Open 347: White Flag Mafia (Game Over)
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Actually, never mind. Can we get a wagon started in this direction, please?
Unvote, Vote: SleepyKrew
In post 49, SleepyKrew wrote:Can someone compare Equinoxtown vs. Equiscum for me? Please?
You can do it yourself. My wiki has all of my games.-
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That game still haunts me in my dreams sometimes.
The shame of my mafiascum.net career, really.
Anyway, not seeing what bvoigt and kondi2424 are seeing in Cross_Pollination, but I'll probably get the answer to that the next time the bees come to visit. Similarly, I'm not seeing what you're seeing in SleepyKrew, Amrun, so help me out?-
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In post 103, Quilford wrote:Given that kondi is scum I find Equinox's jump off the wagon at L-1 with no reasoning suspicious. Care to explain?
No.-
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Wall incoming.
In post 86, Cross_Pollination wrote:My previous mafia experience is just games on another forum I visit.
And I found his posts suspicious.
Out of curiosity, how long were the Day phases at your other forum?
Okay, so you found Nobody Special's posts suspicious. Which ones? Why were they suspicious? I'll reiterate that others were exhibiting similarly troll-like behavior at that point as well; Equinox's, fatlikepig's, Fruit Basket's, kondi2424's, and Quilford's posts were arguably similar, so why are they different?
In post 101, Nobody Special wrote:When you children stop playing around, and the real game begins, let me know.
This game doesn't start on page 85, for the record. I may be grilling Cross_Pollination, but I don't like where you've gone either. Any thoughts on anyone besides Fruit Basket? Do you think Fruit Basket's "cases are scummy" comment is influenced by alignment?
In post 106, fatlikepig wrote:Also, policy lynching Kondi is probably a bad idea since we're at mylo tomorrow if he's town.
Probably town.
Amrun is probably town, too. I'm feeling better about SleepyKrew, though there's still a question I want to ask:
SleepyKrew, why did it take you so long to vote me for dodging your questions?
I think I know who one head of Fruit Basket is, and that makes me worried about their constant pushing for Nobody Special's wagon. You say Cross_Pollination was "remarkably honest" about not having any scum reads, which is townish. Okay, that makes sense. What do you think of Cross_Pollination singling out Nobody Special when there were other people posting similar fluff in the thread? Who's scum with Nobody Special?
In post 180, SleepyKrew wrote:And Amrun is acting all weird.
How? Amrun's looking like Amrun to me.
In post 194, fatlikepig wrote:In post 192, ScreamingHawk wrote:Did I? My bad. I had pig in mind for a vote for a while. Must never have gone through with it
This post. I don't like it.
Why didn't you say anything about someone you thought was scummy? What made you change your mind on voting?
Interested in this, too, ScreamingHawk.-
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Okay, so trying to get an understanding of Nobody Special's perspective of this game in order to determine his alignment is a soft question? That's awesome.
In post 247, Fruit Basket wrote:How does maybe knowing who I am affect my push on NS? If anything I think it should make youmoreconfident I'm right, my history of reading him is actually really good. Or maybe you have the wrong girl teehee.
No, it makes me paranoid.
You keep saying how Nobody Special's second, third, and fifth posts are scummy. Disregard my opinion of Nobody Special; I want to know where you're coming from. Case, go.-
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That's my line. You're voting for things that aren't tells, and you're not talking about anything substantial. You have a habit of doing the latter anyway, but you've been voting for the weirdest reasons. At least I was able to get a piece of your thought process when you posted your reads in In the Court of the Gods, even though I thought your reads were weird; here, you're deliberately being obtuse, like you don't want to reveal too much of what's on your mind.
For you, that's a scum tell.-
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The fact that this wagon is STALLING should be a sign.
It should be a call to arms.
Nobody Special is refusing to say anything because he doesn't want to implicate his buddies and lose on Day 2.
That's too bad, though, because SleepyKrew's probably it.
Mod: Prod Cross_Pollination and DonJosh, please.-
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I wait with bated breath, DonJosh.
SleepyKrew, you really, honestly, have never had a time when you thought you were going to do something, reconsidered, and then forgot you reconsidered and thought you did it after all?
fatlikepig and trekker, what's the scum motivation for the other to not answer your question? Seriously.
I'll take a look at Nobody Special's meta later today. Nobody Special, those are reads, but the reasons you've stated for them have been lackluster. They're not even tells. So aAre you going to expound further? What do you think of everyone else in the game?-
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Urgh. I shouldn't be here, but looking at my books makes me depressed. I'll just spam all over this site to make the world all better.
In post 493, DonJosh wrote:In post 490, Fruit Basket wrote:
DonJosh's catch up is underwhelming. What do you think of the NS wagon? No opinion at all?
Its crap. All votes off, pl0x. More votes on trekker.
What votes do you not like on the Nobody Special wagon? What's your opinion of Nobody Special? You can't call a wagon crap without backing up your stuff.
In post 511, Fruit Basket wrote:ScreamingHawk is literally confirmed town now.
Help me out here. Why does this logic not apply to SleepyKrew?
In post 513, trekker wrote:I'm a vanilla townie/
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I don't know, Quilford. The way Nobody Special deftly avoids making any connections to people by never posting any useful reads looks like his scum play to me.
What's curious to me is why Amrun of all people didn't recognize the tell Fruit Basket was going for. You cleared someone in the other White Flag Mafia for forgetting the nature of the game setup; what makes ScreamingHawk's post different?-
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ScreamingHawk, it was 3 AM on Friday when I said it the first time. I had class and a quiz at 9 AM. I was also on record saying I'd be semi-V/LA until Friday evening for exams. If you thought I was doing any substantial reading of a 20+ page thread at those times, you're fucking insane.
I woke up this morning to calls for a hammer when I very clearly said I didn't want a hammer until I had the chance to do the reading. If you can't see WHY I might not want that, then you're fucking thick on top of that.
Inevitable question of "Y U NO READ NOW" is going to be answered with, "I have a pretty big and painful headache, so shut up until it goes away." Please and thank you.-
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We can lynch him after we kill Nobody Special. The thought I'm running with right now is that there's a good chance of DonJosh (or Cross_Pollination, actually, now that I think about it) being Nobody Special's buddy; Nobody Special accused me of being lurker scum when I've been fairly active in this game while ignoring the players who have truly been lurking.
Hmm. I was going to say this might be the reason why we don't have a counterwagon and that was what I wanted to investigate with a full thread reread, but looking at this vote count, I see that... I don't know. I'm pretty sure I'm right about Nobody Special, but that vote count's weird.
Okay, I'll shut up until I know what I'm talking about. Definitely reading today, so please hold me to this.-
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Reread complete.
Vote: Nobody Special
I have strong town reads on Amrun, Fruit Basket, and ScreamingHawk. I have weaker town reads on bvoigt and fatlikepig. I want to put Quilford in that category as well, but there's something I need him to clarify. I don't have a read of kondi2424, which is kind of disturbing, but I'm willing to wait for a replacement. trekker I'm not sure about at this point; earlier, he was a town read, but his shenanigans before he replaced out were bad, particularly his refusal to respond to fatlikepig when fatlikepig had a point about trekker's behavior. Call me a fence-sitter, but I don't know what to think of trekker at the moment; my town read pre-shenanigans was pretty strong, and I'm not comfortable just throwing that out the window for a bout of trolling. I might reread him in isolation when my head isn't so warped. DonJosh and SleepyKrew are good candidates for Nobody Special's partners,especiallySleepyKrew.
This leaves Twistedspoon. Cross_Pollination not answering questions is scummy, but I got the impression while reading through the thread that he wasn't actually reading the thread, despite saying at some point that he caught up in the thread. His post where he replaced out supports my belief here. I'm hoping to hear from Twistedspoon soon.
All right. Explanations for the above available on request. Otherwise, I'm going to sit back and count my sheep.
Amrun, what's your experience with Nobody Special?
Quilford, you seem to believe that kondi2424 isn't playing to his town meta; why did you have kondi2424 as a "slight lean town" read earlier? What changed between posts 243 and 525?-
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I have a scum read of SleepyKrew. I don't like how he agreed with trekker and then turned around and called trekker scum; if you agree with someone's thought processes, then it makes better sense psychologically to believe them to be town like you are. This is basically the contrapositive of Amrun's pattern-matching town tell. There's also this:
In post 449, Nobody Special wrote:IF all three scum are on my wagon, I would say they are: FruitBasket, Screaming Hawk, and Sleepy.
Sleepy is my least compelling read.
This post sounded really forced. Nobody Special also went through the trouble of asking SleepyKrew to support his meta, which should have implied that he thought SleepyKrew was town, except that Nobody Special turns around and does this when asked to give reads. It's very weird.
This suggests he's avoiding a real lurker. I know I've coasted for a bit due to exams and replacing into a large-paged game, but I was far from lurking; if Nobody Special thought I was lurking at my activity level, then the absence of Cross_Pollination or DonJosh should have been that much more striking. In fact, it probably was, which may be why he ignored Quilford shouting for a DonJosh counterwagon and Amrun shouting for a Cross_Pollination counterwagon. I'm more inclined toward it being DonJosh because DonJosh's voting behavior was outright odd, and I had no idea what was going through his mind for each of them.-
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In post 596, Twistedspoon wrote:if you want a quick answer as to why I demanded that slot, it's because
1) after a brief skim of the first 7 or so pages I felt he was difficult to read and would like to know his alignment myself so that I wouldn't need to work it out
Did you like the answer?-
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EBWOP:
In post 597, Equinox wrote:This is basically thecontrapositiveinverseof Amrun's pattern-matching town tell.
Clearly it is bedtime.-
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I fucking turned off my alarm in my sleep again, so in the interest of time I'm not going to bother with walls with this post. I'll come back later. In the meantime, have some stream of consciousness.
In post 612, Nobody Special wrote:My apparent 'ignoring' of c_p and DJ for lurking over Equi is quite simple. I know her; I don't know them as well. They ping my radar less than she does. It's like confirmation bias, only not quite.
They ping your radar, but you somehow missed me going V/LA?
Welcome, Twistedspoon. Damn, what are you, some kind of IC?
In post 623, Twistedspoon wrote:would certainly not want in this setup. Surely you can see that. It's not a great scum tactic to make enemies and if you have to you should at least provide a reason or two as to why a person is scummy or not a scum.
If you can show my why a scum NS would needlessly give himself 2 or 3 players who want his blood and his lynch then I'd happily vote him as he has done precious little else to convince me that he's town
The problem with those reads is that Nobody Special apparently made them for things that weren't tells. He called Fruit Basket scum for this and maybe also this, and then he called ScreamingHawk scum for this. None of those three things have any relevance to alignment. Furthermore, post 449 that you cited is far from bold. Two of his top suspects are there, and he provides no comments on the people on his wagon or how his wagon formed beyond a quip and forced "IF all three scum are on my wagon." SleepyKrew's been tacked on.
Welcome, pidgey! kondi2424 could be town, actually. Will dive later.
Welcome, [J]! omg stream of posts. Oh, yeah, this reminds me.
In post 49, SleepyKrew wrote:Can someone compare Equinoxtown vs. Equiscum for me? Please?
Fruit Basket never came back with the meta, and you didn't follow up on this. Why?
ScreamingHawk and SleepyKrew, you are aware that anyone who places a vote on Nobody Special at this pointlynches him, right? It's reasonable for them to not vote him while others are catching up. Oh, hi, Twistedspoon.
Quilford using appeal to self-meta... *twitch*
↑ Twistedspoon wrote:I'm not lynching NS yet.
1) we haven't heard from DJ's rep
2) his uncaring play is similar to his town play
3) I still find some of his moves too bold for D1 scum
Since you seem to disagree, what do you think of the people who so far used meta to argue for Nobody Special-scum (i.e., Equinox and SleepyKrew)?
[J] is probably town.
who what when where why
In post 674, J wrote:Still don't get the SH town look besides how one post could come across as sincere. Equi, could you go into more detail as to why you like SH this game if you still feel the same?
The post where ScreamingHawk talked about why he thought he voted fatlikepig when he didn't sounded sincere, and it didn't have that feel of someone scrambling to explain a mistake the way scum would in that situation. Furthermore, he town-slipped in a way I felt was genuine. Oh, Fruit Basket beat me to it.
Hmm. [J] forgot the setup, too. I think the town slip was mentioned in-thread before this already, so it's less of a town tell now, but I have a town read on [J] at this point anyway so whatever.
Eh, if Nobody Special flips scum, Twistedspoon is definitely town. If the other way around happens, the apocalypse is coming.-
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All unlabeled quotes are from post 614.
Twistedspoon wrote:This should have been discussed at the start of the game, the results and sharing of knowledge being both another weapon avaliable for every townie to use when judging players, and the discussion also has the beautiful effect of unnerving the huddling mafiosi cauding a fine compress of pressure, which when executed correctly, has the tantalising effect of causing all sorts of irrational play from the mafia as they try to dodge the mould they believe the town is hunting for.
Your avatar needs a top hat and a monocle.
I think White Flag works better when the setup isn't discussed. While it's nice to catch scum, it's far more important and effective to catch town; the fact that this is only a subtle change to town's win condition means it's fairly easy to find other townies. Furthermore, too much discussion of the setup leads to scum knowing how to game it to their advantage. It's better to let them be nervous than to teach them how to turn the chessboard around.
Twistedspoon wrote:Spoiler: Equinox
Good God, do you know how to buddy people and stroke their egos? Is there a reason you're buttering me up here?
Hmm. I'm uneasy about Twistedspoon here. He talks about people and concludes with a trekker vote... okay. After reading his commentary on Cross_Pollination, I expected some talk about the people who were pushing Cross_Pollination and the people who talked about Cross_Pollination being scummy but didn't vote (such as yours truly). Nothing substantial. Except a vote on trekker, which is apparently a policy vote. I'm also having a lot of difficulty reading his tone because he appears to be roleplaying some sort of gentleman, which doesn't soothe my feelings.
I agree with SleepyKrew that pidgey's reads in his post 625 were like fence-sitting, but I'm comfortable with pidgey being town for whatever it was I caught him doing earlier this morning.
Okay. So you know where them laser beams go if Nobody Special flips scum. If Nobody Special flips town, then... uhh. I don't know, I suck?
EBWOPreview: Oh, actually, [J] just poked at me for this, so let's go ahead and have fun here.
In post 722, J wrote:Equi, I'd like to pick your brain on who you are looking at based on the flips of NS in both scenarios. (SK and FB can answer this too please)
TS/Equi/FLP, if you had to choose one of Amrun/SH/SK to go next, who and why? If it was between Bvoigt/FB then who?
If Nobody Special flips scum, I'm killing SleepyKrew straight up. Please refer to this and this. If Nobody Special flips town, I'm probably going after Twistedspoon because the posts where he kept insisting Nobody Special was town based on meta without pressuring the people who used meta to argue for Nobody Special's lynch are scummy in this instance; I'll also have to go back and look at Fruit Basket for pushing the wagon through like a bull stampedes through Pamplona, and it was something I was uneasy about earlier given a guess at one of Fruit Basket's heads.
I'm not voting Amrun or ScreamingHawk. I'm fairly certain they're town: Amrun for matching a lot of my thought patterns when I was rereading the thread, and ScreamingHawk for asking for a claim when this setup is pure vanilla. I do think town are more likely to forget the nature of a setup; scum would be painfully aware of their handicap and would, by association, be aware the setup is vanilla.-
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In post 729, J wrote:Equi, that's something I am going to have to disagree with you on (TSscum possibility) he is possibly one of, if not the most, biggest town-read I have at the current time. The last time I played with him I had the exact same train of thought against him you are having now that his attitude makes you wary and things he is pushing/not pushing is a bit odd but it is coming from a town-intent I see. I do not see the scum intent behind his actions thus far. Plus the point you are making that if NS does flip town, to go after TS is a bit meh. He actually has done that before. I was pushing Jeraco in a game and he said that Jeraco was town for a while and that he was obvtown but I still tried his lynch, Jeraco flipped scum that game. =P
I also wanna say there was something with a person like Hoplip/Ghostlin but my memory is a bit foggy.
I'm also gonna re-look into SK connection to NS since you brought it up because I don't remember noting as such and actually thinking opposite for SK. I think because of there interactions, if one is scum the other cannot be.
Set-up mis-falter is a bit of a WIFOM reason to believe that town would be more likely to slip than scum.
Amrun, I'm just not getting really but maybe he's just weird for me to read.
Lack of scum-picks for me is dis-heartening. The only one I am really curious to look into more is Bvoigt, so what is your opinion on him Equi?
We'll see when Twistedspoon gets back to me about the meta thing. In the game you played with him, did Twistedspoon have the same buddying kind of attitude? That's the thing that bothers me more than anything else.
Yeah, setup falters are WIFOM, but I've seen it work often enough that I put my faith in it. There are certain things that scum don't do because they're not in the mindset to do them unless they have extensive experience; ScreamingHawk doesn't fall into the "experienced scum" category, I don't think.
I have a slight town read of bvoigt at the moment for... I have no idea what. It's not in my notes. Bleh. I can look into it if the world ends or something, but otherwise I don't think he's scum with Nobody Special.-
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In post 737, Fruit Basket wrote:anyway Equinox TS paranoia looks legit and is a strong town tell based on what I know of her meta (which may range from an extensive knowledge to not very much at all)
FoS: Fruit Basket-
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Now for the rest of you.
Unfortunately, the world is going to end tonight, but that's not stopping me from doing what I can to stop the zombie hordes!
Quilford, the only sign I'll take for confirmed town is the red. *grin* But okay. In any case, good luck.
SleepyKrew wrote:Stuff Amrun has said about the NSwagon is what makes her defscum. She flips from totally against it to saying she'll hammer if necessary and claiming she never attacked the wagon.
Read the thread, boy.
Twistedspoon wrote:having been NS's scumbuddy in the past i think i know his meta thankyou
His meta is similar as town or scum. Only difference is (iirc) he lurks even more and is even more reluctant to give names or reasons as scum
I asked you what you thought of the people who disagreed with you, not why you disagreed. Try again. What do you think of Equinox and SleepyKrew using Nobody Special's meta to argue for his lynch?
Twistedspoon wrote:what?
How am I supposed to convince them that their previous expereince with NS was wrong? HOW?
Well, you could've tried, but right now my concern is why you're not more worried. Misuse of meta is a fairly good scum tell, yet you thought this was a meredisagreement? You're not worried about how I or SleepyKrew talked about Nobody Special? For God's sakes, I didn't even use any links! For all you knew, I was talking out of my ass.
Twistedspoon wrote:Can I answer this? I'm asking because it isn't addressed to me and you'll only have my word for the comments that I'd make about my own playstyle here.
Well, if you want to answer, go for it. Though from you I'll need links.
Twistedspoon wrote:@eqinox: am I not correct in my memory of you modding an open game I was in?
Yes. But you commented on my skill as a player, not as a moderator, and I've never played with you before. That makes me paranoid.
[J] wrote:Can you get back to me when you read up a bit on Bvoigt? Tell me why you don't think he is scum with NS.
Gut feeling at the time given bvoigt's behavior. I can go back if need be, but now I don't think Nobody Special's flipping scum.-
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