In post 949, AGar wrote: In post 944, MacDougall wrote:
I'm so far down the rabbit hole of muddled understanding and some of you have tunneled me so far that nothing I do is ever going to pull me free and I've been on the hook for days. Oh well, I'll give it a shot.
That's not true at all. But you're going to have to actually, y'know, prove that your town through something other than "OMG I'M TOWN GUYS!" or picking on the easy lynch. Rookie scum mistakes.
Well I can't work out how to explain myself. I have read loads of ISO's but nobody really sticks out to me, except Vezok, who you claim isn't scum. So I'm fucked.
MacDougall wrote:
"Guys, this defense is laughable?" I didn't even say that, you are taking my words and bending them to your own means.
I was mocking the fact that you were defending yourself with "OMG I'M TOWN GUYS AND AM I THE ONLY ONE?"
No you weren't, your "this defense is laughable" is in response to me pointing out that the idea of me explaining what the scum would do, is what I've done, and as a result am scum. Which is laughable. As scum, if I have a plan, I wouldn't reveal it as a scum tell on another player for the obvious reason that I'm doing it.
MacDougall wrote:
Called on the what? You are the only one actively defending Vezok so it's not like your opinion is the only opinion floating around.
Oh really now.
I said you were called on your bullshit, as in your weak attempt to get Vezok lynched to have an easy lynch. There are three posts calling you on your pisspoor logic.
None of these posts are defending Vezok. They are attacking me for using poor logic, but not once have any of these posters, like you, suggested that Vezok is definite scum. Again you haven't met the point head on. I didn't say "Nobody else has attacked me." Did I? No.
MacDougall wrote:
Vezok has very few posts in the game but they are all bad... I agree with your point that he could just be town with no clue, but I still think he's a great lynch candidate.
Could be town. Great lynch candidate.
Could you, y'know, NOT make this so easy?
It sure is easy to paint a town player scum when you take an entire sentence out of context! Sure he COULD be town, so what if he COULD be town! SodaSpirit COULD be town. I AM town. That isn't stopping you from pushing our apple carts. Any lynch candidate ever could be town. This post is baaaaaaaaaad.
MacDougall wrote:
I had a read of Soda's ISO and from the first post he reads badly and a Soda lynch will give us more to work with than a Vezok lynch. Of course that won't be the case if you just assume "MacDougall busing another scum buddy." I don't really care to paint my read clearly because a quick glance at his ISO will give you all the same reads that I now have. Are you suggesting that I am busing Soda? That would mean that my hammer on Empking, my first vote on StrangerCoug and now my wagon vote on Soda are all bus votes. Sure, it's possible that I hate my own team that much but eventually I will run out of teammates if I keep voting to get them lynched. Soda isn't even the vote leader right now, so why would I bus him if he were my teammate?
- You conveniently read Soda's ISO after Vezok's lynch support all but failed. -
I had read Soda's ISO before, I read it again for a bit more clarity.
- Actually, Soda lynch will still give us more to work with than a Vezok lynch, because Soda is more likely to be town. -
Okay, so now you flip flop. You are suggesting that lynching Soda is a better lynch because he is more likely to be town. Yet up there, you lambaste me for the same thing.
- So you want a lynch.... without putting effort in. -
Well No Lynch pretty clearly is even worse. You said before that I'm supposed to find someone to lynch, try to get them lynched, and then inevitably fall on a wagon. I'm following your protocol Agar and you are attacking me for it.
- I'm suggesting you could very well be bussing soda. -
Well I'm not, so you are suggesting wrong again.
- No, it would mean that one of either your hammer on Empking or your
2nd
(key point here) "follow-the-cop" vote on StrangerCoug was bussing (either is a prime bus vote) and then your vote on Soda could be a bus, or could be multiball scum-on-different-scum action. -
Why is the fact that my vote was after Shinki a key point to you? Sure it points out I was wrong, but how is it a key point about why I'm scum? Shinki didn't even want SC lynched! Voted for him and told everyone else to vote for me. You haven't proceeded to explore why me following the town gunsmith into voting for a scum makes me scum. Okay so I could have "bussed" StrangerCoug, who in that case would be one of my scum teams power roles. But that would mean that I took the lynch off myself, to put it on him. Why the hell would I do that? Sure, I could be a power role for my team too, but the chances of that are unlikely, and even still, I was further down the lynch path than him so taking the wagon off me to put it on him? Not on your life. Hammering Empking, well I can't really make the same argument. I legit didn't think he was scum, didn't want him lynched, but hammered anyway because it was gonna happen anyway. Terrible town play, and I deserve criticism for it.
- Besides, I bussed all 3 of my partners aggressively in one game (and then proceeded to pretty much coast on massive town-cred), and have a habit of "KILL ALL PARTNERS" syndrome when I'm scum. It happens, it's not as unlikely as you think.
This last sentence reads like you are talking to a town player. If you really believed I bused my whole team I can't see you wording it that way. I can't even see you saying that to someone you legit thought was scum busing.
MacDougall wrote:
It's interesting to note that that reads post I made on Vezok was when I was forced to. I'll be the first to admit that I'm not the best (or more experienced) mafia player, especially when it comes to making town posts that seem town. Everything I do as town has a scum tinge and I don't really know why. But I read Vezok as scum. I find it difficult to explain why at times because I make reads more on word choice, phrasing etc. than actual words. Words can be faked, the way it's phrased is much harder to fake. Unfortunately all I can say in response to your breaking of my Vezok argument, is that I read him incorrectly. The first post you quoted read to me like he was suggesting that Shinki was fake claiming cop, while now you have pointed out that he was trying to suggest that Shinki wasn't a cop at all. I'm sure I wasn't alone at the time misreading that. The latter, then seemed to me like a back pedal. I'm sure it's believable that I would read Vezok incorrectly.
Believable? Yes. It's also believable that you - as scum - saw an open opportunity to try and jump on a player that doesn't play well, but has a higher likelihood of being town than scum, and decided to try and push invalid points as a case against him to get town cred, and didn't expect it to backfire quite like this.
I would definitely imagine your scenario is far less likely, in any sense. My point "I misread him". Your point "Convoluted garbage that only makes sense inside one bubble."
MacDougall wrote:Anyway, I'm not scum... But if you're already convinced, you can stop tunneling me now and try to focus on some other players... you might actually find some real scum if you look at someone other than me.
If you were more focused on "scumhunting" instead of not dying (another scumtell, oh by the way - since scum have a harder time winning when their team dies [osnap]), you'd realized that I've pointed out several players leaning either way on my reads. Manho, town. Peregrine, townish. Vezok, townish. MattP, not likely to be scum so townish. Soda, scum. Magua, scum. I won't give you a list of every read I've got, but I've given you plenty to work with.
It's difficult to focus on "scumhunting" and not dying, when the two go hand in hand. I attempt to scum hunt, you paint it as me trying to move the blame to another player, conclude that player is town, and I'm still scum. Why bother, when I have you undermining every attempt I have at scumhunting on one hand, and on the other demanding I do it?
P-Edit1: Because there were two kills last night, and we've killed two anti-town players from different factions. WOAH. -
There can be other reasons for this. It doesn't conclusively say anything. There could have been a bomb or a double killer... there are loads of things that could be. Granted your scenario is probably a little more likely, but I still wouldn't be conclusively ruling out the other option.
P-Edit2:Because a rolecop isn't a role you give to a lone 3rd party. A lone rolecop is kinda dick since, y'know, he's just a neutral rolecop. No mod would do that unless this was bastard modding - which Wraith did not warn us of.