Mini 380: Artifacts- Game over

[Stewie]

And a day too late too. That's some lousy luck.

[Kelly Chen]

!@#$

[Nightfall]

MOD: Could we get a vote count please?

[Kelly Chen]

There's an almost accurate one on the previous page.

Current state should be:

Nai- 2 (Coron, Jules)
Coron- 2 (Nai, Kelly Chen)
ShadowLurker- 1 (Zindaras)
HackerHuck- 1 (ShadowLurker)

Not voting (5): CrashTextDummie, GreenLiquid, Nightfall, Stewie, HackerHuck

Enjoy.

[Norinel]

Apologies; this weekend was more engrossing than I'd expected. Prodding Coron, CrashTextDummie, GreenLiquid, Jules, ShadowLurker, and Zindaras. A deadline will be instated once everyone's accounted for.

Vote Count:

Nai- 2 (Coron, Jules)
Coron- 2 (Nai, Kelly Chen)
ShadowLurker- 1 (Zindaras)
HackerHuck- 1 (ShadowLurker)

Not voting (5): CrashTextDummie, GreenLiquid, HackerHuck Nightfall, Machiavellian-Mafia

[ShadowLurker]

Haven't received my prod yet but I have already stated where I stand.

I believe HackerHuck and Zindaras are scum and if I had to make a third choice right now, I'd say Machiavellian-Mafia.

[Zindaras]

MaMa isn't even in this game.

I say it's Shady-Kelly. Third one I'm not certain about, but I think it'd be Nightfall or Stewie.

[ShadowLurker]

Machiavellian-Mafia replaces Stewie.

[GreenLiquid]

Still here. I'm saving typing up my big post until I have a good chuck of access time to burn.

[Zindaras]

Ah, so the vote count was inaccurate.

[Coron]

My suspicions line up something like this.

Probable scum:
Nai

Scummy:
Nightfall
Machiavellian-Mafia (Replacing Stewie)

Slightly scummy:
Kelly Chen (Replacing perfect62834)

Neutral:
CrashTextDummie (Replacing conflux)
HackerHuck
ShadowLurker (Replacing lunalovegood)
Zindaras

Probable town:
Jules
GreenLiquid

Town:
Coron

[Nai]

Sorry about my absence, folks. I moved into my new house the Friday before Christmas and haven't been able to get internet before last Thursday, but I wasn't sure if I was replaced or no. Just got a message back from Norinel, and I'm back. Now, reading over what I missed:

In response to Green Liquid: Nope, that post wasn't a joke. He was at lynch -1 at the time. That's about the time I expect people to claim, so that they aren't lynched without it.

On the topic of Luna: I didn't find her to be that suspicious in the beginning, but now that you throw light on it again, her actions do seem kinda off. But as I was focusing on Coron the entire time, I didn't pay much attention to it. She does seem scummy, but that might tip either way depending on today's death.

On to Green Liquid disecting my posts: Yes, it wasn't the best grounds for the argument. However, from how he was playing, he was just seeming way too sure of what's going on. To me, that either says cop that knows something, or scum that knows the other person is down. I thought the latter more than the former, obviously. No, he didn't talk about the 'connection' between me and Nightfall for more than one post. However, his entire argument was built up from that. He votes for Nightfall, calling me scumbuddy. I react with an OMGUS vote, and a few posts, then he decides that's plenty to base HIS argument on. If you're going to vivisect my post, do his too. There's no reason to respond to the rest of this.

Continuing with Green Liquid: Yes, I continue to assume that Coron has outside information. But, if I remember correctly, he's the only one I have accused of that. No one else. The reason I think that is because that's the only explanation that can possibly justify his playstyle this game. It may be true that what I was taught is wrong. I'll give you that. But it's better than working off of nothing. If someone acts beyond all possible thought, then I'll assume they know something I don't.

And to even further continue on the advice I was given: I was not referring to someone else attacking stupid logic. I was referring to actual defense of the other person. As in, not "Your argument sucks and shouldn't be bothered with", but "This argument IS valid, but here are the reasons I know it can't be true." There has to be a reason for the latter one. And on day 1, at the very least, the logic I put forth holds true. How can you deny that?

Appeal to Emotion: Not really. Appeal to intelligent thinking is what I was going for. If you attack one person for a specific type of statement, there's no reason not to do the same to another person if they make the same type of statement.

Random Vote: Wow, I'm making a lot of responses to your posts. In any case, yes, his initial vote there was a random vote. However, my following vote (that he calls my 'reaction' to him) was an OMGUS vote. "Oh-my-god-you-suck". How is that a reaction to build a case off of? Again, if you want to make a case on me, do the same to the other guy when he does the same type of things.

Post Numbers: Coron was, apparently, referring to his own posts at this point, not total posts. I had thought he was referring to actual posts here, and couldn't figure out where he was getting his post numbers from. Way to pay attention to the posts.

Classic Scumtells and CrapLogic: Well, I think that, a few posts before this big PBPA of yours, people were actually saying that X attacking Y, and Z attacking X, isn't exactly right. And no, I wouldn't hesitate to put my vote on him. But, amazingly enough, I had my vote on someone else at the time (who I still have my vote on) that I thought was scummier. Right, classic scumtell. Do me a favor and actually pay attention to the posts and the situations when you go back.

Outside Info Revisited: You keep on having this complete and utter vehemence against anyone thinking Coron has outside information. Why is that? Every time someone brings up the point, you attack it. Is there some reason you find someone being a cop, or scum, completely impossible?

Coron's "Guilty Conscience" Argument: Or it might be that I'm town thinking that you're scum trying to frame me. Amazing.

"Wise Strategy": Let me rephrase that, though this is way later, and probbly would have been best called out when it actually happened. Rephrasing: "I tend to go after one person the entire day, after I decide they are scummy. I watch for what other people do, and make notes. Then, the next day, depending on what the lynch brought, I'll either continue my case on the first person, or go onto the next scummiest person." In other words, I watch just one person, because I find that changing my vote back and forth like some people do makes me forget why I was voting for someone in the first place.

Coron and Jules: Am I correct in thinking that you think this is an actual possibility at this point? I thought you were bashing me, earlier, for making the same statements.

Jules, and his ad hominems: Actually, you did it multiple times. You attacked the person, not the argument, many times. Not just once.

"Haha" argument: He can use it as much as he wants, Jules, adding new thoughts, and using new evidence, each time. Showing it multiple times also helps other people remember it in the future. What's your issue with him showing his hand more than once?

"Cards he isn't showing": This is EXACTLY what I was saying with outside information. But, funnily enough, when I say it I'm using craplogic. When you say it, it seems, it's intelligent?

Artifact Roleclaim: Coron, I'd consider what artifacts you've had, and when, to be a big point of this game. When someone roleclaims, I think that powers they have had (which artifacts fall under) would be part of it. If you are a one shot vig, who used his shot, you are not suddenly a towny with no powers. You are a one shot vig that used it. One is VERY different from the other. As such, Jules' claim is way too out there.

As for suspicions? I'm thinking that Coron is scum, Jules is probably scum. I'm not sure who goes with them, assuming a three person scum. I'm also partly suspicious of Green Liquid for contradicting himself a few times in the PBPA.

[GreenLiquid]

A few notes before I post my master list:

In response to Green Liquid: Nope, that post wasn't a joke. He was at lynch -1 at the time. That's about the time I expect people to claim, so that they aren't lynched without it.

I'm sorry, but a small slip at the beginning of the game that is ambiguous at best and suspicious at worst does NOT warrant a page 2 lynch. This response was not the one I was looking for in terms of pro-town behavior.

Classic Scumtells and CrapLogic: Well, I think that, a few posts before this big PBPA of yours, people were actually saying that X attacking Y, and Z attacking X, isn't exactly right. And no, I wouldn't hesitate to put my vote on him. But, amazingly enough, I had my vote on someone else at the time (who I still have my vote on) that I thought was scummier. Right, classic scumtell. Do me a favor and actually pay attention to the posts and the situations when you go back.

You're missing the point. The scum tactic here, one that is pretty widely known, is placing suspicion on someone and implying you will vote for them without actually doing so. This is done so that, for example, if players decide to go back and look at voting records, they will find no record of your 'suspicion' of that player. A way for scum to place suspicion on someone without having to explain themselves when said person ends up town.

I'll get to preparing a whopper here shortly...

[GreenLiquid]

SUSPICION SUMMARY

I'm going to start off by listing thoughts about every player in the game, then follow up probably tommorow with the top three suspects, and then what in my opinion would be the most favorable lynch of the day.

CORON

Over the course of twenty pages, I've been paying special attention to Coron. At the beggining of day, he makes a slip, then rushes to his own defense. Other players bandwagon him for this, some making themselves suspicious as well. Over the course of the day, Coron and Nai have had some sort of vendetta against each other that seems to imply something mechanic based, a scum tactic, or stupid town. This has taken up a large portion of the day, which unfortunately forces me to derive most of my suspicions from reactions to this fiasco.

After I had posted my re-reads, Coron began defending himself, and did a good job as well, using pro-town logic and sounding at least somewhat confident in doing so, making him a bit less suspicious in my eyes than he would've been otherwise.

Coron has used some craplogic over the course of the game and has for some odd reason defended Jules, one of the scummiest players around at this point. I'm not sure exactly what this implies. He has also been answering other people's questions and trying to make generalizations, both things that are annoyances as town and crafty tools as scum.

OVERALL:

Coron is somewhat suspicious overall. He earned a lot of suspicion early on, but partially redeemed himself later by defending himself with logic and good reasoning.

CONFLUX/CTD

I have very little to say in regards to Conflux. He has spent much of the game lurking about, and hasn't posted much of anything useful. His replacement, CrashTextDummie, acts similarly. This unfortunately makes it very difficult to get a good read. This is something that is not part of the pro-town archetype and Conflux/CTD may have to be run up later on if some actual content is not posted.

OVERALL:

Conflux and his replacement as slightly suspicious. I can't get a good read on him, and I think a small yet well-defined list of suspicions should allow me to get the analysis I need. Until then, there ain't much I can do.

HACKERHUCK

HackerHuck has acted as the voice of reason over the course of the game, a definite part of the pro-town archetype. I am not familiar with HH as a player and I'm not sure if this is just ordinary for him or something different, so if any other players can enlighten me in regards to his playstyle, I'd appreciate this. He's not without his flaws, though. Some of the things he points out are quite obvious, and he seems very agreeable, arguing against only obvious targets and voicing opinions that are pretty mainstream, not novel.

OVERALL:

I think HackerHuck is slightly town. I'm not sure I want to push it much further than that, but I think the way he's been acting suggests a pro-town person behind the wheel. Again, we'll see how things change in the future.

JULES

Ah yes, Jules. Unfortunately, there is almost nothing in the way he's been acting that even remotely feels pro-town. He's used crap-logic and lots of it, bandwagoned, used even more craplogic, been incredibly vague when questioned, used some more craplogic, used a lot of OMGUS, and other things too numerous to list.

He's also a major fan of ad hominem attacks and using a mocking tone that fits in perfectly with the newbie scum archetype, which is what Jules would be if scum. And I'm quite sure that's the case. Also notable is the fact that Coron has defended Jules on multiple occasions, with little reason (at least, STATED reason) for doing so.

OVERALL:

Jules is, well, incredibly scummy. He's done numerous things that do not make sense coming from a pro-town player, tried to avoid having to explain himself, and to top it off fits the persona of newbie scum to a T.

LUNA/SL

Luna has done some pretty scummy stuff, but isn't going to be putting Jules to shame anytime soon. The biggest offense on the list is placing a very weak bandwagon at lynch minus one on Page 2. Other transgressions include not backing himself up and not contributing. I think people may be making a little too big of a deal of the lynch -1 thing, even though it is extremely scummy.

OVERALL:

Pretty scummy. Someone that needs to have an eye on them over the remainder of the game.

NAI

Nai is in a similar boat as Coron, in this case vendettaing against him, constantly implying the prescense of hidden info (even in cases where it doesn't make sense), using craplogic, and in general using very, very weak arguments. Almost everything that applies to Coron also applies to Nai, and that doesn't make me comfortable at all.

OVERALL:

Very scummy. Nai has made himself look very suspicious over the course of the day. All of the actions add up to a player that just reeks of having an anti-town agenda.

NIGHTFALL

Nightfall has acted similarly to Conflux, lurking a lot and not posting novel things. Ironically, Nightfall is voting for Conflux for these exact reasons...

OVERALL:

Somewhat suspicious. Again, this is someone that needs more examination before a good conclusion can be made.

PERFECT/KELLY

Perfect started the game off scummy (see my reread for more) then didn't really stand out. I'm not sure why this is, but there seems something odd about it. After a long lurking streak, perfect is replaced by Kelly, who also is being suspicious, her biggest infraction being voting or FOSing without stating reasons. Not someone who stands out (not that that's a good thing).

OVERALL:

Somewhat suspicious. Once more we have someone that I can't get a good read on. I'll have to continue to watch later on in the game.

STEWIE/MM

Great, another Nightfall/Conflux. Stewie didn't do much posting, and could be classified as lurkerish. However, the posts he did make gave me a scum vibe, and made quite a few points I didn't agree with. For this, I would have to say and state that Stewie is a bit (and by a bit, I mean a fair amount) ahead of Nightfall and Conflux on the scum-o-meter. Still in the same boat though.

OVERALL:

Suspicious. Someone that needs to have a PBPA done on them, and probably needs to be carefully watched as the game proceeds.

ZINDARAS:

My sentiments for HH apply here. Acting as the voice of reason, acting pro-townish, and in general being helpful. Not much else to say.

OVERALL:

In the middle, leaning towards town. We'll see here, but I think Zindaras is pretty clean for the time being.

I will reflect on these tonight and post my top 3 sometime tommorow or tuesday, whenever I have a sizeable opening.

[ShadowLurker]

LUNA/SL

Luna has done some pretty scummy stuff, but isn't going to be putting Jules to shame anytime soon. The biggest offense on the list is placing a very weak bandwagon at lynch minus one on Page 2. Other transgressions include not backing himself up and not contributing. I think people may be making a little too big of a deal of the lynch -1 thing, even though it is extremely scummy.

OVERALL:

Pretty scummy. Someone that needs to have an eye on them over the remainder of the game.

luna is a she, please refer to her actions as "she" and mine as "he" so that I may discern them. I see no comments on me so I don't see how I can defend against anything. I have posted a game where she also put someone at -1 with no reasoning and was town so I don't see how that can be that big of a scumtell if one at all against her.

[Nai]

Opening Slip: You're right, it wasn't a reason to lynch him. That bandwagon grew way too fast. However, if he's about to be lynched, I'd rather get information on role from him beforehand and know that the guy that put the hammer on KNEW what he was doing, then have a mislynch and no information until the next day.

Implied Vote: What would you rather me do? I mean, really. I had my vote on Coron, a person I prefer my vote on. If I continue to attack Jules, I get asked why I don't put my vote on him. I say I would, and people like you call it a scumtell. I DO vote, and I get attacked for votehopping. I'd rather do it my way.

[Machiavellian-Mafia]

I'm currently reading the entire game. I'll post my thoughts later today.

[Nightfall]

I would post more but, we have been going around in circles and I only have so much time to play each day.

[Machiavellian-Mafia]

I see that my predecessor did not participate sufficiently, hopefully I can do better.

MaMa isn't even in this game.

Haha


Ok onto the real part of my post:

CrashTextDummie (Replacing conflux) - no read from him because of the lack of posting.

Coron - I see typical Coron-style play from him, so he's not very suspicious at this point

GreenLiquid - His amazingly large amount of effort alone = protown

HackerHuck - I see him as consistently protown

Jules - Although he was scummy at the beginning, his artifact claim warrants letting him live for now, especially because he has probably proven my innocence to someone.

ShadowLurker (Replacing lunalovegood) - I'm kind of in the middle with SL, not enough for me to call protown or scummy

Nai - I see him as the most likely scum at this point, mainly from his war with coron

Nightfall - I see some town tells with Nightfall, so don't have much suspicion on him.

Kelly Chen (Replacing perfect62834) - I get some scummy vibes from Kelly.

Machiavellian-Mafia (Replacing Stewie) - I'm obviously town

Zindaras - He's neither very suspicious nor very protown in my POV

So yeah,

vote: Nai

[Kelly Chen]

Continuing with Green Liquid: Yes, I continue to assume that Coron has outside information. But, if I remember correctly, he's the only one I have accused of that. No one else. The reason I think that is because that's the only explanation that can possibly justify his playstyle this game. It may be true that what I was taught is wrong. I'll give you that. But it's better than working off of nothing. If someone acts beyond all possible thought, then I'll assume they know something I don't.

Outside Info Revisited: You keep on having this complete and utter vehemence against anyone thinking Coron has outside information. Why is that? Every time someone brings up the point, you attack it. Is there some reason you find someone being a cop, or scum, completely impossible?

I am surprised to read this... I was under the impression that you criticized Coron's behavior because it should only make sense if he had outside information. But you really think he has some?

Because if he does, I don't see how his use of this information looks scummy at all. If he has outside information to suggest that you're scum, then it's pro-town to expose it. If he has outside information to defend Jules as town, defending him helps town no matter Coron's alignment. On the contrary it seems anti-town to draw attention to Coron having the info. And it's strange to suspect him for seeming to have it.

Artifact Roleclaim: Coron, I'd consider what artifacts you've had, and when, to be a big point of this game. When someone roleclaims, I think that powers they have had (which artifacts fall under) would be part of it. If you are a one shot vig, who used his shot, you are not suddenly a towny with no powers. You are a one shot vig that used it. One is VERY different from the other.

As such, Jules' claim is way too out there.

I find this position incredible. We basically know Jules had the Ear. The only issue is that he didn't mention it immediately. On top of that, this is an item that scum probably would not start with in my estimation.

[Nai]

My argument was that Coron's behavior made no sense UNLESS he had outside information, such as some that scum would have. I highly doubt he's a cop. However, Green Liquid constantly debunked the theory that Coron has any information other than what a normal townie would have, which is why I wrote those two statements.

As for the Jules role claim, "is" should be "was". I was saying how it was scummy when he first claimed without anything attached to the claim, as if he had no artifact.

I also don't want to play guessing games against the mod.

[Nightfall]

Hacker and CTD could you two post where you stand right now?

P.S. Jules, OTHER THAN Nai, who do you think is scummy?

[CrashTextDummie]

Finally did a thorough reread. I'll do my analysis in reverse order of scummyness for a change:

probably town

Jules - Yes, I was suspicious of him before, but his claim changed everything. I do not believe that a scum would start with the artifact he claimed to have, and I do not believe a scum would behave the way he has. One thing that no one has brought up yet is that there is a very good pro-town reason not to claim the artifact right away: By claiming his artifact, he was forced to expose ShadowLurker, something that is to be avoided when passing along an artifact under most circumstances. Once I got into the mindset that he is probably town, I was able to see his earlier posts under a different light. Definitely not a good lynch candidate.

ShadowLurker - I have no trouble at all seeing Luna's posts coming from an inexperienced townie. ShadowLurker himself has consistently behaved in a pro-town way, and I think he is spot on in his suspicions (as will become apparent later on).

neutral

KellyChen - She has been laying pretty low (i.e. not gotten in any of the major arguments), but I've spotted several instances in which she expressed similar thoughts to mine and posted the way I would expect a pro-town player to do in those particular situations. I know she's tricksy, and I haven't written her off completely, but I'm not bothered by her at the moment.

Coron - I've read his posts more closely than most others, because I couldn't really comprehend what his problem with Nai was and still is. While I disagree with him on a number of issues, we agree on others (Jules, for example), and I couldn't detect any malice or hidden agenda in his posts.

Nai - I could basically copy/paste what I wrote about Coron here. I have trouble following some of his suspicions and reasonings, but I currently don't see any instances of him purposefully working against the town. It's possible that he is fooling me, but I'm not concerned by that possibility at the moment.

somewhat suspect

Nightfall - His early insistance to vote Conflux instead of commenting on current events at the time struck me as scummy, but it could have also been lazyness. He has an air of scummyness troughout most of his posts, but I have a feeling that I'm just paranoid when it comes to him. There's a minor contradiction between his posts 227 (in which he says that he feels a little guarded against me because of my predecessor) and 278 (in which he claims that he doesn't have a problem with me). And while you're asking me where I stand, how about you answer that same question yourself? Because I can't really tell.

GreenLiquid - The amount of topics we disagree on is remarkable. His large analysis posts have been impressive in size, but fairly low on actual points of interest. There's a curious contradiction in his post 487, in which his suspicion on Jules escalates into a "BIG HUGE FOS", but by the end of it, he only places him at "somewhat suspicious". Part of the reason I list him here is admittedly that he would fit in as a scum-buddy to the following gentlemen in case I am wrong about one of them.

suspicious, would like to lynch

HackerHuck - I have a lot of notes on him. Almost everything he says strikes me as dishonest, or something a scum would say. It starts with the Coron/Nai debate, which he played both sides on(Post 123 illustrates this very well). He throws a lot of stuff around in 188, while keeping his vote on the easy target, Luna. In 345, he sets himself up to hammer Jules while casting suspicion on a lot of players over little things once again. This is a recurring theme with him: Ho notices a lot of little things (which are often not actually worth noting, like 368), while keeping his vote on a select group of players (none of which I agree with, by the way). His reaction to the artifact claim was most peculiar: He was one of the most forceful advocates of disregarding it completely (377), indicating to me that he might be scum who saw an easy lynch slip away. Post 415 was again noted down as casting suspicion on a lot of people in a way that feels forced and dishonest. He goes back to hounding Jules in 491, after getting some support from GreenLiquid (there's also a lot of mutual buddying going on here). Overall, I think he has played this game in true scum fashion so far, and I would not at all mind lynching him.

Zindaras - I have even more notes on him (*sigh*), so I'm going to cut this a bit short right now. His insistance on Luna and Perfect being scum was irritating at first. When he kept doing it even when there were lots of other things to discuss, I became wary of it. He has avoided discussion on most of the important topics. His turn on Jules was rather sudden, and he has since embraced him in his group of "people I have always been suspicious of". When Jules claimed the artifact, he went right back to voting SL (previously Luna). What it boils down to is that I don't think Zindaras has being hunting scum seriously. His suspicions seem like alibis to me. I might do a more indepth analysis on him if required.

Stewie/Machiavellian-Mafia - Reading M-M's analysis made me cringe. It was way too superficial for someone who just read the game, and not what I'm used to from town M-M (he's generally not a talkative guy, but I've known him to put some reasoning into his thoughts). Plus it contained some highly disagreeable opinions. I went back over Stewie's posts to see if I could picture him as scum, and I found a number of noteworthy stuff. The first thing that made me raise an eyebrow was the way he hedged his bets when it came to Coron and Nai (quite similar to HackerHuck). Post 297 felt like a rather sneaky way to cast suspicion on Jules to me (asking Coron to actually spell it out). 351, and especially 445 represent rather blatant attempts at fishing. I don't feel as strongly about him than I do about Zindaras and HackerHuck, but he's up there.

Zindi, Hacki, Stewie scumgroup FTW?

Vote: HackerHuck

[Zindaras]

I voted Jules during the lost posts, so my vote for him was not sudden.

I have, in fact, weighed in on most of the important topics. I feel the entire Coron-Nai debate is completely pointless. While I'd know who I'd pick if I'd have to pick one of them as scum, their argument comes off as an argument between two townies. It's the people 'wagoning right onto it that have to be looked out for, so luna and perfect.

[Kelly Chen]

I'm not convinced that Nai's explanation in 570 (wrt whether he does or does not actually think Coron has info) jives well with the quotes in the preceding post.

While I'd know who I'd pick if I'd have to pick one of them as scum, their argument comes off as an argument between two townies. It's the people 'wagoning right onto it that have to be looked out for, so luna and perfect.

luna and perfect have both been replaced. So I take it you are still talking about their Coron votes on page 1-2. It strikes me as though nothing of interest has happened for you since then.


My main thought on reading CTD's analysis is that it's mostly compatible with my feelings, with the exception of Stewie, who I don't suspect much. In 297 he is obviously trying to cast suspicion on Jules, but he

was

voting him at the time, so this doesn't seem too out of line, or like he was trying to get people to start a bandwagon for him. 351 and 445 seem to fish, but they're pretty blatant about it. If there was anything sneaky here I might feel different. I don't think I understand what CTD means by Stewie hedging his bets wrt Coron vs Nai though.