Open 326: Pick Your Poison (Ende des Speils!)

[thunderwielder]

@RoboThor,
In response to why I switched my vote over to Mothrax. I first did it because I was wary of Trow. Now that wariness has dissipated. I still

really

like Trow's case. However, I don't like us having to choose between lynching a lurker in LyLo (if, in the worst case scenario, Mothrax somehow miraculously flips town). I also think Mothrax's flip will probably give us more information in terms of relationships. If Mothrax is scum, I hardly see Hoppster as scum, since he's been pushing Mothrax all game. I then will need to revisit your slot and Supreme Overlord's slots to see your connection with him. I don't feel anyone's really defended Maruchan, and his last few posts are becoming increasingly more scummy (especially not pointing out that he put Mothrax at L-1, that's a big no no in my books--along with his still avoiding answering Mr. Trow's case on him and hoping it will go away), but I feel we can save him until tomorrow, because he'll be posting more and we'll be able to see more interaction with him. (I suppose the same relationship information can be derived from Maruchan's flip too, but the only thing I would get would be a pretty confirmed town Trow, due to his contributions to the game. Plus, Maruchan's kind of been all over the map throughout the game, and Mothrax has been more simplistic, and therefore easily to disect)
I'm now turning my mind to lynching for information. We CANNOT waste today's lynch. We NEED to lynch someone who is a)well, obviously very very suspicious so we can lynch a scum but b)if we're to choose between those two, I'm going to go with the one that can give us more relationships. And more information after their death--since we're not getting much information from them when they've been alive.
I think Hoppster said this before--that in his mind, he's been categorizing people as "Mothrax" or "not-Mothrax." I think this information will be valuable to us on Day 4 if we lynch Mothrax now, and give Maruchan a chance to dig his grave a little more, and then lynch him tomorrow (notwithstanding a huge, magical, better case on someone else).

[thunderwielder]

As for the stuff recently happening... well, to be honest, there's not too much I can comment on. I've already agreed with Amrun's stance on Tragedy, but I would like her to finish her readthrough before I pass my final verdict. I think Amrun's push is too aggressive for scum, and I've a towny read on Amrun pretty much all game. For now, at least, it'll probably stay that way until the end of the day. Mr Trow is leaning town for his case and the amount of work he put into it. RoboThor, you're still a null, but mostly because I'm afraid that I'm being tricked by you again.
Other than that, I think I've addressed everything that had happened in the page that I didn't post.

[Hoppster]

sup doodz

V/LA until Friday

don't kill mothrax before I get back

I JEST


@ Tragedy: Looks like it's Maruchan or mothrax today, make a stance plz.

[Tragedy]

He was prodded like 3 posts ago...

I think this might be important... Was there a benefit of Tragedy saying "Prod Mothrax!" other than to get the heat off of her? It's another way of saying "Hey guys, don't forget about THIS suspicious person too! Don't just focus on meee..."

Well, focusing on me isn't being productive, you know. It's basically like scum "waiting" for me to finish posting cases (Which is taking a long while), so they're using me as time to stall and crap.
But yes, he still needs to be prodded.

[thunderwielder]

He was prodded like 3 posts ago...

I think this might be important... Was there a benefit of Tragedy saying "Prod Mothrax!" other than to get the heat off of her? It's another way of saying "Hey guys, don't forget about THIS suspicious person too! Don't just focus on meee..."

Well, focusing on me isn't being productive, you know. It's basically like scum "waiting" for me to finish posting cases (Which is taking a long while), so they're using me as time to stall and crap.
But yes, he still needs to be prodded.

Yeah, which he already had been. So you pointing it out really means absolutely nothing. And now you're falling back on "It's going to take me a long while," and still haven't put any input in towards the Mothrax/Maruchan debate that seems to be our options (also what RoboThor just asked you). ALSO, you haven't answered the question RoboThor just asked you again. which you are ignoring, only to post snide remarks about how anyone targetting you isn't productive.
Sure, Mothrax isn't being productive, but if THAT was your main point (I can only infer perhaps that's what you meant by scum waiting--or were you talking about Maruchan? He said something of the sort before, right?), why not say it that way? Instead, you're now just being defensive and playing the "don't look at me too closely" card. Who else are the scum that are waiting for you to finish?
My point is, why not say it outright, instead of hiding behind defensiveness and stalling? Who are you suspecting? You talk of productivity, well, your last post was anything but.

[Maruchan]

Ending that sentence with a question mark probably doesn`t make sense to anyone.
Care to be more specific?

If it is about my last post:
You (minor detail, the current #2 wagon) put someone at L-1 WITHOUT pointing this out (while we are about to have a replacement coming in)
I see no problem with you not wanting to be lynched, i do see one with setting up an accidental quickhammer.
Intentional or not i want that to be clear:

Mothrax is currently at L-1

My bad, I did not notice this.

Elll One on Morthrax everbody

[Tragedy]

Thunderwielder

I LOVE unnecessary walls. Because it's pretty freaking obvious that they ARE unnecessary, and that MEANS something. It tells us something about the poster. It gives us more of a chance to see flaws in arguments and contradictions.
I say: give me more walls.
If they are filled with content, we get closer to finding scum.
If they are filled with nothing meaningful, we get closer to finding scum, because townies should be always trying to contribute SOMETHING.

This post is a very townie post.

I give up.
I am hereby giving up trying to get you to pull your weight for the town and resign myself to a stone cold wall of nothingness forever emanating from your slot (my hypocrite comment was directed at you not reading my posts, where I rephrased one of my questions, yet you played the hurt card ONCE AGAIN, and claimed I wasn't reading any of your posts, when I would really really truly like to see where you're coming from).

Oh, you hypocrite.

By pushing a Saulres lynch, when you really have nothing to support that case, and saying it's the one of the two ONLY lynches you'll go for, without having a single piece of evidence other than supposition is crazy talk.

Mhmm. Sounds like you really want to lynch glowball

that

badly.

I'm not comfotable with a Maruchan lynch today simply because Glowball is on that wagon.

Oh, you. Why the specific Glowball, because she spew out crap against Maruchan, but not anyone else on the wagon? (Other than Lane?)

If I were scum

, playing in this fashion, I would probably still try to explain things--unless I didn't have explanation, in which case I would try and turn the tables using my emotions, and get into a ridiculous argument long enough for everyone to forget why I had received votes in the first place , and at the same time discredit my main attacker by getting him into a pointless argument that makes everyone devalue his opinion and his scumhunting capabilities.

Interesting to know how you would play as scum, but is that really true? I haven't seen your scum meta yet (There isn't really one from here. Durrrr).

I think you might be confusing Maruchan with Supreme Overlord. He's the one who's had my back with the Glowball case, and we both are having very similar responses to things, whereas Maruchan's vote is still on you.

Thinking about this, is Supreme Overlord trying to buddy you like hell?

I think this quote might disprove your Maruchan theory, Mothrax.

Why are you disproving someone else's theory for Maruchan? I don't seem to get it.

Lane, every time you do something that's mildly productive, you come out again with one of these posts filled with sarcasm and defensiveness that makes you seem scummy to me. You should probably stop doing that.

I would vote lane over mothrax (but Glow over Lane). I still think we should give him a bit more time to respond. Maybe he'll pop up with a super duper townie read. I would just hate lynching someone who might have valuable things to say.

Funny how obvious scummy guy is getting lynched over the unproductive scum.

Actually… I can really start to see the benefits of a Mothrax lynch. BUT I’d rather let him contribute more. Although at this point, I’m torn if he actually WILL contribute more, and if we’ll get anything out of him.

Pressure = More contribution. Do you think we would have got any information from him when he ISN'T being pressured?

The aggressive attack back on her, as well as the vote, makes it seem like too much of an over-reaction. Also, now not commenting on anything regarding Lane's flip AKA why you were so adamant (I use this word in fond memory, Lane) that he was scum (sure, we all were), but more importantly what his flipping town means, makes me suspect you more than her case.

Mhm.

I think Amrun's push is too aggressive for scum, and I've a towny read on Amrun pretty much all game.

Oh, she's

that

aggressive, alright.

Sure, Mothrax isn't being productive, but if THAT was your main point (I can only infer perhaps that's what you meant by scum waiting--or were you talking about Maruchan? He said something of the sort before, right?), why not say it that way?

I apologize that I end up saying vague stuff that ends up being a misunderstanding on our parts. But yes, I'm also indirectly referring to Maruchan as well (Fluffy posts, I have to agree with you).

---

Looking at the glowball case, it's most likely the first time I've seen you really go that far to do so. Most of the time, you would be giving out reads with other people that comes with ISOs, but you're doing it on one post. And you aren't ISO'ing anyone.

But I still thunk you are town.

---

Talking about Amrun's aggressiveness, have you seen it on recent games that she's playing at the moment as town? No.

All I'm saying is this: Tragedy is posting like scum. She always posts somewhat like scum, but this time it is alarming me because it is a different like-scum than I am used to. Had I never played with Tragedy, I'd probably be MORE convinced Tragedy was scum.

You were more used to me being a complete dumbass. I'm basically trying to change that. And looking for bad things in your ISO is something I would be looking for, if I would think that you would be scum, obviously.
And you are scum in my eyes.

Tragedy is scum because she ISOed the first person on the drop down list and fabricated farcical reasons to call that person scum before reading anything else. That person is me, but quite honestly, it doesn't matter. It's only coincidental.

That's what I've been doing since Execution Mafia 2. Not fabricating shit (Unless I misunderstood the whole thing), Sorry.

This trend has continued. This is weird for Tragedy-town I know; she usually muddles along a bit, but eventually points out some good things. She assumes the best of people rather than the worst, usually. She is not that great at asserting her suspicions.

Can't accept my change? Yes, my first scum-play here was terrible, which was Frenzy Mafia.

You know Auckmid is scum, that's why.

I don't know why I don't have a scum QT, help me!

My stance on shitwalls: My eyes glaze over, but I eventually read them. AT SOME POINT in the game, I usually even fully process them, but concision really is pro-town when at all possible.

I'm not even going to address the rest of your post on me because it's tossing bollocks. "Where is this" my ass. Try reading the actual game instead of just ISOing me because my name comes first alphabetically and calling me scum out of laziness.

Don't try to run away by saying "Your shit is bullshit", if you think it's bullshit, argue and point out the goddamn problems instead of being a bitch about it. I -might- ended up repeating this again from earlier, but whatever.

[thunderwielder]

@Tragedy,
I'm assuming the questions aren't rhetorical, so if they are, well... then I guess this post is useless. But let me know if I left out something you want answered.

Why the specific Glowball, because she spew out crap against Maruchan, but not anyone else on the wagon? (Other than Lane?)

At that specific time moment in time, I couldn't see past the Glowball lynch. It was before Glowball was dead, right? I was really really certain in that lynch, because of all the avoiding, and the non-contributing, and what seemed to me to be fairly fabricated cases with little weight behind them. That's where that came from.

Interesting to know how you would play as scum, but is that really true? I haven't seen your scum meta yet

No, I've been stone cold Vanilla for every game that I've played thus far. I've played only one game off this site, which is what got me into this site, that my buddy modded, and I was a Vanilla there (but managed to bag all three scum on day one--I wish it had been on here, really, because I was pretty proud--but probably because we were all new, so it was easier to spot people making mistakes and pretending to blend in). Anyway, yeah, it's true. If it came down to questions that I couldn't answer without revealing myself, I would try to do everything in my power to make those questions go away and people to forget about them. It made sense at the time, and I think it still makes sense now.

Thinking about this, is Supreme Overlord trying to buddy you like hell?

I'm not sure. It's hard, because he's popped up with the same reads as I have, and I think they sound genuine. However, after recently looking back on events, I've been noticing that at the beginning of Day Two, he was pretty adamant that his reasons for voting Glowball were justified. But, actually, looking back, I can't find the thing that jumped out at me, so I'm not sure how glaringly obvious he was. But, and perhaps this is because he's been on the same page with me, but I feel Supreme Overlord is still townie. BUT, then again, we haven't managed to lynch scum yet, so that gut read is becoming less and less sure. I don't think he was buddying me, though. I feel his reasons for voting were actually some of the most original/genuine. The voting reasons get a little shifty as the vote counts were added.

Why are you disproving someone else's theory for Maruchan? I don't seem to get it.

I'm disproving it because it was

Mothrax's

theory for Maruchan. There's a difference, especially because at that point, I'm pretty sure (correct me if my memory is faulty) that Mothrax's Maruchan case was the largest read he had--and provided the most content towards. So disproving of his biggest theory shows that perhaps it was fabricated and made-up because he was looking for "providing a case cred." That's what I was looking for. I asked the same thing of Glowball, to which she never responded to. Come to think of it, did Mothrax respond?

Funny how obvious scummy guy is getting lynched over the unproductive scum.

This isn't a question for me, but I have a clarification. Are you here saying that you feel Mothrax was scummier than Lane? Or rather, is? Not sure what you mean by this.

Do you think we would have got any information from him when he ISN'T being pressured?

To be honest, especially at this point, I don't think so. He seems really flakey, and probably not as interested or into the game as most others in this game.

Looking at the glowball case, it's most likely the first time I've seen you really go that far to do so. Most of the time, you would be giving out reads with other people that comes with ISOs, but you're doing it on one post. And you aren't ISO'ing anyone.

Could you also elaborate on what you mean by this? Are you saying that I have only really scumhunted Glowball? Or that she was my biggest case? What did you think of my other cases? On the three (Lane, Maruchan and Mothrax)?

[thunderwielder]

Could everyone else that Tragedy has done an ISO on, PLEASE RESPOND IN THE MANNER I DID? I'm fairly certain she's asked questions from everyone, and I think I'm the only one to give a comprehensive response.

[thunderwielder]

And Tragedy, once you read Supreme Overlord, are you going to do a readthrough through the whole thread and then give us a summation of your findings, plus your top scum suspects? Because I would really appreciate that.

[RoboThor]

This is the second time this game robothor became active when the leading wagon was losing to the mothrax wagon.

So...what? You're saying we shouldn't lynch Maru and should lynch Mothrax?

I also think Mothrax's flip will probably give us more information in terms of relationships. If Mothrax is scum, I hardly see Hoppster as scum, since he's been pushing Mothrax all game.

This is, in its sum totality, the best offer of info gained you provided for Mothrax over Maru.
Rebuttal: You think Hoppster is scum?
Either one is good info if scum, either one is 'bleh' if town other than VCA. Don't fool yourself with theoreticals in your own head.

Well, focusing on me isn't being productive, you know. It's basically like scum "waiting" for me to finish posting cases (Which is taking a long while), so they're using me as time to stall and crap.

As a way around this I have two ideas;

1. Just read the thread, make a scum case, and go for it - offer other reads as needed, and deep explanation as requested. It saves some time.

2. I will re-state that you have, again, not answered my question. If you're intentionally avoiding answering it could you at least say so, it will spare me some time and effort. Otherwise - just answer the question.

3. Also, move your vote, though I want to hear that case explained anyway, your useless vote on a useless wagon is

useful

no, wait, the thing that is the antonym of useful...can't think of the right word...

Could everyone else that Tragedy has done an ISO on, PLEASE RESPOND IN THE MANNER I DID? I'm fairly certain she's asked questions from everyone, and I think I'm the only one to give a comprehensive response.

Nah. If she actually declares any of that mush to be an actual opinion of her saying we're doing something scummy then I will. If she doesn't take her thoughts seriously, why should I?

[RoboThor]

@Amrun - I think I'm down for a Tragedy lynch. If I can't get any more traction on this Maru wagon soon I'll come help you steamdrive that one through.

[thunderwielder]

Why is Tragedy better than Mothrax or Maruchan?

[thunderwielder]

Actually, well, no I can buy it. But I'd like to hear your response anyway.

[RoboThor]

Your initial question contains a : of my stated opinion; allow me to clarify -

Want to lynch;
Maru
Tragedy
Mothrax

As far as I'm aware the case on Mothrax is still *my* case on Nobody Special (lurkfail) and though I don't hate it, I'm hardly annoited by the gawds to see it through till the end today. What of it?

[RoboThor]

Above list is in descending order of desire, natch.

[Amrun]

Tragedy, I'm actually a pretty aggressive player either way... Where you got the impression otherwise, idk.

[thunderwielder]

Actually, I'd be okay with a Tragedy lynch today too. I think we need to start thinking outside our proverbial box, so to speak. My only worry is that since we've been circling Mothrax and Maruchan for so long, and if they are scum, I don't want them to get off the hook.

As for the information aspect... you're right, RoboThor. (Thank you for clarifying your desires). The bigger reason for me to lynch Mothrax over Maruchan is that I thought Maruchan would be producing more information and I didn't want to have to choose between lynching someone and lynching a lurker (Mothrax), on the odd chance that Maruchan is town and we go into LyLo tomorrow. But Maruchan seems to have stopped his really really active posting by now, but I still think he'll be more active than Mothrax, who seems on the verge of being replaced.

[RoboThor]

If mothrax is in replacement zone, then we have as good a chance as any that his replacement will be a balls out posting psycho of the Nth degree. Unless you think his lurk is strategic insomuch as he's hoping town forgets about him - the conversation is fairly 'meh'.

Besides, even when Maru is providing content I'm not sure I can understand it.

[Maruchan]

@Thunderwileder, you're right I have been MUCH less active in ALL my games these past two weeks. Just with school starting up again I realized that I am a bit busier, and with my playstyle it makes it harder for me to concentrate onthe game. Which is why I am waiting till I am out of ALL of my current games before I in for a new one, so I will be back to myself. I still had a left-over from my super-loads-of-time Summer Schedule when I started this game.

@RoboTHor ask for clarification on anything I say and I will gladly try to explain better.

[Tragedy]

If we're talking about people 'Out of the Box', that we would eventually agree to look upon,
I would still want (people) to take a good look at Amrun.

[Xalxe]

Votecount 3.4: The "Ugly Faces; Can We Get New Ones?" Votecount

mothrax (4): Hoppster, Amrun, thunderwielder, Maruchan
Maruchan (2): MrTrow, RoboThor
Amrun (1): Tragedy

Not Voting (2)

: mothrax, Supreme Overlord

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Deadline

: September 25th, 9 am EST ((expired on 2011-09-25 08:56:40))

mothrax AND Supreme Overlord are being replaced.

Here we are at Neuschwanstein. Glad you survived the hike up the hill.

Ludwig was a weird guy. Like, certifiably insane. Yeah. One unique feature of this castle is that the main builders were immortalized in stone...as ugly gargoyles. Ludwig was a jerk.

[thunderwielder]

Tragedy, I want your top three reads, with reasoning why, plus an analysis of Supreme Overlord's slot and then a vote (if it's not the hammer for Mothrax) like, two days ago. Could you do that for us please?

The lack of commitment happening here is appalling. Are we just going to not post our way into a scum win?

I'm getting more likely to vote for a Tragedy lynch right now, actually. Since I made the declaration that I would have to wait and see when she's done her cases and given her reads to decide she's scum, she's henceforth not given her reads or her cases. And her activity has declined.

You want us to take a good look at Amrun? Make a good case on Amrun.

[Thor665]

Unvote: Maruchan
Vote: Tragedy

The world.
Has shifted.

[RoboThor]

Unvote: Maruchan
Vote: Tragedy

The world.
Has shifted.
Twice.