Open 347: White Flag Mafia (Game Over)

[Equinox]

Vote: kondi2424

[Equinox]

Okay, cool. Fruit Basket is town.

Unvote, Vote: Quilford

[Equinox]

In due time.

[Equinox]

Unvote, Vote: SleepyKrew

[Equinox]

Like a shark.

[Equinox]

Let's talk about Fruit Basket. Do you think that post is more likely to come from town or scum?

[Equinox]

Hmm. Not sure what to think of that. You're not the droids I'm looking for, anyway.

Secrets are fun, especially if they help me find other people on the same wavelength as I am. That would indicate that they are more likely than not to be town.

You feel jumpy. Therefore, I shan't sheep you.

[Equinox]

I thought we were playing Dodgeball.

[Equinox]

Hey, bvoigt. What's up?

Nobody Special, I know you want vengeance for all those times I incorrectly accused you of being a scum god, but unfortunately I am bulletproof and will have to continue to scream and wag my finger.

[Equinox]

Ew, rainbow vote count. I don't want to move, though.

kondi2424, why trekker?

[Equinox]

The thread hasn't even been open for 24 hours, ScreamingHawk. Not sure what you're talking about when you refer to "lurkers."

Unvote, Vote: fatlikepig

Me like wagons.

[Equinox]

Actually, never mind. Can we get a wagon started in this direction, please?

Unvote, Vote: SleepyKrew

Can someone compare Equinoxtown vs. Equiscum for me? Please?

You can do it yourself. My wiki has all of my games.

[Equinox]

No read at the moment. He's acting as I would've expected him to in a game with me.

[Equinox]

Any reason you're singling out Nobody Special when others have exhibited similar behavior?

[Equinox]

*eyes Amrun*

[Equinox]

That game still haunts me in my dreams sometimes.

The shame of my mafiascum.net career, really.

Anyway, not seeing what bvoigt and kondi2424 are seeing in Cross_Pollination, but I'll probably get the answer to that the next time the bees come to visit. Similarly, I'm not seeing what you're seeing in SleepyKrew, Amrun, so help me out?

[Equinox]

Right now? His vote on me. It feels unnatural. His play also reminds me of Open 339, hence why I'm also eying you.

The impression I got off Cross_Pollination's post there was newbie confusion, but yeah, I guess I see it now. Still interested in why he's poking Nobody Special in particular, though.

[Equinox]

You've been saying that for a while. Not seeing it.

[Equinox]

Cross_Pollination, what made you single out Nobody Special for a vote in particular when others had exhibited similar types of behavior at that point?

[Equinox]

Given that kondi is scum I find Equinox's jump off the wagon at L-1 with no reasoning suspicious. Care to explain?

No.

[Equinox]

Unvote

I'll try to check in later tonight and see what's up here, but I've got some urgent business to take care of both on- and off-site, and this game is my last priority right now. Sorry. You'll hear from me tomorrow at the latest, though.

[Equinox]

Wall incoming.

My previous mafia experience is just games on another forum I visit.

And I found his posts suspicious.

Out of curiosity, how long were the Day phases at your other forum?

Okay, so you found Nobody Special's posts suspicious. Which ones? Why were they suspicious? I'll reiterate that others were exhibiting similarly troll-like behavior at that point as well; Equinox's, fatlikepig's, Fruit Basket's, kondi2424's, and Quilford's posts were arguably similar, so why are they different?

When you children stop playing around, and the real game begins, let me know.

This game doesn't start on page 85, for the record. I may be grilling Cross_Pollination, but I don't like where you've gone either. Any thoughts on anyone besides Fruit Basket? Do you think Fruit Basket's "cases are scummy" comment is influenced by alignment?

Also, policy lynching Kondi is probably a bad idea since we're at mylo tomorrow if he's town.

Probably town.

Amrun is probably town, too. I'm feeling better about SleepyKrew, though there's still a question I want to ask:

SleepyKrew, why did it take you so long to vote me for dodging your questions?

I think I know who one head of Fruit Basket is, and that makes me worried about their constant pushing for Nobody Special's wagon. You say Cross_Pollination was "remarkably honest" about not having any scum reads, which is townish. Okay, that makes sense. What do you think of Cross_Pollination singling out Nobody Special when there were other people posting similar fluff in the thread? Who's scum with Nobody Special?

And Amrun is acting all weird.

How? Amrun's looking like Amrun to me.

Did I? My bad. I had pig in mind for a vote for a while. Must never have gone through with it

This post. I don't like it.
Why didn't you say anything about someone you thought was scummy? What made you change your mind on voting?

Interested in this, too, ScreamingHawk.

[Equinox]

Hmm. Let's have fun with this.

Vote: Fruit Basket

[Equinox]

The kondi2424 wagon swelled to L-1 not even halfway down page 1. As much as I like bandwagons, I prefer when game Days last a little longer than one page, especially with White Flag.

[Equinox]

Quilford, you called kondi2424 scum for being helpful, which you thought was out of meta for him. Now you're leaning town on him. What changed?

[Equinox]

Okay, so trying to get an understanding of Nobody Special's perspective of this game in order to determine his alignment is a soft question? That's awesome.

How does maybe knowing who I am affect my push on NS? If anything I think it should make you

more

confident I'm right, my history of reading him is actually really good. Or maybe you have the wrong girl teehee.

No, it makes me paranoid.

You keep saying how Nobody Special's second, third, and fifth posts are scummy. Disregard my opinion of Nobody Special; I want to know where you're coming from. Case, go.

[Equinox]

Haha. Very funny. Try again.

[Equinox]

So who do you actually think is scum, Equinox?

I'm working on it.

[Equinox]

Unvote, Vote: Cross_Pollination

[Equinox]

ScreamingHawk, is there a reason you're ignoring fatlikepig's questions?

Cross_Pollination, is there a reason you're ignoring mine? What's your opinion on the other players in the game?

[Equinox]

Unvote, Vote: Nobody Special

[Equinox]

Yeah, okay, ScreamingHawk is town.

[Equinox]

His explanation in post 314 reads as honest.

[Equinox]

[Equinox]

That's my line. You're voting for things that aren't tells, and you're not talking about anything substantial. You have a habit of doing the latter anyway, but you've been voting for the weirdest reasons. At least I was able to get a piece of your thought process when you posted your reads in In the Court of the Gods, even though I thought your reads were weird; here, you're deliberately being obtuse, like you don't want to reveal too much of what's on your mind.

For you, that's a scum tell.

[Equinox]

*sniffs trekker*

[Equinox]

...and you think removing your vote somehow helps with that. Okay.

[Equinox]

The fact that this wagon is STALLING should be a sign.

It should be a call to arms.

Nobody Special is refusing to say anything because he doesn't want to implicate his buddies and lose on Day 2.

That's too bad, though, because SleepyKrew's probably it.

Mod: Prod Cross_Pollination and DonJosh, please.

[Equinox]

I wait with bated breath, DonJosh.

SleepyKrew, you really, honestly, have never had a time when you thought you were going to do something, reconsidered, and then forgot you reconsidered and thought you did it after all?

fatlikepig and trekker, what's the scum motivation for the other to not answer your question? Seriously.

I'll take a look at Nobody Special's meta later today. Nobody Special, those are reads, but the reasons you've stated for them have been lackluster. They're not even tells. So aAre you going to expound further? What do you think of everyone else in the game?

[Equinox]

Poor SleepyKrew just doesn't get it, but it's okay because there's something that's keeping the blinders on.

Cross_Pollination, do you really have no comments whatsoever about what's happened since your last post 4 days ago?

[Equinox]

Self-imposed limited access until Friday evening for midterm examination.

[Equinox]

Urgh. I shouldn't be here, but looking at my books makes me depressed. I'll just spam all over this site to make the world all better.

DonJosh's catch up is underwhelming. What do you think of the NS wagon? No opinion at all?

Its crap. All votes off, pl0x. More votes on trekker.

What votes do you not like on the Nobody Special wagon? What's your opinion of Nobody Special? You can't call a wagon crap without backing up your stuff.

ScreamingHawk is literally confirmed town now.

Help me out here. Why does this logic not apply to SleepyKrew?

I'm a vanilla townie/

[Equinox]

I don't know, Quilford. The way Nobody Special deftly avoids making any connections to people by never posting any useful reads looks like his scum play to me.

What's curious to me is why Amrun of all people didn't recognize the tell Fruit Basket was going for. You cleared someone in the other White Flag Mafia for forgetting the nature of the game setup; what makes ScreamingHawk's post different?

[Equinox]

Actually, there's something I want to look at. Don't hammer until I come back, please.

Unvote

[Equinox]

Oh, yeah. I forgot about that.

I don't disagree, Fruit Basket; I wanted to see your train of thought there.

[Equinox]

That's the most convincing argument I have ever seen.

[Equinox]

No hammers until I get a chance to sit down and read this thread.

[Equinox]

ScreamingHawk, it was 3 AM on Friday when I said it the first time. I had class and a quiz at 9 AM. I was also on record saying I'd be semi-V/LA until Friday evening for exams. If you thought I was doing any substantial reading of a 20+ page thread at those times, you're fucking insane.

I woke up this morning to calls for a hammer when I very clearly said I didn't want a hammer until I had the chance to do the reading. If you can't see WHY I might not want that, then you're fucking thick on top of that.

Inevitable question of "Y U NO READ NOW" is going to be answered with, "I have a pretty big and painful headache, so shut up until it goes away." Please and thank you.

[Equinox]

Actually, come to think of it... I think I know now why there aren't any serious counterwagons. I was worried before because the vote count was strangely lopsided, but Nobody Special's vote on me made it pretty clear.

Ihihi.

I still want to analyze this wagon before I throw down an L-1, though.

[Equinox]

We can lynch him after we kill Nobody Special. The thought I'm running with right now is that there's a good chance of DonJosh (or Cross_Pollination, actually, now that I think about it) being Nobody Special's buddy; Nobody Special accused me of being lurker scum when I've been fairly active in this game while ignoring the players who have truly been lurking.

Hmm. I was going to say this might be the reason why we don't have a counterwagon and that was what I wanted to investigate with a full thread reread, but looking at this vote count, I see that... I don't know. I'm pretty sure I'm right about Nobody Special, but that vote count's weird.

Okay, I'll shut up until I know what I'm talking about. Definitely reading today, so please hold me to this.

[Equinox]

Reread complete.

Vote: Nobody Special

I have strong town reads on Amrun, Fruit Basket, and ScreamingHawk. I have weaker town reads on bvoigt and fatlikepig. I want to put Quilford in that category as well, but there's something I need him to clarify. I don't have a read of kondi2424, which is kind of disturbing, but I'm willing to wait for a replacement. trekker I'm not sure about at this point; earlier, he was a town read, but his shenanigans before he replaced out were bad, particularly his refusal to respond to fatlikepig when fatlikepig had a point about trekker's behavior. Call me a fence-sitter, but I don't know what to think of trekker at the moment; my town read pre-shenanigans was pretty strong, and I'm not comfortable just throwing that out the window for a bout of trolling. I might reread him in isolation when my head isn't so warped. DonJosh and SleepyKrew are good candidates for Nobody Special's partners,

especially

SleepyKrew.

This leaves Twistedspoon. Cross_Pollination not answering questions is scummy, but I got the impression while reading through the thread that he wasn't actually reading the thread, despite saying at some point that he caught up in the thread. His post where he replaced out supports my belief here. I'm hoping to hear from Twistedspoon soon.

All right. Explanations for the above available on request. Otherwise, I'm going to sit back and count my sheep.

Amrun, what's your experience with Nobody Special?

Quilford, you seem to believe that kondi2424 isn't playing to his town meta; why did you have kondi2424 as a "slight lean town" read earlier? What changed between posts 243 and 525?

[Equinox]

I have a scum read of SleepyKrew. I don't like how he agreed with trekker and then turned around and called trekker scum; if you agree with someone's thought processes, then it makes better sense psychologically to believe them to be town like you are. This is basically the contrapositive of Amrun's pattern-matching town tell. There's also this:

IF all three scum are on my wagon, I would say they are: FruitBasket, Screaming Hawk, and Sleepy.

Sleepy is my least compelling read.

This post sounded really forced. Nobody Special also went through the trouble of asking SleepyKrew to support his meta, which should have implied that he thought SleepyKrew was town, except that Nobody Special turns around and does this when asked to give reads. It's very weird.

unvote

Vote: Equinox

Die, lurkerscum, die.

This suggests he's avoiding a real lurker. I know I've coasted for a bit due to exams and replacing into a large-paged game, but I was far from lurking; if Nobody Special thought I was lurking at my activity level, then the absence of Cross_Pollination or DonJosh should have been that much more striking. In fact, it probably was, which may be why he ignored Quilford shouting for a DonJosh counterwagon and Amrun shouting for a Cross_Pollination counterwagon. I'm more inclined toward it being DonJosh because DonJosh's voting behavior was outright odd, and I had no idea what was going through his mind for each of them.

[Equinox]

if you want a quick answer as to why I demanded that slot, it's because
1) after a brief skim of the first 7 or so pages I felt he was difficult to read and would like to know his alignment myself so that I wouldn't need to work it out

Did you like the answer?

[Equinox]

EBWOP:

This is basically the

contrapositive

inverse

of Amrun's pattern-matching town tell.

Clearly it is bedtime.

[Equinox]

I fucking turned off my alarm in my sleep again, so in the interest of time I'm not going to bother with walls with this post. I'll come back later. In the meantime, have some stream of consciousness.

My apparent 'ignoring' of c_p and DJ for lurking over Equi is quite simple. I know her; I don't know them as well. They ping my radar less than she does. It's like confirmation bias, only not quite.

They ping your radar, but you somehow missed me going V/LA?

Welcome, Twistedspoon. Damn, what are you, some kind of IC?

would certainly not want in this setup. Surely you can see that. It's not a great scum tactic to make enemies and if you have to you should at least provide a reason or two as to why a person is scummy or not a scum.
If you can show my why a scum NS would needlessly give himself 2 or 3 players who want his blood and his lynch then I'd happily vote him as he has done precious little else to convince me that he's town

The problem with those reads is that Nobody Special apparently made them for things that weren't tells. He called Fruit Basket scum for this and maybe also this, and then he called ScreamingHawk scum for this. None of those three things have any relevance to alignment. Furthermore, post 449 that you cited is far from bold. Two of his top suspects are there, and he provides no comments on the people on his wagon or how his wagon formed beyond a quip and forced "IF all three scum are on my wagon." SleepyKrew's been tacked on.

Welcome, pidgey! kondi2424 could be town, actually. Will dive later.

Welcome, [J]! omg stream of posts. Oh, yeah, this reminds me.

Can someone compare Equinoxtown vs. Equiscum for me? Please?

Fruit Basket never came back with the meta, and you didn't follow up on this. Why?

ScreamingHawk and SleepyKrew, you are aware that anyone who places a vote on Nobody Special at this point

lynches him

, right? It's reasonable for them to not vote him while others are catching up. Oh, hi, Twistedspoon.

Quilford using appeal to self-meta... *twitch*

I'm not lynching NS yet.

1) we haven't heard from DJ's rep
2) his uncaring play is similar to his town play
3) I still find some of his moves too bold for D1 scum

Since you seem to disagree, what do you think of the people who so far used meta to argue for Nobody Special-scum (i.e., Equinox and SleepyKrew)?

[J] is probably town.

That's silly.

fos: amrun

who what when where why

Still don't get the SH town look besides how one post could come across as sincere. Equi, could you go into more detail as to why you like SH this game if you still feel the same?

The post where ScreamingHawk talked about why he thought he voted fatlikepig when he didn't sounded sincere, and it didn't have that feel of someone scrambling to explain a mistake the way scum would in that situation. Furthermore, he town-slipped in a way I felt was genuine. Oh, Fruit Basket beat me to it.

Hmm. [J] forgot the setup, too. I think the town slip was mentioned in-thread before this already, so it's less of a town tell now, but I have a town read on [J] at this point anyway so whatever.

Eh, if Nobody Special flips scum, Twistedspoon is definitely town. If the other way around happens, the apocalypse is coming.

[Equinox]

All unlabeled quotes are from post 614.

This should have been discussed at the start of the game, the results and sharing of knowledge being both another weapon avaliable for every townie to use when judging players, and the discussion also has the beautiful effect of unnerving the huddling mafiosi cauding a fine compress of pressure, which when executed correctly, has the tantalising effect of causing all sorts of irrational play from the mafia as they try to dodge the mould they believe the town is hunting for.

Your avatar needs a top hat and a monocle.

I think White Flag works better when the setup isn't discussed. While it's nice to catch scum, it's far more important and effective to catch town; the fact that this is only a subtle change to town's win condition means it's fairly easy to find other townies. Furthermore, too much discussion of the setup leads to scum knowing how to game it to their advantage. It's better to let them be nervous than to teach them how to turn the chessboard around.

Spoiler: Equinox

Good God, do you know how to buddy people and stroke their egos? Is there a reason you're buttering me up here?

Hmm. I'm uneasy about Twistedspoon here. He talks about people and concludes with a trekker vote... okay. After reading his commentary on Cross_Pollination, I expected some talk about the people who were pushing Cross_Pollination and the people who talked about Cross_Pollination being scummy but didn't vote (such as yours truly). Nothing substantial. Except a vote on trekker, which is apparently a policy vote. I'm also having a lot of difficulty reading his tone because he appears to be roleplaying some sort of gentleman, which doesn't soothe my feelings.

---

I agree with SleepyKrew that pidgey's reads in his post 625 were like fence-sitting, but I'm comfortable with pidgey being town for whatever it was I caught him doing earlier this morning.

Okay. So you know where them laser beams go if Nobody Special flips scum. If Nobody Special flips town, then... uhh. I don't know, I suck?

---

EBWOPreview: Oh, actually, [J] just poked at me for this, so let's go ahead and have fun here.

Equi, I'd like to pick your brain on who you are looking at based on the flips of NS in both scenarios. (SK and FB can answer this too please)

TS/Equi/FLP, if you had to choose one of Amrun/SH/SK to go next, who and why? If it was between Bvoigt/FB then who?

If Nobody Special flips scum, I'm killing SleepyKrew straight up. Please refer to this and this. If Nobody Special flips town, I'm probably going after Twistedspoon because the posts where he kept insisting Nobody Special was town based on meta without pressuring the people who used meta to argue for Nobody Special's lynch are scummy in this instance; I'll also have to go back and look at Fruit Basket for pushing the wagon through like a bull stampedes through Pamplona, and it was something I was uneasy about earlier given a guess at one of Fruit Basket's heads.

I'm not voting Amrun or ScreamingHawk. I'm fairly certain they're town: Amrun for matching a lot of my thought patterns when I was rereading the thread, and ScreamingHawk for asking for a claim when this setup is pure vanilla. I do think town are more likely to forget the nature of a setup; scum would be painfully aware of their handicap and would, by association, be aware the setup is vanilla.

[Equinox]

Equi, that's something I am going to have to disagree with you on (TSscum possibility) he is possibly one of, if not the most, biggest town-read I have at the current time. The last time I played with him I had the exact same train of thought against him you are having now that his attitude makes you wary and things he is pushing/not pushing is a bit odd but it is coming from a town-intent I see. I do not see the scum intent behind his actions thus far. Plus the point you are making that if NS does flip town, to go after TS is a bit meh. He actually has done that before. I was pushing Jeraco in a game and he said that Jeraco was town for a while and that he was obvtown but I still tried his lynch, Jeraco flipped scum that game. =P

I also wanna say there was something with a person like Hoplip/Ghostlin but my memory is a bit foggy.

I'm also gonna re-look into SK connection to NS since you brought it up because I don't remember noting as such and actually thinking opposite for SK. I think because of there interactions, if one is scum the other cannot be.

Set-up mis-falter is a bit of a WIFOM reason to believe that town would be more likely to slip than scum.

Amrun, I'm just not getting really but maybe he's just weird for me to read.

Lack of scum-picks for me is dis-heartening. The only one I am really curious to look into more is Bvoigt, so what is your opinion on him Equi?

We'll see when Twistedspoon gets back to me about the meta thing. In the game you played with him, did Twistedspoon have the same buddying kind of attitude? That's the thing that bothers me more than anything else.

Yeah, setup falters are WIFOM, but I've seen it work often enough that I put my faith in it. There are certain things that scum don't do because they're not in the mindset to do them unless they have extensive experience; ScreamingHawk doesn't fall into the "experienced scum" category, I don't think.

I have a slight town read of bvoigt at the moment for... I have no idea what. It's not in my notes. Bleh. I can look into it if the world ends or something, but otherwise I don't think he's scum with Nobody Special.

[Equinox]

Holy shit, it's Day 1 and we're 30 pages?

[Equinox]

anyway Equinox TS paranoia looks legit and is a strong town tell based on what I know of her meta (which may range from an extensive knowledge to not very much at all)

FoS: Fruit Basket

[Equinox]

Now for the rest of you.

Unfortunately, the world is going to end tonight, but that's not stopping me from doing what I can to stop the zombie hordes!

Quilford, the only sign I'll take for confirmed town is the red. *grin* But okay. In any case, good luck.

Stuff Amrun has said about the NSwagon is what makes her defscum. She flips from totally against it to saying she'll hammer if necessary and claiming she never attacked the wagon.

Read the thread, boy.

having been NS's scumbuddy in the past i think i know his meta thankyou

His meta is similar as town or scum. Only difference is (iirc) he lurks even more and is even more reluctant to give names or reasons as scum

I asked you what you thought of the people who disagreed with you, not why you disagreed. Try again. What do you think of Equinox and SleepyKrew using Nobody Special's meta to argue for his lynch?

what?
How am I supposed to convince them that their previous expereince with NS was wrong? HOW?

Well, you could've tried, but right now my concern is why you're not more worried. Misuse of meta is a fairly good scum tell, yet you thought this was a mere

disagreement

? You're not worried about how I or SleepyKrew talked about Nobody Special? For God's sakes, I didn't even use any links! For all you knew, I was talking out of my ass.

Can I answer this? I'm asking because it isn't addressed to me and you'll only have my word for the comments that I'd make about my own playstyle here.

Well, if you want to answer, go for it. Though from you I'll need links.

@eqinox: am I not correct in my memory of you modding an open game I was in?

Yes. But you commented on my skill as a player, not as a moderator, and I've never played with you before. That makes me paranoid.

Can you get back to me when you read up a bit on Bvoigt? Tell me why you don't think he is scum with NS.

Gut feeling at the time given bvoigt's behavior. I can go back if need be, but now I don't think Nobody Special's flipping scum.

[Equinox]

Oh, yeah. I forgot about that. I guess he did, too, though to be fair it was indirect experience for both of us.

[Equinox]

Equinox, what did I not read?

Amrun was far from defending Nobody Special.

[Equinox]

Blargh.

I was going to instavote Fruit Basket today, but I'm still here and I think they would have shot me if they were scum. I need to think about Twistedspoon, too. I'll go over my notes later today.

Twistedspoon, what's your read of SleepyKrew?

[Equinox]

you were prepared to instavote me.you'd need to be alive for that to happen. walk me through this one.

i may or may not have shot you depending on who I may or may not be

Yes. At the end of Day 1 when I FoSed you, I said to myself, "I'm voting Fruit Basket tomorrow because they're probably scum." When I saw the flip today, I changed my mind. I made it fairly obvious for what I was suspecting you, and nobody was really suspicious of you at the end of the Day. It'd have been simple enough to just shoot me dead and then talk yourself out of whoever brought up their concerns on Day 2.

Hi all,
Sorry I'm

V / LA until Saturday

. I have exams thurs, fri and sat. I'll be reading the thread and trying to keep up but you wont be seeing much posting out of me.

Good luck on your exams. Thoughts before you go?

[Equinox]

so uh

Good news is that I'm caught up. Bad news is that I'm confused as all hell, and this game gives me a headache.

ScreamingHawk, fatlikepig, Amrun, Quilford, Fruit Basket, jerobbo, Twistedspoon are all reading to me as town right now. ScreamingHawk is obv. fatlikepig's been feeling like town. Amrun I haven't really changed my mind on, and her interactions with Fruit Basket haven't changed my mind either. I agree with Twistedspoon that Quilford's "I'M CONFIRMED TOWN YOU GUYS" is too bold for scum, and it gives me flashbacks to what I used to do when I used my red text meta. Twistedspoon says funny things but sounds genuine, as does jerobbo. Fruit Basket would have NKed me, seriously.

That leaves bvoigt, pidgey, and SleepyKrew, who I'll reread later. And I might as well reread everyone else too because clearly I have too many town reads.

Bleh. I don't know. Honestly, I shouldn't be posting before I actually reread the things I need to read -- the stuff above, the votes on Nobody Special, looking at voting patterns, figuring out why [J] is dead, etc., etc. -- but it's late and I want to sleep, and I also don't want to lose my train of thought because it took me hours to get it back for this game.

Hmm. Actually, rereading my post gave me a thought about doing reverse NK analysis, which could be more fruitful. Remind me to do this after my meeting tomorrow when my brain's fresher.

Mod: Please include a list of who is not voting in the vote counts. Thanks!

[Equinox]

Whoever thinks fat is town because he had a "slip" is dumb. He could be scum and could thought that. Or fake it. Or whatever. I myself thought we had to get all the scum since like 4 real life days ago, when I actually reread the opening post.

I have a question. You thought we had to get all the scum by the end of Day 1. Ergo, you misunderstood the setup. Why do you think it's unreasonable to attribute misunderstanding the setup as a town tell?

[Equinox]

Vote: pidgey

pidgey claims that clearing people based on "slips" is foolhardy because it can be faked or scum can misunderstand the setup, too; in the same breath, he gives an example of how he misunderstood the setup. This does not compute.

[Equinox]

Anyway equi, why do you say quilford is probably town because he says his "confirmed town"? Why is that too bold for scum? Too bold for scum is directing the town, leading all the lynches, etc. Not seeing what you say here.

Because screaming "I AM CONFIRMED TOWN" with self-meta attracts attention, whereas scum in this setup would be particularly nervous about attention.

Also, if Quilford is scum, he's basically jeopardized his chances of ever using self-meta in future games. While winning one game is important, one also needs to keep in mind all the other games. If Quilford only uses self-meta when he's town, his chances of winning games overall goes up because, by sheer probability, he'll draw town more often than not. If Quilford uses self-meta as scum in this game, he may win this game, but he won't win any other games where he tries to use self-meta.

I know that's a lot of WIFOM, but if Quilford's aware enough of his meta to reference it in his defense, he'll be aware of this.

Time to pick apart the Day 1 wagon. Separate post because this is going to take me a while.

[Equinox]

SleepyKrew, what is your read of Twistedspoon? What do you think of Twistedspoon using meta to defend Nobody Special toward the end of Day 1?

[Equinox]

If I find you on two myslynch wagons equinox then I'm seriously going to consider you D3

*stares at Twistedspoon*

[Equinox]

If I find you on two myslynch wagons equinox then I'm seriously going to consider you D3

*stares at Twistedspoon*

so you'd find a player who had a hand in lynching 2 townies not suspicious at all?

No, I'd want to find out what part they had in those two mislynches. Let me ask you something, Twistedspoon. Now that you've basically threatened me to be right or die, let's suppose we mislynch today, and I'm not on the wagon. I've deftly avoided the lynching wagon to join some other one. What would you think of me then?

Equi. Do you think I'm claiming scum because I say scum can missunderstand the setup too and then I say I missunderstood it?

Yes. The entirety of the tell is that scum are going to be more aware of the setup than town are because, in this setup, they have a handicap. You come in, talk of why scum can misunderstand the setup, using... yourself as an example.

Yeah, no.

pidgey is a bad wagon, she looks pretty fucking town to me

Use more words.

[Equinox]

"Bad logic"?

...okay.

[Equinox]

Hmm.

So you are basically saying that i went

"mmmm so i missunderstood the setup as scum, and these guys missunderstood it too and people say they are town, so i must say it is a null tell, because i, the scum, was confused too".

Missunderstanding something is a null tell. It can be faked. It can be a confusion as scum. It can be confusion as town. But whatever, we've been going 2 pages with this and i rather look for scum like fat.

This doesn't sound like a scum reaction.

Let me think a bit.

[Equinox]

It's more a matter of if you lynch town again then I'll review you again and not see you as town as I think you now.
Not sure I understand your question. If you don't lynch town again, I'm happy for now.

Okay, that's fair. Let me rephrase my question. Suppose we have a mislynch today, but I did not participate in the lynch. What would you think then?

[Equinox]

I wasn't voting him for his stance; I was voting him because I thought I saw him slipping. His reaction just now doesn't look like caught scum, though.

What do you think of his play aside from that? He looks reasonably good to me, I thought his first post looked fairly sincere and he seems to be trying to work things out.

Aside from the whole issue with the possibly-not-slip, he's looked sincere. Post 957 looks sincere, too, so... bleh? I don't know.

Unvote

[Equinox]

Null.
I didn't like it, because I was using meta against NS instead. I'll have to see if I simply suck at metaing (again) or if NS played against his meta this game.

Why ask me this?

Because I'm trying to figure out how you, me, and Twistedspoon disagreed on Nobody Special's meta and didn't come out with a fireworks display. I can understand people settling to agree to disagree when both sides have presented evidence and neither side wants to budge, but this was weird. From what I can remember, Twistedspoon didn't cite any specific games for his Nobody Special meta; like me, he just stated that "Nobody Special does X when he's town," and you didn't prod him for it.

[Equinox]

I need 6 people to tell me they're going to lynch me unless I methodically run down all 39 pages of this thread by Friday evening PST.

Seriously. I'm running in circles at this point, and it looks like I'm going to be useless until I actually sit down and reread this thread in light of flip.

[Equinox]

Prod dodge!

Sorry for the absence. The past few days have been insane, and now I'm slowly catching up on my Mafia games. I'm scheduling this game for when I come back later this evening; if I can't catch up in a reasonable time frame, I'll replace out.

[Equinox]

Yeah, don't ever let me get away with procrastinating. I'm a terrible procrastinator.

And I'd totally say the same thing as scum.

Okay, so I'm tempted to just ask people for summarized cases so I don't have to go back and read. ...actually, just give me a summary anyway so I don't think to myself "43 pages nnnggghhhh" and justify wandering off to MD.

Question of the day: Why should Equinox join your wagon of choice? Go.

[Equinox]

Don't make me read the thread.

It makes scary faces when I look at it.

You already expressed a scum read on Fruit Basket so I'm going to be lazy too.

Nope.

[Equinox]

Part of the reason I'm stalling is that I'm busy during the day but can't stay awake long enough during the night to actually do anything significant, hence my stating that I'd replace out if I wasn't able to contribute soon. I find that asking people to pressure me helps sometimes, which was why I did that.

[Equinox]

Hey.

Look.

It's a post.

Vote: SleepyKrew

I'm not joining the Amrun, Fruit Basket, or jerobbo wagons. You lot are town. I don't know about bvoigt and fatlikepig yet; as much as I'd like to examine them now, I'm barely awake at the moment and would really like to go back to sleep. I should be able to read up on them and do my own reading of the Nobody Special wagon like I promised a week or so ago when I get home tomorrow, since I have a short day and this is the only game I'm doing tomorrow. Kill me if I don't and stuff.

What I do know however is SleepyKrew is scummy as shit. Looking forward to that golden post in < 24 hours.

At this point, I agree with Twistedspoon that it's more prudent to look on the Nobody Special wagon for scum. Even if there's scum off-wagon, it's pretty much guaranteed that there's at least one on the wagon, whereas we don't have that guarantee looking off-wagon. If any of you read the Team Mafia run of White Flag Mafia, this is similar to LlamaFluff's reasoning right after we lynched DrippingGoofball-scum on Day 1; look for scum on the wagon because at least one was bound to have bussed her.

Fruit Basket, jerobbo, and SleepyKrew: Thoughts on Twistedspoon? Thoughts on his argument for Amrun-town? This question goes double if you've played with Amrun before.

To be honest, not really. In one of my recent newbie games, two players never spoke to each other, and one of them was town. Given how little bv's talked until recently, I don't think, from an objective POV, that it's all that suspect.

How would you describe bvoigt's interactions with you?

Okay, so you sort of retracted it, but in a way that's silly. Maybe they didn't notice. Maybe FB argued vigorously for you to be dead, but their partners overruled. Maybe they didn't react to it with instant death like you thought they would.

I'd be very surprised if Fruit Basket didn't notice. I made a point of separating the post where I FoSed them from everything else I posted before Day 1 ended to make sure everyone saw it. I don't think Fruit Basket would have been overruled; I'm confident in the identity of one of the heads, and that head hates getting into an argument with me whenever s/he thinks or knows I'm of opposite alignment. I'm sure s/he would have made a convincing case for killing me. Could s/he be WIFOMing me by leaving me alive, knowing I could change my read on this basis? Sure, I suppose, but there isn't a reason I can discern that justifies shooting [J] over me in that case.

Also, jerobbo isn't scum. His argument with you is textbook tunneling, and I'm fairly sure it's town tunneling because otherwise he's just setting himself up if he's wrong (and I think he's wrong). His case is vague and depends on people being able to match thought patterns with him, which isn't a case scum like to build because it's not a persuasive case; it's more a case designed to find town, even if the objective is to lynch someone else. Also, scum need to be convincing, and they need to look good when they build cases. jerobbo doesn't fit that profile.

Spoiler:

Maybe it's because the level of play for my last White Flag was so very high.

LOL

Hey, now. I take exception to this. Just because a bunch of townies decided it would be fun times to eat each other alive doesn't mean the level of play wasn't comparatively high. (Besides, the reason we lost was because I was a dumbass, not because town played poorly.)

[Equinox]

SleepyKrew needs to die.

I'm serious.

[Equinox]

Flash wagon get!

[Equinox]

Answer my earlier questions, Ekwee.

Link me to 3 posts that make SleepyKrew scum.
Link me to 3 day 1 posts that make Amrun town.
Link me to 3 posts by pidgey you find interesting.

*raises eyebrows*

Okay. Here's why SleepyKrew is scum. I'd be lying if I said I wasn't being at least a bit facetious with this answer, but I really do think he's scum. His push for Amrun so far has been scummy; he's using his tunneling to avoid saying anything useful in the thread, and the other reads he's mentioned so far today are out of left field. I think Twistedspoon has a point when he said that SleepyKrew was pulling names out of a hat for reads.

I'll answer your question about Amrun when I get on my desktop computer, since that's where my Day 1 notes are and I can't really dig too deep right now for reasons mentioned below.

I am not answering your third question because that's a useless question. I don't care if pidgey's posts are "interesting," only how his posts indicate his alignment and what his reads are. Right now, my opinion is that pidgey is town. What were you hoping to get out of this question?

You can answer this after I've posted about Amrun, but why did you want

three

posts, specifically? Generally, people ask for posts that show X and Y are Z as opposed to an arbitrary number.

Where's that golden post you promised within 24 hours back in #1123?

I run on Valve time!

No, seriously, what happened was I didn't get to this thread on Tuesday due to me taking care of school issues longer than I'd anticipated, and I decided to go to sleep early rather than stay up for another night. The golden post is coming before the end of the Day, but I have other priorities right now. I'm not failing my courses or any projects for a Mafia game.

[Equinox]

I care because I'm trying to figure out if it's a real question or not. Whenever I ask someone for something like that, for instance, I wouldn't specify how many posts I want because the amount the person comes up with is as valuable a piece of information as the case itself. When you asked me that question, I thought it odd that you would deliberately deny yourself that information. Furthermore, you asking for only 3 posts out of 50+ posts struck me as strange; considering how strong I'm claiming my read of her is, you should be asking for more than three.

[Equinox]

Whoops. I missed your question in the spoiler tag. I'll answer later when I'm actually able.

Of course you can explain why ScreamingHawk is town in one post; he fucking slipped it. To try to apply that to any other reads is like trying to force a square peg through a round hole, and to suggest that strong reads should only come from a few posts as opposed to more posts over time is silly and a fast way to being wrong. My read of Amrun was over several posts, if I hadn't made that clear in some wall post or other I'm not going to look up.

I don't know what other information you need. That's for you to decide. What I do know is the way you asked for the information was self-limiting, and that's what concerns me.

[Equinox]

I AM FREE

Temporarily, as the only thing standing in my way to weekend freedom now is a couple of paragraphs about behavior modification, but I can do that after I play Mafia. You guys have been patient for long enough.

I'm posting this here because I know I'll be tempted to start playing Oblivion, and, well, that's one surefire way to me to never come back. YOU GUYS WILL KEEP ME RESPONSIBLE.

[Equinox]

I find it very odd that you're persuaded to wagon a townread of yours due to a case made my equinox which doesn't exist (due to a broken link)

Link isn't broken; that was deliberate.

pidgey/jerrobo
FLP/Bvoigt
Amrun

What do you think of jerobbo's interactions with Amrun?

My answer regarding a second choice will be coming later, since I'm doing the Analysis of Doom tonight anyway.

I'd still much prefer a Quil lynch though. Obviously not keeping up with the game. Admitting it. Mentions replacing out then when people take pressure off, says he won't do it. How does mentioning replacing out get you off the hook? Have your opinions changed (TS, pidgy)?

Let's play Devil's Advocate: Equinox has been doing essentially the same things. I've barely caught up in the game; if you consider that I've promised certain things in the thread with a deadline and have yet to deliver, I'm actually behind. I've admitted several times to being behind. I talk about replacing out when I feel I can't keep up, and I haven't. I talk about people lynching me for not contributing, yet I jump in to defend myself when people start accusing me of avoiding contribution. How does Equinox differ from Quilford?

I realize that I'm not an actual viable wagon, but I'm interested in hearing why you're looking at Quilford in particular for the reasons you've stated.

If you're going to call someone out on lurking, FUCKING CHECK TO SEE IF THEYRE AVOIDING THE GAME OR INACTIVE SITEWIDE
ftr I had declared V/LA until Sunday and was sick Monday. And you'll notice my activity was minimal SITEWIDE during that time.

I called you out for minimal contribution, as well, SleepyKrew.

[Equinox]

Ugh. I fell asleep in the middle of reading Amrun, so the big analysis will have to wait until this afternoon when I get home. Don't hammer anyone in the meantime, please.

For the first post, I'm going to link you to several: post 65, post 74, post 148, post 154, and post 273. She genuinely believed in her read of Cross_Pollination, and her case doesn't have that contrived feel of scum weaseling their way into getting the lynch they want; she stuck to her original reasoning that Cross_Pollination's early posting was scummy despite people expressing clear disagreement with it. Her statement that she doesn't understand how people can have town reads of Cross_Pollination felt genuine, as well.

Amrun's change in read of bvoigt in post 297 and subsequent explanation in post 299 are townish. This is also where I thought Amrun was matching thought patterns with me, since she's hunting town in the same manner I am; I've seen scum fake this kind of read before, and this isn't it.

Post 697 feels like genuine rage, as well. It's true that Amrun wasn't defending Nobody Special; she was trying to get a counterwagon run up on Cross_Pollination. In fact, that's something that should have occurred on Day 1 but didn't for whatever reason. Furthermore, this line:

And if I were defending NS, not only would you KNOW, it would not be a scumtell.

...is true.

[Equinox]

EBWOP: For post 697, the part where "if Amrun had actually defended Nobody Special, it would be obvious" is true. Whether or not that's a tell is up in the air.

[Equinox]

But I do and it's plainly obvious to me, so I guess we'll just disagree.

[Equinox]

If railing over and over and over that there should be a wagon on Cross_Pollination, that Cross_Pollination is scum, that Cross_Pollination is scum for X reason, that it makes no sense for people to read Cross_Pollination as anything higher than null, that the Nobody Special wagon is nothing special (harhar), and that there should be a counterwagon on Cross_Pollination isn't "plainly obvious" or "trying to get a counterwagon," I DON'T KNOW WHAT IS.

[Equinox]

Thank you for admitting that one of your reasons is wrong already Equi.

Not the point. What I was driving at was that you found it suspicious that Amrun called you out for poor activity when you were V/LA, yet you didn't call me out for doing the same thing she did.

then where is it and how does it show a case on SK?

I can talk specifics when I get back, but his posts on that page just rang to me as scummy, particularly the way he slapped together his proposed scum team of {Amrun, bvoigt, Twistedspoon}.

[Equinox]

What do you think of my defense of Amrun, SleepyKrew?

[Equinox]

Okay, kids: Amrun, pidgey, Quilford, ScreamingHawk, and Twistedspoon are town as fuck and should never be lynched. Ever. That's half the game right there, so if you guys would join up and do a voting bloc tomorrow, that'd be super cool and winsome.

I don't agree with Fruit Basket's reasoning about the mod posts, since I think Morthas would have said that regardless; it was the exact line of thinking I ran into when I modded my first game and someone asked for a deadline extension. However, I think bvoigt's posts on page 54, especially this line:

[J] suspected me: I was planning to vote [J] on Day 2, IIRC. So if I was scum, she was my main mislynch target, and I would not have killed her. I know this is WIFOM, but it makes perfect sense from my eyes.

...sounds really genuine. bvoigt can join the group I mentioned above, too, most likely.

Flash wagon go!

Vote: fatlikepig

[Equinox]

Morthas tends to log in at around morning or early morning PST. I'll be able to check in and out up until around 12 AM PST -- or later, depending on how long the caffeine sticks -- but if I see no chance of an alternate lynch occurring, I'll hammer bvoigt.

[Equinox]

Apparently, bvoigt was hammered by Quilford on the last page. Now I feel like a dumbass.

Unvote, Vote: bvoigt

Just in case it wasn't, since now I'm going to bed.

[Equinox]

Vote: SleepyKrew

[Equinox]

So why are you all voting SK?

Here. Not a big shiny case, but it's basically what has already been stated by pidgey: SleepyKrew's reads on Day 2 were "slapped together," and I got the impression he was just phoning in his play and coasting. Granted, town does that, too, but he's also been inconsistent; there's the part where he didn't pressure Twistedspoon further for his meta of Nobody Special, which I would have expected town to do when there's a disagreement of the level the two of them had.

So TS was supremely confident that Amrun was Town. He's either horribly wrong or I am. Hmm.

You're wrong. Amrun's town. Let's be friends.

I'm going to be replaced by a hydra of myself and kuribo, if that's all right, Morthas.

We meet again, kuribo.

[Equinox]

I have a turkey plushie on my desk.

In other news, I'm bored and it's time to hammer.

Unvote, Vote: SleepyKrew