Mini 380: Artifacts- Game over

[Coron]

That's vaguely correct.

[Nightfall]

As time goes on I am starting to see this as more of a town vs town arguement that started over Coron's ussual ...um... agressive.. playstyle.

[Norinel]

CrashTextDummie replaces conflux. Luna

and perfect

are still up for replacement. Everyone else seems to be here.

edit: Kelly Chen replaces perfect62834

Vote Count:

Nai- 2 (Coron, Jules)
Jules- 2 (CrashTextDummie, Stewie)
Coron- 2 (Nai, lunalovegood)
CrashTextDummie- 1 (Nightfall)
lunalovegood- 1 (HackerHuck)

Not voting (3): GreenLiquid, Kelly Chen, Zindaras

6 to lynch

[Zindaras]

Replacements! Yay!

I'm looking forward to hearing CTD's and Kelly's opinions. Kelly's, especially.

[Jules]

My case on him has been built on the fact that he is overconfident, and his building a case off of nothing is part of that.

It's worth noting that, when Coron was defending Jules before, Jules is defending him now.

I'm not defending him. I'm pointing out that you accuse coron of building his case against you out of absolutely nothing when you did the same yourself

[Kelly Chen]

Hey all.

I have not been following very closely but I will get on it yeah?

FOS: Zindaras

[Zindaras]

Obviously I'm most interested in your opinions, since I find the guy you've replaced scummy.

[Kelly Chen]

Yeah I know how you work. My guy has like two posts.

[Nai]

My case on him has been built on the fact that he is overconfident, and his building a case off of nothing is part of that.

It's worth noting that, when Coron was defending Jules before, Jules is defending him now.

I'm not defending him. I'm pointing out that you accuse coron of building his case against you out of absolutely nothing when you did the same yourself

You seem to be defending him. I say that because you are attacking my argument which is attacking him. It further seems like defense because he defended you a few pages ago, and it seems like scum returning the favor. Considering the way you've been playing, Jules, up to this point, I'd not hesitate to put my vote on you.

However, I still find Coron to be scummy beyond belief. It may be correct that this is town (me) vs. town, but it doesn't seem like it.

[Stewie]

Stewie I'm trying to figure out how the premise of overreacting or overdefensiveness being scummy can be seen as "overreacting" please enlighten me.

There are different degrees of overreacting, depending on how much you blow the facts out of proportion. Nai's 'overreactions' where mild, if overreactions at all. Your interpretation of these 'overreactions' were overreactions in that you started with nearly nothing (a mild 'overreaction' by Nai) and blew it out of proportion (to "Nai is most certainly scum," to be exact - paraphrased).

You don't think these are scum tells? You think I should just throw these scum tells out the window? I don't really understand.

Yes, I think they are scum tells (ie: overreacting is a scum tell) but not to the degree in which Nai was 'overreacting.'

[Kelly Chen]

I'm still (re)reading and sorting out the more minor players here. If I had to vote Nai vs. Coron I'd vote Coron, just because I have a (weird but) town impression from Nai and Coron doesn't seem to.

But these two seem to be the most active players. Just that makes me reluctant to want to lynch either today.

I don't know what I think yet. More soon.

[Coron]

oh yes actually I remember something I had seen in a reread.
In Nai's fourth post this appears:

My main argument is that he's far too sure of himself, and I really don't see, in any way, how he can be like that. I mean, I can see how it would be a joke to begin with that he calls me and Nightfall scum buddies (me included ONLY because Nightfall voted for me), but he hasn't let it go.

That suggests to me that he has some sort of outside information here.

And there's no way he would have given an item so broken as to say "You have a one-shot chance to find a scum and all his buddies", or any such thing. To hold onto a belief is playing like Fritzler, and I find that Fritz is often wrong. So...

Bolding mine.
So, why would she think I have outside information? Guilty concience much?
Also, I don't see why it would be out of the question for me to have been cop/tracker/whatever, and trying to get reactions from people in conjunction with my result. Even without it I don't see how it's at all out of the question for me to be trying to get reactions.
Basically the idea is this: I threw out a completely oddball theory, acted sure of myself and saw how people reacted. Nai reacted EXACTLY like RUH ROH THIS GUY KNOWS SOMETHING BETTER GET RID OF HIM.
Of course you're free to have your own opinions on this, but yeah.

[Kelly Chen]

What I find strange in that quote is the "I find that Fritz is often wrong" part with the implication left out. What do we conclude from Fritz often being wrong then? That Coron is

probably

not right about Nai's scum partner? You'd think Nai could make a stronger statement than this.

[Nightfall]

(my opinion)

Basically the idea is this: I threw out a completely oddball theory, acted sure of myself and saw how people reacted. Nai reacted EXACTLY like RUH ROH THIS GUY KNOWS SOMETHING BETTER GET RID OF HIM.

Or it could be a pro town player who is a little annoyed at being labeled as scum for nothing at all by someone who seems so confident in what he is saying. And when someone apears confident enough to voice his opinions in that way, others may get convinced he is right.

Therefore the town player could be just interested in shuting you up or setting you streight so a mistake is not made by the rest of the town.

(This post is hypothetical of course, and comes from a distaste in the Coron/pooky/Fritz/Thesp playstile)

[Coron]

[sarcasm]Alright! Why don't we play mafia this way? LET'S ALL BE FRIENDS AND NOT ACCUSE ANYONE OF BEING SCUM AND SIT HERE AND STAGNATE FOR 3 MONTHS! Once all that is done the mod will put a 5 day deadline down and productivity will be up 600% for that but we'll still only get about 30 posts in that time and end up lynching someone mostly randomly. I love that style of play man. I wish we had more of that around here.[/sarcasm]

[Nightfall]

I never said that we shouldnt accuse people, I just implied that we should have something to base our acusations on. You started accusing Nai and myself for that mater in your very first post. Which was infact only the fourth post of the game.

[Coron]

Well, of course. I did have something to base my reasoning off of, at that point in the game THERE WAS NOTHING BETTER TO BASE MY VOTE OFF OF. Completely random off the wall speculation.

People always are telling me to explain my vote, so I did, I walked you through my thought process.

[HackerHuck]

Nai has said on more than one occaision that Coron is implying that Coron has inside information about Nai. I haven't really seen any indication of that, so it does make me a bit suspicious of Nai for that very reason. It seems like Nai is really stretching things to get Coron lynched. I've got unpleasant feelings about both of them, but I will agree with Kelly that I don't think either would be a good lynch today.

I still haven't seen anything from anyone that would cause me to change my vote yet.

Obviously I would like to hear from CrashTextDummie and whomever ends up replacing Luna.

[ShadowLurker]

/in to replace

[Stewie]

oh yes actually I remember something I had seen in a reread.
In Nai's fourth post this appears:

My main argument is that he's far too sure of himself, and I really don't see, in any way, how he can be like that. I mean, I can see how it would be a joke to begin with that he calls me and Nightfall scum buddies (me included ONLY because Nightfall voted for me), but he hasn't let it go.

That suggests to me that he has some sort of outside information here.

And there's no way he would have given an item so broken as to say "You have a one-shot chance to find a scum and all his buddies", or any such thing. To hold onto a belief is playing like Fritzler, and I find that Fritz is often wrong. So...

Bolding mine.
So, why would she think I have outside information? Guilty concience much?
Also, I don't see why it would be out of the question for me to have been cop/tracker/whatever, and trying to get reactions from people in conjunction with my result. Even without it I don't see how it's at all out of the question for me to be trying to get reactions.
Basically the idea is this: I threw out a completely oddball theory, acted sure of myself and saw how people reacted. Nai reacted EXACTLY like RUH ROH THIS GUY KNOWS SOMETHING BETTER GET RID OF HIM.
Of course you're free to have your own opinions on this, but yeah.

A few notes:
1. I find it perfectly reasonable to assume that you have some sort of information. If, for no apparent reason, you are sure Nai is scum, then it follows that you have some extra information (either that or you are nuts ). Cop sounds unlikely because, as Nai explained in the very same post you quoted, you didn't just say that Nai was scum, but that Nightfall was scum with him. Furthermore, given that being so confident with no apparent reason, and that it follows that you have extra information, it would not be a smart thing for a cop/tracker/whatever to let the scum know, because scum like to get rid of anyone with any extra information, other than themselves.

Ok, I guess it was one big point.

[Norinel]

ShadowLurker replaces lunalovegood, and we should be back to full strength.

[Nai]

The only reason I say he has more information is that he acts as if he has some sort of irrefutable knowledge that I am scum. That's how he's been playing the entire game, and there's an issue with that if he doesn't have the knowledge. For all I know (since this isn't an open set-up), he could be a paranoid/crazy cop that got a wrong answer. Also for all I know, he could be scum trying to get a townie lynched and playing like that. But it LOOKED like he has outside info. Lately, it looks like he's just trying to shore up a bad argument, but it started as if he was a bad cop role/scum going too hard at it.

Well, of course. I did have something to base my reasoning off of, at that point in the game THERE WAS NOTHING BETTER TO BASE MY VOTE OFF OF. Completely random off the wall speculation.

People always are telling me to explain my vote, so I did, I walked you through my thought process.

Let me paraphrase: "I based my reasoning on a random vote." That's pretty much what that seems to be saying. It also seems to be saying that on page 9, that's the reason you still have your vote on me.

[Coron]

oh yes actually I remember something I had seen in a reread.
In Nai's fourth post this appears:

My main argument is that he's far too sure of himself, and I really don't see, in any way, how he can be like that. I mean, I can see how it would be a joke to begin with that he calls me and Nightfall scum buddies (me included ONLY because Nightfall voted for me), but he hasn't let it go.

That suggests to me that he has some sort of outside information here.

And there's no way he would have given an item so broken as to say "You have a one-shot chance to find a scum and all his buddies", or any such thing. To hold onto a belief is playing like Fritzler, and I find that Fritz is often wrong. So...

Bolding mine.
So, why would she think I have outside information? Guilty concience much?
Also, I don't see why it would be out of the question for me to have been cop/tracker/whatever, and trying to get reactions from people in conjunction with my result. Even without it I don't see how it's at all out of the question for me to be trying to get reactions.
Basically the idea is this: I threw out a completely oddball theory, acted sure of myself and saw how people reacted. Nai reacted EXACTLY like RUH ROH THIS GUY KNOWS SOMETHING BETTER GET RID OF HIM.
Of course you're free to have your own opinions on this, but yeah.

A few notes:
1. I find it perfectly reasonable to assume that you have some sort of information. If, for no apparent reason, you are sure Nai is scum, then it follows that you have some extra information (either that or you are nuts ). Cop sounds unlikely because, as Nai explained in the very same post you quoted, you didn't just say that Nai was scum, but that Nightfall was scum with him. Furthermore, given that being so confident with no apparent reason, and that it follows that you have extra information, it would not be a smart thing for a cop/tracker/whatever to let the scum know, because scum like to get rid of anyone with any extra information, other than themselves.

Ok, I guess it was one big point.

1. I find it unreasonable to assume I had some sort of information or especially information on more than one other person.
A. If I had info on more than one person, I'd just make the game about half over right now by claiming that info.
B. If I were scum or cop I wouldn't nessisarily want to out myself by doing something I wouldn't normally do(see: other games where Coron has done this)
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2793 - Technically I was cop, but I didn't have a result. Guy turned up scum.
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2498 - Doctor, guy didn't turn up scum but wouldn't have been a bad lynch anyway...
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2363 - Nurse, guy was town.
I'm sure there are more examples all over, but these were the ones I could remember to look up.
2. As tracker/Cop/whatever one might press for info THEN claim, before the day is over so they can get any possible protection from doctors.

[Nightfall]

Norinel -> I just quickly scanned the rules and couldnt find an answer so I'll ask to make sure.

If the mafia makes a night kill, would the town loose the items that the victem started the night with and then could have passed? Or would the town loose whatever item(s) was passed to him that night?

bassically what is the order of the night actions?

Use
pass
kill?

or
kill
use
pass?

[CrashTextDummie]

Checking in. I'll try to do a reread before the weekend is over.