Mini 380: Artifacts- Game over

[Jules]

*pouts*

I still say I'm right, but I guess I won't get anywhere with them today.

Anyway, I decided to do a reread to take a look at Jules's scumminess. And the first 5 posts made me giggle. These are 4 of them:

Random

vote: Nai

Ha bad mistake coron, baaaaaaaad mistake

unvote nai, vote coron

I'm back on the site

unvote Coron

FOS Nai

- I can't remember the reasons for voting you before and I think it would be unfair to vote without any evidence, but I know you looked suspicious

vote Nai

Reading his posts in isolation also make me realize how little he has commented on. He's mostly been busy with Nai, and he hasn't voiced

anything

regarding

anyone

else.

I'll agree that Jules is quite scummy.

Unvote

(if applicable),

Vote: Jules

. I believe that puts him at Lynch-2.

So you're voting me:

a) Because of a random vote
b) Because I voted for Coron when it appeared he may have inside knowledge, at the stage of the game where everyone is trying to find their feet, get some talking going
c) Because I came back to the site and unvoted Coron who I hadn't been voting for anyway at the time of the crash
d) Because I put my FOS on Nai because I had been voting for him during the crash but didn't have any evidence to put my vote back on
e) Because I decided to put my vote on Nai

Read posts 79 and 101 for the answer to d) and e)

I find the difference between 303 and your previous posts slightly disconcerting and the ease with which you change your mind on me is slightly worrying. One minute, you don't think I'm particularly scummy, the next you're putting me to a lynch -2. If I get lynched, I would appeal to the town to look closely at Zindaras. Bit too easily swayed opinion there when it really matters

[Jules]

I think that, at lynch -1, you should probably be claiming right now. So yeah, I'm requesting a claim.

I am a traveler, with no special abilities

[Jules]

I could see Jules' ignoring of his switched vote during the crash as hoping that nobody remembered it (possibly not knowing that scum players can be pretty observant). However, my problem is that if he is in fact scum, it doesn't make much sense to immediately fold on that argument, since that pretty much does nothing than admit you 'lied' to the opposition.

If I had to vote for someone else, that person would be Nai. Over the course of his debate with Coron, he hasn't used very sound logic (most of the arguments stem from Coron being overconfident, which isn't enough of an argument IMO to deserve over 6 pages).

For now,

Vote: Jules

. No more votes on Jules till we get a defense/claim.

I'm not sure what your argument is

[GreenLiquid]

I could see Jules' ignoring of his switched vote during the crash as hoping that nobody remembered it (possibly not knowing that scum players can be pretty observant). However, my problem is that if he is in fact scum, it doesn't make much sense to immediately fold on that argument, since that pretty much does nothing than admit you 'lied' to the opposition.

If I had to vote for someone else, that person would be Nai. Over the course of his debate with Coron, he hasn't used very sound logic (most of the arguments stem from Coron being overconfident, which isn't enough of an argument IMO to deserve over 6 pages).

For now,

Vote: Jules

. No more votes on Jules till we get a defense/claim.

I'm not sure what your argument is

Exactly what I outlined in the first paragraph. I could quite easily take your forgetfulness of the vote switch as a 'hope they don't remember' kind of thing. This is further supported by the fact that you yielded on the argument, essentially meaning that you admitted that you did remember those posts. I wouldn't exactly see attempting to hide actions like this pro-town.

Also, additional evidence embodied in the 'I was protown in that game' comment.

[CrashTextDummie]

I see no reason not to lynch this guy.

[Stewie]

Hey Stewie, don't you think the votes cast by perfect and luna are typical for new scum?

Yeah, he's overreacting a bit, but I'm not seeing it as typical of new scum...

You are basing you vote on perfect on two posts which, although suspicious, I see them coming from newbie town. Even if I considered perfect's posts newbie-scum, there's still only two of them, against 20 newbie-scum posts from Jules. Furthermore, there's more written in Jules' posts than in Perfect's, meaning more scumminess to extract from them.

Likewise, most of luna's posts are one-liners, and only one of which I really find suspicious (the one voting for Coron). Could have been a newbie mistake and if it wasn't then once again we have much more of these suspicious posts from Jules than from luna.

Finally, what I think is the most important reason as to why we should lynch Jules and not luna or perfect, Jules is still here and can answer questions, while luna and perfect cannot. I still didn't get a satisfactory answer as to why he FOS'ed Nai and later changed that FOS to a vote without any new evidence or explanation.

Posts 79 and 101. If I added anything to that I would be lying

Ill quote those:

I put FOS in all my games on the person I had voted on because all the evidence was lost. We're not going to get anywhere if we don't start putting pressure on again though so I the vote went on

That doesn't really answer my question, because when you put pressure on someone, you do it so that they explain something that's actually there, much like the 5 votes on you actually pressured you into responding to anyone. However, there was no evidence against Nai at the moment, therefore nothing to put pressure on. At first I thought you may have meant "to get the game going" but that is not logical, because to get the game going the best thing to do is vote the person with the most votes, who at that time was Coron (not gonna double check, but I'm pretty sure that's how it was).

I'm back

Ok, my vote for Nai...

The evidence I had gathered and had posted was lost in the first crash. I had gathered enough evidence to come to my own conclusions that Nai looked the scummiest out of what we had seen so far. I don't expect others to follow me in voting because I don't have any reasons I can show you, but just now we are lacking in anything concrete to go on. Thats as deep as my explanation goes I'm afraid

The response from others has been interesting though...

That explains your vote, but it doesn't explain why you went from FOSing Nai - and explicitly saying that it would be unfair to vote without any evidence- to voting for him after a couple of irrelevant posts, ie: with no new evidence.


My Argument, Condensed:
My main problem is that you said:
1. There is no evidence against Nai.
2. It would be unfair to vote without any evidence
3. FOS: Nai because you know that you found him suspicious pre-crash

... and then you voted for him without any new evidence, claiming that it was to put pressure, which doesn't make sense because, as you said, there is no evidence for him to defend against.

[Zindaras]

a) Because of a random vote
b) Because I voted for Coron when it appeared he may have inside knowledge, at the stage of the game where everyone is trying to find their feet, get some talking going
c) Because I came back to the site and unvoted Coron who I hadn't been voting for anyway at the time of the crash
d) Because I put my FOS on Nai because I had been voting for him during the crash but didn't have any evidence to put my vote back on
e) Because I decided to put my vote on Nai

I find the difference between 303 and your previous posts slightly disconcerting and the ease with which you change your mind on me is slightly worrying. One minute, you don't think I'm particularly scummy, the next you're putting me to a lynch -2. If I get lynched, I would appeal to the town to look closely at Zindaras. Bit too easily swayed opinion there when it really matters

f) You haven't said anything about anyone but Nai and Coron. I think that's exactly what scum would want to do, especially if they're both town. If everyone focuses on just them, the (rest of the) scum can just sit back and relax.

F is my main reason, together with your voting behaviour, and I'm amused by the fact that you're ignoring it, even though it was in the post you quoted.

[Jules]

I could see Jules' ignoring of his switched vote during the crash as hoping that nobody remembered it (possibly not knowing that scum players can be pretty observant). However, my problem is that if he is in fact scum, it doesn't make much sense to immediately fold on that argument, since that pretty much does nothing than admit you 'lied' to the opposition.

If I had to vote for someone else, that person would be Nai. Over the course of his debate with Coron, he hasn't used very sound logic (most of the arguments stem from Coron being overconfident, which isn't enough of an argument IMO to deserve over 6 pages).

For now,

Vote: Jules

. No more votes on Jules till we get a defense/claim.

I'm not sure what your argument is

Exactly what I outlined in the first paragraph. I could quite easily take your forgetfulness of the vote switch as a 'hope they don't remember' kind of thing. This is further supported by the fact that you yielded on the argument, essentially meaning that you admitted that you did remember those posts. I wouldn't exactly see attempting to hide actions like this pro-town.

Also, additional evidence embodied in the 'I was protown in that game' comment.

I have never said that I remember them because I don't

[Jules]

Hey Stewie, don't you think the votes cast by perfect and luna are typical for new scum?

Yeah, he's overreacting a bit, but I'm not seeing it as typical of new scum...

You are basing you vote on perfect on two posts which, although suspicious, I see them coming from newbie town. Even if I considered perfect's posts newbie-scum, there's still only two of them, against 20 newbie-scum posts from Jules. Furthermore, there's more written in Jules' posts than in Perfect's, meaning more scumminess to extract from them.

Likewise, most of luna's posts are one-liners, and only one of which I really find suspicious (the one voting for Coron). Could have been a newbie mistake and if it wasn't then once again we have much more of these suspicious posts from Jules than from luna.

Finally, what I think is the most important reason as to why we should lynch Jules and not luna or perfect, Jules is still here and can answer questions, while luna and perfect cannot. I still didn't get a satisfactory answer as to why he FOS'ed Nai and later changed that FOS to a vote without any new evidence or explanation.

Posts 79 and 101. If I added anything to that I would be lying

Ill quote those:

I put FOS in all my games on the person I had voted on because all the evidence was lost. We're not going to get anywhere if we don't start putting pressure on again though so I the vote went on

That doesn't really answer my question, because when you put pressure on someone, you do it so that they explain something that's actually there, much like the 5 votes on you actually pressured you into responding to anyone. However, there was no evidence against Nai at the moment, therefore nothing to put pressure on. At first I thought you may have meant "to get the game going" but that is not logical, because to get the game going the best thing to do is vote the person with the most votes, who at that time was Coron (not gonna double check, but I'm pretty sure that's how it was).

I'm back

Ok, my vote for Nai...

The evidence I had gathered and had posted was lost in the first crash. I had gathered enough evidence to come to my own conclusions that Nai looked the scummiest out of what we had seen so far. I don't expect others to follow me in voting because I don't have any reasons I can show you, but just now we are lacking in anything concrete to go on. Thats as deep as my explanation goes I'm afraid

The response from others has been interesting though...

That explains your vote, but it doesn't explain why you went from FOSing Nai - and explicitly saying that it would be unfair to vote without any evidence- to voting for him after a couple of irrelevant posts, ie: with no new evidence.


My Argument, Condensed:
My main problem is that you said:
1. There is no evidence against Nai.
2. It would be unfair to vote without any evidence
3. FOS: Nai because you know that you found him suspicious pre-crash

... and then you voted for him without any new evidence, claiming that it was to put pressure, which doesn't make sense because, as you said, there is no evidence for him to defend against.

At the point where I put my vote on, the game was as dead as a dodo. Maybe putting pressure on was the wrong term, but we needed to get people to speak. I had had my reasons for thinking Nai was scum therefore it was only logical that he would be the one I would target. I quite clearly said that I didn't expect anyone else to follow me in the voting as there was no evidence. However, from that sprung the Coron Nai debate. I placed FOS's in all my games. In this one, I took it to a vote because I can remember that at that point, I did have a case against Nai

[Jules]

a) Because of a random vote
b) Because I voted for Coron when it appeared he may have inside knowledge, at the stage of the game where everyone is trying to find their feet, get some talking going
c) Because I came back to the site and unvoted Coron who I hadn't been voting for anyway at the time of the crash
d) Because I put my FOS on Nai because I had been voting for him during the crash but didn't have any evidence to put my vote back on
e) Because I decided to put my vote on Nai

I find the difference between 303 and your previous posts slightly disconcerting and the ease with which you change your mind on me is slightly worrying. One minute, you don't think I'm particularly scummy, the next you're putting me to a lynch -2. If I get lynched, I would appeal to the town to look closely at Zindaras. Bit too easily swayed opinion there when it really matters

f) You haven't said anything about anyone but Nai and Coron. I think that's exactly what scum would want to do, especially if they're both town. If everyone focuses on just them, the (rest of the) scum can just sit back and relax.

F is my main reason, together with your voting behaviour, and I'm amused by the fact that you're ignoring it, even though it was in the post you quoted.

Maybe because until about 4 pages ago, everyone else just sat back and watched, including yourself, checking in every so often to ask questions about things that had been said in the debate, or giving an opinion on what was happening

[Jules]

Nice you've decided to join us GreenLiquid. You've made 6 posts the whole game, 3 of which have been in the last 2 pages, joining in only to jump on the bandwagon

If/when I get lynched, I would appeal to the town to look closely at GreenLiquid the lurker aswell as Zindaras

[Nai]

However, from that sprung the Coron Nai debate. I placed FOS's in all my games.

I'm sorry to tell you, man, since you seem to think you were all important here, but you had nothing to do with the debate between me and Coron. I completely ignored your vote or all purposes EXCEPT noting it that, for some reason, you applied your vote there.

A slight deviation, and I want everyone to keep this very important point in mind: Jules was, very easily, remembering that he had a vote on me. However, it completely slipped his mind that he voted ANYONE ELSE during that time.

If/when I get lynched, I would appeal to the town to look closely at GreenLiquid the lurker aswell as Zindaras

You look like you are grasping at straws now. All your arguments are falling through, since most of them are illogical, so now you are trying to put a legacy in to get other people lynched. Amazing.

[Zindaras]

Maybe because until about 4 pages ago, everyone else just sat back and watched, including yourself, checking in every so often to ask questions about things that had been said in the debate, or giving an opinion on what was happening

I've been gunning for you, luna, and perfect. HackerHuck gunned for you and luna too.

To say that there was nothing else going on is a misrepresentation.

[Zindaras]

EBWOP: The reason I cite my own and Hacker's behaviour is because those are the first two that jump to mind.

[Kelly Chen]

I'm still content voting Jules.

I don't see how page 12 made Nai look worse though.

[Stewie]

My Argument, Condensed:
My main problem is that you said:
1. There is no evidence against Nai.
2. It would be unfair to vote without any evidence
3. FOS: Nai because you know that you found him suspicious pre-crash

... and then you voted for him without any new evidence, claiming that it was to put pressure, which doesn't make sense because, as you said, there is no evidence for him to defend against.

At the point where I put my vote on, the game was as dead as a dodo. Maybe putting pressure on was the wrong term, but we needed to get people to speak. I had had my reasons for thinking Nai was scum therefore it was only logical that he would be the one I would target. I quite clearly said that I didn't expect anyone else to follow me in the voting as there was no evidence. However, from that sprung the Coron Nai debate. I placed FOS's in all my games. In this one, I took it to a vote because I can remember that at that point, I did have a case against Nai

(Deleted most of my post for sanity)

As I said before, if what you wanted to do was get the game going, the right thing would have been to vote for Coron, who at the time had the most votes. You even go as far as to admit that you didn't expect anyone to follow you in voting... so how does that get the game going? PS: the Nai-Coron argument did not come from your vote.

[Jules]

However, from that sprung the Coron Nai debate. I placed FOS's in all my games.

I'm sorry to tell you, man, since you seem to think you were all important here, but you had nothing to do with the debate between me and Coron. I completely ignored your vote or all purposes EXCEPT noting it that, for some reason, you applied your vote there.

A slight deviation, and I want everyone to keep this very important point in mind: Jules was, very easily, remembering that he had a vote on me. However, it completely slipped his mind that he voted ANYONE ELSE during that time.

If/when I get lynched, I would appeal to the town to look closely at GreenLiquid the lurker aswell as Zindaras

You look like you are grasping at straws now. All your arguments are falling through, since most of them are illogical, so now you are trying to put a legacy in to get other people lynched. Amazing.

The first part... is that not what you like to call ad hominem?

Second part... we shall see when I've been lynched

[Jules]

My Argument, Condensed:
My main problem is that you said:
1. There is no evidence against Nai.
2. It would be unfair to vote without any evidence
3. FOS: Nai because you know that you found him suspicious pre-crash

... and then you voted for him without any new evidence, claiming that it was to put pressure, which doesn't make sense because, as you said, there is no evidence for him to defend against.

At the point where I put my vote on, the game was as dead as a dodo. Maybe putting pressure on was the wrong term, but we needed to get people to speak. I had had my reasons for thinking Nai was scum therefore it was only logical that he would be the one I would target. I quite clearly said that I didn't expect anyone else to follow me in the voting as there was no evidence. However, from that sprung the Coron Nai debate. I placed FOS's in all my games. In this one, I took it to a vote because I can remember that at that point, I did have a case against Nai

(Deleted most of my post for sanity)

As I said before, if what you wanted to do was get the game going, the right thing would have been to vote for Coron, who at the time had the most votes. You even go as far as to admit that you didn't expect anyone to follow you in voting... so how does that get the game going? PS: the Nai-Coron argument did not come from your vote.

I didn't find Coron particularly, so I didn't vote for him

When you look back, you will find that the Nai Coron debate did flow from my vote. Not solely my vote but that was one of the factors leading up to it. Before my vote, there was precious little. After my vote, Nai started saying stuff, as did others, which Coron latched on to

[Nai]

Actually, no, that's not an ad hominem, kthnxbai. That's me telling you that me attacking Coron had absolutely nothing to do with you. You really aren't that important in terms of that debate. Yours was just a vote, which I didn't care about because, hey, it was vote 2 on me and we need 7 to lynch.

[Stewie]

I didn't find Coron particularly, so I didn't vote for him

But you weren't trying to vote for someone suspicious, you were trying to get the game going. If you were trying to vote for someone suspicious, then we go back to the fact that there was no evidence against Nai, and it would be unfair to vote for someone without evidence, so your argument goes in circles.

When you look back, you will find that the Nai Coron debate did flow from my vote. Not solely my vote but that was one of the factors leading up to it. Before my vote, there was precious little. After my vote, Nai started saying stuff, as did others, which Coron latched on to

I looked back, and I didn't find anything which led me to believe that your argument sparked the Coron-Nai debate, even in part. If you want to convince me, you'll have to go back and quote some posts which make it clear that your vote was a factor leading up to the Coron-Nai debate.

Nai: six. Six votes to lynch. Point stands though.

[HackerHuck]

I've heard enough, but nothing to dissuade me from placing a vote. One nice thing about these last few pages is that we've had much more discussion about things other than the Nai/Coron debate.

I would still like to drop the hammer, but I want to hear from Nightfall before I do. In looking back over his posts, he has been playing it a little too safe. He believes Nai/Coron to be two townies duking it out and has have mentioned a slight suspicion of Jules. Other than that, has just been very solid in his belief that Conflux was scum. Basically a very safe vote due to the inactivity and he has unvoted now that Conflux has been replaced. I'd like to get him to put his thoughts about this lynch on the record before I proceed.


I have a few other questions, but these aren't answers I need to wait on.

It's nice to see Green Liquid participating again, but Jules does have a point about his absence.

Zindaras - You latched onto Perfect for lurking, what do you think about Green Liquid's extended absence?

[Coron]

Jules, do you have any artifacts? You did not mention that with your claim.

[GreenLiquid]

I have never said that I remember them because I don't

If this is the case, why did you suddenly brake on the argument when you were challenged?

Also, one more thing, can you stop responding to posts in seperate posts? No offense or anything, but it's kind of annoying.

[Zindaras]

Zindaras - You latched onto Perfect for lurking, what do you think about Green Liquid's extended absence?

I latched onto perfect more because of the 4th vote on Coron and then quickly trying to slide off the bandwagon. I did do a reread of GreenLiquid, and I'll have to say that I don't really like it. Then again, I don't like it when people don't contribute, in general.

It's a little late here right now, so I'm in no condition to say anything about his alignment, though.

[Jules]

Jules, do you have any artifacts? You did not mention that with your claim.

Not any more. I started with one which I used and passed on