Mini 380: Artifacts- Game over


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Post Post #525 (ISO) » Thu Jan 04, 2007 7:22 am

Post by GreenLiquid »

"Was the initial 'all three scum are voting for me' post made exclusively and entirely to get reactions? Once this is answered I can continue this comment." My post was not made because I wanted to have a 'slip', so your logic doesn't hold here, sorry. I answered the question as presented.
Your answer at said that most of the intent was to gain reactions. In your latest post, you now say that no part of it was to gain reactions. Simply put, your story's changed.
And yes, guilty concience does have the same meaning it's just very condensed. Guilty Concience means pretty much "feeling like you're being attacked for something because you should be attacked for something", with a little bit of reading comprehension it can easily be figured out how this connects to my explanation. I reallly don't like filling the thread with stupid stuff that people should be able to figure out, but you seem to me making me do it and then claiming that I should have wasted a whole bunch of everyone else's time earlier by insulting their intellegence and overexplaining.
Guilty concience, though, isn't a very logical term. When I read it, my mind jumped to the practical term 'guilty concience.' You can't explain something many pages later and remove all doubt, but I will give you the benefit of the doubt on this one.
Also he posted that he was a plain townie with no powers, he did not say ANYTHING about Artifacts, so he did not actually change his claim, in fact he claimed his role(that's what a roleclaim is right?), just not anything about artifacts. Also, saying after it was after a lot of prodding might be an exageration, it was fairly quickly after his claim that he told us about his artifact.
But this seems like a blantant attempt to get out of claiming any artifact whatsoever. Notice how many details of his claim (including the artifact) were only given after someone else asked specifically for that detail. The first claim was nothing short of misleading.
Sorry, but for that last little bit, I'm not understanding what you mean by guilt by association to set up a double mislynch. Guilt by association is where one person is scum so the second person is scum, right? I'm not sure exactly how this at all applies to a double mislynch. Maybe I am misunderstanding you.

By Guilt by Association, a scumbag can set up a link with another innocent player. Then, after his death, the town lynches the other player for being so closely linked to the scum. This is one of the ways scum can really screw a town (oftentimes in endgame, too).
I think Jules is protown because he has made reasonable posts(for the most part) and has had some really stupid worthless acuisations against him. I go out of my way to defend him because I think he's town. I may or may not have cards I am not showing.
Then I suppose we have different opinions on the issue. All I'll say is that all but a small couple of posts Jules has posted have falacious logic, that ad hominem/mocking additude I don't like, or give a bad scum-vibe.
I don't think this is a nasty habit, or even particularly true. If I vote without comment this is probably just a response to whatever is going on. Your inability to make any sense of my Zindaras FOS baffles me, especially if you're actually going through the thread and not simply viewing all posts by X.
I understand your Zindaras FOS after rereading, but the point is that not giving your reasons for voting or FOSing in your post means not telling the town why you suspect that person, and allows for wiggle room to change your story later, without having to explain that one post.
Assuming you don't doubt he had that artifact, is there a point to this or are you just scolding Jules?
I'm almost positive he had one, but the first post was just plain misleading and makes me think that he wanted as little detail in his claim as possible (something I could easily see newbie scum trying to do).
How would that be advantageous at all to scum?

Again, that takes a bunch of details that he would otherwise have to explain and nullifies them. As newbie scum not yet confident with the ability to make a up a good story, I can absolutely see why this would be helpful. Remember, just because he had an artifact in no way means he's town.
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Post Post #526 (ISO) » Thu Jan 04, 2007 8:16 am

Post by HackerHuck »

GreenLiquid wrote:
Also he posted that he was a plain townie with no powers, he did not say ANYTHING about Artifacts, so he did not actually change his claim, in fact he claimed his role(that's what a roleclaim is right?), just not anything about artifacts. Also, saying after it was after a lot of prodding might be an exageration, it was fairly quickly after his claim that he told us about his artifact.
But this seems like a blantant attempt to get out of claiming any artifact whatsoever. Notice how many details of his claim (including the artifact) were only given after someone else asked specifically for that detail. The first claim was nothing short of misleading.
Assuming you don't doubt he had that artifact, is there a point to this or are you just scolding Jules?
I'm almost positive he had one, but the first post was just plain misleading and makes me think that he wanted as little detail in his claim as possible (something I could easily see newbie scum trying to do).
How would that be advantageous at all to scum?

Again, that takes a bunch of details that he would otherwise have to explain and nullifies them. As newbie scum not yet confident with the ability to make a up a good story, I can absolutely see why this would be helpful. Remember, just because he had an artifact in no way means he's town.
I don't buy any part of this argument. Jules is new, he's played in only one other game (so he says), so I cannot imagine how he would know what to claim. Nai's post leads to this claim:
Jules wrote:
Nai wrote:I think that, at lynch -1, you should probably be claiming right now. So yeah, I'm requesting a claim.
I am a traveler, with no special abilities
I don't see any mention of asking for the artifact until Coron brings it up. I'm a relative newbie and I've never had a need or request to claim yet. If someone had asked me to claim, I would not have thought to also mention which artifact I had/have. I don't see how Jules would have had the expectation that a "role claim" would include items he had, especially if they were not in his possession at the time. Also given the fact that his artifact is what pulled him off the hot seat, it would have been in his best interest to claim.

I agree that Jules is suspicious, but you've really tried to hammer on this point, so it's a prime example of reaching.
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Post Post #527 (ISO) » Thu Jan 04, 2007 8:42 am

Post by Norinel »

No vote changes since last count AFAICT, but to get it on this page:

Vote Count:


Nai- 2 (Coron, Jules)
Coron- 2 (Nai, Kelly Chen)
ShadowLurker- 2 (HackerHuck, Zindaras)
HackerHuck- 1 (ShadowLurker)

Not voting (4): CrashTextDummie, GreenLiquid, Nightfall, Stewie

6 to lynch
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Post Post #528 (ISO) » Thu Jan 04, 2007 8:43 am

Post by GreenLiquid »

Why would you, if asked to claim, not share your prime role detail? If you're a townie with an artifact, the artifact is your role, and any not claiming of it just sounds plain suspicious.

Not only that, but note that his claim was worded very, very similarly to what was in the role PM, which leads me to believe that he probably looked at it when claiming. If that was the case, there's absolutely no way he missed the little detail of having an artifact.

As for being new, what I'm saying is that new players, not yet confident in their abilities, will want to make as small of a claim as possible, to avoid slipping up. This particularly makes me think that he's newbie scum who doesn't want to risk making a mistake in his claim (in my first few games, I was very nervous about claiming, or even posting, hence my 'can't claim' fake claim in WRE).
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Post Post #529 (ISO) » Thu Jan 04, 2007 11:38 am

Post by Coron »

GreenLiquid wrote:
"Was the initial 'all three scum are voting for me' post made exclusively and entirely to get reactions? Once this is answered I can continue this comment." My post was not made because I wanted to have a 'slip', so your logic doesn't hold here, sorry. I answered the question as presented.
Your answer at said that most of the intent was to gain reactions. In your latest post, you now say that no part of it was to gain reactions. Simply put, your story's changed.
This is a lie, in my latest post I specifically say my post was not made for the purpose of the 'slip' it was made for the purpose of calling all three of them scum. Calling all three of them scum was to get reactions. So, the post was made to get reactions, but the 'slip' was not intended to get reactions. The 'slip' (that I claimed there were 3 scum without proof, just so we all are talking about the same thing), just sort of happened.
GreenLiquid wrote:
And yes, guilty concience does have the same meaning it's just very condensed. Guilty Concience means pretty much "feeling like you're being attacked for something because you should be attacked for something", with a little bit of reading comprehension it can easily be figured out how this connects to my explanation. I reallly don't like filling the thread with stupid stuff that people should be able to figure out, but you seem to me making me do it and then claiming that I should have wasted a whole bunch of everyone else's time earlier by insulting their intellegence and overexplaining.
Guilty concience, though, isn't a very logical term. When I read it, my mind jumped to the practical term 'guilty concience.' You can't explain something many pages later and remove all doubt, but I will give you the benefit of the doubt on this one.
you better punk, now get off my lawn.
GreenLiquid wrote:
Also he posted that he was a plain townie with no powers, he did not say ANYTHING about Artifacts, so he did not actually change his claim, in fact he claimed his role(that's what a roleclaim is right?), just not anything about artifacts. Also, saying after it was after a lot of prodding might be an exageration, it was fairly quickly after his claim that he told us about his artifact.
But this seems like a blantant attempt to get out of claiming any artifact whatsoever. Notice how many details of his claim (including the artifact) were only given after someone else asked specifically for that detail. The first claim was nothing short of misleading.
Artifacts are a totally separate thing from role, I don't find it misleading. I realized immediately that he had not mentioned artifacts and then asked the question. It wasn't misleading unless you're really dull.
GreenLiquid wrote:
Sorry, but for that last little bit, I'm not understanding what you mean by guilt by association to set up a double mislynch. Guilt by association is where one person is scum so the second person is scum, right? I'm not sure exactly how this at all applies to a double mislynch. Maybe I am misunderstanding you.

By Guilt by Association, a scumbag can set up a link with another innocent player. Then, after his death, the town lynches the other player for being so closely linked to the scum. This is one of the ways scum can really screw a town (oftentimes in endgame, too).
so you weren't talking at all about a double mislynch, that's what confused me. So if you think I am trying to set you guys up for a mislynch of Jules(or vice versa), why do you suspect both Jules and myself so highly?
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Post Post #530 (ISO) » Thu Jan 04, 2007 12:17 pm

Post by GreenLiquid »

This is a lie, in my latest post I specifically say my post was not made for the purpose of the 'slip' it was made for the purpose of calling all three of them scum. Calling all three of them scum was to get reactions. So, the post was made to get reactions, but the 'slip' was not intended to get reactions. The 'slip' (that I claimed there were 3 scum without proof, just so we all are talking about the same thing), just sort of happened.
It sounds like you are trying to wiggle out of contradicting yourself by getting into semantics.
Artifacts are a totally separate thing from role, I don't find it misleading. I realized immediately that he had not mentioned artifacts and then asked the question. It wasn't misleading unless you're really dull.

The artifact you started with is not part of your role? Hohoho, what a jest my fine chap.
so you weren't talking at all about a double mislynch, that's what confused me. So if you think I am trying to set you guys up for a mislynch of Jules(or vice versa), why do you suspect both Jules and myself so highly?

You've both done scummy things. I'm just saying that it's a point towards your guilt now, but based on alignments it could change. For example, if you were to die and turn up scum, it might be used as important evidence for defending Jules, based on how the situation looks at that point.
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Post Post #531 (ISO) » Thu Jan 04, 2007 12:28 pm

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GreenLiquid wrote:
Artifacts are a totally separate thing from role, I don't find it misleading. I realized immediately that he had not mentioned artifacts and then asked the question. It wasn't misleading unless you're really dull.

The artifact you started with is not part of your role? Hohoho, what a jest my fine chap.
I'll have to agree with Coron here. They were assigned to us as were our roles, but I'm not sure that I would specifically link them together. Do you mean to say that from now on we should be expected to claim which artifact we were given at the start? I would think it more likely that we should claim whether or not we currently possess an artifact. That would be a bit more relevant to any pending lynch. I find this to be a relatively weak point that you're trying to drive home quite heartily.
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Post Post #532 (ISO) » Thu Jan 04, 2007 12:51 pm

Post by GreenLiquid »

If you're a vanilla townie, the fact that you started with an artifact IS your role. I'm not sure how hard that is to comprehend.
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Post Post #533 (ISO) » Thu Jan 04, 2007 1:46 pm

Post by Coron »

It sounds like you are trying to wiggle out of contradicting yourself by getting into semantics.
it sounds like you were wrong and I was right, you see that but still do not want to give up your point for some reason.
If you're a vanilla townie, the fact that you started with an artifact IS your role. I'm not sure how hard that is to comprehend.
because it's not.
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Post Post #534 (ISO) » Thu Jan 04, 2007 4:33 pm

Post by GreenLiquid »

Coron wrote:
It sounds like you are trying to wiggle out of contradicting yourself by getting into semantics.
it sounds like you were wrong and I was right, you see that but still do not want to give up your point for some reason.
If you're a vanilla townie, the fact that you started with an artifact IS your role. I'm not sure how hard that is to comprehend.
because it's not.
Wow, that's a great idea. So anytime I want to refute someone's arguments from now on, I'll just say 'no!' Yeah, logic is overrated... :roll:
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Post Post #535 (ISO) » Fri Jan 05, 2007 12:34 am

Post by ShadowLurker »

I would like to know since when is "aggresiveness" or "overdefensiveness" a scumtell as I'm tired of being accused of it in all my games because frankly IMO, they aren't. I'm also curious as to how one post could put luna at 80 while any subsequent posts by anybody can barely change that #.
GreenLiquid wrote:If you're a vanilla townie, the fact that you started with an artifact IS your role. I'm not sure how hard that is to comprehend.
I disagree.
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Post Post #536 (ISO) » Fri Jan 05, 2007 6:36 am

Post by GreenLiquid »

I would like to know since when is "aggresiveness" or "overdefensiveness" a scumtell as I'm tired of being accused of it in all my games because frankly IMO, they aren't. I'm also curious as to how one post could put luna at 80 while any subsequent posts by anybody can barely change that #.

Read the entire reread. She's said more than that. And even then, that one post is extrememely telling. That would be like someone who's acting pro-town the whole time saying 'I'm scum! Lynch me!' only getting someone up to 60.

Overdefensiveness is just a way scum act. It's a good argument... when used correctly. Some players playstyles are just overdefensive, regardless of whether or not you like it, so you've got to bite the bullet and deal with it. Overagressiveness can be scummy, but oftentimes isn't. A lot of it depends on the arguments used and how desparate the attacker is.

Also, we need more people to post. It would be nice to have everyone's suspicions outlined by the end of Day 1 so that we have material to look back on later.
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Post Post #537 (ISO) » Sat Jan 06, 2007 6:14 am

Post by Nightfall »

Sorry, New Year + New job + New Problems have really took a beating on me.

I will try hard to keep posting, but there will be / has been a decrease in the number I am able to make, and the time I am able to contribute.


One thing I have to comment on:
ShadowLurker wrote:
GreenLiquid wrote:If you're a vanilla townie, the fact that you started with an artifact IS your role. I'm not sure how hard that is to comprehend.
I disagree.

I also disagree with GL's comment here. It just means that you are a vanilla townie who is an item carrier. It is not the players powers, it is the items.
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Post Post #538 (ISO) » Sat Jan 06, 2007 9:04 am

Post by Kelly Chen »

Assuming Jules as scum, and that Jules and luna weren't scum partners, I don't see how Jules could have the impression that he would be better off leaving unstated that he'd had the item.

If Jules and luna were scum together then I could see it as a possible blunder that he revealed the Ear's existence, since now we all know about it. But I'm not sure why he would've passed it around at all then. Or even used it.

I still think that starting with the Ear is evidence of being protown. Have you not considered this GL?
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Post Post #539 (ISO) » Sat Jan 06, 2007 10:38 am

Post by GreenLiquid »

I still think that starting with the Ear is evidence of being protown. Have you not considered this GL?
I would say it's a point in his favor, but a miniscule one. You know some of the bad guys are going to start with some sort of artifact or another, otherwise the game would be breakable. I just don't like the way he failed to state up-front that he had an Artifact.

I don't like the way Nightfall just jumped in and agreed with someone before departing. Can you at least state some of your suspicions or something to that extent?

With that in mind, I think everyone should post a list of their suspicions about everyone else. It'll give us a good foundation to work off of from day one, and allow any info we get to be that much more helpful in the long run.
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Post Post #540 (ISO) » Mon Jan 08, 2007 3:23 am

Post by Norinel »

Machiavellian-Mafia replaces Stewie.
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Post Post #541 (ISO) » Mon Jan 08, 2007 12:25 pm

Post by Machiavellian-Mafia »

Hello everybody! I will try to catch up with the game ASAP.
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Post Post #542 (ISO) » Mon Jan 08, 2007 12:55 pm

Post by Nightfall »

GL -> I was suspect of Jules, but the issue of the ear claim leads me to look at him in a more positive and town like light.

Beyond that, Coron was the only one that struck me as being pretty scummy, and he too has actually started to act more townlike imo in recent days. This could all be an attempt by a scum coron to link himself up with a town jules, but I dont have any real evidence of that yet.
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Post Post #543 (ISO) » Mon Jan 08, 2007 6:45 pm

Post by HackerHuck »

In case you haven't noticed from my sig line, I will probably be missing for the next ten days.

GreenLiquid, I thought you were going to take a stand against someone when you finished your reread?

Oh, and I'm still happy with my ShadowLurker vote, but I don't want to risk something screwy happening while I'm gone.
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Post Post #544 (ISO) » Tue Jan 09, 2007 5:02 am

Post by Kelly Chen »

Nightfall wrote:Beyond that, Coron was the only one that struck me as being pretty scummy, and he too has actually started to act more townlike imo in recent days. This could all be an attempt by a scum coron to link himself up with a town jules, but I dont have any real evidence of that yet.
What kind of evidence would you be looking for?
FOS: Nightfall


Coron seems more townlike lately because he's just arguing and defending himself against GL, and that looks on-topic and meaty. I doubt it's any challenge.
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Post Post #545 (ISO) » Tue Jan 09, 2007 7:34 am

Post by CrashTextDummie »

I'm back (even though I wasn't planning to be gone).

I feel like I have not done this game justice, which is why I will dedicate an extensive amount of time to analysing it either today or tomorrow.
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Post Post #546 (ISO) » Tue Jan 09, 2007 10:37 am

Post by GreenLiquid »

GreenLiquid, I thought you were going to take a stand against someone when you finished your reread?
I'm still taking people's reactions into account. More will come later.
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Post Post #547 (ISO) » Tue Jan 09, 2007 11:24 am

Post by Zindaras »

I think I said this when Jules claimed, but I'm not sure how much we should use artifact claims to determine alignments.
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Post Post #548 (ISO) » Tue Jan 09, 2007 12:36 pm

Post by Nightfall »

Kelly Chen wrote: What kind of evidence would you be looking for?
FOS: Nightfall


Coron seems more townlike lately because he's just arguing and defending himself against GL, and that looks on-topic and meaty. I doubt it's any challenge.
But he's doing it rather well.
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Post Post #549 (ISO) » Tue Jan 09, 2007 6:55 pm

Post by Stewie »

Apologies for that. I had to work when I wasn't doing something for the holidays, and then I had to start classes so there books to buy and material to read over. My bad. :(

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