Imperial Intrigue (Endgame, OUT OF NOWHERE)

[MacDougall]

Is there really anything to suggest that this layout is specifically scum vs. town? I am getting the feeling that there is far more to it than that. I am thinking that the scum are a hidden faction and Argelev and its dissidents are too busy at each others throats to notice.

I am of House Morvanus, oldest and most loyal to House Argelev. It is my duty to do my utmost to eliminate all threats to House Argelev. At this stage the greatest threat to House Argelev is very clearly the one who has painted the rightful heir to the throne as scum.

vote: SleepyKrew

[MacDougall]

To clarify.

I am a member of the House of Argalev. I am not a Loyalist, I am of the house itself. I come from the West, where I was trapped due to the last War.

PEdit: Bogre. He specifically said "What if", "What if", et cetera. Those were directed responses.

What is the exact wording of your PM ?

That's most likely to be forbidden by the rules

---

Is there really anything to suggest that this layout is specifically scum vs. town? I am getting the feeling that there is far more to it than that. I am thinking that the scum are a hidden faction and Argelev and its dissidents are too busy at each others throats to notice.

I am of House Morvanus, oldest and most loyal to House Argelev. It is my duty to do my utmost to eliminate all threats to House Argelev. At this stage the greatest threat to House Argelev is very clearly the one who has painted the rightful heir to the throne as scum.

vote: SleepyKrew

Read my posts. Is your resolve unqestionnable ?

We have been an honorable liege to the rightful ruler for longer than any other. Our resolve cannot be questioned. In answer for your request of what lands we hold, the land is known as Anoria. The people, Anorians.

[MacDougall]

PLEASE STOP HOUSE CLAIMING.

House Argelev is central to my wincon, I'm sure there are more dangerous roles for whom it is the same. Yes, I am not strictly town(although I am for the moment). The rightful heirs to the throne are all males of House Argelev. My role DOES say that all heirs to the throne are town. There are traitors within the house, but all the rightful heirs are town. And my role suggests that scum may have an alternate wincon of killing off all the heirs. So please stop.

So at some stage you're going to be not town, and working against us. Explain why you shouldn't just be lynched now then?

[MacDougall]

I appreciate the sentiment and completely understand your point, but if what you say is true, and your role changes completely at your own whim, I can't see your heart remaining pure for long. Not many could withstand the lure of darkness.

I can't see how lynching you has the same effect as you working against us, not even close.

You best be careful from now on, revealing yourself as someone capable of nefarious acts is opening yourself up to incredible scrutiny. But for now my preference is still to lynch the man who proclaimed the rightful heir a scumbag and I cannot see how lynching David Xanatos is beneficial to the town at all.

[MacDougall]

#gandalf

And how do we know that you won't betray us? lol
That's more troublesome than anything I read from David or SK. :T

PEdit: It's more dangerous than a survivor, definitely, as survivors can't change their alignment to harm another factions.

Oh, I believe he almost certainly will betray us. Those who, historically, have faced the choice he has before him, regularly choose the path of darkness.

[MacDougall]

It's very odd that he would reveal so soon that he has a role that could prove to be our enemy. What is there to gain from it at all? He could have just as easily said the rest without telling us that part.

[MacDougall]

Indeed, that's not nice at all.

Unvote:
Vote: gandalf5166

Just because this situation is much less confusing than David/SK issue.

Your three posts have all set off alarm bells in my head Shinki. The David/SK issue isn't confusing at all if you'd bother to read it and then you waited until someone else popped the cherry before you voted on gandalf. What do you mean by "indeed, that's not nice at all?" You read as though you are just jumping on a chance to get the focus off of one of these two.

[MacDougall]

I appreciate that Samantha but I think that this case is a bit different. There are some actual happenings that seem to have disturbed some likely characters.

[MacDougall]

I cannot make that argument. The longer we wait the better. That part I agree with. It was the seeming disregard of the goings on of the first day so far that I disagreed with.

Though there is a case for removing gandalf from the game asap since he seems to be capable of moving into multiple roles in an unforeseen manner.

[MacDougall]

Ahhh fair enough!

Samantha: My thought is, it's day 1 and we are likely to lynch a good guy on day 1 just by sheer chance. Now we have before us, not an outright scumbag, but someone with potential to be one, and potential to be not one. Wouldn't it be better to rid ourselves of this worry early? I'm not suggesting we do it fast, but I am suggesting that we certainly do it.

[MacDougall]

My vote isn't on him at the moment.

[MacDougall]

As I said earlier, I must defend the rightful heir from ANYONE who is against them and SK fits that mold better than anyone right now.

[MacDougall]

Nero: I was under the impression you meant the post directly above mine.

..............................................................................................

You mean the one you claim you didn't see? Your line "Very nice catch, tclawren." makes absolutly no sense in a responce to...

MOAR SK VOTESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS

And like you said you didn't see it so you must have been refering to TC's "catch" in 14.

The nice catch tclawren post was in response to:

@SK-I'M A FUCKING LOYALIST OK. AND I BELONG TO HOUSE ARGELEV.

NOW TAKE A LOOK UP AT THE PROVIDED VT PM AND GIVE ME A GOOD FUCKING REASON WHY WE SHOULDN'T LYNCH YOUR FAIL 3RD PARTY ASS.

[MacDougall]

^ gotcha

I assume that "Factions can communicate during the day" implies that there are more factions than just the scum. Since there are so many people revealing themselves as House Argelev, I guess they all know each others identities. At this stage I think the roles are broken down into;

House Argelev Rightful
House Argelev Traitors
Loyalist Houses
Disloyal Houses
Third parties such as Gandalf.

The scum are the House Argelev traitors. The House Argelev rightful would be town special roles and the House Argelev traitors would be the scum special roles. Loyalist houses are VT and Disloyal houses are goons.

Does this seem pretty right to anybody else?

[MacDougall]

I'm not saying it's conclusive, complete or accurate. But roughly. What of it do you think is incorrect?

[MacDougall]

I take it SK isn't scum then?

unvote

[MacDougall]

Can someone please outline the case against David Xanatos.

[MacDougall]

vote: No lynch

[MacDougall]

Lol Gandalf must have the longest role PM ever devised.

Anyway my win condition is I win when all threats to House Argelev and it's loyalists are defeated.

[MacDougall]

Really? Where?

[MacDougall]

Magua, when you say I won't be around, do you mean lynched or killed?

Yes.

These votes for monk are just incredibad. Vezok has a certain tendency to be incredibad. Empking does not.

UNVOTE: tclawren
VOTE: Empking

MacDougall, why in God's name are you voting no lynch?

Well at that stage I was too confused to vote for anyone. I'll vote for someone eventually. I just wanted my vote on no lynch in case the day ended before I came back because I didn't want to be on anyone.

[MacDougall]

Why are you voting NL (and not Emp)?

At this stage I don't have much reason to think that Empking is scum. He's because intentionally obtuse imo. Trying to rub the scum the wrong way. I like it when town play like he is.

[MacDougall]

Edit: Typo. Meant to say "He's being" not "He's because".

[MacDougall]

What the fuck u scum bro?

No. What kind of a question is this?

[MacDougall]

I'm not voting for someone that I think is town.

[MacDougall]

I'm suspicious of Shinki. She just seems to be hopping from bandwagon to bandwagon to me but hasn't shown commitment to any of them. Seems hell bent on flying under the radar. Just read her ISO. She seems much more likely scum than Empking.

As for Vezok. If what Gandalf says is true, and we have no reason to doubt it, then he'd make a good bet for scum too. There is enough suspicion in him for simply being a member of House Argelev and voting for you tbh. If you are both House Argelev, and he has voted for you, then one of you is scum. I'd be happy to vote for him too.

[MacDougall]

How many people are in your chat David?

[MacDougall]

If you had more shots you'd kill more members of the town. What makes you so impervious to suspicion and criticism?

[MacDougall]

Okay well this little teet-a-teet between you two has been played out ad nauseum.

vote: Shinki

for aforementioned reasons.

[MacDougall]

Then y u vote vezok over Empking?

Will you promise to take a backseat and stop making shitposts everywhere if Empking is lynched and turns up town?

[MacDougall]

Sure.
Even though that was a legitimate scumhunting question.

Oh no I know your question was fine. It's your insistence on slaying Empking that has me confused. Really, Empking just seems like your run of the mill day 1 town lynch. You could just as easily have been in Empking's shoes and have been playing similarly other than the daykill nonsense.

[MacDougall]

unvote;vote:Emp

So wait, it's not okay for me to vote no lynch because I find the cases on everyone absurd but it's okay for you to vote for Empking with no explanation other than "SK told me to?"

[MacDougall]

He looked a lot more calculated and planned there imo. Here he just looks like he isn't putting in the same effort.

[MacDougall]

In case you haven't realised I don't think he is scum.

[MacDougall]

Shinki and Vezok are still way more scummy than Empking, notwithstanding that Empking has claimed cop. No way should we be lynching him when we have these two to lynch.

[MacDougall]

You didn't count my Shinki vote.

[MacDougall]

Also you have PeregrineV voting for Gandalf and not voting.

[MacDougall]

Okay well...

668 is rather convincing.

So would you like me to hammer him?

[MacDougall]

I'm incredibly tentative about doing this but I can't see this wagon being broken so we may as well end it now.

vote: Empking

[MacDougall]

lol I bet we did

[MacDougall]

Did you JUST NOW read 668?
I'm okay with a hammer, idk about everyone else.

Yeah I had skimmed most of what you were saying because you use all caps and bad language too much.

[MacDougall]

LOOK AT THOSE FENCES

What the hell are you saying? The only way what we say looks scummy is if Empking really IS the doctor. In which case YOU'RE THE MAIN PROSECUTOR!

[MacDougall]

^ cop, not doctor

[MacDougall]

Eh, I like to hammer.

[MacDougall]

and stop using all caps ffs!

[MacDougall]

you're the coolest guy out

[MacDougall]

VOTE: MacDougall

I was going to get into this before night fell, but I missed it. His whole "I don't buy into any of the cases here" was complete bullshit then to turn around and hammer for "Meh, I guess" reasoning was bullshit and a half. Scumbag needs to die right now.

No, I actually didn't buy into any of the cases. Then I apprehensively hammered scum out of luck. What more do you want me to do? If I was scum and hammering Empking for town cred why would I have been so blatantly apprehensive?

[MacDougall]

Wait, so what was Gandalf talking about? I doubt it's a gambit to get himself targeted as I don't see why a watcher would want to die. That'd have made more sense if he was just a townie. I don't see why he drew that attention to himself, that was a bad move. Could've been more useful as an alive watcher for us. He leaked way too much information just for some silly setting theorizing. I'm guessing his condition that turned him into scum or whatever didn't go off, which is why he's popping as green for now. Anyways, we should take a look at the people that actually thought SK could be some sort of scum day vig, and people that defended/avoided votes on EmpKing.

MacDougall, for instance.
Or kdowns. His vote on empking was also a latecoming one, with no reasoning.
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p3456292
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p3456298

Why should we be looking at those that thought SK was a scum day vig? Scum have known he wasn't scum. The only people that would have thought he was scum would be town. And by the end of it I didn't think SK was scum, I just thought he was annoying.

vote: Shinki

Her posts are just weird and her thought processes so alien to me that she can't be of the same leanings.

[MacDougall]

Is that even a reason? Or you're just making some excuses to vote for someone completely unrelated?
Well, whatever... there are more important business I must attend to.
And it seems you just ignored what I've said. Read #745 again and think about it.

Oh it's a reason. Most of your tact all game has been entirely left of centre. Why are you voting for StrangerCoug?

Also if you wanted your "read" on KDowns to be anything other than looked over, perhaps you should discredit his post with more than a "really? really?" It's your idea. You do the fleshing out.

Also you aren't unrelated. You were my main scumread on day 1 and I am re-voting.

[MacDougall]

Oh right, so your StrangerCoug post is supposed to give something away? As I said before, explain yourself better. You just seem to be throwing out suspicions without backing them up with anything at all.

[MacDougall]

^ Well obviously there is because a post ago you seemed desperate for me to read that post. I can see the game you're playing and if you aren't fooling me, you aren't fooling anybody. Just come out and make your fake claim.

Apparently I'm a Loyalist to House Argelev, and my win condition is met when all danger to House Argelev and it's loyalists are no longe existant. (paraphrase)

I can't really take sides on the SK/David wagon, 'cause both of them (players) are confusing at some point. But I guess some pressure can't hurt.
So, for now:

Vote: David Xanatos

FoS: SleepyKrew

Sorry If I mess something up, headache is killing me right now.

Ugh this is a scummy post. It has all the trademarks. Meandering thoughts, wishy washy ideas, non commitment and even your flavour is scummy. You just said the most obvious thing that makes you look town and left out the little things like House name to back yourself up! And this is your first post!

Btw, there is anyone that came from the East here?
I just realized something.

Oh I forgot about this, what did you realise exactly? All I realise is that you were the first person to mention the east and then it turns out that the scum are from the east, so explain how you knew there were easterners in the game?

Call me dumb, but I think he's not lying .-. something like 65/35 true.. I can't really understand your logic, SK.

Yeah, uhuh 65/35. I have figures too. 100%. That's your likelihood of being scum.

If we're talking about bussing yet, then here's one for the history books.

It's been some hours already... anyways,

Vote: Empking

Well, he's at L-1 now, just a reminder

"Hey guys, I didn't want to lynch Empking but I've just gone out there and put him at L-1 for you just in case".

Shinki....do you believe Emps cop claim?

After reading the case SK showed me and isolating Emp posts, he's acting more scummier than I thought, I'd bet 72/28 fake.

inb4 opportunist blablabla

Yeah, right.

Wtf is with your number crap? Just nervous psychobabble imo.

[MacDougall]

You haven't said jack about "important things for you to do here".

vote:Macdougall

vote:Macdougall

Since when is empty voting acceptable? I'm clearly not "obvscum" because I'm NOT scum so you might want to explain yourself before I flip town and you're sitting there with empty votes on me.

[MacDougall]

How about you read all the posts because I already quoted and responded to that one.

[MacDougall]

Also the exact same can be said against you except substitute hammer for putting at L-1.

[MacDougall]

Why should we be looking at those that thought SK was a scum day vig? Scum have known he wasn't scum. The only people that would have thought he was scum would be town. And by the end of it I didn't think SK was scum, I just thought he was annoying.

Yes MacDougall, because the mafia are honest people that vote themselves out instead of painting other town as scum. That's definitely how the game works.
/end sarcasm

My point was more to discredit his view. I don't see how chasing the people who thought SK was scum would be a viable option, especially since it incriminates me and I'm town, so obviously I'm going to feel that the view as a whole is wrong. SK was being scummy at first, it's hard to argue that. As soon as I realised he made the claim I moved my vote off him. Everything I did to oppose him after that was out of me not agreeing with his wagons, not because I thought he was scum.

Macdougall's case on Shinki looks like deflection,
Nero mentioned not liking Shinki before, I'd like to hear more from him

And her complete shrugging off of everything I suggested to her isn't? If you read my ISO you'll find that I had a scum read on Shinki yesterday so it's not as if I'm creating this to counter the people who think I'm scum.

In fact, if you read my ISO you'll hardly find anything scummy about me. Read hers, and it's a treasure trove.

[MacDougall]

I think her shrugging off everything you suggested is somewhat justified considering that imo her train of thought is able to be seen through her posts which you chose not to post,

So why exactly did you vote for Empking, you appear to have been suspicious of Shinki for wagon hoping, constantly saying things like "Empking is less scummy than Shinki" then turn around and hammer Empking, I don't understand how you can think that this doesn't make you scummy. Here's how I read your ISO:
LALALA This is fun!!
OH NOES YOUSE GAIZ ARE ON MAI BUDDY LETS GO LYNCH SHINKI INSTEAD
OH SHI-- MY BUDDY GOING DOWN NEW PLAN:

• BACKPEDDLE
  
• HAMMER
  
• ???
  
• TOWNCRED?

You must be a mind reader or something because to me, Shinki's train of thought is irrationally all over the place.

I was suspicious of Shinki before Empking even posted. I first called her out in this post;

Indeed, that's not nice at all.

Unvote:
Vote: gandalf5166

Just because this situation is much less confusing than David/SK issue.

Your three posts have all set off alarm bells in my head Shinki. The David/SK issue isn't confusing at all if you'd bother to read it and then you waited until someone else popped the cherry before you voted on gandalf. What do you mean by "indeed, that's not nice at all?" You read as though you are just jumping on a chance to get the focus off of one of these two.

Empking hadn't even posted in the game at that stage. So at no stage did I make up my issue with Shinki to distract from Empking. Keep trying.

[MacDougall]

AGar: I had done all my day 1 leg work on other players. My role states that I have to be true to the rightful heir right, and early on I was trying to play in theme and DX made it clear he was the rightful heir so I chose to side with him. SK was out to get him so I instantly took the opposite stance to SK. So SK turned out town, my read was wrong, but I accepted that before the night came anyway. His abrasiveness did nothing to sweeten my stance on him so him being the major mouthpiece for the Empking lynch put me off side. I didn't want him to be right because he was playing exactly the style my role PM said to oppose, opposing the rightful heir (DX). DX turned me towards Vezok and I agreed that Vezok looked scummy. Vezok was DX's attempt at undermining the Empking wagon, but because DX is a mason town he of course is above suspicion. I guess DX was opposing the Empking wagon for the same reason I was. Just didn't like the cut of SK's jib.

As for doing nothing of my own leg work, what did Shinki do of leg work? She looked at the DX vs SK situation and took a wide berth, then jumped on the easy vote at the time (Gandalf) then came back later and bussed the obvscum.

I think her shrugging off everything you suggested is somewhat justified considering that imo her train of thought is able to be seen through her posts which you chose not to post,

So why exactly did you vote for Empking, you appear to have been suspicious of Shinki for wagon hoping, constantly saying things like "Empking is less scummy than Shinki" then turn around and hammer Empking, I don't understand how you can think that this doesn't make you scummy. Here's how I read your ISO:
LALALA This is fun!!
OH NOES YOUSE GAIZ ARE ON MAI BUDDY LETS GO LYNCH SHINKI INSTEAD
OH SHI-- MY BUDDY GOING DOWN NEW PLAN:

• BACKPEDDLE
  
• HAMMER
  
• ???
  
• TOWNCRED?

You must be a mind reader or something because to me, Shinki's train of thought is irrationally all over the place.

I was suspicious of Shinki before Empking even posted. I first called her out in this post;

Indeed, that's not nice at all.

Unvote:
Vote: gandalf5166

Just because this situation is much less confusing than David/SK issue.

Your three posts have all set off alarm bells in my head Shinki. The David/SK issue isn't confusing at all if you'd bother to read it and then you waited until someone else popped the cherry before you voted on gandalf. What do you mean by "indeed, that's not nice at all?" You read as though you are just jumping on a chance to get the focus off of one of these two.

Empking hadn't even posted in the game at that stage. So at no stage did I make up my issue with Shinki to distract from Empking. Keep trying.

Why, yes you did post that before Empking posted, however at the moment since SK has flipped town and I know DX is town, she can't be trying to get the attention away from scum, therefore this is blown out of the water, try again. I never said that you were making up something on Shinki, I said that you were pushing for Shinki and Vezokpiraka over Empking and based on your reasoning in the post that you described above you are pushing Shinki for associative tells on two townies.... huh?

She rang alarm bells back then by being non-committal to the major town issue and then throwing an easy vote at Gandalf, the thought at the time being that it was to protect a potential scum, but in hindsight it could just as easily be to stay off a dangerous looking wagon. If you were scum, would you come in and level a vote at one of the two loudest town players, or would you throw an easy vote at another town player with a simpler case against him?

Look there are plenty of things you are glossing over on Shinki. What was with the east thing? Why did she blatantly refuse to answer my question? You are masons with DX and he outed that there are a faction of you so what is it? Is Shinki part of your town faction then? There has to be a reason why you are just outright refusing to address the scummy things she's done, and are seeing them in such a positive light.

I can see that being the most vocally opposed to a major PR for scum being lynched looks bad, but I will fight until the gallows because I am conclusively innocent.

[MacDougall]

You're right. My bad.

Anyway, how bout the rest?

[MacDougall]

How fail of you all. Enjoy day 3.

[MacDougall]

STOP TRYING TO STALL THE MACDOUGAL LYNCH. If Macdougall flips scum this is his buddy.

Think what you wish. Just because I am not quick to vote and actually want to see both sides does not make me scum, I'm pretty sure it makes me more town than the players who are voting blindly.

Don't worry about it mate, I'm town so you'll look a million bucks.

[MacDougall]

Lol if you're a cop you're not very good. How do you expect to live past night 2?

[MacDougall]

Anywho going by the fact that Shinki is cleverly trying to hide the fact that she's a cop with a scumread on StrangerCoug.

vote: StrangerCoug

[MacDougall]

Anywho going by the fact that Shinki is cleverly trying to hide the fact that she's a cop with a scumread on StrangerCoug.

vote: StrangerCoug

Who said anything about it being clever?

vote should go here:
VOTE: StrangerCoug

Lol if you're a cop you're not very good. How do you expect to live past night 2?

How do cops normally expect to live past night 2? Admittedly there are ways to not out yourself...

I was being facetious. Cops often live past night 2. They might not expect to, but they don't actively try to get themselves killed on night 2. She's more or less just doing a trade off. Cop for scum. Which might even be worth it now that they've lost their cop. So good for you Shinki.

[MacDougall]

That is of course unless Shinki has found the doctor as well? Wouldn't that be something.

[MacDougall]

Aww check it out Shinki. Everyone is helping you get rid of the scummy guy. Nice work!

[MacDougall]

Your post sounds so fake.
You're just happy 'cause your head is off the guillotine for now

Your post sounds so fake.
You're just happy 'cause your head is off the guillotine for now, but I would still prefer to lynch you today and the confirmed scum for tomorrow just because all that deflection of yours.

Lol but then you'd be lynching town today. So that would be stupid. I wasn't actually being fake, I was being as Bogre put it, asinine. Feel free to ID me tonight after we lynch real scum.

VOTE: Strangercoug

Why is MacDougall speculating about finding the doctor and being asinine to Shinki?

I'm just trying to work out why the cop would reveal themselves on day 2.

[MacDougall]

Oh, I forgot, you'll be dead. Hopefully we have a doctor.

[MacDougall]

I didn't said you killed someone today.
I'm saying that you're scum. I just added some flavor to my first post in this day.

And of course, MacDougall is suspect and annoying, but yes, we lynch you today.

Sorry for playing the game Shinki. I concur that you are the boss of Imperial Intrigue.

[MacDougall]

Oh, I forgot, you'll be dead. Hopefully we have a doctor.

ffs, stop talking about doctors we have a lynch, its as if you want to drag out another PR, not happening dude

How is anything I've said even remotely close to dragging out a PR? I'm just thinking out loud as to why Shinki would do this. If she has role related information that says SC is scum, then why did she just want to have a one on one with him while I (a non-confirmed vanilla townie) am the days lynch?

I guess she was just trying to get him to counter her "subtle" suggestion with scumminess so she could put forward a case against him that wasn't to her PR? There's also the possibility that she's part of a faction that the cop is in and is acting as a mouthpiece of sorts.

[MacDougall]

So since you are going down SC. I noticed a post in which you replied to SK's "K ur scum" with "No, I have bigger fish to fry".

What did you mean by that?

[MacDougall]

Lol no he's voting for a townie, but you won't see the truth. Blinded by ego.

[MacDougall]

unvote;vote:SC

MacDougall and Matt P are still scum though.

Please tell me how I am scum. Because I wanted to find out more about the questions posed on shinki? I hadn't realized that trying instead of taking the easy way and voting was a scumtell. Thanks for informing me, I'm new to this forum.

This is PRETTY MUCH why I'm scum to them. Also don't bother trying to explain yourself, that just makes you more scummy. Just give up on this game because you're next in line after me.

[MacDougall]

AGar: I had done all my day 1 leg work on other players.

No you didn't, and there's a post of yours that perfectly illustrates this.

unvote;vote:Emp

So wait, it's not okay for me to vote no lynch because I find the cases on everyone absurd

No, it's not. If you're town, you find someone you think is scum and you vote for that scumbag. On Day 1 of all days, you DO NOT VOTE A NO LYNCH UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE.

Sure you do. I did it. Proved your little hypothesis wrong. That post illustrates nothing. I had done legwork and all it had come to was that I felt absolutely no reason to lynch anybody. What's wrong with a no lynch on day 1? I'd already tossed my vote around in RVS like a good boy, believe what you will. Loyalist as they come right here. Oldest of the loyal.

[MacDougall]

unvote;vote:SC

MacDougall and Matt P are still scum though.

Please tell me how I am scum. Because I wanted to find out more about the questions posed on shinki? I hadn't realized that trying instead of taking the easy way and voting was a scumtell. Thanks for informing me, I'm new to this forum.

This is PRETTY MUCH why I'm scum to them. Also don't bother trying to explain yourself, that just makes you more scummy. Just give up on this game because you're next in line after me.

You could also be mafia trying to buddy me so that they kill me after you.

You don't have to worry about that because I'll flip town before you get lynched. Roll your eyes all you want.

[MacDougall]

Lol I'm not butthurt and I've already given all the reasons I possible can to justify what I've done. As for scum since when was Vezok off the table?

[MacDougall]

Lol I'm not butthurt and I've already given all the reasons I possible can to justify what I've done. As for scum since when was Vezok off the table?

Since when was Vezok ON the table, for you?

Well I did agree with David yesterday that he was scummy.

As for a pbpa. Ugh, fine. Give me an hour.

[MacDougall]

I'm House Argelev.

Here he says he is House Argelev, also the house of David Xanatos, who claims that he is THE rightful heir. Solely.

unvote
vote davidX

Why do you have to post so much guys.

And now he votes David. Hmmm.

Yeah.

We can lynch monk and david together for being scum.
"Third Legion Stormtroopers Allied to the true Heir of the Throne." - monk

I see neither loyalist nor House Argelev in your claim. You are scum my friend.

unvote vote monk

And now, after Monk and David are revealed as Masons, he votes for Monk because he isn't House Argelev or Loyalist. But at the same time suggests that David be the next lynch, despite David being the first and most vocal House Argelev claim.

PLEASE STOP HOUSE CLAIMING.

House Argelev is central to my wincon, I'm sure there are more dangerous roles for whom it is the same. Yes, I am not strictly town(although I am for the moment). The rightful heirs to the throne are all males of House Argelev. My role DOES say that all heirs to the throne are town. There are traitors within the house, but all the rightful heirs are town. And my role suggests that scum may have an alternate wincon of killing off all the heirs. So please stop.

Gandalf suggests in his role PM that all males of House Argelev are rightful heirs and subsequently town. He also suggests that there are traitors within House Argelev. Vezok never claims to be a "rightful heir". Just a member of House Argelev (that happens to be voting for an outed "rightful heir" and his mason friend).

So it's very likely that Vezok is one of these alleged traitors within the house. If he was claiming Argelev for the purpose of faking town. If he is in House Argelev and has it in for Monk and David Xanatos, then I would be 99% sure that either Vezok alone, or David AND Monk are scum. Vezok being far more likely, due to his low post count, only being opposed to the vocal rightful heir and the information given to us by Gandalf.

[MacDougall]

I'm suspicious of Shinki. She just seems to be hopping from bandwagon to bandwagon to me but hasn't shown commitment to any of them. Seems hell bent on flying under the radar. Just read her ISO. She seems much more likely scum than Empking.

As for Vezok. If what Gandalf says is true, and we have no reason to doubt it, then he'd make a good bet for scum too. There is enough suspicion in him for simply being a member of House Argelev and voting for you tbh. If you are both House Argelev, and he has voted for you, then one of you is scum. I'd be happy to vote for him too.

Here's the post in which I had a scum read on Vezok yesterday. Fwiw.

[MacDougall]

Check it out. Fifth post in the thread. First in well over 24 hours, just happens to be when his name is mentioned. I believe they call this, "active lurking".

[MacDougall]

Check it out. Fifth post in the thread. First in well over 24 hours, just happens to be when his name is mentioned. I believe they call this, "active lurking".

Actually I didn't have time to check the thread before. I told the mod that.

Also your accusations are baseless you I don't really care about them.

Yeah yeah. Didn't have time to check the thread until the precise moment that your name came up again. Well handled.

Is that really the best you can do? Well I think your defense is inept and terrible and that you're scum.

[MacDougall]

SC is at L-1 now. i still think shinki is faking the guilty result.

unvote, vote: shinki

inb4 "i only got a tracker/gunsmith/fake result on SC, but his reaction after being "caught" is scummy." by shinki after SC flips town.

if SC flips town, I'm gonna use this post to make a case against you

[MacDougall]

Honestly, if I come under immense scrutiny for disagreeing with lynching a player who flips scum, then doing it IN THE FACE OF A COP READ has to go one step further.

[MacDougall]

The following is the entirety of Vezokpiraka's posting in this thread.

I'm House Argelev.

Okay then.

You don't Lynch me for the same reason you don't Lynch a survivor. Lynching me has exactly the same effect as if you left me alive and I decided to work against you(you get one less chance to Lynch scum), it's just more distracting.

No no no.

We lynch you right now. Last few times you claimed something that isn't town but isn't bad to town you turned on us and killed us.

You die right now.

vote gandalf

Hmmm.

unvote
vote davidX

Why do you have to post so much guys

.

Lol.

Yeah.

We can lynch monk and david together for being scum.
"Third Legion Stormtroopers Allied to the true Heir of the Throne." - monk

I see neither loyalist nor House Argelev in your claim. You are scum my friend.

unvote vote monk

Yes, definitely scum that guy.

I think SC is pretty scummy. But I'm not sure what to think.

Shinki is playing so fail with that claim and SC is making good points.

I never saw a cop that didn't want his guilty lynched.

Nice read. You aren't sure what to think? But you just said you think? But you aren't sure? Ouch. Brain.

Check it out. Fifth post in the thread. First in well over 24 hours, just happens to be when his name is mentioned. I believe they call this, "active lurking".

Actually I didn't have time to check the thread before. I told the mod that.

Also your accusations are baseless you I don't really care about them.

This is just a terrible post. "You say I am scum? Well... poo poo to you sir. Poo poo." Gotta lynch this guy on principle.

Honestly, if I come under immense scrutiny for disagreeing with lynching a player who flips scum, then doing it IN THE FACE OF A COP READ has to go one step further.

HE NEVER SAID HE IS A COP.

He is just playing stupid hoping someone dies. Next thing you know tomorrow after SC town flip he comes and says. Oh sorry guys I was just a watcher, tracker, whatever and I thought by my flavor that he could be scum.

But earlier you were happy to let us all roll with Shinki being a cop, because it suited you, here it suits you to say otherwise. You flip flopped on an important issue.

Anywho, this has been the scummiest player since day 1, gotta go imo.

vote Vezok

[MacDougall]

Ah right... MacDougall is in this game.

Man I wish I had a double dayvig right now.

And no, Vezok. That is the shittiest logic I have ever seen anyone use. And this isn't your first game. Jesus christ start playing like you have a brain please?

What on Earth does this mean? I make a post pointing out the flaws in Vezok's play so you suggest day vigging both of us while insinuating that I should be day killed for being me and follow it up with having a go at Vezok for poor play?

Am I reading into that correctly?

[MacDougall]

Also as for Vezok. Surely, by now, if he was town, the scum teams would have fought to have him lynched? He's been coasting along. As town, a player like him would have been dragged out by the scum for sure.

[MacDougall]

VOTE: SodaSpirit

No consistency in his reads whatsoever
Going with the popular flow
Not providing any real or tangible and correct content.

Hi scum, die scum.

Oh and lolmaguausobadatthissticktobeingdaysk.

Magua suggests that you are scum, so instead of actually posting anything of worth to convince us otherwise you just disregard his entire post?

Ah right... MacDougall is in this game.

Man I wish I had a double dayvig right now.

And no, Vezok. That is the shittiest logic I have ever seen anyone use. And this isn't your first game. Jesus christ start playing like you have a brain please?

What on Earth does this mean? I make a post pointing out the flaws in Vezok's play so you suggest day vigging both of us while insinuating that I should be day killed for being me and follow it up with having a go at Vezok for poor play?

Am I reading into that correctly?

No. I'm suggesting I would dayvig yourself and SodaSpirit, and simply implying that Vezok's line of thought is flawed.

You've been scumming it up since Day 1, and I've already pointed this kind of thing out. You've pretty much just slid by on flawed logic and a lack of motivation to provide your own proper lines of thought so far in this game. You're scum, and I know this, so why don't you just do us a favor and out your buddies?

Point out the flawed logic?

So you don't think Vezok is scum? How could you not think he was scum? He has the scummiest post history in the game. Anyone with no role knowledge would have to assume he was scum. You're given a chance to, and you opt to suggest he has a "flawed line of thinking" instead of being scum. Bad play scum guy. Bad play.

[MacDougall]

How is me (a second gamer) voting for a player with a scummy post history, flawed logic? That just goes without saying? How am I to know that he is a well known village idiot? As for the no-lynch... I still don't get the problem. I was unaware that no lynch is auto scum. If no lynch is auto scum then why is it even there? I'm sorry but both of your points are simply a case of me being new to the play on this site. I figured that if I had nobody to vote for, then I'd be better off not voting at all than voting for someone for a bullshit reason. I guess I should have just left my vote off completely, but it never occurred to me that doing that was any different to voting for a no lynch. Besides, I ended up voting anyway.

So he has scummy post histories on the surface? Okay then, since I am seeing them at face value, and am not alone in that, I guess it means you are the one that should explain why the reads we are making on his posts are what you say they are. He only has about 7 posts, so it won't take long.

[MacDougall]

Lol I am not Mafia. I am a loyalist and I get the feeling I might be the only one.

[MacDougall]

Okay so that puts MattP at L-2.

[MacDougall]

Also as for Vezok. Surely, by now, if he was town, the scum teams would have fought to have him lynched? He's been coasting along. As town, a player like him would have been dragged out by the scum for sure.

...completely WIFOM.

Well... not really. It makes sense.

[MacDougall]

Well that was in addition to a bunch of other reasons that he's scum.

[MacDougall]

vote: SodaSpirit17

[MacDougall]

Except that it's obvious that if I were scum I would not point out that fact as that would laughably stupid.

In any sense, a re-read of Vezok opposed to Soda Spirit leads me to find the latter a more appealing lynch.

[MacDougall]

Lol I am not Mafia. I am a loyalist and I get the feeling I might be the only one.

Guys, this defense is so convincing. What was I ever thinking, suspecting this guy? We should all just follow his reads and sheep him till death do us part.

(the beware players bemoaning night kills tell)

This tell.. is so inaccurate it's not even laughable anymore.

Except that it's obvious that if I were scum I would not point out that fact as that would laughably stupid.

(cue Quake announcer voice)

W-W-W-W-WIFOMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM

---

- Oh look, MacDougall has conveniently decided to lynch Soda now that he's been called on the carpet about his bullshit Vezok push. Good to know.
- I like manho. I'd like him better with a bit more content. But I like manho.
- Boger is good too.
- Soda has gone turbolurk now. Magua's turbolurk is noted too. Nicely found enough time to drop 4 posts on his Mini Theme, couldn't even drop one here. Been 55ish hours since he posted.

---

- Key note in post 888, where MacDougall posts his "case" on Vezok. Vezok ISO#5 (860), Vezok states that he isn't sure about Shinki's claim, and the play surrounding it is sketchy. Vezok pretty clearly notes that he is doubtful of the claim. Accurate or not, not important. The clarity is. He makes this abundantly clear ("Shinki is playing so fail with that claim [...] I never saw a cop that didn't want a guilty lynched"). In Vezok ISO#7, Vezok announces that Shinki never outright claimed to be a cop ("

HE NEVER SAID HE IS A COP

"). Consistent with his earlier beliefs, but MacDougall attempts to paint this otherwise, announcing that Vezok was "happy to let us all roll with Shinki being a cop" (no he wasn't) and that he "flip flopped on an important issue." (lolnope). Also note that MacDougall said that "this has been the scummiest player since day 1, gotta go imo." But oh wait, Vezok isn't mentioned until ISO#25 (Day 1) where he's be "willing to vote for Vezok, too" in consideration between DX and Vezok, and then he never votes until ISO#82 (888, the post I'm ripping to shreds right now) on

the third day phase we had.

But the guy has been the scummiest player since Day 1?

MacDougall casted a vote to no-lynch on Day 1 when he wasn't comfortable with the lynch choices. If Vezok has been the scummiest player since Day 1, why did he not try and push a case on him then, instead of voting no-lynch?

Soda today, MacDougall tomorrow, profit.

I'm so far down the rabbit hole of muddled understanding and some of you have tunneled me so far that nothing I do is ever going to pull me free and I've been on the hook for days. Oh well, I'll give it a shot.

"Guys, this defense is laughable?" I didn't even say that, you are taking my words and bending them to your own means.

Called on the what? You are the only one actively defending Vezok so it's not like your opinion is the only opinion floating around. Vezok has very few posts in the game but they are all bad... I agree with your point that he could just be town with no clue, but I still think he's a great lynch candidate. I had a read of Soda's ISO and from the first post he reads badly and a Soda lynch will give us more to work with than a Vezok lynch. Of course that won't be the case if you just assume "MacDougall busing another scum buddy." I don't really care to paint my read clearly because a quick glance at his ISO will give you all the same reads that I now have. Are you suggesting that I am busing Soda? That would mean that my hammer on Empking, my first vote on StrangerCoug and now my wagon vote on Soda are all bus votes. Sure, it's possible that I hate my own team that much but eventually I will run out of teammates if I keep voting to get them lynched. Soda isn't even the vote leader right now, so why would I bus him if he were my teammate?

It's interesting to note that that reads post I made on Vezok was when I was forced to. I'll be the first to admit that I'm not the best (or more experienced) mafia player, especially when it comes to making town posts that seem town. Everything I do as town has a scum tinge and I don't really know why. But I read Vezok as scum. I find it difficult to explain why at times because I make reads more on word choice, phrasing etc. than actual words. Words can be faked, the way it's phrased is much harder to fake. Unfortunately all I can say in response to your breaking of my Vezok argument, is that I read him incorrectly. The first post you quoted read to me like he was suggesting that Shinki was fake claiming cop, while now you have pointed out that he was trying to suggest that Shinki wasn't a cop at all. I'm sure I wasn't alone at the time misreading that. The latter, then seemed to me like a back pedal. I'm sure it's believable that I would read Vezok incorrectly.

Anyway, I'm not scum... But if you're already convinced, you can stop tunneling me now and try to focus on some other players... you might actually find some real scum if you look at someone other than me.

[MacDougall]

Ah right... MacDougall is in this game.

Man I wish I had a double dayvig right now.

And no, Vezok. That is the shittiest logic I have ever seen anyone use. And this isn't your first game. Jesus christ start playing like you have a brain please?

What on Earth does this mean? I make a post pointing out the flaws in Vezok's play so you suggest day vigging both of us while insinuating that I should be day killed for being me and follow it up with having a go at Vezok for poor play?

Am I reading into that correctly?

No. I'm suggesting I would dayvig yourself and SodaSpirit, and simply implying that Vezok's line of thought is flawed.

You've been scumming it up since Day 1, and I've already pointed this kind of thing out. You've pretty much just slid by on flawed logic and a lack of motivation to provide your own proper lines of thought so far in this game.

You're scum, and I know this

, so why don't you just do us a favor and out your buddies?

Lol I know when I flip town you're just gonna be all "well he was playing shit so it's his fault" but I'd just like to say in advance, that you are a genius. Vezok is super scummy but he is a VI so he must be town. MacDougall is a second gamer, with a few teething problems, four times the posts itt and far more useful info than Vezok but he is obvscum.

Genius mafia player this guy. Lynch the active bad town player, keep the lurking bad town player. Solid logic.

[MacDougall]

Sorry I don't quite see in your breakdown how the possibility of a 1 scum team + 1 sk isn't possible?

[MacDougall]

Complete and Total 100% Unfounded Setup Speculation

We have had two anti-town flips - Empking as

Terran mafia

, and StrangerCoug as House Bremburg. Now there are two possible theories to draw here.

Terran Agents Role Cop. Doesn't say Mafia. Why are you assuming Terrans are Mafia?

[MacDougall]

UNVOTE: MattP

As it looks right now, the day will be about lynching either vezok, SodaSpirit or MacDougall. Since the latter is on the frying pan, I am down on voting him.

VOTE: MacDougall

@MacDougall

:

• Why do you keep saying you are a Loyalist ?
• Do you have any alignment changing possibility/abilities ?
• Why in SodaSpirit would be a good lynch for today ?

And please don't use the 'I've already replied to that'-trope, if you already did, quote yourself clearly.

I keep saying I'm a loyalist because I am. In fact, I said I was a loyalist before the mod revealed, conclusively that it was the VT role PM. It's really all I've got to defend myself. I've obviously made posts that make me conclusively scum, since Agar has incessantly pointed out that I am definite scum, so I see no point refuting it despite not being scum, because obviously, as your vote and Agar's response to my defense of myself, the more I defend myself, the worse position I end up in.

Nope, I am vanilla.

SodaSpirit is a better lynch than me because I'm town. SodaSpirit is a better lynch than MattP because he's made more scum posts than MattP, who has seemingly been deflecting random accusations since he walked into the thread with a reserved, measured demeanor. SodaSpirit is a better lynch that Vezok, while seeming scum, has done a lot less reading/posting than SodaSpirit. If we lynch SodaSpirit, town or not town, we should get a better pattern of his remaining team, or at least it might be visible which of the scum unnaturally created reasons to vote for him. In saying that, you could lynch me for the exact same reason, and that'd be okay and understandable. Except I'm not going to actively encourage it, because I know I'm town.

Why are you suggesting that I am on "the frying pan" when yours is the first vote for me?

[MacDougall]

I'm so far down the rabbit hole of muddled understanding and some of you have tunneled me so far that nothing I do is ever going to pull me free and I've been on the hook for days. Oh well, I'll give it a shot.

That's not true at all. But you're going to have to actually, y'know, prove that your town through something other than "OMG I'M TOWN GUYS!" or picking on the easy lynch. Rookie scum mistakes.

Well I can't work out how to explain myself. I have read loads of ISO's but nobody really sticks out to me, except Vezok, who you claim isn't scum. So I'm fucked.

"Guys, this defense is laughable?" I didn't even say that, you are taking my words and bending them to your own means.

I was mocking the fact that you were defending yourself with "OMG I'M TOWN GUYS AND AM I THE ONLY ONE?"

No you weren't, your "this defense is laughable" is in response to me pointing out that the idea of me explaining what the scum would do, is what I've done, and as a result am scum. Which is laughable. As scum, if I have a plan, I wouldn't reveal it as a scum tell on another player for the obvious reason that I'm doing it.

Called on the what? You are the only one actively defending Vezok so it's not like your opinion is the only opinion floating around.

Oh really now.

I said you were called on your bullshit, as in your weak attempt to get Vezok lynched to have an easy lynch. There are three posts calling you on your pisspoor logic.

None of these posts are defending Vezok. They are attacking me for using poor logic, but not once have any of these posters, like you, suggested that Vezok is definite scum. Again you haven't met the point head on. I didn't say "Nobody else has attacked me." Did I? No.

Vezok has very few posts in the game but they are all bad... I agree with your point that he could just be town with no clue, but I still think he's a great lynch candidate.

Could be town. Great lynch candidate.

Could you, y'know, NOT make this so easy?

It sure is easy to paint a town player scum when you take an entire sentence out of context! Sure he COULD be town, so what if he COULD be town! SodaSpirit COULD be town. I AM town. That isn't stopping you from pushing our apple carts. Any lynch candidate ever could be town. This post is baaaaaaaaaad.

I had a read of Soda's ISO and from the first post he reads badly and a Soda lynch will give us more to work with than a Vezok lynch. Of course that won't be the case if you just assume "MacDougall busing another scum buddy." I don't really care to paint my read clearly because a quick glance at his ISO will give you all the same reads that I now have. Are you suggesting that I am busing Soda? That would mean that my hammer on Empking, my first vote on StrangerCoug and now my wagon vote on Soda are all bus votes. Sure, it's possible that I hate my own team that much but eventually I will run out of teammates if I keep voting to get them lynched. Soda isn't even the vote leader right now, so why would I bus him if he were my teammate?

- You conveniently read Soda's ISO after Vezok's lynch support all but failed. -

I had read Soda's ISO before, I read it again for a bit more clarity.

- Actually, Soda lynch will still give us more to work with than a Vezok lynch, because Soda is more likely to be town. -

Okay, so now you flip flop. You are suggesting that lynching Soda is a better lynch because he is more likely to be town. Yet up there, you lambaste me for the same thing.

- So you want a lynch.... without putting effort in. -

Well No Lynch pretty clearly is even worse. You said before that I'm supposed to find someone to lynch, try to get them lynched, and then inevitably fall on a wagon. I'm following your protocol Agar and you are attacking me for it.

- I'm suggesting you could very well be bussing soda. -

Well I'm not, so you are suggesting wrong again.

- No, it would mean that one of either your hammer on Empking or your

2nd

(key point here) "follow-the-cop" vote on StrangerCoug was bussing (either is a prime bus vote) and then your vote on Soda could be a bus, or could be multiball scum-on-different-scum action. -

Why is the fact that my vote was after Shinki a key point to you? Sure it points out I was wrong, but how is it a key point about why I'm scum? Shinki didn't even want SC lynched! Voted for him and told everyone else to vote for me. You haven't proceeded to explore why me following the town gunsmith into voting for a scum makes me scum. Okay so I could have "bussed" StrangerCoug, who in that case would be one of my scum teams power roles. But that would mean that I took the lynch off myself, to put it on him. Why the hell would I do that? Sure, I could be a power role for my team too, but the chances of that are unlikely, and even still, I was further down the lynch path than him so taking the wagon off me to put it on him? Not on your life. Hammering Empking, well I can't really make the same argument. I legit didn't think he was scum, didn't want him lynched, but hammered anyway because it was gonna happen anyway. Terrible town play, and I deserve criticism for it.

- Besides, I bussed all 3 of my partners aggressively in one game (and then proceeded to pretty much coast on massive town-cred), and have a habit of "KILL ALL PARTNERS" syndrome when I'm scum. It happens, it's not as unlikely as you think.

This last sentence reads like you are talking to a town player. If you really believed I bused my whole team I can't see you wording it that way. I can't even see you saying that to someone you legit thought was scum busing.

It's interesting to note that that reads post I made on Vezok was when I was forced to. I'll be the first to admit that I'm not the best (or more experienced) mafia player, especially when it comes to making town posts that seem town. Everything I do as town has a scum tinge and I don't really know why. But I read Vezok as scum. I find it difficult to explain why at times because I make reads more on word choice, phrasing etc. than actual words. Words can be faked, the way it's phrased is much harder to fake. Unfortunately all I can say in response to your breaking of my Vezok argument, is that I read him incorrectly. The first post you quoted read to me like he was suggesting that Shinki was fake claiming cop, while now you have pointed out that he was trying to suggest that Shinki wasn't a cop at all. I'm sure I wasn't alone at the time misreading that. The latter, then seemed to me like a back pedal. I'm sure it's believable that I would read Vezok incorrectly.

Believable? Yes. It's also believable that you - as scum - saw an open opportunity to try and jump on a player that doesn't play well, but has a higher likelihood of being town than scum, and decided to try and push invalid points as a case against him to get town cred, and didn't expect it to backfire quite like this.

I would definitely imagine your scenario is far less likely, in any sense. My point "I misread him". Your point "Convoluted garbage that only makes sense inside one bubble."

Anyway, I'm not scum... But if you're already convinced, you can stop tunneling me now and try to focus on some other players... you might actually find some real scum if you look at someone other than me.

If you were more focused on "scumhunting" instead of not dying (another scumtell, oh by the way - since scum have a harder time winning when their team dies [osnap]), you'd realized that I've pointed out several players leaning either way on my reads. Manho, town. Peregrine, townish. Vezok, townish. MattP, not likely to be scum so townish. Soda, scum. Magua, scum. I won't give you a list of every read I've got, but I've given you plenty to work with.

It's difficult to focus on "scumhunting" and not dying, when the two go hand in hand. I attempt to scum hunt, you paint it as me trying to move the blame to another player, conclude that player is town, and I'm still scum. Why bother, when I have you undermining every attempt I have at scumhunting on one hand, and on the other demanding I do it?

P-Edit1: Because there were two kills last night, and we've killed two anti-town players from different factions. WOAH. -

There can be other reasons for this. It doesn't conclusively say anything. There could have been a bomb or a double killer... there are loads of things that could be. Granted your scenario is probably a little more likely, but I still wouldn't be conclusively ruling out the other option.

P-Edit2:Because a rolecop isn't a role you give to a lone 3rd party. A lone rolecop is kinda dick since, y'know, he's just a neutral rolecop. No mod would do that unless this was bastard modding - which Wraith did not warn us of.

Okay fair point.

[MacDougall]

So in your world, about-to-be-lynched-SleepyKrew-scum uses up his dayvig because lolswhynot...and doesn't shoot the claimed vigilante? Doesn't shoot an experienced player not on his team like you or StrangerCoug, but shoots samantha?Mmmm. No.Espeonage in ASoIaF's play was also incredibly horribly bad (not just his dayvig play), which is part of the reason he, y'know, lost.

So yourt argument is essentially that SK is so much superior to Espionage + AGM that he couldn't possibly do the same tactic? Sorry, I don't buy that at all.

FOS: Magua

As it happens on sleeping on it I can't evenm remember why I went on SK.

So...

Unvote, Vote: DX

Empking interactions make Magua look pretty scummy. Magua said something that Empking clearly didn't like, and instead of voting for Magua he FOS'd him. Now that Empking is revealed scum, what reason does he have to have done that?

StrangerCoug only has interactions with the dead + Agar & right when he was about to die he seemed to attempt to buddy me.

I'd like to say that SC's interactions with Agar are scummy, but they're not. Aside from them being able to trade accusations at one another without ever leveling a vote, and then Agar jumping on to SC when his other wagon was finally gone, when he is usually so opinionated.

[MacDougall]

Question, if everyone is so positive that SodaSprite is mafia, why are contemplating lynching MacNoodles and eWok? I mean, I'm not saying we

shouldn't

be, but what's all the holdup on the Sprite lynch? Plus, does anyone have any unanswered questions from Sprite, and where the heck is he?

SodaSpirit, Vezok and myself are all suspects and nobody seems to favour one more than the other.

The hold up is that we're still discussing the lynch. Why do you want him lynched so quick? We just had what felt like a fortnight straight of night and you want to go straight back there?

[MacDougall]

@MacDougall

First, please stop the quote walls. They're a nightmare to read, and I'm to the point of just not bothering to respond after this one.

- Get better at explaining yourself. Read ISOs. If Vezok is the only scum player you can find, then you're either scum, not trying, or need to bring a more convincing case on Vezok.
- I think you're confusing two points here. I'm referring to #925. Which was the most pathetic attempt at defending yourself I have ever seen.
- I never said anyone was defending Vezok. I said they called you on your bullshit logic. These are not one in the same.
- No, there's nothing out of context here. You said he could be town, but you think he's a good lynch candidate. If you are not with conviction in a scumread, you need to re-evaluate whether you should continue to push that lynch.
- Only point from this chunk worth addressing is my swapping - Vezok is more likely to be town, Soda is more likely to be scum. Fairly simple point to comprehend, people's minds do move faster than their hands at times. The other responses you make are weak and unsupported, and I'm not going to waste the text space (except you still can't stick to "BUSSING ALL MY PARTNERS" since SC and Emp were

different factions

- Scumhunting and not dying are not "hand-in-hand." When have I once been worried about dying? Shinki didn't seemed to worried about not dying. Nor did Skrew. Averting a mislynch? Understandable, but there comes a point where your focus gravitates too heavily in one way or another, and this is one of those times.
- Also, scumhunt like you actually mean it, and provide valid points, and I'll have nothing to "undermine" now will I?
- Setup spec: 3 kills Night 1. 1 is claimed 1-shot vig. 1 kill night 2, on beloved princess that was fairly obvious. 2 kills on Night 3. Two known anti-town factions. Still thinking bomb or double killer? (Hint: I'm not).

1. Well sorry. I thought it would be the easiest way I could reply to your barrage.

2. Ugh. No dude, you were the one who is mistaken, but it's semantics and I cbf with it. If that's the most pathetic defense you've ever seen, then you've not played much, which isn't true, so you are just being silly.

3. I never said that people were defending Vezok! Can you please read that again. I said that you are the only one defending Vezok, a totally new point. To which you said, 'no here are some posts to read', and the posts weren't people defending Vezok.

4. I said that, but then you went on to say the very same thing about SodaSpirit!

5. .... this isn't worth it anymore. I'm done arguing with you. No matter what I say to defend myself you're just gonna run along with your incorrect read. You know what, you're wrong about me so I'm just gonna assume you're wrong about Soda as well, and MattP and Vezok and return my vote to where it should be.

vote Vezok

[MacDougall]

What I see from the defense of MacDougall :

• He is trying to deflect the lynch unto vezokpiraka. That means he thinks he is valuable than vezokpiraka. He is either a town PR, or a scum.
  
  
• He is using the frustration argument, one I know perfectly. Whereas most of the time, it is used by frustrated townies, it is a general appeal to emotion. It is not an argument but a testimony of weakness.
  
• Whereas he seems to like walls, he isn't prone to quote himself. When you speak the truth, you can quote yourself easily. When you are not ...

What do you think of his last point in #967, and the flaws I pointed out in #968.

Well I'm neither of these things. I am "deflecting" the lynch on Vezok because he's my best guess at scum. I'm not using any construct that you think you have a grasp on otolia. I'm not a mafia playing robot. Not everything I say is capable of being placed into a little box marked scum, or town. I am not purposefully using any "frustration argument", I am merely FRUSTRATED. Which, should realistically be the FIRST conclusion one comes to, when reading someone and saying "hey, this guy seems frustrated", but alas, you think I'm playing instead. Believe what's in front of you. Is that third argument even real? I haven't quoted myself because... why the hell would I? Show me one time you've quoted yourself in this thread Oto. No? Omg you are scum for sure.

As for you Agar, how does me giving up on arguing with you all of a sudden equate to "he definitely scum now". If you really think that, then you aren't as smart as you think you are. I legitimately have had enough of breaking down points with you because it gets me nowhere. You don't believe anything I say and furthermore you use my attempts at defense as new reasons to attack me so why would I bother?

Oh and lolmaguausobadatthissticktobeingdaysk.

Ok.

Daykill: AGar

Before you die, kindly explain where you see PeregrineV as town, because I'm not seeing it, whereas I am seeing MacDougall town. Especially in light of your (correct) vezokpiraka-playing-as-VI-does-not-imply mafia, but you don't apply that same standard to MacDougall even though it's obvious you should.

Peregrine seems to be putting honest effort in. Peregrine is putting out logical thoughts that are easy to follow. This is one of the biggest town-tells out there - you can follow from Point A to Point B what they're thinking and why.

MacDougall as VI? I'm afraid you're confusing caught rookie scum with VI. VI isn't something you establish after one game. You know this. You don't just say "Oh wow, this guy is bad, he's a VI." Vezok plays in a similar manner every single game. If you don't know how to handle VI players by now, that's pretty bad. It's the same for all of them - unless they are acting outrightly scummy in a way that is different from their normal, subpar play, you leave them be and force scum to handle them or let them lead you to their scumbuddies - because they will be apparent after a period of time.

If you think Peregrine is easier to understand than me then fine, but the difference in our diction and clarity is negligible and under no circumstances could you apply that argument to him, and not hold me to the same conditions, because, and I firmly believe this, everything I say/mean is obvious and clear, even possibly MORESO than Peregrine. I'm not speaking in code, I haven't been caught out lying. I could sit here and argue with you all day, because I'm right and you'll never crack me. Just because I don't have the patience/time/skill/ambition/commitment to do so, doesn't mean that you are right. Realistically You just didn't like the way I went about the Empking lynch. That's the only thing I've done that realistically could equate to me being lynched. My thoughts are logical and easy to follow, you just disagree with them.

And to continue, I don't believe I'm a VI. I'm new to the game as you play it but a VI I am not, and eventually I hope to be somewhat competent at the game. Even thought I'm not a VI in my mind, that doesn't mean that I'm caught rookie scum either. It's not like "bad player = caught rookie scum or VI" there's also the third option, which from my limited experience tends to end up being the most likely, which is "accused rookie townie". So, wise guy, I'm afraid, YOU are mistaking "accused rookie townie" with "caught rookie scum".

Anywho... what's the deal here? Has Magua legitimately killed you or was that just some joke I don't get?

[MacDougall]

As for you Agar, how does me giving up on arguing with you all of a sudden equate to "he definitely scum now". If you really think that, then you aren't as smart as you think you are. I legitimately have had enough of breaking down points with you because it gets me nowhere. You don't believe anything I say and furthermore you use my attempts at defense as new reasons to attack me so why would I bother?

Follow me here:

- You open voting Vezok with a case behind it.
- Case on Vezok is torn apart.
- You switch vote to Soda, who is being wagonned. This implies that you are at the very least suspicious of him, but probably believe him to be scum.
- You continue to be pressured by me.
- You assume that because I am supposedly wrong in my read on you, that my reads on EVERYONE MUST BE WRONG, and you unvote the guy you were voting.

So either you didn't believe Soda in the first place to be scum (which only would make sense if you were scum and he was town) or you are simply voting opposite of my reads to spite me or something (which isn't a townie thing to do).

If you think Peregrine is easier to understand than me then fine, but the difference in our diction and clarity is negligible and under no circumstances could you apply that argument to him, and not hold me to the same conditions, because, and I firmly believe this, everything I say/mean is obvious and clear, even possibly MORESO than Peregrine. I'm not speaking in code, I haven't been caught out lying. I could sit here and argue with you all day, because I'm right and you'll never crack me. Just because I don't have the patience/time/skill/ambition/commitment to do so, doesn't mean that you are right. Realistically You just didn't like the way I went about the Empking lynch. That's the only thing I've done that realistically could equate to me being lynched. My thoughts are logical and easy to follow, you just disagree with them.

And to continue, I don't believe I'm a VI. I'm new to the game as you play it but a VI I am not, and eventually I hope to be somewhat competent at the game. Even thought I'm not a VI in my mind, that doesn't mean that I'm caught rookie scum either. It's not like "bad player = caught rookie scum or VI" there's also the third option, which from my limited experience tends to end up being the most likely, which is "accused rookie townie". So, wise guy, I'm afraid, YOU are mistaking "accused rookie townie" with "caught rookie scum".

Anywho... what's the deal here? Has Magua legitimately killed you or was that just some joke I don't get?

Paragraph 1: I don't follow your thought process. Sorry if that wasn't clear. I can follow why Peregrine thinks what he's thinking. Nothing so far he's said has come across as a skewed interpretation of the way things really happened, like I've pointed out several times in your posting. I see logical flaws in your posting, twists on events. And as for the Empking lynch? I don't care how you went about it. The biggest indicator was "I'm not content with any lynches, so I'm voting no-lynch." when you were supposedly so suspicious of Vezok that he was the "scummiest player since D1" (your words, not mine).

Paragraph 2: I don't think you're a VI. Again - and this is what's so bothering me - my read is my read. Sitting there and going "YOU'RE WRONG!" isn't going to change it. You've done nothing so far since I've attacked to give me reason to pause in my belief of you being scum. Your focus has swung back and forth between "AGar is attacking me, I must defend!" and pushing your extremely weak case on Vezok. If you were town, by now you should have been pushing either a more solid case on Vezok, or going after a new suspect (which you should have more than 1) with a case. You aren't doing either, and you're latest flip because "YOUR READ ON ME IS WRONG SO THEY MUST ALL BE WRONG AND I DON'T TRUST MYSELF ENOUGH TO STICK WITH MY OWN READS!" is easily one of the biggest scumslips I've seen. Ever.

Paragraph 3: I believe it was a play on my "lolmaguausobadatthiswhydon'tyoujuststicktobeingadaysk" which was referring to an exceptional performance Magua had earlier this year as a Day SK in a *cough*bastard-mod*cough* large theme game.

You hardly tore my case on Vezok apart. Your case against him being scum is worse than the case for him, even though they're both similar. I changed my vote away from him because it looked likely that no Vezok lynch was going to eventuate.

I switched to Soda because I was suspicious of him, yes.

I said afterwards that I was suspicious of Vezok since day 1, and if you actually have read it, that suspicion came well after I voted no lynch. It was brought to my attention by David Xanatos. I read his ISO after I voted no lynch and decided he looked poor for it. When I voted no lynch, I had no suspicions on anyone except SleepyKrew. I had a town read on David straight away and trusted him, but SleepyKrew looked poor to me, hence my original vote. When it became apparent that he was definitely town, I pulled my vote off him. Unlike everyone else who switched from him to David, I had no reason to believe that it was black/white like that and chose to move my vote to no lynch. Now, I've explained this to you before... but it didn't occur to me to just unvote. It was a simple error. I play on other forums and I didn't realise I could unvote and leave it. In hindsight I did know I could do it but where I play most commonly, the play beckons no lynches frequently (we don't have hammer, we have deadline based lynches). If I had have just unvoted, then this would not even be happening. I had no plans to NOT VOTE. I didn't want a no lynch. I just didn't want my vote on anything at that time, so I thought I had to put it on no lynch.

I find this highly doubtful. If you would read my ISO in a unbias colour then you will find my will rather unwavering. My supposed scumslips you think you've found are nothing more than me getting pissed off with this eternal struggle to redeem myself. Unfortunately, and this has still continued... I don't see scum as clearly as you think you do (which ironically, you don't and will find eventually). If I don't see people running around with their scum dicks hanging out for the world to see, am I supposed to go and find someone who I think is town and just paint them scum? Is that what you're implying? Why is it irrational for you to feel that the scum players are just playing so well than a rookie like myself can't see them? In fact, if I were to take a random pot shot at the scum right now it'd be Team 1 = Vezok and you. Team 2 = SodaSpirit and MattP. If, there are 3/3 mafia teams. MattP hasn't done a great deal to earn my ire, and you are so aggressively tunneling me that if I started trying to paint you scum, you'd shout OMGUS so loud the whole world would hear it. If that's one of the biggest scumslips you've ever seen, then you've seen not a single one, because that's not a scum slip.

[MacDougall]

I dunno, according to Agar it's possible to bus everybody.

[MacDougall]

...Also, what about Soda? Thoughts there?

Soda's meh. I would certainly take his lynch above Otolia or MacDougall, but he's not a top suspect at the moment.

Why did you mention Otolia here? I haven't noticed anybody suggesting Otolia is guilty at all?

[MacDougall]

The last point makes no sense: hammers his partner (loltowncred?) or "someone he would have every right to believe is just as much town as the wagons he was avoiding earlier" - he knows who is town and who isn't

Not if it's a multiscum game he doesn't.

The point was, why vote no lynch? Your theory is (I assume) that he's rookie scum who voted no lynch to avoid being on a town lynch wagon. But that doesn't work because he hammered on Empking. So the question is, did he hammer on Empking because he's Empking's partner? That's not something that rookie scum would ever do. Did he hammer on Empking because he wanted to lynch someone on his team? If so, why do you think he was voting no lynch earlier?

Rookie scum don't bus? Since when? He also hammered Emp after significant push had been made on the Emp wagon, whereas when he unvotes SK, the only wagons are DX and SK, who both had multiple people claiming them as town. Do you not see why a rookie scum - on Emp's team or not - would unvote in that situation?

@MacDougall

Now, I've explained this to you before... but it didn't occur to me to just unvote. It was a simple error. I play on other forums and I didn't realise I could unvote and leave it. In hindsight I did know I could do it but where I play most commonly, the play beckons no lynches frequently (we don't have hammer, we have deadline based lynches). If I had have just unvoted, then this would not even be happening. I had no plans to NOT VOTE. I didn't want a no lynch. I just didn't want my vote on anything at that time, so I thought I had to put it on no lynch.

Except you unvoted from SK in post #344, and then voted to no-lynch in post #444. Check your iso.

I expect an answer in your next post.

Your point? After I voted SK and then decided to unvote him I had been left with nobody firm to put a vote on. I didn't become aware of Vezok until later when David pointed it out because he had posted so fleetingly and pointlessly that his posts had just fallen between the cracks to me.

[MacDougall]

I could support an AGar lynch, or some pressure at least.

Okay then... support it. Tell us why Agar is scum.

[MacDougall]

Now, I've explained this to you before...

but it didn't occur to me to just unvote.

It was a simple error. I play on other forums and I didn't realise I could unvote and leave it. I

n hindsight I did know I could do it but where I play most commonly, the play beckons no lynches frequently

(we don't have hammer, we have deadline based lynches). If I had have just unvoted, then this would not even be happening. I had no plans to NOT VOTE. I didn't want a no lynch. I just didn't want my vote on anything at that time, so I thought I had to put it on no lynch.

Except you unvoted from SK in post #344, and then voted to no-lynch in post #444.

Check your iso.

Your point? After I voted SK and then decided to unvote him I had been left with nobody firm to put a vote on. I didn't become aware of Vezok until later when David pointed it out because he had posted so fleetingly and pointlessly that his posts had just fallen between the cracks to me.

Read the bolded parts.

Then come back to me.

(Hint: You say it "didn't occur to you to unvote [and you voted no lynch instead]" when you moved your vote SK -> unvote -> No Lynch. See the problem here? The context of this line of questioning is not in regards to Vezok, it's in regards to you blatantly voting to No Lynch rather than push a wagon.)

Yeah I see that. I wasn't saying I didn't know that I could unvote, just that the fact that I commonly vote no lynch in the meta at the other forum I play so I and others there usually don't move from a vote to a blank unvote, but rather to a no lynch, in that scenario. Bolded to point out that I mentioned this.

[MacDougall]

This is a good point tbh. He could just be blatantly trying to derail the lynch obvious style.

[MacDougall]

How unfortunate for you that you wasted so much time writing all of that just to make a conclusive scum read on a town player. There is literally not a point you've made that I haven't already had someone else point out and had to explain.

And HOW PRAYTELL does he know that DX was the heir to the throne?

Uhhh because David Xanatos said he was and my role PM insinuated that I was aligned with the rightful heir to the throne, so I threw my support behind him. If you really built your whole case on this read then that sucks for me and the town.

This man reads town. He's showing:
1) Genuine not-knowing that Argelev is a main town force in the game. Scum would probably know this.

Except for the fact that the vanilla town role PM actually mentions House Argelev in it, as pointed out in the OP.

Hellooooo screw scumhunting let's push the claimed 3rd party.
Scum.

Well the alternative at the time was to sit there and throw fuel on the David vs. SleepyKrew fire. Town vs. town it turned out that one.

... I don't really see how set up speculation is scummy. If you look at the time stamps there I posted those during real lulls in the game, just to put stuff out there to move the game along. Agar made the ultimate set up speculation post but he's super town to you. Conflicting ideology.

How so?

Votes were literally falling off him and onto David. I had a town read on David. I trusted that the general public weren't gullible enough to conclusively rule SK as town, so without actually thoroughly reading it, I unvoted him. What can I say... I wasn't really up for scouring the thread at that stage.

Already explained the PHENOMENON of my no lynch vote. Oh the humanity of it.

What makes her play different from Empking's play?

Simple answer is she was posting at the same time as me earlier in the thread and Empking posted while I was afk. Hence I had followed her more stringently than Empking.

Can we lynch this guy already?

For not wanting to lynch a claimed cop? ... okay then.

MacDougall suddenly coming out with content is weird.
Sorry.
Really weird.

Well as a NOOOOOOOOOOOOOB I was planning on just trying to post sparingly and get a feel for the game/learn a bit, but Agar drew me out and forced me to get involved by straight up voting me. Scummy innit. Oh well, it's true.

This is insightful.
Because MacDougall scum would be fighting the votes on him, AND potentially his buddy in the form of SC.

Riiiight, and MacDougall town would be like "hey guys, vote for me yo".

And if she WAS, CLEARLY the correct course of action would be to DRAW ATTENTION to them.
Yep.
Scum.

Well considering I already had a scum read on her, and thought it was a fake claim, your argument isn't so strong.

How on earth is this man town?

I dunno ay, just the role PM I received. Don't really now how that particular post is conclusive. It's just another random ass post.

Wraith confirmed that GREEN is TOWN.
All else is NOT TOWN.

Doesn't necessarily mean that Terrans are mafia. That was more of a breadcrumb post anyway hoping to trip Agar up. I was sort of insinuating that he was Terran and knew more about their role in the game than we do. Being that he haphazardly referred to them as Terran Mafia, when at no stage has that been mentioned. Slightly wifom I guess.

*sigh*... That's the best defense I can muster I guess. I must admit though that I do revel in this and am enjoying it immensely. I could play under suspicion forever, it's my fave... Except for when I'm scum lol. Then I cry and hide.

The worst part of this endeavor is that if I were scum, then my play would make sense and I wouldn't be a VI... but as town you're all going to find me stupid.

[MacDougall]

I think that throughout this game, the fact that my posts have become generally more townish and sensible is a direct reflection of the fact that I've learned a lot. So despite me being in a bit of a quagmire, I'm still rather positive that this has benefited my play in the long run and I hope to not wear the VI hat for long.

[MacDougall]

How unfortunate for you that you wasted so much time writing all of that just to make a conclusive scum read on a town player. There is literally not a point you've made that I haven't already had someone else point out and had to explain.

You DO realize I just replaced into the game, right? And was reading everything for the first time?

I'll address stuff later I'm off to bed now, just wanted to throw that out there.

AGar: Not a problem dude. Been awhile since we last

played

got culted together.

Yeah I know, that's why I said what I said.

Except you unvoted from SK in post #344, and then voted to no-lynch in post #444.

Check your iso.

Your point? After I voted SK and then decided to unvote him I had been left with nobody firm to put a vote on. I didn't become aware of Vezok until later when David pointed it out because he had posted so fleetingly and pointlessly that his posts had just fallen between the cracks to me.

Read the bolded parts.

Then come back to me.

(Hint: You say it "didn't occur to you to unvote [and you voted no lynch instead]" when you moved your vote SK -> unvote -> No Lynch. See the problem here? The context of this line of questioning is not in regards to Vezok, it's in regards to you blatantly voting to No Lynch rather than push a wagon.)

Yeah I see that. I wasn't saying I didn't know that I could unvote, just that the fact that I commonly vote no lynch in the meta at the other forum I play so I and others there usually don't move from a vote to a blank unvote, but rather to a no lynch, in that scenario. Bolded to point out that I mentioned this.

Let's try this again:

You were unsatisfied with both SK and DX lynches. You unvote. Then, 100 gameposts later, you vote no lynch.

Which means either you legitimately wanted a no lynch and are backing off of the position now, or you weren't keeping track of your vote.

So come again - why did you vote No Lynch. Please try and not lie to us this time, it makes finding your buddies that much easier.

I voted no lynch because I didn't want my vote to count for anything at that time and I felt inclined to let the fact that I had no scum read be known to the world. I said this before but I didn't want my vote being somewhere I didn't believe in, in case a lynch occured while I was afk. I popped in to check the progress, saw nothing of note, placed my vote on NO LYNCH, rather than leaving it on the unvote and I really can't explain why... I suppose there may be merit to your idea of me not following my voting. I guess I had forgotten that I had unvoted SleepyKrew, or assumed that I had voted someone else between the posts. Maybe I actually did vote for someone else but my net dropped out and I walked away. Who knows? I didn't think of the fact that it would make me look non commital and scummy, a mistake, granted.

Should I link you to this other forum game to prove the point I am making about no lynches being common there?

There's not much else to say on the matter now I feel. If you have any more questions I'd be shocked. I've spent what feels like a week explaining a thoughtless off the cuff action(s) and it's starting to grind me down. I'll tell you one thing sincerely. I'm 99% sure that if I was scum, I would have been a hell of a lot more careful with my early game actions. I also would most likely have broken or stopped responding by now.

[MacDougall]

I voted no lynch because I didn't want my vote to count for anything at that time and I felt inclined to let the fact that I had no scum read be known to the world. I said this before but I didn't want my vote being somewhere I didn't believe in, in case a lynch occured while I was afk

YOU WERE ALREADY UNVOTED. WHAT I AM ASKING IS WHY IT WAS NECESSARY TO MOVE FROM UNVOTE TO NO LYNCH.

I voted no lynch because I didn't want my vote to count for anything at that time and I felt inclined to let the fact that I had no scum read be known to the world. I said this before but I didn't want my vote being somewhere I didn't believe in, in case a lynch occured while I was afk.

I popped in to check the progress, saw nothing of note, placed my vote on NO LYNCH, rather than leaving it on the unvote and I really can't explain why... I suppose there may be merit to your idea of me not following my voting. I guess I had forgotten that I had unvoted SleepyKrew, or assumed that I had voted someone else between the posts. Maybe I actually did vote for someone else but my net dropped out and I walked away. Who knows? I didn't think of the fact that it would make me look non commital and scummy, a mistake, granted.

Should I link you to this other forum game to prove the point I am making about no lynches being common there?

There's not much else to say on the matter now I feel. If you have any more questions I'd be shocked. I've spent what feels like a week explaining a thoughtless off the cuff action(s) and it's starting to grind me down. I'll tell you one thing sincerely. I'm 99% sure that if I was scum, I would have been a hell of a lot more careful with my early game actions. I also would most likely have broken or stopped responding by now.

Sorry, that's the best I've got. Perhaps you should try reading entire posts in future before you make rude posts like that.

[MacDougall]

I'm not gonna play that game with you Agar when you are like a no read to me. All of my scumread on you I keep putting down to OMGUS and I'm not willing to justify allowing myself to be lynched just to have you lynched tomorrow, and allow the other, more scummy players, a free ride.

If you want to lynch me fine, but my dying request won't be for Agar's lynch. It will be for Vezok's.

[MacDougall]

Also, I'm a bit concerned how AGar says it's either him or Mcdougall. I want both of them to claim now. If needbe I can claim with them as well.

MattP- why do you think i'm scum?

There's no need for me to claim at this point. I'm not being lynched today, MacDougall is.

I'm not gonna play that game with you Agar when you are like a no read to me. All of my scumread on you I keep putting down to OMGUS and I'm not willing to justify allowing myself to be lynched just to have you lynched tomorrow, and allow the other, more scummy players, a free ride.

If you want to lynch me fine, but my dying request won't be for Agar's lynch. It will be for Vezok's.

Thanks scum, this is all I needed to see.

Lol typical. So in your weirdo world a town player would go along with your idea with a town read on you? You're starting to fall apart Agar.

[MacDougall]

Well since you seem to WANT me to have a scum read on you, I'll try to entertain you... Let's see what your wiki comes up with, because your play in this game is pretty legit aside from tunneling me...

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go - In this scum game you can see he is incredibly aggressive and scum hunts like a dragon. He gets a "scum read" on Vezok and just doesn't let go. He aggressively reads people scum and his play borderlines on abusive. This read is AWFULLY familiar to me.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... er_sort=Go - Here's a town one. Low content and no walls. Doesn't really last long in this game though...

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go - Here's a mini theme scum game of his. Oh look, again he is super aggressive, posts loads of walls and his play borderlines on abusive.

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go - A town mini theme. Here is somewhat more aggressive but still reads less committed. His words per post are still drastically less than either of the scum games. As town he self hammers?

I only clicked four randomly mind you.

Anyway... I feel like I am displaying the patience of a saint here, but if the rest of you REALLY want to lynch me just to lynch him afterwards, I suppose I could get some sick pleasure out of it. Go ahead.

[MacDougall]

Lol okay.

Agar - town
Andrius - town
Bogre - town
EtherealCookie - town
kdowns - town
Magua - town
manho - scum
MattP - town
Nero Cain - town
Otolia - town
PeregrineV - scum
SodaSpirit17 - scum
Vezok - scum
whispersilk - town

[MacDougall]

Manho hasn't done anything of note all game. I just glanced at his name and took a shot in the dark on him being scum

Except for the fact that the vanilla town role PM actually mentions House Argelev in it, as pointed out in the OP.

Scum would know this because they'd probably have fakeclaims and buddies to go "hey guys yadda ya Argelev is town".

What the heck are you talking about anyway? The OP ... has a sample PM ... that suggests that Argelev is town. Everybody knows that Argelev is town.

Well the alternative at the time was to sit there and throw fuel on the David vs. SleepyKrew fire. Town vs. town it turned out that one.

And, at the time, you just happened to know they were both town?

I've seen town v town before. I read it as town v town. Can't blame me for being right about something. I don't care for your insinuation here tbh because I can't argue it.

]

... I don't really see how set up speculation is scummy. If you look at the time stamps there I posted those during real lulls in the game, just to put stuff out there to move the game along. Agar made the ultimate set up speculation post but he's super town to you. Conflicting ideology.

Your posts FOCUSED on setup speculation. Little analysis. IIOA. You kept putting forth information (unconfirmed setup info, be sure to note) rather than actually contributing something new.

AGar is town for other reasons than just one. As you are scum for more than one.

[/quote]

I was excited and wondering out loud about the set up. Read that part again and tell me how that, and the consequent reactions to my set up ideas being burned are scummy to you?

Already explained the PHENOMENON of my no lynch vote. Oh the humanity of it.

Mind reposting it one more time? Because No Lynch DAY ONE is never a good idea.

I EXPLAINED IT AGAIN SINCE I LAST POSTED THIS. JUST READ THE THREAD!

Well as a NOOOOOOOOOOOOOB I was planning on just trying to post sparingly and get a feel for the game/learn a bit, but Agar drew me out and forced me to get involved by straight up voting me. Scummy innit. Oh well, it's true.

You tell me of all the games you've played on this site.
Now. Because you're "im a n00b and too afraid to come out guns blazing and wait to 'learn a bit'".

They're all in my wiki mate. Just read it. All ONE of them. And I was killed on night 2, and as you can see I had a very similar experience in that game as I'm having in this one...

Doesn't necessarily mean that Terrans are mafia. That was more of a breadcrumb post anyway hoping to trip Agar up. I was sort of insinuating that he was Terran and knew more about their role in the game than we do. Being that he haphazardly referred to them as Terran Mafia, when at no stage has that been mentioned. Slightly wifom I guess.

Sooooo how does anyone NOT flipping Loyalist/Argelev and NOT GREEN town?

I never said they were possibly town. They could be a cult. They could be a rogue team. They could be a second town faction?
[/quote]

I think you should all just lynch me now so I can stop wasting my time defending myself.

[MacDougall]

Well since you seem to WANT me to have a scum read on you, I'll try to entertain you... Let's see what your wiki comes up with, because your play in this game is pretty legit aside from tunneling me...

Making a case because someone wants you to is both pandering to the desires of others and hypocritical (if you think he's pretty legit, than how can you have any sort of belief in the case you made?)

Well excuse me for trying to find fault with the guy who has been aggressively trying to get rid of me since opening post of day 2.

[MacDougall]

unvote
vote Soda

[MacDougall]

unvote

[MacDougall]

No reason really.

vote Soda

[MacDougall]

vote Andrius

Your wondrous walls of text may distract others, but not me.

[MacDougall]

Ahh just get rid of me already.

[MacDougall]

Look, believe it or not, I'm not scum. I say get rid of me already because I've just been useless and dumb all game and if you're going to lynch me, make it quick so you can move on with the game. You're not gonna get any scum buddies out of me because I have none. I've said it all along, I am House Morvanus, a loyalist, from Anoria. You're gonna lynch me now and then loyalists will lose the game by tomorrow because of it by my count. Whatever. Level the blame at me after it happens if you wish.

Agar, Andrius, Manho and Vezok are the scum imo. Whether there are two teams, or one.

[MacDougall]

I'm getting lynched. I don't have to explain anything I say, because it won't save me. From what I can tell, three more loyalists will be dead by sunrise tomorrow. I'll boldly predict that yet again Agar and you somehow avoid the night kill.

That's also something to consider. Not once has Agar been seriously called into question here. And after my play late game yesterday came off poorly it was obvious I was about to be lynched. If I was scum, wouldn't I have killed Agar? You bet I would have...

So yeah, basically don't buy into Andrius's super lame game. One or both of his little "obv town champions" are scum. Come up with your own thoughts. Don't play follow the leader. It's making it too easy for them.

[MacDougall]

Hey Andrius. What's your house?

[MacDougall]

I'm not a god damned VI, I'm a noob. There is a difference. DON'T CALL ME AN IDIOT DAMMIT!!

*breaks things*

[MacDougall]

I really don't know why you are all so adamantly disregarding the possibility of Agar. It's odd. Whispersilk is dead and you'll notice he had a scum read on Agar. Agar is alive despite tunneling me all game. I (and any scum buddy worth salt) would expect me to be lynched today, so why would I waste another second not killing Agar overnight, and instead kill Otolia or Whispersilk? Whispersilk is one of very few players that has had a town read on me, and Otolia, while having a scum read on me, has been far more approachable on the subject than Agar. If I was scum, Agar would be dead. Wifom, or not.

[MacDougall]

Well... I was kind of relying on Soda flipping scum yesterday tbh lol. It was a sort of last ditch effort to get some town cred. Miserable fail I know.

[MacDougall]

Pre-Edit: It's not a scum slip when it's coming from a town player who has no town cred. Stop reaching.

So I'm at L-1?

Alrighty then, time for some good old fashioned role play.

For years I've sworn fealty to the true crown. Despite the games played at the expense of it's honour I always felt it necessary for the good of the realm, that the crown remain strong and in control of the people. I've never been one to hide my feelings, whether they amounted to truisms or the most embarrassing of falsehoods and I suppose that has been to my detriment. But my resolve never broke. Wavered? Sure! At times I felt compelled to fall upon my sword but when it came down to it, never did I once kneel! My only regret was that I was too sincere, and my role as a loyal leader of men I played my cards too straight. I do not regret the actions, more the decisions. I hope for a miracle now. That someone, still loyal, sees me for who I am. But a foolish old man.

[MacDougall]

Oh well, if you think that, then prepare to change your thought process.

Lol I was having fun playing it role play at first but then SleepyKrew came in posting like a beat up chav wife so it kind of killed it for me.

[MacDougall]

Lol forgive me but I find it hard to read, or make a compelling case against the one guy who has read me as strictly town the whole time lol.

[MacDougall]

Oh...

Well that sucks.

[MacDougall]

I tried to tell you all the whole time but I really am VT.

[MacDougall]

Anywho thanks for playin'.

[MacDougall]

OH!

Well then.

That's good, if not slightly embarrassing.

[MacDougall]

Kdowns is really annoying me now. The last time he posted anything useful other than votes was over a month ago. Why bother even being here. You should have just asked to be traded out if that's your contribution.

[MacDougall]

Wraith couldn't find a replacement?

[MacDougall]

lol @ Macs OMGUS on Andy after calling him town yesterday.

Agar - town
Andrius - town
manho - scum
Vezok - scum

.
Agar, Andrius, Manho and Vezok are the scum imo.

So why not vote for Vez or mannho?

Because I am on the way out and Vez and Manho are easy targets while Agar and Andrius have been able to coast and I figure I'm better off making one of them squirm at the last than just levelling a useless vote at the easy targets. Do you realise that in this entire game you haven't quoted/mentioned Agar once? He has posted more than anyone yet you've managed to avoid posting his name at all. The only time you have was in quoting my post right here. Conversely he has interacted with you once. Neither of you have prodded, read, inferred or even defended the other.

And besides... no matter who I vote for it would almost invariable be OMGUS lol.

[MacDougall]

Pre-edit, I had written this before you wrote that but I'll leave it after this I suppose. Forgive me, I'm actually at L-1 now and I don't want to be lynched.

Agar: OMGUS aside, he is probably town. He has posted bucketloads and his lack of tact could only be a vanilla townie.

Andrius: At least he is being helpful. Also probably town.

Bogre: 11 posts. Read like his wincon is in opposition to towns imo.

EtherealCookie: Gotta be town. He is being fair and just and hasn't really shown favour to anybody.

Kdowns: If he wasn't confirmed town from day 1 then I'd be sure he was scum. Can I get a clarification on why he is town again?

Magua: Has no friends in this game, must be town.

Manho:

finally catch up. i've read all the post except that wall by andrius.

i think agar vs macdougall is town v town.

and soda is still scum. no idea about the others for now. will have a more detailed read later.

vote: MacDougall

Aside from this, he reads similarly to Bogre, in that he doesn't seem to be doing any real scumhunting and is inclined to just coast on the work of others.

MattP: At first, he seemed to be in a similar situation to mine, but I now realise he has literally gone the easy lynch every time. Has been on all the wagons and is just coasting. Somehow squirms off the hook when confronted. Probscum.

Nero Cain: See above. Prob town, but has been coasting and could be scum.
PeregrineV: From my read, seems the most likely to have targeted Otolia for a kill. Has the most interactions with him and they are all oppositional. Probscum.

Vezok: Honestly, who knows. Flip a coin.

Wraith: Writes good flavour. Melikes.

That's my brain.

vote Bogre

cuz someone has to eventually right?

[MacDougall]

Dougall.
Please.
Just be quiet for awhile.
I need time to think and you taking jabs at anyone and everyone isn't helping clarity. --;

Need to sleep now.

Lol actually, no way! I'm at L-1 and you want me to stop posting and you're gonna go to sleep? Wtf is that all about?

[MacDougall]

Hey PeregrineV, say something.

[MacDougall]

i'm of house argelev and loyalist.

Does anybody else feel that Manho's original claim is now obviously a lie?

[MacDougall]

Well at that stage I was too confused to vote for anyone. I'll vote for someone eventually. I just wanted my vote on no lynch in case the day ended before I came back because I didn't want to be on anyone.

^^^^^^^^^
looks like noob scum trying to justify not being on a potential mislynch.

540 is a potential defense and fense sitting on EMP.

551 is info fishing.

Hammers Emp anyways.


flip flopping and hammering on Soda.

The first point has been hammered out time and time again, but I think it's basically WIFOM whether it's new town or new scum. The next points, waffling and hammering Empking I can see scum motivation for, especially new scum motivation, to be sure to be on the wagon and to try and get town points on that.

The Soda thing is strange too, because it essentially he was always on the leading wagons and coming in late to blast someone away, just because? Yeah, strange.

You know except for the StrangerCoug lynch... in which I was second to vote when I was the vote leader. So if I'm SC's scum buddy then I basically just turned me getting lynched into him getting lynched. Or if I'm Empking's, I hammered him after defending him... I'd like to think that rules out me being StrangerCoug's scum buddy. I know it's just my word but I wouldn't have hammered OR defended Empking if I was his partner... Especially as a new guy. I would have just stayed the hell away from it, or even bussed him earlier. But again, just my word.

[MacDougall]

Haha yeah kinda I guess. I thought I had written loyalist but I hadn't explicitly said loyalist. I had just used the word loyal to describe myself in one of the first posts I made. As for the second question... that was kind of my question too o_O.

[MacDougall]

Oh the wincon question. Uhhh no my wincon says that I win when all threats to House Argelev and it's loyalists are defeated. I believed David was the rightful House Argelev heir at the time... Doesn't that make sense?

[MacDougall]

The reason was because I realised I hadn't actually written loyalist despite thinking I had. Oops. What I had done is post my wincon (and what I feel is the town wincon) before the loyalist role was in the OP, but that's past proving now unfortunately and not really in the spirit of the game anyway.

The second question was actually your third one, my bad. "How is he confirmed town?" was the q.

As for your other suggestion. At first I didn't have a town read on him but eventually did and removed my vote accordingly. You say "despite the fact that you felt Sleepy was town you voted for him", which is not true, I thought he was a threat to House Argelev and voted for him. My wincon says nothing about not lynching players you think are town, it says defeat threats to the House and the loyalists. As an aside, I actually thought he was scum at that stage. I had read David as a particularly important character (due to him saying so and me simply believing him) and SleepyKrew was pushing a wagon on David. It became apparent later that he was town when votes started falling off him and others were saying so vociferously and with my original town read on David it became town v town to me. It was about that stage that the votes were also falling off David and SleepyKrew was aiming at others as well so he wasn't worrying me anymore so I removed my vote on him.

[MacDougall]

And before you say ...

"Oh so you avoided my questions because you were afraid you'd be caught out lying"... Let me save you the effort and say ... sorta. I was afraid of being caught out being wrong, not really lying because I actually thought I had said I was a loyalist and I just wanted you to leave me alone . Honestly though if that's enough to lynch me then go ahead. Do remember that I've been at L-1 and could have self hammered by now, and if I had mafia teammates they probably would have had me self hammer by now, but HEY, [sarcasm] I've been scum since day 1 right [/sarcasm].

Plenty of time to lynch me though, go prod someone else and see if you can find some real scum while we wait.

[MacDougall]

Lol Wraith is the mod dude.

[MacDougall]

Can you please lynch me town? I think that Agar is a good town player but for some reason my play is just wrecking his mind and preventing him from scum hunting well. I doubt anyone but me is going to get lynched anyway and the only way the remaining scum will get outed is upon my lynch. Personally I think that manho, bogre and MattP are definitely scum now. The three of them have been absurdly quiet for day 5 and have just allowed the Nero/Agar/Andrius mob to run roughshod over everyone who's dared speak against them. That being said, I'm better off gone, town or not.

[MacDougall]

Lol you haven't even voted for me yet.

[MacDougall]

EC: Town
Vezok: Scum
Bogre: Scum
Magua: not sure, I wanna say town but I had a scum read on him before he started defending me, kind of reverse OMGUS lol.

[MacDougall]

So what if I've called you scum. That's just another way of deducing whether you are is it not?

What do you mean my "I don't want to be lynched"... I literally asked you all to lynch me. U mad?

He reads in opposition to town because he simply hasn't scum hunted at all. He's done nothing. Played like he has his own game i.e scum.

By friends, I meant allies, obviously.

Why do I have to talk about someone to have a scum read on them? I read his ISO and deduced that he was scum... and that makes me a hypocrite? Again, u mad?

Bogre has coasted all game on 11 friggin' posts mate. I want to pressure him. Why are you so against this? Is he your scum buddy?

My wtf wasn't directed at your need for sleep. It was directed at your need for me to not post while you sleep. Again, u mad?

...

And after me having a scum read on manho and that being an issue, you now have a scum read on him.

You're trippin'. Buddy and are close to my scum list.

[MacDougall]

AGAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHH

You're alright mate.

[MacDougall]

Lol Magua... EC... just lynch me ffs. You're not going to convince everybody else to get off my wagon AGAIN and besides... if I somehow survive this round, then I'll be numero uno suspect tomorrow anyway and we'll be back to this shit situation. I'm at L-2. Just do it.

[MacDougall]

Keep in mind I'm pretty sure Andrius also thinks you are scum Magua. Or at least did...

[MacDougall]

Well if we aren't getting a MacDougall lynch, I propose an Andrius or Magua lynch.

[MacDougall]

Well certainly not! It would be much better for town if one of Andrius or Magua were lynched imo. In saying that, I don't see that happening and I am worth lynching more than manho, Vezok, MattP or Bogre (even though I have my vote on him) because they would be easy lynches and none of them have done enough to really reveal anything about any other players.

I'm sorry Agar, are you suggesting that my wanting an Andrius or Magua lynch is dumb shit?

[MacDougall]

Ooooh I'm at L-1 you guys!

[MacDougall]

L-1 again! I can role reveal again!

I am the Lord of House Morvanus, rulers of the great city of Mos Anor and the lands of Anoria. I am the coolest motherfucker in all the lands and if you lynch me the Beran will cry tears like none before.

[MacDougall]

You are trying really hard to buddy Agar.

[MacDougall]

No I'm not a BP. I'm a VT. I'm just cool.

[MacDougall]

L-1 again! I can role reveal again!

I am the Lord of House Morvanus, rulers of the great city of Mos Anor and the lands of Anoria. I am the coolest motherfucker in all the lands and if you lynch me the Beran will cry tears like none before.

So you are the second BP? Now die please.

And if you want me dead, then hammer me you fool! You better hurry up! The longer it takes the more scummy you look pal.

[MacDougall]

Well certainly not! It would be much better for town if one of Andrius or Magua were lynched imo. In saying that, I don't see that happening and I am worth lynching more than manho, Vezok, MattP or Bogre (even though I have my vote on him) because they would be easy lynches and none of them have done enough to really reveal anything about any other players.

To me you were continuously asking to be lynched and "the only way the remaining scum will get outed is upon my lynch." seems a whole hecka lot like you believed lynching you was in our best interest. So to me this just looks like a buncha

ATE

bull


Mac, Manho, EC, Vezok

Okay well I do think that me getting lynched is a better move than a likely alternative and seems very likely to happen, hence why I was asking. As for it being THE BEST LYNCH, then no, because the best lynch would be scum obviously.

[MacDougall]

It's not really the done thing for a town player to self hammer right?

I really want to though.

[MacDougall]

Good to know!

[MacDougall]

Oh my God I want to hammer myself so hard just to make Agar look stupid.

[MacDougall]

Why is a Vezok lynch better than a me lynch? Explain what he has done that I haven't.

[MacDougall]

I'm sorry Agar, are you suggesting that my wanting an Andrius or Magua lynch is dumb shit?

I'm suggesting that going "LOLZ LETS LYNCH THEM INSTEAD" and being generally facetious about the game is dumb shit.

Hey AGar what do you think of EC_NonBlueScum?

I see EC-Scum. I haven't tried to pin him down to a particular faction, I'd just rather kill

all of the scums

.

@TOWN

Ok, let's sit down for a second. We need to fucking focus. This "OMG HE DID X LITTLE MINISCULE THING, VOTE!" shit needs to fucking stop. Now. Think about this. It's Day fucking 5. Not 1. Not 2. 5. We need to be pushing CONCRETE cases against people that can be listed off in a convincing manner. If you want someone lynched, you'd better be fucking pushing a solid case with an actual effort to get that bastard lynched. No more "LOLZ VOTES FOR PRESSURE!!!" Quit the ADD, cut the shit and start playing like you actually plan on fucking winning and not just jumping at every little twitch. Note these things, put them down and point them out, but for the love of god do not just go fucking ADD with your vote. MacDougall should be DEAD by all rights at this point. He's been at L-1 multiple times. He should have been at L-0 and lynched to death. Get your shit together please.

You do realize that this is your primary case on MacDougall? He voted No Lynch at some point day 1, thereby proving himself to be "newbscum instead of just new."

You do realize that that is not my only case against MacDougall?

- General non-committal attitude on Day 1, enforced by the no-lynch vote, but also proven through apprehensiveness about making concrete statements and decisions.
- Overall lack of proactive and forward thinking play throughout the entire game, content to sit and ride on the coattails of others
- Early choosing of weak or easy targets as his "lynch preferences" rather than actively scumhunting.
- Lack of confidence in his own play or reads, leading me to believe that they are simply made up. See his post where he decides that because my read on him is wrong, that my read on other players must be wrong too (even a player he was voting for - implying that he believed that player was scum) and switching his vote from a player we mutually read to be scum to a player I felt to be town because all of my reads must be the opposite -

even though he had casted a vote for a player he had read to be scum, my opinion so greatly influenced his reads to cause him to lose confidence in that read.

1. I'm a noob.

2. I'm a noob.

3. And you have had me as your primary lynch candidate ever day since day 2. I'd say I'm pretty weak so I guess you're scum. Your idea of scumhunting is to make a giant case against me and every now and then accuse someone who defends me of being scum as well or off handedly suggest someone else is scum but ultimately return to me.

4. Haha you have got to be kidding. For a start, I switched it to Vezok because he's scummy as fuck AND because you have a town read on him, not just because of the latter. Your reads suck so I think it's fair. Furthermore how on Earth does doing something just to spite you make me scum? I did it to spite you because you are just incorrigibly tunneling me and no matter what I do, or what I say, you won't change your mind. I said that to you 2 weeks ago and you said "not really, why don't you just find some scum" so I did, and you broke down THAT post and made a case against it... That was when I snapped and did that. Consider why it's been so hard to get me lynched... If I was scum, I would have ONE ally (assuming there are two teams) and they would have bussed me by now. Maybe someone has a cop ID on me or something similar but don't want to reveal themselves? Maybe the other scum team have a cop ID on me and know that I'm town and are defending me for town cred? Or maybe you are alone in your adamant read. You are being stubborn and if I do get lynched you are going to look very wrong. Every player on my wagon except for you, Andrius and Nero Cain have voted for me on YOUR cases.

And the more I think about it, the more I feel that Andrius is buddying you. Andrius being scum and you being a townie blind to the real scum. It all goes back to when he disagreed with your suggestion of 1v1ing me. There was something about that that just reeked of scum buddying.

vote Andrius

[MacDougall]

And really... you get prodded to make a full case on me and THAT is the best you can come up with? Four days of insistent tunneling and wagoning and THAT!? I thought you had some treasure trove of bullshit ready to unleash when prodded but your if your case comes down to that then it's nothing more than an overblown gut call.

[MacDougall]

I didn't call Agar scum. I called Andrius scum. And just because her reads suck right now doesn't mean they always do.

I'm pretty obviously more interested in finding scum than you Agar. You're only interested in having me lynched. I was unaware that the towns win-con was "get MacDougall lynched". At least I am looking at everyone with the same rationale.

[MacDougall]

And Agar is male. Why did you call him her?

[MacDougall]

I wasn't CALLING Agar scum. I was insinuating that if you Agar were to use the same justification on me as on himself, then he would have a scum read on himself.

[MacDougall]

Lol why bother. You're just going to come up with the same thing you have every other time.

[MacDougall]

Vezok is an easy lynch. Vezok flipping one way or the other tells us nothing. Andrius on the other hand...

[MacDougall]

Well it says male under his avatar...

[MacDougall]

Have I got the prize for something to do with being close to being lynched but not lynched yet?

[MacDougall]

How can you say that Agars reads suck while also calling her a good town player and calling her scum just now?

I'm a dude... dude.

I was unaware that the towns win-con was "get MacDougall lynched". At least I am looking at everyone with the same rationale.

Lynching scum furthers the town's win-con by killing threats to the town. Derp.

Besides. Voting for Player A, then deciding that because Player B has a wrong read on you that your personal read on Player A is wrong - because it is in sync with Player B's read - is so ass backwards and NOT scumhunting, it's ridiculous.

I didn't do any of that junk you're suggesting. Everything you suggest is junk. You're entire read is junk. I'm not responding to you anymore because you are so full of shit.

[MacDougall]

Nice town post you quoted there.

[MacDougall]

You already had your vote on me Matt.

[MacDougall]

I thought Matt was town but this new stuff by him has made me have a re-read and I no longer feel that way. The following is a post by post on why MattP is scum. Enjoy.

So Shinki wasn't detective then. O.o Well, that's surprising.

First off the block I choose this quote. It's light hearted enough but I don't see much town in it. Sure it may have been surprising (I disagree) but really, what's the point in saying it?

I know what he is saying. We have played on another forum together where I am more aggressive. Since I am not playing that way I assume he thinks I am scummy. However, the reason I am not playing that way is because I don't know anyone here and am more reluctant to play the way I am comfortable playing yet.

I don't buy this explanation at all. Who in their right mind would care about this to the extent you are indicating. You should play with whatever style you are comfortable with, no matter what. There's literally no reason to play a way other than what makes you comfortable. Unless you're afraid that you'll attract negative attention by playing your usual aggressive way... and as a town player it really shouldn't bother you too much if you draw a little bad press. Only scum would fear their reveal that much.

My vote on Empking was my first post because I was unable to get online and post before that due to RL. After reading up I decided that Empking was the best choice, and guess what? He was scum.

My vote on Shinki was not a vote to actually get her lynched, it was a vote because apparently on this forum when people want to get a response from someone they vote for them to spur them to do so. I had a question for her I wanted answered, I was just following how everyone else does it.

My vote on MacDougall? That was not a bad vote. I said explicitly in the post where I voted that I was doing so based on previous conversatin about him and outlined the posts that convinced me.

Well my whole thing is you said you found Emp the scummiest but you didn't show any work. For all I know it was a bus on your buddy for town cred.

Your Shinki vote makes a little more sense here. Still don't understand what 125 had to do with it though. Did you find this post scummy? Why did you not mention anything about it on day 1.

Mac is scummy to me. Your questioning Shinki about the East when you line of reasoning was "Emp was scum from the east* so it deff looked like an attempt to stall/derail the Mac lynch. I called you on it. You then voted Mac with reasoning from pages ago that you supposedly already read.

For Empking I simply agreed with everyone and was, I admit, a little bit overwhelmed with the activity and not knowing anyone and was very busy so did not have time to analyze every post he made. I've been attempting to put my feet in the water more. However, the most obvious scum points I felt were already illustrated and didn't see any need to be redundant.

I didn't mention anything about Shinki's post on day 1 because I had not read through everything. I fully admit that. It was only after I went back that it made me question his town-ness

I stalled the vote on Mac. I 100% admit that. That is because I like having an idea of both sides before deciding who to vote for. Shinki was being rude and was telling MacDougall that she won't answer his questions, which I thought were valid, because she doesn't have to. I thought that was a stupid reason not to answer questions. Therefore, I thought if I added extra pressure for a response she would give one, and she did. I thought her response was townish and as a result backed off.

I don't buy it. Her response wasn't reciprocating to either of us at all, aside from saying "meh Wraith said we can't answer it" which wasn't explicitly true for the question I asked she more or less blew you off again and that makes her response townish and is enough for you to back off? I see it as more that you took the OPPORTUNITY to back off on something you thought was drawing you negative attention.

Let's do this.

Proposed Alliance Voting Bloc:

AGar
Cookie
Andrius
Nero Cain
PeregrineV
kdowns
(vezok?)

First off,

Vote: MacDougall

Reason:

Callingvout Andrius with no reasoning, has been accused time and time again for being mafia, I already stated I think he is at the very least indie, so in any case it's worth the kill, since we're pretty down right now.

Second off, proposed alliance voting bloc? Waddya mean exactly?

So your case boils down to me calling out Andrius for no reason, yet in an earlier post you said that you voted for someone (Shinki) just to get her to respond to you. So you did the same thing as me, but I'm scum? Other than that, all you've got is that I've been accused time and time again... And this follows you changing a scum read on me, to a town one... You've flip flopped on me so much it's absurd. Look at Agar. Agar says I'm scum and sticks with it. He doesn't change his opinion to suit the game. You do. That's why you are scum and he is most likely not.

MattP: At first, he seemed to be in a similar situation to mine, but I now realise he has literally gone the easy lynch every time. Has been on all the wagons and is just coasting. Somehow squirms off the hook when confronted. Probscum.

First off, I am pretty sure I was the first or second vote for Soda (not that that's a good thing, just saying I don't coast). Other votes I provided reasoning for.

Second,

Unvote: MacDougall

I think you saying you were VT was genuine. Pretty damn positive MacDougall is town.

Bogre, why are you so damn quiet all round may I ask?

O_o

So you defended me. Then you voted me. Then you defended me. Then you voted me. Here you are defending me again... And this time you are DAMN POSITIVE that I'm town... yet as we speak you are asking to be handed a hammer... Sure you're inclined to change reads, hell I do it, everyone does it (except Agar lol) but not to this extent and not for the reasons you say...

Also, this is the first week since playing that I dont have anything to study for so I'll have oodles of time. I will get up an analysis of every remaining player this weekend (besides Andrius and MacDougall, since the thing that changed my opinion of MacDougall was one post I already showed, and I already explained my opinion on Andrius which has remained the same).

After reading through I think that EC/MacDougall/Magua makes the most sense as scum, with Andrius, manho, Agar, Peregrine, Nero Cain being town. Kdowns and Vezok are OMGUS but town probably, Bogre needs to post more, can be scum or cannot be.

I will really try to get out the whys of all of these reads but I have to get up at 8 for class and it's already past 3. I'll try my best to get it done tomorrow. Already told you all I have a busy next two weeks. :/

With that being said,

Vote: Macdougall

Okay this is balls. Magua and EC short of some ridic gambit are not scumbuddies, so for us three to be on a team makes no sense and nobody who reads through is going to feel that way. The general consensus is that there is two scum teams but you are suggesting here that there is one and there are three players on it. Perhaps you know something we don't? The only thing that indicates that I'm on a team with either of them is that they are the two aggressively suggesting I'm town, but if either of them were on a team with me they would (and there can be no doubt) have bussed me days ago. I could be a rogue I suppose... but then Agar would be dead. Dead dead dead. There is no way known that if I had killing powers I wouldn't have removed him.

vote MattP

[MacDougall]

Lol you are an egomaniac. Nobody coached me to do anything and I never "moved away from attacking you" for any reason other than because you weren't around and I found out that MattP is scum.

[MacDougall]

Oh and I'd like for you to back up that last sentence with some quotes please.

[MacDougall]

Pfft surely you can give us a brief example. How about you elaborate on the one you just suggested? That would be easy! I didn't ask for a case, I asked for some quotes. Why you fail to do this is confusing.

Why would I need to "transition things smoothly"? That would imply that I am selecting my words over cautiously and trying not to trap myself. Which would be a scum thing to do. So you're saying that because I'm not behaving scummily that I'm being coached and am scum? Because I am being boisterous, "ADD" as you say, I am being coached and am scum? I find that the loud, pig headed players are generally town, which is why I have a town read on you.

Why do you not entertain the idea that you are wrong on this? You have been adamant the entire time and have given me no quarter once. Just TRY to have a town read on me. Read my ISO as though you WANT me to be town. You'll make a stronger case to yourself than the one you currently have I assure you. I did just have a look at your ISO in the Upick game and noticed that you used a suicide bomber kill on a townie. So it's not like you're showing great form at the moment. Be at the head of my lynch mob and soon you're gonna start to develop a reputation...

[MacDougall]

So you think MattP is town?

[MacDougall]

Most likely, yes. You are your top 6 scum reads and why?

Lol what a strange retort. You answer my question with no explanation and then ask me for an absurd explanation of something that I'm not capable of.

You want 6 scum reads? Why 6? Is that how many scum you think there are left? Wouldn't that be a high ratio scum vs. town? Your request is random, uncalled for and you are asking for a lot for someone who offered so little after my last question. I understand that I gave you the option of yes vs. no, but taking that option is pretty scummy.

I'll give it to you though...

1. MattP - I already outlined it on this page.

2. Andrius - He swapped in on a player that was lurking terribly and then went the obvious route of doing a mass of PBP on everyone. He landed on the numero uno lynch candidate and buddied up to the person most vocally pushing the lynch. Other than this has done nothing of note. Occasionally comes back to tell us that he's going to re-read the thread again and see what comes up, but just lands on the same ol' same ol'. It doesn't add up. More than half the players in the game think I'm town, how can I be the only player he has an adamant scum read on after multiple re-reads? I find it hilarious how easily he had Agar convinced, with little trying, and nothing more than an agreement... But I am vocal, committed and contributing, but I just can't shake him. So that's it folks, if you want to fool Agar, then just blatantly buddy him, because he loves flattery and being agreed with.

3. Bogre - Much like Vezok he hasn't done much scum hunting. He has chimed in every now and then to say not much. The little he has said strikes me as him just posting what he feels are townish things. He has only really voted as part of a wagon despite posting enough material to have made his own cases on the likes of myself or manho.

4. Vezok - A VI isn't always town. He has done nothing at all to help scum hunt and his play in general, while being VI, has read scum. I wouldn't like to lynch him based just on this though, hence why he is #4.

5. Manho - He posts in short bursts. I don't think English is his first language and that always makes a player harder to read but that fake claim was and still is a problem. Also 4th Legion Deathbringers seems like a PR of some kind, and doesn't really sound town to me. I'd like for him to in greater detail explain what he meant by the possibility of being recruited.

6. KDowns - He has been coasting on his vig and someone vocally declaring him obvtown and has not done a thing since. If he was scum and had this luck out he would DEFINITELY be doing what he is doing now. I feel him as town but I don't like that there are so many inactive players. If there are town players among the likes of Bogre, PeregrineV, Manho, KDowns and Vezok they really need to post more.

I am also suspicious of EtherealCookie to some extent but it's only through the cases of others. Magua, Nero Cain, Agar I am confident are town. PeregrineV while being equally lurky as the others, seems a lot more town to me.

[MacDougall]

I think it would be pretty obvious just by reading it. There is more of a case on Bogre than you imo. Whatever case we can make on you, we can also make on Bogre imo, but then there is the additional case on Bogre as I suggested. Why do you ask?

[MacDougall]

Most likely, yes. You are your top 6 scum reads and why?

Lol what a strange retort.

You answer my question with no explanation

and

then ask me for an absurd explanation of something that I'm not capable of.

You want 6 scum reads? Why 6?

Is that how many scum you think there are left

? Wouldn't that be a high ratio scum vs. town?

Your request is random, uncalled for

and you are asking for a lot for someone who offered so little after my last question. I understand that I gave you the option of yes vs. no,but taking that option is pretty scummy.

black bold-it was a loaded question and had absolutely nothing to do with me stating who I'd want to lynch.

red bold-If you were uncapable of it how'd you do it? Did someone help you? I asked b/c your pretty much singular hunting and you never seem to stick with a "scum" read long.

blue bold-So what do YOU think? Pere said he has played in a game with two scum factions that were 4 apiece. I think I played in a game with similar stats. So what do you think the scum sizes are? 2 apiece? 3? 4?

light blue bold-Why are you getting defensive here?

Mate, if my question was loaded... what does that make yours?

I haven't really changed any of my scum reads. I just change the focus of which one I'm suspicious on. When I say I'm incapable of it, it means that I didn't really have 6 scum reads. But when it came down to it and I had a look, I had at least 6 players that I COULD read as scum if I wanted to...

8 scum would mean 1/3 of the players are scum... I'd think it'd be more likely to be 3 a piece. But then again I'm not a Mafiascum vet.

It's not defensive, it's offensive.

Pfft surely you can give us a brief example. How about you elaborate on the one you just suggested? That would be easy! I didn't ask for a case, I asked for some quotes. Why you fail to do this is confusing.

Why would I need to "transition things smoothly"? That would imply that I am selecting my words over cautiously and trying not to trap myself. Which would be a scum thing to do. So you're saying that because I'm not behaving scummily that I'm being coached and am scum? Because I am being boisterous, "ADD" as you say, I am being coached and am scum? I find that the loud, pig headed players are generally town, which is why I have a town read on you.

Why do you not entertain the idea that you are wrong on this? You have been adamant the entire time and have given me no quarter once. Just TRY to have a town read on me. Read my ISO as though you WANT me to be town. You'll make a stronger case to yourself than the one you currently have I assure you. I did just have a look at your ISO in the Upick game and noticed that you used a suicide bomber kill on a townie. So it's not like you're showing great form at the moment. Be at the head of my lynch mob and soon you're gonna start to develop a reputation...

Let's go with your posting content this day;

Starts off voting Andrius for "WoT" and

some other shit

. Transitions hard to defending hard against me, almost completely dropping your pursuit of an Andrius lynch, instead posting "I'd have killed AGar!"

But suddenly, that line of thought just stops. Not progresses or regresses. Just stops. After that you move to "Lol I'm at L-1, just lynch me!" But then that just stops with a hard jolt.

Then after the whole "Lol I'm dead, no wait no I'm not" thing, it's

"Well AGar and Andrius... they're scum!"

But literally your next post (with no posts from me or Andrius between them) says we're both town. Looks like someone checked into the QT, huh? Back to "Ok, I'm going to die, just let it happen." after that, and then back off of that wagon again. After

a few more weak tosses at me

,

you move to MattP "because I wasn't around"

even though it logically follows no progression.

No one else really sees this? Am I really alone here?

Maybe I'm stark raving mad, but I'm damn sure that MacDougall is scum.

Also, I really don't give a fuck about my reputation here.

P-Edit: I'd support EC. Not whole-heartedly, but I can agree to it.

See, this is why nobody supports your lynch. You only post the parts that suit you. In context my actions make sense. You see a sentence here or there that supports your cause but it's literally surrounded by a myriad of words that could only come from the mouth of a town player, but all you hear is a low hum.

"Some other shit". My reason for voting Andrius was because I didn't like his walls of text. They were high on text, low on content. These swirling masses of useless information that served no purpose other than to look town. That's how I saw it.

When I say I'd have killed you I mean that if I was scum I'd have killed you. As a townie, of course I wouldn't kill you because I think you are town. As scum, I'd have killed you because you have been the most aggressive player bar none and have been attacking me. You might think I'd leave you alive just to play this card. But what would be the point when it looked so blatantly obvious so many times that you would get your lynch?

Then I thought I was a goner... I wasn't... so I continued playing. So what?

So I briefly entertained the idea that you are scum Agar. Wishful thinking on my part. And the post that I mention you and Andrius as being scum, my next post isn't a town read on you, I don't know where you get that from. These are the two posts and they ARE divided by an Andrius post ironically.

Look, believe it or not, I'm not scum. I say get rid of me already because I've just been useless and dumb all game and if you're going to lynch me, make it quick so you can move on with the game. You're not gonna get any scum buddies out of me because I have none. I've said it all along, I am House Morvanus, a loyalist, from Anoria. You're gonna lynch me now and then loyalists will lose the game by tomorrow because of it by my count. Whatever. Level the blame at me after it happens if you wish.

Agar, Andrius, Manho and Vezok are the scum imo. Whether there are two teams, or one.

The Soda wagon was badbadbadbadbadbadbad and everyone on it is dumbdumbdumbdumb

Weren't YOU on that wagon? (IIRC)

But yes, MacDaddyDougall is scum.


PREDIT: Soooooo both of the main people pushing your lynch are scum.... just because they're pushing your lynch?

I am House Morvanus, a loyalist, from Anoria. You're gonna lynch me now

and then loyalists will lose the game by tomorrow because of it by my count.

Explain the last part now.
The game being over tomorrow makes NO SENSE whatsoever.

I'm getting lynched. I don't have to explain anything I say, because it won't save me. From what I can tell, three more loyalists will be dead by sunrise tomorrow. I'll boldly predict that yet again Agar and you somehow avoid the night kill.

That's also something to consider. Not once has Agar been seriously called into question here. And after my play late game yesterday came off poorly it was obvious I was about to be lynched. If I was scum, wouldn't I have killed Agar? You bet I would have...

So yeah, basically don't buy into Andrius's super lame game. One or both of his little "obv town champions" are scum. Come up with your own thoughts. Don't play follow the leader. It's making it too easy for them.

Sure, after that I went back to thinking you were both town... But now I've settled on Andrius scum and you town, for deductions made since then. Coming up with new ideas for why people are scum is the meat and potatoes of the game mate, that doesn't make me scum.

Your play is bad because you paraphrase everything way too much to suit the idea you are trying to convey. You might get more luck with your lynch wagon if you didn't do that. Just in this last post you made you paraphrased and summed up my play in everything I've bolded. Again, you must be some kind of ego if you think that I moved to MattP just because you weren't around. I moved to MattP because I think he's scum, I stopped attacking you because you weren't around. Two unrelated situations that you've managed to paraphrase and wrap up into one lie to suit your numero uno lynch candidate yet again.

[MacDougall]

Oh and I like how you've blatantly disregarded everything I've posted that didn't relate to you.

[MacDougall]

So I believe the vote tally is something like;

MacDougall 5 votes
Andrius 2 votes
Vezok 2 votes
MattP 1 vote

MattP is at the top of my list but since nobody else seems interested in voting him. I'll settle for number 2.

vote: Andrius

[MacDougall]

Jesus Christ Vezok you can't do that and expect to get away with it. You are lucky it wasn't you that is in Andrius's position and you haven't once indicated that you have any suspicions on him. You haven't even pointed out where you agree with him. It was 5-5 me and him when you changed your vote from me to him... why on Earth did you do that? You've at least shown a tendency towards wanting me lynched.

Now Andrius is at L-1 and I am completely backtracking here because I am totally not cool with the speed at which that wagon built up.

UNVOTE: Andrius

[MacDougall]

Yeah true.

VOTE: Andrius

But I really don't like Vezok's play here. I want him dead.

[MacDougall]

That is such a poor vote this late in the day dude. You say he and EC are scum, well even an EC vote would be better because at least there is a vote on EC. Read the last few Andrius posts and tell me how he is town? His response to being accused is to say "We don't fear death" or words to that effect... He has basically succumbed.

[MacDougall]

And just so we're clear you are suggesting that him and EC being so at odds with one another and attacking one another is a ploy?

[MacDougall]

It'd be a good fake claim if it was one. Knowing that the "3rd legion" was town (and mason) and other similar sounding roles were also town it'd be a good idea. Based on monk's role reveal and manho's claim I don't quite buy yours to be honest. The other two supposed legions are "Deathbringers" and "Stormtroopers"... "Iron" doesn't go with the theme. Also your spurge on the supposed Vezok hammer comes across disingenuous. Gandalf and manho have also both suggested that their roles had the potential to turn, and since yours is similar in flavour to theirs maybe yours does too. Confirm/deny? If you are the 9th legion. It goes that there are 8 more. That would mean that of the remaining 12 players 8 are legions, which I doubt, but if that is the case, then there are scum legions.

Good posting though, it definitely sparked the game. As for your reads on my day 1 play I suggest you get past that because it's all been analysed ad nauseum. I'm specifically interested in why you found that me revealing my lands when not requested is bad? I was just hoping that there was a purpose to me owning lands and by revealing them SOMETHING might happen. There really was nothing to it.

P Edit: Well... There goes the hammer.

[MacDougall]

Well if you're telling the truth do you think there has been any stage when the scum targeted you and discovered that you were bulletproof? Because I'm quite sure I was roleblocked on night 2 as I received a flavour PM that seemed to suggest it, so I assume that you may have too. If you did then there is a load of scum on your wagon.

I'm not scum Andrius. Come back when the game is over and you can critique my play some. I don't want to be this scumtown style forever.

I don't like your hammer Nero. I know I'm not one to talk with my gung-ho hammerings in days past but it was very out of character for you. Especially since you've never suggested you had a scum read on Andrius. In fact, you've stayed well away from even mentioning him.

[MacDougall]

Just because I'm Legion #9 doesn't mean there are another 8.
I can't tell if you're scum or freaking stupid as hell.

Don't get all "well there goes the hammer" because you're calling me scum. HOT DAMN. AND I TURNED DOWN OSNEY KETTLEBLACK FOR THIS? GOOD LORD.

SCUM
manho
MacDougall
Magua
ECookie
Don't even care we've got room for 2 more in each scumgroup AT LEAST.

Of course it doesn't mean it. I was mostly suggesting that being 9 would be a good fake claim. I resent you calling me stupid as hell.

Why does it matter that Magua got his read on you wrong if he's scum? If he's scum he got his read on you right...

[MacDougall]

I got a message that without quoting it directly said "Guards gathered outside your room keeping you inside. Even if you wanted to go out you couldn't." I don't have any PR, I was just informed I was targeted. What makes me dumb as hell? I thought you were nice but you turn into a mean bastard when you get lynched. Sore loser much?