camn's temperamental - Mini 1232 - GAME OVER

[Haylen]

To be honest, I'm not really sure. I've been entertaining the theory that their may be an SK without a kill or the scum faction doesn't have a kill - I mean look at the other roles in this game. Anyone who says they'll never be a scum faction without a kill should read a Jungle Republic game. I thought I had hit on target with TS and that's why there wasn't a kill but then he flipped scum. Another player can't be preventing the kill because a roleblocker/jailkeeper wouldn't continuously target the same person two nights in a row this early in the game especially without claim/tracker result. It's too unrealistic. So there's either a faction without a kill, or there's no SK.

But a much simpler explanation is that psychiatrist is a claim which lets haylen stay in the game with the excuse "oh, i haven't found the serial killer yet, but i will tomorrow night!"

Also unrealistic. What do you expect me to do as a psychiatrist? Have an instant knowledge of who is SK? No, I'm not making any promises, maybe I wont even hit the SK this game, maybe I will? Since you appear to be all knowing, how would you find an SK in a game full of townies having a natural scumminess/real scum/actual SK, plus power roles? There's so many different vibes going on here that it's impossible.

[Parama]

*snore*

nothing has changed.

also @redpanda
if fishy had confirmed TS's role
don't you think things would've played out differently yesterday? what motive would fishy-scum have to deny his buddy's fakeclaim?

[RedPanda]

Exactly things would have played out differently yesterday had someone confirmed twisteds role. Ts was a roleblocker not an inventor. which is why im wondering why choose fishy if he wasnt his buddy.im only guessing here but i think scumfishy's motive would be to get rid of a weak link and appear more town. But mainly i think fishy didnt want to take the risk of confirming his buddy's claim in case the ts lynch still happened.

[PeregrineV]

Ok, I see now that scum *could* have a tracker/watcher. Although, compared to the number of town versions, it's less than a percent or two.

I'd like some claim clarification. RedPanda is claiming Healer, and Haylen is claiming Protector. Are both docs? Haylen gave night targets and sort of why. And why is there suddenly SK speculation?

Unvote.

[Chair]

[...]
Are both docs?
[...]

Rolefishing is not good, especially protective roles.

We're still set on a Haylen scum.

-Misder

[Haylen]

I thought I made it clear. My role name is Protector, my role is Psychiatrist. A Psychiatrist turns an SK into a VT.

[PeregrineV]

@Chair- Please clarify how asking for clarification from the claimed HEALER and claimed PROTECTOR/PSYCHIATRIST is rolefishing?

And I did not know this

A Psychiatrist turns an SK into a VT.

.

So your name is protector and you convert SKs?

And RedPanda claimed Healer, but nothing else?

I originally thought there was another case of doc/doc claims similar to the cop/cop claims, and was going to semi-rant.

@Haylen- As it stands, I know Marketplace Mafia had scum and an SK and no one had night kills, but I'll want to look over your Jungle Republic game you mentioned. What type/forum is it in?

[Haylen]

It's an open setup played in The Open Queue created by Kelly Chen.

[Haylen]

Psychiatrist.

fixed

[Chair]

Ok, I see now that scum *could* have a tracker/watcher. Although, compared to the number of town versions, it's less than a percent or two.

I'd like some claim clarification. RedPanda is claiming Healer, and Haylen is claiming Protector. Are both docs? Haylen gave night targets and sort of why. And why is there suddenly SK speculation?

Unvote.

@Chair- Please clarify how asking for clarification from the claimed HEALER and claimed PROTECTOR/PSYCHIATRIST is rolefishing?

It's pretty unambiguously clear at this point that role names have no connection to roles, unless you can come up with some logic to connect inventor to roleblocker and supervisor to name cop.

Psychiatrist.

Fixed.

With regards to haylen's speculation of a serial killer without a kill: consider the balance implication of such a role. Sure, jungle republic has a kill-less faction, but:
-that faction is larger and, iirc, wins in 1v1 endgames with werewolves.
-jungle republic is an open setup
-that faction contains more than one person.

Now, if there is a serial killer, one of three things is true. Either they do have a kill, they do not have a kill, or they have a kill which has a nonstandard mechanic (arsonist, for example). Seeing as this game has shown no evidence of nonstandard mechanics, I'd say it's safe to eliminate option 3.

Consider the implications of a serial killer with a kill: in a game with two town watchers and at least one mafia roleblocker (i have speculations in my head that there are two) their kill could be thwarted or they could be ousted in

three to four separate ways per kill.

That would not be balanced... at ALL. If the mafia block them after seeing multiple kills on an earlier night, they'd identify and kill the SK. Even if they were bulletproof, the scum would be able to push on them during the day.

Consider the implications of a serial killer without a kill: they're forced to stand on the thin line of town enough to avoid lynches but scummy enough to avoid nightkills,

without even getting to kill anyone.

This means that they would have to outlast

ELEVEN PEOPLE

to get to the final two. Without being able to kill anyone on their own. And if the mafia faction still has a majority (even 2 alive) by the time that it's endgame, they're doomed.

There is no way that a serial killer in this setup is balanced. I suppose a psychiatrist could be in the setup to give them a "way out" - but it would still be pretty damn cruel since the psychiatrist could die early and leave the SK stranded and essentially doomed.

-implosion

[Haylen]

Uh, I dont think there's an SK anymore. Check out the ordinary townpersons wincon on the example role PM's in the first post. The win condition wouldn't make sense because we'd win even if an SK was still alive and all mafia were dead.

[camn]

claim biters

PeregrineV

- 1

( Johhog )

fishythefish

- 1

( RedPanda )

Haylen

- 2

( Chair Zang )

NOT VOTING:

( Haylen Lurconis fishythefish Parama PeregrineV )

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.
Deadline is

WEDNESDAY, October 12th

, 8pm MY TIME.. . Or whenever I get around to it.

[Chair]

Uh, I dont think there's an SK anymore. Check out the ordinary townpersons wincon on the example role PM's in the first post. The win condition wouldn't make sense because we'd win even if an SK was still alive and all mafia were dead.

3 possibilities.

1: Haylen town with a SK. i've explained why this is unlikely; haylen agrees.
2: Haylen town without a SK. Psychiatrist without a serial killer would be on the level of miller without a cop - sure, it's possible but think of it this way. Fishy and peregrine unvoted haylen after her claim; either they misunderstood the claim, or they gave her town credit for the claim. Giving haylen town credit for haylen's claim would be like giving a miller town credit for claiming miller in a setup where there is explicit evidence against there being a cop in the setup.
3: Haylen scum. The scum motivation for claiming psychiatrist in a situation like this is perfectly clear; it's a risky claim. Probably not a particularly well-thought-out claim, but a claim that, as I said earlier, gives haylen the option of pushing to leave her alive to find the SK. She hasn't gone with that option, most likely because I called it out as a possibility before she did.

Saying that Haylen's claim makes haylen any more town than Haylen was pre-claim is just wrong, unless you have some reason to think that the way she claimed was townish.
Haylen was scummy pre-claim.
Ergo, Haylen is still scummy; in fact, I find that the claim makes her scummier.

Votes can go back on any time.

-implosion

[Haylen]

...I hope the SK throws you under a bus...

[Haylen]

Would you lynch a town cop in a game that was completely filled with SKs?

[Haylen]

I'm gathering I'm the only person who sees Chair's attack as being opportunistic?

[Chair]

I'm gathering I'm the only person who sees Chair's attack as being opportunistic?

so, yeah, we were voting you before you claimed.

-implosion

[Chair]

...I hope the SK throws you under a bus...

SKs generally don't have any allies.

Would you lynch a town cop in a game that was completely filled with SKs?

If i thought they were scummy, yes; this isn't relevant to this game as we think you're scummy regardless of your claim, as i stated.

[Zang]

@Zang:
1. Nothing wrong with hypocrisy. Sometimes, despite being town, I perform actions that benefit the scum. If I see someone else performing those same actions, that's scummy.
2. Yes, I've withdrawn this point as wrong.
3. Meh. Parama was always going to be a flavour cop, so I doubt that changed your read on him much. You could have just been voting him until he claimed, but then I'd be surprised you didn't say that when you voted him.

1.If you do something as town, why should you expect me to do the same thing as scum? I understand your point, it just doesn't seem like something that you should use as a scumtell against someone.
2.I was refering to the second part of your point about scum casting the late day votes.
3.Your right, I just wasn't thinking about that when I voted him.

Im claiming now. You are the HEALER; observant, cooperative, informative, and expressive.

This is the role name and not the actual role, right?

Jesus christ, I was asleep. Apparently, unlike some of you, I don't sprew out defences in my sleep.

Claim Protector - Role: Psychiatrist.

Target was Twistedspoon on Night One. - I though I hit on target here because Twisted got all pissy about the SK jibe I made earlier plus there haven't been any kills.
Targetted Parama

I doubt that there is a SK in the game. So either you are either a town psychiatrist placed in the game for bastard reasons and it's just supposed to be a useless role like a name cop or you're scum with a fake claim. I think it is much more likely that you are scum based on the reasons that I've already stated.

Ponderizations from before:
I disagree, active lurking is anti-town, lurking is anit-game. I've been prodded two or three times this game, when I have posted it's been an attempt at providing content. I don't see how the post that Fishy quoted provides any sort of evidence for a motive of killing Kanye. Personally, I think a name cop would benefit scum a lot more than it would town. Here's a game with a Mafia Tracker, that's kind of similar to a watcher in the fact you wouldn't expect mafia to have that role.

I have seen no real attempt from you to provided content of any kind. I also don't see how the name cop is effective to anybody, town or scum.

To be honest, I'm not really sure. I've been entertaining the theory that their may be an SK without a kill or the scum faction doesn't have a kill - I mean look at the other roles in this game.

The kill is what makes the SK an SK instead of another third party role.

or they have a kill which has a nonstandard mechanic (arsonist, for example). Seeing as this game has shown no evidence of nonstandard mechanics, I'd say it's safe to eliminate option 3

Two of the same role isn't a nonstandard mechanic?

[Chair]

Two of the same role isn't a nonstandard mechanic?

Frankly, it probably used to be, but site meta has changed. Of recent completed large normals, i can think of one that had two hiders, one that had two cops...etc. I can also remember a mini normal that had a tracker and a 1-shot tracker. Some mods put in multiple of a role specifically to challenge meta (like shanba in frogs mafia which had two jailkeepers). If it appears in normals, it really isn't nonstandard.
-implosion

[Zang]

There's a difference between a large game and a mini and although there have been some mini games with two of the same role, it isn't that common. Especially two of the same role twice. It's at least as common as an arsonist or other nonstandard SK type role.

[RedPanda]

yes healers my role name. not my role.

[Fishythefish]

This is prod avoidance - I might not have time to make a real post this weekend.

[Lurconis]

So I am VOTE: Haylen as there has been no evidence of an SK. A name cop is useless but it can at least can be used a psycchiatrist in a game without an SK is completely pointless. I feel this was a fake claim to try and buy time.

[camn]

the game is within the game.
the pattern is clear from the inside.

PeregrineV

- 1

( Johhog )

fishythefish

- 1

( RedPanda )

Haylen

- 3

( Chair Zang Lurconis )

NOT VOTING:

( Haylen fishythefish Parama PeregrineV )

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.
Deadline is

WEDNESDAY, October 12th

, 8pm MY TIME.. . Or whenever I get around to it.