomActs]

I just want to understand Mr. Flay's logic here; it bothers me a little when the most experenced player in the game tries to imply that the scum are probably all new players, so I would like him to explain his logic here.

You're being far too diplomatic, Yos. You know very well why he might say this. If Flay turns out to be scum, WIFOM says the majority of the remaining mafia are experienced players.

[Mastermind of Sin]

yeah I'm here, hopefully I'll find time to post tonight

[Dead Rikimaru]

I must say that I still think TheCessPit has a higher chance of being scum than Mastermind of Sin.

Not only by what Hezlucky has said about post 100 but also because the relation beween Tidus and CP was much more friendly. (Unless MoS saw Tidus as dead weight and decided to invest heavily against him to look pro-town)

In a strange coincidence, by the time CP "misunderstood" the meaning of TSAGod words the only person who understood the same way as CP (while Fuldu was trying to explain the right meaning) was Tidus

vote: TheCesspit

[Mr. Flay]

It has nothing to do with whether you were aware of that information. I had read it and was aware of it, so it's not like your use of the phrase "Asian Mafia" came as an enormous surprise to me.

It's a question of the psychology of who would be more likely to actually use the phrase in a post. People who are members of the group have internalized that description, and so are more likely to use it externally. People who aren't members of the group are (if, as you've pointed out, they've read at all carefully) aware of the name of the group, but are more likely to think of that group generically as "scum" than specifically as "the Asian Mafia." It doesn't matter to them one way or the other what the group is called - the important fact is just that they're the bad guy who must be done away with.

Sure, that makes sense in general. It matters to me because my very personality is that I'm pedantic, and I usually read through the whole opening posts even when it's blatantly simple like this game. I only generally use "scum" before I'm sure who they are, or not sure if it's mafia or an SK.

I just think you're a) wrong in this case, and b) generalizing without taking into account the characteristics of the player you're talking about/with.

I don't recall the threads ever being screwed up on April Fool's Day, just the avatars and user-related information (not including usernames).

To be more specific, there was a short period of time where certain threads were giving "No new posts in this topic" errors when they shouldn't. I don't know if that was the problem with my counting or not, but it looked like he had just reached 12, when in fact he had apparently just reached 11.

But that's less of a vital point here and you're right in saying that it's an unprovable issue. In general, it gives the impression that you're trying to appear in agreement with the lynch without having actually wanted it.

Well, we can argue about it until the cows come home, but it's my word against yours; worse than usual for WIFOM.

But for my main point, here again consider the mentality of a person who complains (even just a bit passive-aggressively) about tidus' giving up and admitting to being scum. I'm not saying that there's no reason a pro-town player might be upset about that. It makes the game less fun when other players give up.

For a pro-town player in this situation, that's going to be somewhat mediated by the fact that it's still early in the game, meaning that there's still a ways to go for the win. And, since we've lynched one scum, we have a bit more of a buffer to work with and additional information to build off of.

On the other hand, for scum, the annoyance of tidus being a poor sport is compounded by the fact that it's made scum's game that much more difficult. And so, they have greater reason to feel slighted by his actions, and therefore more of an emotional disposition toward complaining about it.

So, when someone complains about tidus quitting, I'm more inclined to think of them as likely to be scum. And in this case, that meant you. In then reading back over your posts, I came across the Asian Mafia comment, which I had missed yesterday, so I chose to include that. By my main argument is on the psychology of being annoyed enough at tidus to type "tidus_of_quittingland."

The only time I've ever not been annoyed at a quitter was in an old-style Newbie game when the Cop & Doc had us dead to rights. Other than that, I take the same attitude toward it that I do toward replacements; I think they damage the game and make it harder to enjoy/play. You already alluded to the fact that a bunch of people are now both simultaneously "off the hook" for voting their possible scum partner, and more suspicious for voting after he claimed scum (including me). How does that part make our job easier?

All of that being said, I'm not really inclined to think either MoS or TheCesspit are scum today, based on tidus' claim/FOS. Fritzler, on the other hand, ignored the bandwagon on tidus, and had some strange behaviors on D1 (I already mentioned that he's shown full awareness of the recruitment scheme AND said he has people in mind he might have recruited).

Vote: Fritzler

as a better option in my mind, today.

Well, Tidus was clearly a newbie, but how does the way he broke under pressure tell us anything about the characteristics of the rest of the scum group?

...

I just want to understand Mr. Flay's logic here; it bothers me a little when the most experenced player in the game tries to imply that the scum are probably all new players, so I would like him to explain his logic here.

Gyeah. I am by far neither the most experienced player here nor the best. I'm actually a fairly lousy pro-town player, perhaps by virtue of not much experience...

That being said, I

do

have some insights into the criminal mind. My statement about tidus and his (potential) band of newbies is that if tidus felt like he wasn't going to get any support from teammates to deflect what was going on, that may have contributed to his fold. A newbie scum may stay 100% away from their partner, avoiding any defense whatsoever; I'm not even saying it's a good theory, just putting it out there.

[neongrey]

To be more specific, there was a short period of time where certain threads were giving "No new posts in this topic" errors when they shouldn't.

This much, I'll confirm(or confirm and correct; the error was that there were no posts in a topic at all), and it was happening with a lot of threads, this one included.

As for actually using the name of the scum... I dunno, that does seem to fall into the 'reading is scummy' area to me.

[Fuldu]

You already alluded to the fact that a bunch of people are now both simultaneously "off the hook" for voting their possible scum partner, and more suspicious for voting after he claimed scum (including me). How does that part make our job easier?

I'll just correct this so that there's no confusion later. I was suggesting that in most games, players who are on a bandwagon that lynches scum are more likely to not be members of that same group and in a game like this, where everyone knows there's only one scum group, that means they're more likely to be pro-town. My point was that for whatever degree of innocence you want to assign to that normally, in this instance you have to draw that line at tidus' scum claim instead of wherever you normally draw it.

So there's no simultaneity in what I was describing. People who voted tidus before he claimed get whatever amount of lenience you would normally give to a player on a bandwagon that lynches scum (what you've called "off the hook," though I think that phrase is a bit too strong and the quotes you used made me think that I'd said it). People who voted after the claim, including both you and me, get none.

[DrippingGoofball]

Not buying the argument that the scum are a band of newbies - ewbies -wbies - bies- ies - es - s.

Hey! Ey! Y!

There's some echo in the moutaint this morning, where's everybody - verybody - erybody - rybody - ybody - body - ody - dy - y?

[creampuffeater]

well it seems that MoS never got around to posting later.....

Fos:MoS

. Im just waiting for him to post....

[neongrey]

I'm in another game with him, and he hasn't yet there, either, so I'm willing to wait at least a little longer for him to completely sort out whatever it is.

[Norinel]

Vote Count:

Mastermind of Sin- 2 (TheCesspit, Fritzler)
TheCesspit- 2 (Twomz, Dead Rikimaru)
Fritzler- 1 (Mr. Flay)
Mr. Flay- 1 (Fuldu)

Not voting (13): broomhead, creampuffeater, DrippingGoofball, JamesSparrow, logicticus, LoudMouthLee, Mastermind of Sin, Mini Neo, neongrey, RandomActs, Thoth, TSAGod, Yosarian2

10 to lynch.

[TheCesspit]

Hi all,

I will be away for the weekend, so please don't expect too much input fro me.

Thanks.

[broomhead]

well i am going to say that we lay off MoS for a bit, because he's not just ignoring this game, he's letting all his games slack. it bothers me alot when people lurk, but he just had issues loggin on and such, as for my thoughts on who is scum? well i know we discussed not talking about this on day two but i really agree with the argument on who the scum would pick to recruit, and i just think fritzler would be at the top of everyone's list, i mean he's in every game, so as to vote to show the record:

vote fritz

[TSAGod]

well i am going to say that we lay off MoS for a bit, because he's not just ignoring this game, he's letting all his games slack. it bothers me alot when people lurk, but he just had issues loggin on and such, as for my thoughts on who is scum? well i know we discussed not talking about this on day two but i really agree with the argument on who the scum would pick to recruit, and i just think fritzler would be at the top of everyone's list, i mean he's in every game, so as to vote to show the record:

vote fritz

Could anything be more WIFOM?

[Yosarian2]

vote:TSAGod

[Twomz]

@ TSAGoD: Back on MTGNews there was a player named Dusk_. Now Dusk_ was ALWAYS mafia. And at the beginning of one game Day 1, first post, he said "I'm mafia"... We didn't lynch him because we were sure it was a joke... but i hadn't been playing for that long (with him) so i didn't know what to think about it. I don't remember what alignment he was... but i do remember it being very WIFOM.

@ Yos: What's w/ the vote? Is discussing WIFOM scummy to you?

[Yosarian2]

(shrug) A couple of reasons. WIFOM if used properly isn't always scummy, but I think that just waving the WIFOM wand to make internally logical arguments you don't like just vanish has become so overused and cliche it's become an easy tool for scum to abuse. I was actually a bit suspicious of Fritz already, and when TSAGod defended Fritz that way, it made me go back and take a closer look at his earlier posts.

So I went back to look at what he's done so far this game, and he's really done almost nothing. 5 posts;all short, saying nothing contraversial, noting that really looked like an attempt to find scum, nothing really useful. The only thing of any significance at all he did was be attack The Cesspit for the "trying to look pro-town" comment, and that was after logictics had already pointed it out.

TSAGod's not lurking, but he's not really doing anything either; at least, not until he defended Fritzer.