Mini 1250: That 70s Smalltown - GAME OVER

[hiplop]

thats different now >_> you were being quiet

[Quilford]

Do it.

[farside22]

QUILFORD:

I asked you a few more question here
This is once again a 3rd request.

Also while I have your attention please tell me what you think of IceGuy and MOI.

[kdowns]

Iceguy, I never fully agreed to ordering the JK to direct his block because if we do, the scum would probably attempt to kill someone else N1

[farside22]

Iceguy, I never fully agreed to ordering the JK to direct his block because if we do, the scum would probably attempt to kill someone else N1

Is this all you have to say? What is your thoughts about players so far?

[kdowns]

Eh, for now as this was the one thing my name was brought up in.

Yet, the MoI and Iceguy case is looking like it possibly is going somewhere while giving me a headache.

[Seacore]

Awesome contribution, I'm so glad we decided not to policy lynch your role.

[kdowns]

Policy lynches tend to lead to a mislynch

In my case it would of been a mislynch

[ConSpiracy]

@CS: While I disagree with your reasoning on why IceGuy needs to be on there (I believe MOI is scum and would take out the most beneficial role to the town and I believe IceGuy to be town). There is a double voter ability and a few other players that haven't said much.
As for your issues with me. I'll just say fair enough for now, but IGMEOU.

True enough, I forgot about the double voter.
However our lurkers in this game (which are quite a few, I blame MoI and IceGuy) aren't being vocal at all. Their lack of voting hurts wagons being formed.
And are you seriously leaving it at this? If you find me scummy, why would you?

hey moi explain my scum meta right now. Apparently Im playing exactly like it; even though I've never played with MoI as scum; and hes never had any reason to look at my meta. If anythnig, this is my town meta.

Come the fuck at me

This is not how I expected you to be playing.
Who are your top three scum-reads?

[farside22]

True enough, I forgot about the double voter.
However our lurkers in this game (which are quite a few, I blame MoI and IceGuy) aren't being vocal at all. Their lack of voting hurts wagons being formed.
And are you seriously leaving it at this? If you find me scummy, why would you?

True, but it's early. Mb53 is known to flake out, I expect him to be replaced. Still waiting on the replacement for Jason as well.
As for the second part, it's partly that I have a scum read on Quilford and I think you questioning him and pressing him has helped. I question you more about you trying to be nice to me when your typically suspicious of me, plus when you started the game you didn't make a whole lot of sense and it bothered me because I find you typically to be sensible in your views and comments when you are town.

[hiplop]

VOTE: moi cant remember if i did this ornpt

[Quilford]

How is Iam's reaction to asking you scummy?

Because I was clearly not being serious.

I don't see how he painted you as if not scum then stupid light.

"What exactly do you expect to achieve by calling people scum for no reason whatsoever"

[kondi2424]

@Mod: V/LA until Friday.

[farside22]

How is Iam's reaction to asking you scummy?

Because I was clearly not being serious.

I don't see how he painted you as if not scum then stupid light.

"What exactly do you expect to achieve by calling people scum for no reason whatsoever"

1> Really Iam is physic. I had no clue!
Iam when where you going to tell me. I know tell me who is scum. Come on you apparently know what people are thinking here!

2> It's a valid question. You make a statement, you expected someone to call you out and your saying that it's scummy to ask you about your reads and know your not serious?

[farside22]

VOTE: moi cant remember if i did this ornpt

Why? I know you float and don't say much usually, but I'm curious to know why you are voting Moi.

[MagnaofIllusion]

So the thread has had at least 36 hours to breathe since my last back and forth with Iceguy. Let’s see what has happened.

--

No, I don't think IceGuy is scummy. Yet, I wonder if MoI will be lynched when he deliberately stays of the wagon. Something we can do is wait for a L-2 (not L-1 for quickhammering) and see if two other people want to vote him. Then we will force a third player to vote him, too, and voila, IceGuy is off the wagon.

Direct defense of Iceguy noted.

Lol contradiction. I am not allowed to think someone is scum when his PR is useful, but MoI himself is.
Let's lynch this guy.

Um, that’s a bullshit conclusion and you know it. I don’t think Iceguy is scum because of his claim. I think he’s scum because of his behavior. In fact my stance is exactly the opposite – I will not lynch a player because their role is more useful to scum than Town but will happily lynch a scummy player regardless of role.

Also, what is the use of claiming who is in my neighbourhood? Once said player is in my neighbourhood,

he knows I am confirmed.

If I am roleblocked, I will put myself a 1v1 with Quilford and if I haven't put anyone in my neighbourhood it is noticed very fast. Meh, this way my being neighbourizer is very boring and barely useful at all.

1. Please explain what a successful Neighborization confirms (in the bolded context)
2. What benefits do you have for NOT claiming your Neighbor from the Night before. All it allows is for you to more carefully hide motives if you are scum (including not Neighborizing and making the kill instead). As Town you get no benefit at all that I can see. And yes, secret consulations isn't a benefit when you are the known Neighborizor.

--

Iceguy stated why he wasn't on the wagon.

Um … so what?

His reasoning is not Town-oriented. So just because he stated a reason doesn’t mean it is credible.

Who do you believe is scum on your wagon if you are town?

At this point anyone on my wagon shouldn’t feel safe. Sorry … scum doesn’t get the privilege of knowing whether they have a good chance at getting a double-bag on Town with my lynch.

--

hey moi explain my scum meta right now. Apparently Im playing exactly like it;

even though I've never played with MoI as scum

; and hes never had any reason to look at my meta. If anything, this is my town meta.

The bolded is not accurate.

Your scum meta is basically what you are doing now … hanging back in the background and letting others (Ice, myself, Quilford, etc) drive the conversation. You hop in (get it, it’s a pun ) make really soft, non-scum hunting commentary (ISOs 5, 6, 9), vote with little reasons and no follow-up (ISO 7), make safe comments (ISO 8 where you call two non-suspected people Town, say you have no read on flaker MB53 [who would] ) and react in a way that shows Cognitive Dissonance (ISO 11 where you freak out of me saying you were playing to scum meta without explanation when you did the EXACT same thing to Quilford).

Not Town play in the least.

--

@Mod: V/LA until Friday.

Not surprising in the least that Kondi has given no content and then claims V/LA.

[IceGuy]

Why MoI is scum, abridged

The single most important scumtell (i.e. the one which would justify a vote on his own) is 6. Other strong scumtells are 2, 4, 7, 8, 12, 13. 9 is a nice recap.

Spoiler: 1. Justification for picking Red

What was your thought process for picking Vengeful townie?

It was a combination of playing to my wincon and a little bit of greediness.

Wincon -

1. If I drew Town I wanted to be sure any scum did not have access to it as it gives scum a free kill. Reducing the number of kills in a Small game is paramount to Town’s success IMO. Dayplay needs as many shots as possible to get scum lynches.
2. If I drew Mafia / SK it helps my wincon to varying degrees.

Notice how he elaborates on why his role benefits him when he's town, but confines himself to saying "it helps my wincon to varying degrees" for Mafia and SK. Why doesn't he give a better justification how his role helps him as scum? Maybe because that would (partially) reveal a plan he's put out for himself, and players could simply compare his plan with his play, connect the dots and see he's scum?

Spoiler: 2. Claiming a scumtell when it didn't happen

And this is just scum trying to throw town into disarray. Neighborizer, backup, and inventor all need to be directed since:

- an undirected town player brings no extra benefit (for neighborizer and inventor, scum could try to kill the target but that's mostly wasting a kill; with backup, scum can't interfere at all),
- an undirected scum player does a lot of damage to town (scum circle for neighborizer; extra night action or loss of vote for town for inventor; powerful role in scum's hands for backup).
- it is easy to check whether the player followed the directions.

The other night actions could be undirected, with the exception of JK and kill delay with regard to Seacore; but it also might make sense to direct them to deflect the scum's kill from a powerful role.

[...]

The preceeding is an Appeal to Fear. Noted.

Note how I give a perfectly logical reason why actions should be directed (even with scenarios!) and MoI calls it an "Appeal to Fear".

Spoiler: 3. Intentional misrepresentation

@Iceguy -

I want your opinion on the record - you support the 'Kill the Role' approach that Iam and Seacore pushed, correct?

when my justification for voting kdowns was...

This is bad. I mean, bad as in caught scum by chance bad.

Spoiler: 4. Irrelevant distractions and another fake scumtell

I argued that farside's role (backup) should be directed, and lay out why there is definitely no harm done if she's town, and a lot to be gained if she's scum.

His response...

You haven’t shown the benefit of NOT directing the backup. Your ‘It keeps dangerous powers out of scum hands’ is a hypothethecial. Are you asserting Farside is scum? And what powerful roles are you seeking to keep out? Until you do so all you are doing is fear-mongering.

You didn’t answer – do you think farside is scum?

Of course I don’t have her as confirmed Town … that’s not the point. Your reasoning on why farside’s ability should be directed is predicated on farside-scum. So it’s simply an Appeal to Fear if you are trying to assert reasons why she should be directed if you don’t actually have reason to think she is scum.

In the meantime you again dodge the facts - that you are predicating the so-called advantages to Town of directing her action when it’s only advantageous if she is scum. And you steadfastly refuse to take a stance on that element.

Basically, he claims I'm appealing to fear because I'm pushing a plan that helps us

in the case

she's scum, and

at least

does no damage if she's town. He avoids discussing the actual merits of the plan because he knows he's on losing ground, so he's trying to deflect attention.

I ask him...

So far, you've failed to give a pro-town reason why we shouldn't coordinate night actions.

...and his response is:

The burden of proof is on you to provide a convincing reason why coordinating night actions is a Pro-Town action. Your arguments so far fail the logic test.

He flat-out refuses to answer my question.

Spoiler: 5. Defending kdowns because of Seacore's case, or a Contradiction

Um what case? The “His role benefits scum potentially the most, lynch him Day 1 screw scumhunting” 'case' (I'm using ''s because it really isn't a case at all)? If so any response is a Town tell because that is a stupid and scummy ‘case’.

Note how he explicitly says how any response to Seacore's case is a town tell.

I ask for clarification and get this answer...

And I’ll tell you once again – I do NOT find kdown’s response to the ‘case’ scummy in the least. Because the case itself is scummy.

So he essentially says that a response to a bad case can not be scummy. Period.

Later, he claims:

Yes. I'm not giving him a free pass simply because the iaau/Seacore case was bad.

And I’m asserting his reaction is in no way scummy.

So...is he town because the case on him was bad, or is he town because his response was town? I can imagine why MoI is intentionally ambiguous - kdowns' response

was

scummy as hell.

Spoiler: 6. Another blatant intentional misrepresentation

I ask kdowns:

Go explain:
- whom of iaau and Seacore is scum and why;
- why you didn't vote one of them;
- what your reads are;
- what your utility to town (as compared to other roles) is.

kdowns answers:
(to the question "whom of iaau and Seacore is scum and why"):

I'd say Seacore on the basis of pushing for a Policy lynch.

(to the question "what your reads are"):

Reads: Iam and Seacore Null Scum

I call him out on the contradiction (first he says only Seacore is scum, later he says iaau and Seacore are both "Null Scum"):

Reads: Iam and Seacore Null Scum

So iaau and Seacore are now both "null scum", whatever that is?

So what does MoI do? He deliberately clips the quote and takes it out of context to twist it into a "scumtell":

So iaau and Seacore are now both "null scum", whatever that is?

See this furthers my scum read on you. Having a null to scum read on someone is pretty standard Mafiascum play. That you are trying to push it as something that isn’t obvious is scummy.

Spoiler: 7. Scummy voting

UNVOTE: Seacore

My vote will likely be going to either Cons, Iceguy or on an outside shot Iam pending on the next round of responses and posting.

Read: I'm his preferred lynch. ConSpiracy is the alternative if my wagon doesn't work out (his wagon already has four votes). iaau is either a scumbuddy being weak-bussed or yet another alternative.

Spoiler: 8. Flat-out lie

I find Iceguy's case to be mix of overapplication of Wikitells (see how often he uses the word Mudslinging in that post) and a sad Meta attack (he fails to mention half of the things he attacked me for in said game were WHEN I WAS TOWN, since I was recruited N1).

When I'm comparing his behavior on the other game's D2 (when he already was scum) to his current behavior:

For meta reference: see this game (starting MoI ISO #32) where MoI was scum from day 2

D1 played only a small part in the case, and of course MoI knows this.

Spoiler: 9. Repetition, Repetition, Repetition

But that’s why I think you are scum … your play is scummy. You use rhetoric and Appeals to Repetition as opposed to using logic to analyse motives. You use Appeals to Fear to smear those pointing out how your ‘Direct all Night actions’ plan is Pro-scum. You call someone scum but then refuse to vote them because you are afraid for your life – that’s a Scum motivation not a Town one.

So once again … I’m calling you scum because you are scum. Scum scared to actually vote for the Vengeful Townie.

Note how this short paragraph contains

seven

mentions of "scum" or "scummy" directed at me, but

zero

actual quotes or other references (such as links) to my play.

But let's take the allegations apart.

Most of them are pulled out of thin air.
- He claims I used rhetoric and Appeals to Repetition instead of logic, when I simply didn't. Actually, Appeal to Repetition is a common scum-MoI tactic.
- He also claims I wanted to direct

all

night actions, when I only wanted to direct

some

night actions and claims he's shown that this plan of directing all night actions - which doesn't exist and has never been discussed because it hasn't been brought to the table - as "pro-scum".
- Furthermore, there is "Appeal to Fear" again, when I've actually given a logical answer and showed how my answer was not an Appeal to Fear. He dropped this line of attack when I challenged him, and is now trying to rerun it, hoping somebody doesn't remember my response.

And there is one claim that's not invented, but taken out of context to make me appear scummy. He claims I'm not voting him because I'm scum. I've already shown around a million times why it makes perfect sense for town-IceGuy to not be voting him.

Spoiler: 10. Claiming something is scummy, and then doing it himself

I included this one mostly for the laughs:

Classic false dichotomy. You only consider the possibility I am scum. Town of course tend to not be 100% sure as you are presenting here. But that’s of course because you are scum.

Spoiler: 11. "You lied! And you're scum!"

No comment:

You're pushing a plan that doesn't change anything if she's town and benefits us if she's scum.

I’m not pushing any plan. I’m just calling yours anti-Town. Continue to lie about that over and over and over.

So you're saying directing night actions is anti-Town, yet you're not pushing for not directing night actions? Or how I'm supposed to interpret this?

WTF is this? Seriously.

I’ve called the people floating the “we have to direct all Night actions” scummy. How is that not pushing for not directing Night actions?

I don’t understand how you can come to any other conclusion.

Oh wait … I take that back … it’s because you are scum.

Spoiler: 12. So, what town role should push scum on?

Lulz. The odds your track actually yields results that confirm scum (assuming for the sake of this argument you are Town which I don’t buy) is pretty low. But sure, ignore the facts that pushing on hypo-Town you as scum makes no logical sense.

So what town role should scum push on?

No answer so far, although he's replied to the rest of the post. I wonder why he has ignored this part...

Spoiler: 13. More Meta Tells

Keep in mind this quote, from after the Execution Mafia game...

I certainly did accent my arguments with you with rhetoric. It helped pull you off arguing the facts and instead pushed you to an emotionally based attack which damaged your chances IMO.

And then, look at this quotes from the current game...

Regarding your meta – I’m just going to chuckle and leave it at that. If you think a single game where I changed alignment midstream is going to suddenly let you read my scum games you are either scum making it up (which I think you are) or pretty stupid.

Oh that’s right … it would show how bad your play was there. Hmmm … then again that would bolster the perception you are now Town since your play is equally bad here.

I do have serious questions about your ability to understand the game and how it is actually played outside the ‘Wiki’ given what you are posting.

What was the outcome of that game? Scum sweep. I’m calling you bad because you had all this ‘knowledge’ and in the end you weren’t able to convince people to actually follow you. Because your cases were poorly presented and lacked compelling logic.

Since you’ve never listed the benefits of directing that made any sense I’m just going to assume you are going to stick with your position regardless. Nice attempt to spin what I said into WIFOM. Ok not really but I thought your ego could use a boost.

This is what MoI does when he doesn't want to argue the facts. He's saying it himself.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Iceguy has the chance to actually hammer someone he thinks is scum, but of course doesn't take it.

Remember people ... this behavior is not Town oriented behavior. He's scum.

Once I flip please don't be stupid (those of you who are Town) and forget this. The Serial Killer would do well to shoot him tonight regardless as it gives them a chance to avoid being endgamed early.

[hiplop]

hey moi link to a game where ive ever played like that as scum

[hiplop]

i do that when bored, not alignment diven...so gtfo scum

[MagnaofIllusion]

hey moi link to a game where ive ever played like that as scum

I will when able. Link me to completed games as scum when you DON'T play that way.

[hiplop]

ive never played like that as scum, except my first game

[MagnaofIllusion]

Why no links then?

[The Fonz]

Hey guys, had to travel to a funeral today, just got home and i'm knackered, vc/replacement chasing etc will all take place tomorrow.

[hiplop]

id have to link all games,and im not defending myself w/ meta, im attacking your shitlogic