Mini 1243: Magician Mafia (Game Over)

[sottyrulez]

Unvote, Vote: sottyrulez

Meh, Springlullaby's wall makes me think he was somewhat disinterested town rather than active lurking.

I'm calling bullshit.

teh facts:

1. In 382 you decry Shift for voting for Spring while moving from us

2. Post 405: Spring wagon becomes viable so KAPOW, let's get on that shit while it's hot! Sottyrulez being the best lynch evaporates away once Spring gets a couple of votes. I'd even believe he legitimately found her scummy except for...

3. Yeah... that quote above. Whatever you thought made her likely scum obviously wasn't that strong if one wall was all it took to get you to move your vote. Hell, the fact that you didn't even come up with a specific part of her post that pointed to her being town points more to the fact that you invented your reason for voting her in the first place.

Preview edit:

Sotty has a scummish read on Junpei that was much stronger earlier in the game that I didn't feel as strongly about. He's been pretty neutralish for most of the game for me and I don't really feel comfortable leaning one way or another with a read on him. I could only see us going for him in a deadline situation where he's got clear support for a lynch.

At this point the people we'd prefer to switch to are Riggs (Who is practically as good of a lynch as Ace at this point IMO, or Saulres, who I find slightly scummier than Junpei and Shift.)

[saulres]

@SR: The link is that GNR said "Hey Sotty! My vote isn't on Ace, but you're scum because you're bussing him! So I'm going to vote for him instead of you!" If GNR is scum that reads as "I'll support my scumbuddy who's voting for town, and tomorrow when he's not scum make up some excuse to get him off the hook.

Also I never said I think Vi is scum. I said that you and 4nxi3ty were likely scum and were following her around for some reason (a behavior, BTW, which stopped after I pointed it out).

That leaves room for a third scum who could theoretically be GNR. And your flip would help confirm/deny those suspicions as well as the other ones I noted on CC, 4nxiety, possibly Vi, and now GNR.

[saulres]

That's it. I have to go. Hoping to see a lynched scum when I can log back on!

[Fishythefish]

So, Vi's case on SL, I think:

My opinion is that my current vote is a good one. Please see last

reversed chainsaw defense

in:

So I was catchting up on reading and saw Spring had about 3 votes added to him?

I must have missed it, can someone tell where the case agaisnt him is?

Deciphering this for you: GNR is defending un-defendable behavior (namely lurking) because
1) he is a lurker himself so what he is saying is in reality 'I'm a lurker and I shouldn't be lynched'
2) he is pre-emptively trying to associate town points for himself when/if I flip town because of our likeness of behavior.

*points to bolded*
*reads "deciphering"*
*reaches into pants*
*pulls out steaming pile*

SL is talking bullshit. She is talking out of her arse in order to justify her vote for G_N_R.

*checks calendar*
*marks springlullaby's entrance*

You are voting me 3 days near deadline

springlullaby (L-3) %u2013 Shift, Vi, Amrun, ace5993

In between all lurkers, GNR is certainly scummier than me.

*grabs life preserver*
*throws it around springlullaby's neck*

SL popped up near deadline to save herself from the lynch.

Pattern of dismissing other's effort at deciphering her while not putting in the effort of making herself more clear.

@Vi

Do you have a post restriction with you being a mime/only allowed to do emote? (make a flower appear if yes/a carrot if no)
Does it have a time limit? (Make a rabbit appear if yes/ a parrot if no)
Does it have a word count limit? (make a tv appear if yes/ a radio if no)
Anything else we should know about? (make two shoes appear if yes/ a pair of knickers if no)
Are you scum? (a rope if yes/ an apple if no)

*dirty look*

Why?

*extends one-finger salute*

*writes novel*
*holds novel up*
*puts on reading glasses*
*opens mouth*

I don't understand this bit.

...

*shoots deathglances at springlullaby*

Three 'confirm votes' on Ace with weak reasoning (association tell as far as I can make out), dropped

speedily

for a lurker vote.

*returns to calendar*

*

confirms vote on ace5993

*

*marks a week ago today*

*

votes springlullaby

*

*marks yesterday*
*draws line through entire week between the two dates*

SL is misrepresenting how Vi's vote move. A week is not speedily.

*

points fist of imminent death at springlullaby

*

My thoughts:
1. Yep, the reasoning for G_N_R vote is a stretch, and it's scummy.
2. Well, SL has certainly become more active near deadline, quite possible to save her own skin. But wanting to save your skin isn't something only scum do.
3. ?
4. Interesting.

@SL:

Why did you say Vi moved from ace "speedily"?

Meh. That's a bit more than a lurker lynch, I suppose. For my bits you quoted:

Wow. Springlullaby just gained a 4 vote wagon in just over a page, for lurking. She has been lurking all game. This feels very much like a distraction from either ace or sotty.

At this stage, I'd have thought scum would have more reason to go for one of the other wagons to avoid their lynch, rather than sit on an unpopular lurker wagon. Still really not seeing where this spring wagon came from.

Here's what I see:
1. SL has been lurking all game, and done nothing else.
2. A wagon on her starts, suddenly and nearish deadline, for lurking.
3. She makes a post confirming a vote which wouldn't help scum avoid the lynch.
4. People already on the wagon (Amrun, Shift, you) said that was scummy. My impression was they were saying it was scummy for being a useless vote (Amrun said this explicitly), which I don't think is at all scummy here. This is nullified in your case by the above, because it's the reasoning you find scummy and I rather agree.
5. I didn't like ace's vote at all; see here. ace hopping back off when the momentum fell off makes this even worse - with his reason of "SL posted a great big wall".
I see a pretty poor wagon here. It went fast for little reason, and then people on it confirmed their votes with a pretty poor reason. ace's participation just stinks.

SL has notes like that, and

lurks

. Grrrr.

Walls, walls. I'll read them this evening

What I am saying here is that it's very annoying that SL is clearly lurking out of choice, not out of lack of time or motivation. I don't see that as scummy - it's pretty clear that it's in her meta. It just makes me angry. Not sure what you are saying here.

*eyebrow raise*
*starts flipping through Fishythefish's deck of cards*
*finds deck is stacked in favor of springlullaby*

*

points finger of suspicion at Fishythefish

*

I think the wagon on SL is poor, so I'm going to defend her.

I'm prepared to vote for:
1. Sotty. I think he's scum from his interaction with CC.
2. Ace. His play recently has smacked of scum trying to avoid the lynch.

[Vi]

*tapes springlullaby's mouth shut*

Tell me, why not vote GNR since you think I'm bussing him?

GNR, Fishy, and me now. The suspicions for the formers seemingly only based on association tells (on day one).

*puts another layer of tape on springlullaby's mouth*

I feel the Ace wagon is a really crappy one. It generated in the nothingness of Vi's association tell (on day one!)

Usually I'd say that this wagon is just misguided but under the circumstances of how it started (a couple weak votes before the attack began)

I'm more inclined to see it as a scum-driven counterwagon

.

*

unvotes Crab Canon

*
*ushers Debonair Danny DiPietro's supervisor on stage*
*gestures with proper hand motions how to vote*
*wordlessly encourages Debonair Danny DiPietro's supervisor to practice voting*
*

votes ace5993

like a boss*

*puts another layer of tape on springlullaby's mouth*

Also, Vi what do you think of Shift?

*waves hand*
*

confirms vote on springlullaby

*




*leaves stage*
*returns onstage dressed like so:*

I don't think you are as scummy as Vi thinks you are mainly because you have been so blatant about your lurkiness.

My read on you is "slightly leaning town".

reversed chainsaw defense

reversed chainsaw defense

reversed chainsaw defense

reversed chainsaw defense

reversed chainsaw defense

reversed chainsaw defense

reversed chainsaw defense

reversed chainsaw defense

reversed chainsaw defense

reversed chainsaw defense

reversed chainsaw defense

*considers placing above quote in signature for posterity*

I'm prepared to vote for:

1. Sotty. I think he's scum from his interaction with CC.
2. Ace. His play recently has smacked of scum trying to avoid the lynch.

Vote Count 1.16

ace5993 (L-3) - sottyrulez, Guy_Named_Riggs, Locke Lamora, Crab Canon
sottyrulez (L-3) - Fishythefish, saulres, Junpei, ace5993

[Fishythefish]

Tell me, why not vote GNR since you think I'm bussing him?

GNR, Fishy, and me now. The suspicions for the formers seemingly only based on association tells (on day one).

Yeah, this stinks.

@Vi: that's who and I'm prepared to lynch (and the order) out of the people who could get lynched today (ace, sotty, SL). So it's hardly surprising that they are at the top of the votecount.

[Shift]

@Shift
Read your reply.
Your are correct in saying that there are post reporting error in my notes. However they are only editing error (my classing the post under the wrong names). My notes only help ne form impressions. It is the conclusion you need to defend against. More generally, I just think you are scum as there is nothing town in you. You are the creeping, plentiful posters with obsequious buddying but no real scumhunting and opportunist vote hopping kind.

Except you've failed to refute any points I made against your case. ANY. And I literally refuted almost every single note you had against me.

As for the "failed to refute the conclusion":

Conclusion: High danger of being scum. The vote on Saulres was bad and drawn out for too long for the weak (if any) reasoning that supported it, as bad as the way he removed his vote from saulres. The vote on Sotty was also really opportunistic. Vote hoping pattern with no individual scumhunting to speak of. Looks like scum alright.

Pretty sure I've already answered the saulres wagon AND my vote hop to sotty but you don't seem to be reading my posts anyway, just dismissing them so I shouldn't expect you to have seen it. Here, I'll quote it for you.

Saulres wagon:

32. Comment on Vi, VOTE SAULRES out of nowhere - MEH
59. fluff

I don't have a post 59. Vote on Saulres was still in RVS, mine was the first semiserious vote and I explained it in 61.

64. a bit of backtracking on saulres: from 'scumstastic' to 'reasonable vote' - PINGING
67. lurer prodding + fluff - MEH
76. overreactive reply to saulres, calls him scum for what??? +fluff post - DO NOT LIKE
78. fluff banter with VI
80. same as above - ME NOT LIKE
82. same as above - NOT LIKE

Strong reads fade, deal with it especially when better votes come up. I again make a lot of jokes, see for yourself in Blaz Blue. I was town. To go further, a lot of it was with Vi.

Sotty vote hop:

260. Shift is leaning scum on sotty...long post with very little content - BAD
317. very opportunistic VOTE SOTTY - HORRIBLE SCUM

I expressed my opinion of Sotty in 251 by saying Amrun's 187 as parallel to my feelings. I see no reason to simply rephrase another player. The vote had been a few pages in the making, accusations against CC were pretty baseless.

As for "lack of scumhunting", what do you think I voted saulres and Sotty for, and why I'm voting you right now?

tl;dr: Spring claims to have read my posts, does not refute a single thing despite me refuting absolutely all of her notes on me, claims I did not refute the conclusion which if you'd actually read my post you'd see I answered what it was based off of

Have something to point out on sotty but it can wait a second.

[Shift]

At this point the people we'd prefer to switch to are Riggs (Who is practically as good of a lynch as Ace at this point IMO, or Saulres, who I find slightly scummier than Junpei and Shift.)

Never mind, remembered it.

You literally just gave 5 scum reads.

13 people, minus you=12 possible FoS's.

You just gave scum reads on half the game.

[Shift]

We like Springs recent burst of content even if we don't agree with everything she said, namely her reads. They seem a little too cookie cutter and I don't see her taking any real risks with what she posted.

Oh and last thing, Spring's scum reads are different from everyone else's in the game. How in the world you can call her reads cookie cutter, expecially too cookie cutter, is beyond me.

[Guy_Named_Riggs]

Ok, I realize I have been incredibly inactive during this day. However, I think it's time to do this.

For those of you who think I'm scum, you're wrong. I am Penn Jillette of the group Penn and Teller. Care to take a guess who Teller is?

So, on behalf of Teller, here we go...

"Let's just get everything cleared up, since I'd hate to see springlullaby walk free Today.

Regarding ace5993.
*In Post 184 ace suggests that the three-person counterwagon to sottyrulez was a scum-driven counterwagon. How, exactly, would a Townie know that the wagon is scum-driven? It sounds like a horrible reason to justify tunneling.

*Post 249 is even better. First, let's note that there's a reason that everyone read the post as saying "who is the MOST likely to make these name slip-ups", because that's usually how the sound logic works. Under that interpretation everything makes sense - ace is accusing Crab Canon of accidentally swapping in his name for Anxiety's. Aside from the arguing-against-myself factor, this gets even stranger when ace says "I don't know what to make of the mix-up". If you're Town, you know exactly what to make of it - it's a false positive!

Given that ace is evidently sticking to meaning that he's taking it to say Crab Canon is Town, then how does 249 work again? The case on Crab Canon was all wrong, but... the name mixup is... suspicious? It still doesn't make a lot of sense.

But that's all forgivable compared to springlullaby.

The initial vote on springlullaby was done for reactions. I didn't want to keep my vote on ace and didn't want to join the sottyrulez wagons, and I was curious as to who would jump around. Then springlullaby actually started posting.

Let's first point out that ace is correct in her posts being contentless prior to appearing. In addition, it's fairly suspect that she's only choosing to enter the arena close to deadline, instead of actually trying to hunt scum. I'm aware that she prefers to lurk, but in Tofu Mafia she was actually candid and a thorn in the side of the scum who I was glad (as scum) to see replaced. This time, it's more likely that she actually is scum.

Now, let's walk through her accusations.
*I am scum because I have refused questions to make my post restriction less of a hassle.

EXCUSE ME? Does it look like I can wax eloquent with this restriction to the extent that you're asking? How, exactly, do you expect me to "explain" myself or answer "why" in any clear way? I'm lucky I have this "out" I'm using now. And are you really going to knock me for not taking such a ridiculously bad post as 54 seriously?

*Guy_Named_Riggs is scum because of a "reversed chainsaw defense" (421) wherein Riggs tries to justify being a lurker and is simultaneously trying to cover himself if springlullaby is lynched and flips Town.

Am I the only person who sees this as transparent horse manure (fine, I'll start the obscenity machine just for this role) bullshit? "Reversed chainsaw defense"? What the hell is that supposed to be? And GNR is trying to self-servedly actively justify HIS OWN lurking in post 421? Even if anyone actually believes this (I don't, and would never have read the post this way), the person believing it wouldn't be Guy_Named_Riggs - the person I would expect to think so strategically would be springlullaby herself.

There's a much easier explanation for GNR 416 - scum asking why a wagon has magically formed on his partner. I mean, unexplained wagons on scum? FUDGE! You can't logically attack what doesn't have a logical basis! Plus it appeared to be the only thing worth commenting on out of everything up until that point. Never mind that springlullaby is now letting herself be talked out of the GNR wagon in favor of Shift.

*Guy_Named_Riggs is "scummier than me [springlullaby]".
Just a reminder, but springlullaby only started moving after four votes came her way. Am I really the only person reading self-preservation into this?

*Vi is scum for "too many 100% fluff posts".
I assure you I've made fewer fluff posts than you while posting six times as often. Your idea of a "useless" post seems to be heavily skewed toward me being scum. But that's where you're going in the end, isn't it?

468 is a bloody PbPA. She gives half a line of recap of what the post was about (unless spinnable), and ends with BAD or GOOD. How the hell are you supposed to form a coherent case from that? You can't. It's fake.

springlullaby is so obviously phony and she's so obviously getting away with it that it's actively making me ill.

Her scumpartners are probably Guy_Named_Riggs, who she has been throwing under the bus for a while now, and probably Sathoris/Fishythefish for particularly resisting the springlullaby wagon while finding a spot in a safe pocket of the Town to be ignored.

Of course, judgment can be reserved on GNR if this post actually makes it to light. For now, stop what you're doing any lynch springlullaby."

there you have it.

UNVOTE

VOTE SPRINGLULLABY

[sottyrulez]

At this point the people we'd prefer to switch to are Riggs (Who is practically as good of a lynch as Ace at this point IMO, or Saulres, who I find slightly scummier than Junpei and Shift.)

Never mind, remembered it.

You literally just gave 5 scum reads.

13 people, minus you=12 possible FoS's.

You just gave scum reads on half the game.

Errrr no. We gave an order of preference for lynch in a deadline situation, that's a significant difference. All the reads after Riggs are leaning scum at best.

[Crab Canon]

First: Masons or Neighbors? I would assume Masons given the duo but given the suspiciousness of GNR I guess Neighbors. We suspected a Penn was around but I would have put my money on Anxiety given the mimicking.

OK, so Vi's explanation of his 249 objection of ace makes a lot more sense now. And really makes me even more suspicious of ace. I had not read it like that, I just thought it was an odd case to make (reaching). Which now makes me think he is even more scummy.

I am reading your case on spring here Vi and I do get a self-preservation vibe from her. But like I said before, I don't really know that it is always a scum sentiment. I hate getting lynched. It makes me feel like a failure so I would fight my lynch hard as town too. I just think ace and Junpei are way scummier. Meh, I will think some more about it but I'm not seeing her as scummy as you are.

---

Again, I don't understand why you're being obstinate toward very specific questions that should be easy to answer if you're town.

I was answering saulres' question because he asked. Presumably, he wanted to get a better read on me and answering his question would help him do that. I don't see a reason to ignore questions asked to me.

do you agree with junpei, that not answering questions=scum?

or maybe ignoring some questions to avoid circular arguements is better?

CC i am still waiting for an answer to those two questions, i don't need whole a case on what is scummy, just a simple answer to the questions and why you chose to answer saulres and not me.

Well, this whole exchange was between you and my other head but I will attempt to answer. You had commented on a "fluffy interaction" with saulres who asked why we felt that Teller would be town. Now that the cats out of the bag, we both agreed that DDD's love for Penn and Teller would make them town. But I digress. We didn't understand how you thought that answering a question was somehow "fluffy". We just saw it as answering a simple question. Do we think answering a question or failing to is scummy? That would depend on the situation. The question sotty was failing to answer was a simple enough question and by not answering it showed us that they didn't have an answer for it. So in that instance it was scummy. Not answering RQS questions is another story and we could care less who answered Junpei's questions because we thought they were stupid. With regards to ignoring questions, again it would depend on context. If you are town trying to avoid a circular argument I would probably prefer you say "I'm not getting into a circular argument with you" or "you're scum so I am not answering your question". Make sense?

I have skipped some of these walls (except the Penn/Teller one because it was juicy), I worked 12+ hours today and I need a hot bath. I'll be back in a couple hours and will try to read them.

[4nxi3ty]

0.Oo.0O.o

This day just went from bad to worse.

Do you really want to lynch A LURKER?

Do you seriously think a SL or RIGGS flip will provide more info than a ACE or SOTTY(this name should be saul) flip...?

[Amrun]

Why are you calling yourself scum, gnr? I'm confused.

[4nxi3ty]

CC i did not ask you to discuss theory or sotty or junpei or that interaction between you and saul.

I asked you to simply answer the questions and explain why it took so long to respond to me.

[Shift]

Amrun, he is posting on behalf of Vi. They're neighbors/masons as the group Penn & Teller, guessing Vi did not know GNR was Penn.

But yes,

for those of you too lazy to read my walls:

Spring's PbPA on me was absolutely horrible, I explained why most notes were terrible and explained my actions for the others, called her out on just her blatant crap in general, she responds refuting NONE of my points and says I did not refute the conclusion when I explained my actions she referenced in the conclusion. Has pushed a wagon on me hard but does not respond to my actual points after I rip the case apart and show at least one of her points to be a blatant misrep.

[ace5993]

Bulletpoints:

I get the feeling people aren't actually reading springlullaby's wall - check out Shift and sotty. Looks like town scumhunting to me.

Shift's "defense" of springlullaby's wagon against him is pretty bad, HOWEVER, almost immediate pointing out that sotty's point on springlullaby is completely horrible makes me feel a little better. I'm actually probably leaning town on Shift for that.

sotty attacking me for being on the springlullaby wagon is just ridiculous.

I'm guessing Vi and Guy_Named_Riggs are neighbors because Vi suspects GNR...

Amrun isn't reading.

I think I liked 4nxi3ty better when he was posting with his "post restriction".

Is it fruitless to request a deadline extension?

@Guy_Named_Riggs

- Is your communication with Vi a two-way deal?

[ace5993]

Oh and one more:

@sotty

- what was the ORIGINAL reason you voted me? Specifically.

[sottyrulez]

sotty attacking me for being on the springlullaby wagon is just ridiculous.

Saying it doesn't make it so.

Oh and one more:

@sotty

- what was the ORIGINAL reason you voted me? Specifically.

The quicktopic discussion conveyed a feeling that you were trying to blend in too much. I can actually paste some quicktopic posts which convey our thought process on you but I don't really find it necessary.

Saw Riggs' claim. We're still digesting it over here. Definitely want to see what Vi has to say now.

[Crab Canon]

CC i did not ask you to discuss theory or sotty or junpei or that interaction between you and saul.

I asked you to simply answer the questions and explain why it took so long to respond to me.

I did answer your questions, I just don't think it is a yes/no question. As to why we didn't answer your other question, I can't answer for my other half until he gets back but I didn't notice this question until you just brought it to my attention. It was on like page 7. Why didn't it bother you until now?


@sotty - I thought you two were married, why do you need a quicktopic to discuss reads? (not game related I know but my curiosity and etc.)

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Vote Count 1.17

sottyrulez (L-3) - Fishythefish, saulres, Junpei, ace5993
ace5993 (L-4) - sottyrulez, Locke Lamora, Crab Canon
springlullaby (L-4) – Shift, Vi, Guy_Named_Riggs
Shift (L-5) – Amrun, springlullaby
saulres (L-6) - 4nxi3ty

Not Voting (0)

Deadline: Friday September 30 @ 1:00 PM Eastern

Countdown: (expired on 2011-09-30 13:00:00)

[Fishythefish]

This game only reveals alignments, not roles, so it is important we find out whether GNR and Vi are masons or just neighbours. If one of them dies without telling us, we'll never know.

New/newly understood points from Vi are that SL's points against Vi suck. Which they do, massively. Fuck it, time to flip like a pancake chef:

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Springlullaby

SL has done a remarkable number of bad things in a remarkably short space of time. Points on Vi, points on G_N_R, asking Vi to move on to G_N_R. That's less evidence than I see against sotty, certainly, but a higher density of scumminess.

@Anxiety, Amrun, SL:

There are three wagons today that could end in a lynch - sotty, ace and SL. With a day until deadline, you need to be on one of these wagons.

[springlullaby]

Asking for a deadline extension

First I'd like someone to explain to me what the mason/neighbor thing is about: am I correct in understanding that Vi is claiming neighbor/mason with GNR? Whom she has asked to post her thoughts?

Secondly I ll reply to Vi in detail when I get to a computer this night. Short: Vi, you are correct in thinking that I was leaning on you being scum as I stated plainly in my wall post, but I think my points and pressure of you have been adequate. You have been posting rainbow ponies and deriding all my simple questions to you prior to even your vote on me. I read that as scum passive provocation, because you know that I'm _awesome_.I'm still circumspect of you because, well, I know for a fact that you are wrong about me, but yes I think you are very unlikely to be scum now and that I have been wrong.

In meantime, please everyone support deadline extension!! Because you don't want to miss the oppotunity of gauging my interaction with Vi (now that she seem to be able to talk through puppets) and everyone else's reactions to it!!!

[Locke Lamora]

Vi and GNR's alignment obviously isn't confirmed to each other, given Vi's attitude towards him. I'd like to know more details of the role because on the current evidence it seems a little strange.

Are you just ignoring me now, Ace?

Fishy: are you suggesting that 'higher density' of scumminess is outweighing what is obviously a stronger scumread on sottyrulez? Do you now think people on the SL wagon are bussing?

SL: why are you asking for a deadline extension?

My position is that I would like to lynch Ace, I have no interest in lynching Sotty and I would compromise on SL, but I don't have a particularly strong scumread on her. I think her play has been lacklustre but I don't see a whole lot of scum motivation (or any motivation up until recently) other than potentially in the self-preservation.

[Fishythefish]

Fishy: are you suggesting that 'higher density' of scumminess is outweighing what is obviously a stronger scumread on sottyrulez? Do you now think people on the SL wagon are bussing?

What I mean is that sotty has done more scummy things, but he's had more posts to do them in. SL has done fewer scummy things, but that's hardly surprising since she's hardly posted.

No, I doubt the SL wagon is a particularly bussy one. My problems with the wagon only really make sense for it being a wagon to save either sotty or ace. I'm finding it hard to make up my mind about this - I don't like some of the play on this wagon, but aside from ace it comes from people who I tend to think are town (Vi and Amrun, certainly), and Vi's case is pretty convincing.

I don't see any reason for a deadline extension.