Newbie 310: It's All Over -- WOO-HOO!

[theopor_COD]

Hello all, sorry for my slow start, been busy working all week. Anyway

vote avinyl

as he's posted the least besides me.

[theopor_COD]

unvote, vote Azkar

[theopor_COD]

As for the reasons behind my vote, his defence of Fircoal and weak attack on VitaminR then subsequent unvote just convinces me of his scumminess.

[theopor_COD]

Trying to save your buddy now?

[theopor_COD]

Btw, Azkar, what did you make of theopor's vote?

Well it sucked, obviously

He

did

put me at 1-to-lynch, as Fircoal's pointed out, but I think that you're right that we weren't really in a lot of danger of someone hammering it on page two of the thread.

Other than that, I don't know. I guess I'd like to hear a little more from theopor. He's

convinced

I'm scum, but didn't give us more than a one sentence explanation. The fact that it's his only significant contribution to this game makes me feel like it was more bandwagoning than real conviction.

Of course, I'm biased. The vote was for me, and I don't like it when people vote for me .

In hindsight maybe I was a little eager, being as mafia could have hammered, they'd pretty much sow their own death for tomorrow doing so mind.
However I still think you and Fircoal are the most obvious mafia, this earlier post just seems way over defensive to me. Vitamin almost makes a joke out of your random vote and you respond with an overly defensive post.

Feels like a "safe" post. Random.org to not be held responsible and the ultra-townie smilie with enthusiasm and reassurance that scum is the enemy.

Unvote: Seol,
Vote: Azkar

Based on very little, but it's a start.

Well, I guess if you really want to grasp at straws .. *shrug*

Seriously, though, is random.org any more a suspicious reason for voting someone than any of the other reasons offered, so far?

I guess I'll try to curb my excitement about the next game I play . I admit it, I'm an impatient person. I waited through the queue, I waited through the confirms stage, and I was just happy about getting into the game.

Anyhow I'm happy where my vote is.

[theopor_COD]

Holy Macaroni looks like we'll get a result either way here.

I foolishly in some ways thought Azkar's over defence to the random org vote was scummy, however my assessment of Fircoal and Azkar still fits, I'm pretty happy the way things are. Things at least are developing.

[theopor_COD]

I don't have a good handle on theopor_COD yet. He's wagon-happy, and says he's confident in his position, but I don't think his reasoning as I understand it is compelling. I'd say he looks scummy in a vacuum, but it's not in the least atypical for newbies nowadays.

theopor_COD, let me make sure I'm not misunderstanding you: you said you think Azkar is scum because he's overly defensive, which you then followed up with:

I foolishly in some ways thought Azkar's over defence to the random org vote was scummy, however my assessment of Fircoal and Azkar still fits, I'm pretty happy the way things are. Things at least are developing.

Firstly - why do you say that your "[thinking] Azkar's over defence to the random org vote was scummy" was "foolish"?

Secondly, I must have missed your arguments against the two of them other than that, why do you feel your assessment still fits if you're disregarding the first point?

VitaminR, I haven't had a chance to respond to your response yet, I only get 15-minute slots every so often (I'm in Geneva at the moment), just to let you know I haven't forgotten you.

First question re- the foolish vote on Azkar, it was pretty foolish because the 2 mafia could have come along and hammered him, unless one was already voting him and the other didn't want to raise suspicion, looking back I shouldn't have jumped on the bandwagon especially with Fircoal's first vote being a random one and the argument hardly concrete.

My reasons for doing so remain Azkar's defence and subsequent attack on Vitamin, however I may have been slightly too hasty.

Looking at the general scheme of things we've now had Azkar at -1 and myself at -1. I've been there for a few days aswell so I'm thinking either the two scum are already on me in Thesp, Fircoal or Azkar. Or as yet they're not voting me, the following post from Vitamin got me thinking maybe he's scum and doesn't want to hammer to draw the attention to himself. Seems pretty definate to me.

I'm definitely not going to hammer him.

Argh... now I'm doubting Azkar again.

We also need some input from Avinyl aswell.

Oh and lastly

Unvote

.

[theopor_COD]

so, theopor_COD, who said you still liked your, explained your foolishness then not explain, why you were so happy with it, when you first said you were foolish. Then you remove the vote. Sounds odd.

I'd respond to that post if I could make sense of it.

[theopor_COD]

I think he's saying either both are on, or both are off - if he is, then that's not tautological at all. Do I understand you right there theopor?

Well being as I've been on three votes for sometime either the scum are already on me or they're afraid to hammer I guess. I'm thinking Fircoal looks most guilty.

Theopor, it may sound definite, but I just don't think you're scum. I don't know why, because you're not really making a great deal of sense.

I can relate to that, I can't understand myself most of the time.

[theopor_COD]

I'll re-read this at work tonight and hopefully post some worthwhile then.

[theopor_COD]

I've read the Soel/VR discussion and it's gone totally over my head so I'll re-read it again later and see if any of it makes the current situation anymore interesting.

I will say I find this quote strange here prior to the discussion, appreciate it VR, but strange all the same.

Theopor, it may sound definite, but I just don't think you're scum. I don't know why, because you're not really making a great deal of sense.

Seperately Avinyl's input isn't overly helpful, for a start I'm pretty sure I put Azkar at lynch -1 not Fircoal and I think he needs to explain his reasoning for voting VR a bit more. Plus his vote below suggests he wants to hammer me but is afraid to do so because he'll become suspect number one tomorrow.

I am sorry about my disappearance, i have been ill, but now i am here.
From what i have read, i think theopor_COD, Fircoal and VitaminR seems suspicious. Fircoal defended Azkar with great fervor, and then got very upset over putting Azkar at Lynch -1. Theopor_COD just seems supicious, and VitaminR does not stand for what he says.
I would vote theopor_COD if he was not at lynch -1, so i will

vote VitaminR

.

As such

vote avinyl

[theopor_COD]

I agree, avinyl's post wasn't that good I think I'd like more of an explanation. Also, my lack of comment has because I can barely understand the Soel/ Vitamin R debate.

I'm glad I'm not the only one

[theopor_COD]

Ok I've been doing some heavy reading this morning, mainly berating my own play, I've read the whole thread twice and I've read the individual posts (my own mainly!!!).

As such I can say I've played appalingly, this is my first game on mafiascum so hence the newbie stupidity, doesn't excuse the way I've played thus far though, i'm letting myself down but mostly the rest of you, townies that is, the scum must be chuckling away.

Lets go from the start, I was late to the thread and thus missed the opening exchanges, my first post was four days after things kicked off and then I only skimmed the posts and the interchange between VR, Azkar and Fircoal. My first real input with the third vote on Azkar is bascially crap, I voted him because of his defence of Fircoal but looking at it in reflection it even looks a nothing sort of argument, post 38 is utter rubbish, all I can say in my defence is at the time I looked at VR's argument, followed his idea of thinking, and assumed that Azkar was acting scummily, nowhere near a good enough reason for the third vote. I've read a couple of other newbie games mainly 298 and 302 and the third vote so early is scummy, therefore I can totally appreciate the votes back on me from Azkar, Fircoal and Thesp - I'd have done the same if it was the other way around.

Moving on since that third vote, I'd become tied to the idea of Azkar being the scummiest, only reason I can give for that is that I didn't want to appear as foolish and go back on my original vote for him, trusting myself to be right, looking back that's utter crap and I should have bit the bullet like a week ago and told everyone that my play here was crap, after re-reading the thread I actually view Azkar as the most likely to be town. Azkar asks here why I think he's scum

Btw, Azkar, what did you make of theopor's vote?

Well it sucked, obviously

He

did

put me at 1-to-lynch, as Fircoal's pointed out, but I think that you're right that we weren't really in a lot of danger of someone hammering it on page two of the thread.

Other than that, I don't know. I guess I'd like to hear a little more from theopor. He's

convinced

I'm scum, but didn't give us more than a one sentence explanation. The fact that it's his only significant contribution to this game makes me feel like it was more bandwagoning than real conviction.

Of course, I'm biased. The vote was for me, and I don't like it when people vote for me .

My reply to this is once again bollocks, I'm sticking to my guns but not looking at the wider picture, I'm just looking at my own alignment seeing the three votes on me and automatically thinking Azkar's the one in the wrong, where in reality I am. I know that sounds stupid but looking back that's the only reason I'm still going out to accuse him, 66 is the same rubbish. (Infact I don't think I've posted anything that comes across townie yet!).

I guess the unvote is me finally coming to my senses but not having the guts to explain my earlier voting patterns it looks scummy aswell, to be honest I'm amazed I haven't been lynched yet, I deserve to have been.

Anyway I can't say much else apart from that, foolish, stupidity whatever, i've made a complete ass of myself so far and only hope I can redeem myself . . . and how you may ask . . . well I have an inkling on a scum, maybe wrong but it's about time I offered the town more than the crap I've come out with yet.

Let's look at the way I've played as Soel says 5 of 6 people would be voting if possible and obv a claim's warranted, I'm not going to not yet but will if required,

however one person sticks out for his defence of me

, now I'm asking myself why, surely if anyone views my posts they must find me scummy and prob 90% mafia, however one person doesn't the only real reason I can offer for this is that he knows I'm town and thus wants to appear that way when the inevitable lynch happens, take these quotes for instance,

remember here I think i'm incredibly scummy, Azkar does, Fircoal does, Thesp does, Soel does and Avinyl does

- mind the last two on that are only recent due to postings. I also find the way VR wants to get everyone's opinion on me him fishing for a reason to vote me which won't look so scummy when I lynch - Thing is way I've played I'd expect everyone to vote for me and I could understand it, so I just think VR is scum mainly because I know I'm not despite my awful play so far.


Fishing here . .

I would definitely like to hear more from Fircoal about his theopor vote, though.

And here . .

Btw, Azkar, what did you make of theopor's vote?

Definately not going to hammer, why not it would make sense in my eyes way I've played.

That puts theopor at lynch -1. I think we've had enough discussion here about premature hammering that I can trust no one will do so?

I'm definitely not going to hammer him.

Argh... now I'm doubting Azkar again.

Fishing again . . . just feel he's looking for someone to give him the go ahead to hammer.

Seol, what do you think of theopor_COD?

I'd like to hear this too.

Azkar, you make some good points, but I'm just not sold on the wagon. I don't see it.

Again defending me, even after I've made no more sense

Theopor, it may sound definite, but I just don't think you're scum. I don't know why, because you're not really making a great deal of sense.

Then goes and votes and accuses two seperate ppl, wtf.

Upon re-reading, Seol has become my nr. 1 suspect. He has focused pretty strongly on me and it bothers me that he has mostly only commented on the other players in this game when asked specifically about one of them.

Avinyl is probably nr. 2. I agree with theopor's questions about his vote. On the whole, though, he has not posted that much and I can't really say I've seen enough of him to get a read on him.

Vote: Seol

Anyway to conclude, I've made a complete ass of myself but I still think there's plenty of time for things to turnaround. Before I sign off

Vote Vitamin R

[theopor_COD]

Guess I should

unvote, vote Vitamin R

[theopor_COD]

Heh. I'm so going to get myself lynched...

Theopor, your awful play just seemed sincerely clumsy to me. It didn't seem manipulative, just like someone who wasn't exactly sure what he was doing. I still don't think you're scum.

It wasn't an elaborate plan to catch anyone but I stand by my last post, I just think townies however experienced have to view me as scum or had to at any least, nowhere have you even discussed the idea that I'm looking the most guilty, it's like your trying to push a lynch on someone else because you know I'm town, I think the plan was to lynch someone else maybe Soel, (mind I'm not sure on him, he could easily be your scum partner) and then get me easily lynched tomorrow, I'm maybe miles off there, but your defence of me just doesn't look like anything a townie would do. I think you'd get respect if you hammered me pages ago.

The fishing...

Fircoal: he voted you and I wanted him to explain it more. I don't think a third vote early in a newbie game is necessarily a scum tell and I wanted him to back it up with reasoning.
Azkar: I thought his reading of someone voting for him could reveal a lot about his alignment.
Seol: he only focused on me and I felt he was avoiding your wagon. Also, from his earlier comment about you (which I will quote below this) I thought he saw you in the same way and I wanted to see if he would stick to that. I find the fact that he hasn't pretty scummy.

I think you have turned it around and you pulled up some good analysis. Don't fault yourself if you end up lynching me, I screwed up as an IC here, I think.

Fircoal's response is rational, he's new like me and having read another of his newbie games, with someone putting another on 3 votes early his caution is understandable. I think he's town.

Azkar's defence yet again is calm, he votes for me with good reason and questions my vote on him, my response is one where I'm worried about the votes on me, I should have backtracked but didn't, again I think he's town.

I'd agree with you Soel, he's partially ignored the issue, instead preferring to focus on your original attack against Azkar/Fircoal.


Looking at the others I'm not sure on Thesp and Avinyl, Thesp hasn't offered a great deal he seems to be very experienced from his mafia CV, I don't think he's proved himself pro-town yet. Avinyl has posted so infrequently its hard to tell again. Soel has confused me more than anything and again I'm not sure on him. The two scum I'm pretty sure are between yourself, Thesp, Soel and Avinyl.

[theopor_COD]

I'd agree I'm not sure on Thesp I think he needs to offer some opinion instead of throwing in the odd barb. VR I'm not with you on Avinyl don't see how he's in the clear not yet anyway, he seems happy under the radar, as like Fircoal just asked why do you think he's not scum?

[theopor_COD]

Well if we listen to you then Azkar and Soel are the scum partners, right?

[theopor_COD]

I'm not convinced on Soel but I'd like to hear his reaction to my thoughts on Vitamin.

[theopor_COD]

Soel -

I could hardly play any worse eh!

It may well be looking for sympathy but I didn't set out for sympathy more so trying to explain why I've first voted for Azkar and then stubbornly kept up my argument against him, I've re-read the thread a couple of times and since have realised how weak my argument against him is/was.

As for Vitamin R, it surprises me that he hasn't even discussed the possibility that i'm scum, I haven't seen one post from him that says "yep theoper sure looks scummy". Everyone else has right?

I don't really know what else you want me to explain I find VR's lack of an attack scummy I guess, although he since has made a further defence for it. There's not much more I can say my argument before against Azkar was weak and since then today I've tried to reevaulate everyone elses play, VR just struck me as the one who stood out most.

A claim - well I'm a townie nothing more.

[theopor_COD]

Want mine -

VitaminR
<big gap>
Soel
Thesp
Avinyl
<big gap>
Fircoal
Azkar
Theopor

[theopor_COD]

and Avinyl whilst your at it.

I'm thinking Vitamin is making some sense there with his theory on Soel, I'm not overly sure if it clears Vitamin in my mind though, however I'm going to

unvote

. More conversation the better.

[theopor_COD]

Seol's a very good debater. He's probably either being very helpful or very unhelpful.

Seol - Somehow, he feels more like a machine than a human. I don't know how to describe it.

I think that sums up Soel perfectly, he's damn good town or scum! Mind VR isn't far behind, one of them is very good at lieing.

[theopor_COD]

What I'm looking at is partnerships. I can't actually see one with Vitamin, he stands out in that respect. The only person I can see as slightly having offered any defence of Vitamin is Thesp -

I don't buy the VitaminR wagon at all. I'm also a little surprised at you, Seol, for seemingly trying to equivocate likelihoods to the firmness of logic. The argument isn't that someone is necessarily scum under the "doth protest too much" tell, it's that scum are more likely to exhibit that behavior. It appears that VitaminR does not think scum are significantly more likely to exhibit that behavior. It looks like a mountain out of a molehill there to me. The lack of an unvote is unusual to me as well, after "it does resolve the sticking-point I had".

FOS: Seol.

Hmm. I'm still fairly fixated on theopor_COD, and I'm a little surprised at the lack of claim from him after essentially being told to do so (rightly, I think) by Seol. I don't agree with the VitaminR hate at all.

Where as with Soel I can see links with Azkar, Avinyl and Thesp to some extent.

[theopor_COD]

This game is like War and Peace lol. I need to review some things, although Thesp's input is interesting especially considering his opinion on VR.

[theopor_COD]

Fircoal what do you make of Thesp's point?

[theopor_COD]

Still here guys had a mad weekend, I'll hopefully get a chance to review all the thread especially pages 6-9 tomorrow morning on and I'll have a close look at Fircoal's posts. Oh and welcome gorckat.

[theopor_COD]

Ok had a quick re-read, will have a further one this morning as such I'm inclined to be leaning towards a vote for Fircoal. Too much fence sitting, fishing, not really enough input to catch the scum in my opinion.

MAybe he has no comments.

I'm pretty sure Soel would have had a comment on the early bandwagon, fishing for a response.

Though I too, would like to hear from Avinyl.

More fishing . . .

In fact, I want to here from one of our lurkers, names Thesp. My suspicions at this point are about the same as Seol and Theopor_Cod, except the fact that they both could be scum.

And some more.

I would like to hear input from Theopor_Cod, Seol, and Avinyl. I've heard what Theopor said, but a little more has happened.

Keeps on.

Well then what are your opinions about Azkar?

And on, then posts his suspicion list before asking everyone else to do so, I find this slightly scummy, it gives me the vibe he sort of wants an update to see if anyone finds him suspicious

Azkar, what do you think of Avinyl, and Thesp?

Back at the information game.

Anyway to sum up all of Fircoal's 46 posts so far I've looked at them and none really seem to be of any assistance from a town standpoint, he's either fishing for information or speculating about scumpairs, he's also pretty quick to change opinions of people. Here for instance posts that he finds Thesp more scummy than town, then an hour later totally changes his opinion after Thesp makes a post claiming he doesn't agree with the Vitamin R hate and that he still wants a claim from me.

I'm not sure on Thesp, but it seems that he's more scum then town, I'm still not seeing much that could make Thesp or Avinyl more on the town side.

Vote: Seol

I feel I can trust Theopor_Cod, Akbar, and Thesp a little bit.

Thesp's well down his scum list aswell, seems odd considering he found him more scum than town

ok here is my list:

Seol
VitaminR
Avinyl
<huge gap>
Theopor_Cod
Thesp
<big gap>
Azkar
Fircoal

Anyway I think Fircoal deserves an

FOS

and I'm going to be keeping a close eye on him. I'd also like others to comment on his play so far. Cue fishing jibe.

As for the others - well not much change, Vitamin is putting across a good argument against why he finds me pro-town, although I'm still not convinced with his attack on Soel, that debate is one that needs a few spare days to get my head round. Avinyl has posted very little so unable to decipher much from him, I do think he needs to give a good summary of his opinions so far not just the one/two liners. Thesp is playing careful it seems, I'm finding him more pro-town than not but again not convinced. Lastly gorkcat have you anything else to add so far other than your vote on Vitamin? Maybe a summary of the thread so far and these charts, i'm itching to see something.

[theopor_COD]

EBWOP - I'm not voting Soel above there. The Quotation mark was missed. As such

unvote

if needed.

[theopor_COD]

The reason I'm switching my stand point, so much is that so many good arguements are going out, I don't know who to trust, and who is right. Every post I believe who ever posted last. I Don't think that fishing is a scum tell, and I'm not fishing for power roles.

I'd agree that I don't trust anyone, not as forcibly as Vitamin has in any case or you Fircoal, with your current stand with Azkar nee gorckat, does this still apply?

I'll add that i'm not implying that your fishing for power roles, i'm more interested in trying to understand where Thesp is coming from.

[theopor_COD]

Gorckat you got any opinions on anything else other than Vitamin R. So far to me it doesn't seem like you've come in with an open mind, i can sort of see where your coming from with the attack on VR and his so called slip with stance on Fircoal.

Also I think it's time Avinyl posted something worthwhile his lack of particpation isn't helping.

Thesp is looking much more town. I'm getting a warm feeling from his posts mind it would help even more if he substantiated his opinions on Fircoal.

[theopor_COD]

EBWOP: Should have added to first sentence that although I can understand the attack on Vitamin, other things are worthy of discussion.

[theopor_COD]

I have had internet problems again. I really hope it is fixed for good now. I will reread.

Come to any conclusions?

[theopor_COD]

vote fircoal

Been reading some of Thesp's games, he's obviously on to something.

[theopor_COD]

Hunch mainly - I'd like Thesp to elaborate mind. Cannot dechiper anything from Avinyl due to a lack of information. Soel/Vitamin I'm not sure about - they could both be scum unlikely, both be town possible or one of each. Azkar/Gorckat again I'm not sure on but my reasons for finding you scummy apply to him aswell.

You I just think look the dodgiest and something's still nagging about me being on 3 votes for so long earlier, I tend to think the scum could have hammered me, then easily argued their way out of the next day's lylo lynch, guess what I'm saying is that if Soel, Vitamin or Avinyl hammered me back around page 3 we'd then be at 2 scum 3 townies the next day, one townie would only need to make a slip, vote for another townie and it would be game set and match. Therefore I'm leaning towards at least one of the scum being on my wagon from early on, maybe two. Plus we need some more discussion so hopefully this will raise it.

[theopor_COD]

To summarise -

I think if Vitamin, Soel or Avinyl voted me they could easily argue themselves out of the next day's lynch, Soel and VR's debate highlights that fact to me they're both pretty darn clever. It would be advantageous for any of them to hammer, kill someone at night and pretty much be 90% favourite in my eyes to lynch a townie over the next two nights. Out of Thesp, Azkar/Gorckat and Fircoal - i'm leaning towards Fircoal only based on posts mainly. Anyway it's something to discuss.

[theopor_COD]

I see your point, but what if they thought it would put them in too much suspicion. Maybe they might not of been able to get out of it. I don't think that's any reason to clear them, if you are clearing them. That post makes me a bit more suspicious of you.

Suspicious maybe. However I think after reviewing the game and how it's developed since the early stages any of the three could have argued they're way out of it, Avinyl yeh he may have got lynched, but VR and Soel I think could have hammered and then escaped a lynch or at least thrown us off the scent off the other scum so as we'd have lynched a townie once over the next two daytimes. They've proved to me over the thread that they can argue pretty damn good, VR is v.intelligent whilst Soel is like a machine. I think it would have been a wise move for the scum to hammer knowing my alignment, I guess it all depends how much I'm trusted here. Plus I haven't cleared them totally, I just think one of three on my wagon was scum, maybe even two of them. As I said earlier around bottom of page 5 I thought VR was scum for not finding me mafia but on reflection I think if he was scum it would have made sense for him to hammer and then argue tomorrow that I pretty much deserved it.

[theopor_COD]

But what if you were mafia and they didn't hammer you because either they were town and wanted more proof, or they were scum with you.

Yes but I know I'm not . .
That's why I've speculated that it all depends how much I'm trusted. If I'm wrong then I'm wrong but currently it's the clearest theory I've got, especially after Vitamin's made a good argument against my previous one, and as I say I think VR could have cast the fourth vote and then found an escape route from tomorrow's lynch as could Soel.

[theopor_COD]

Fircoal let's say I'm wrong, where are you thoughts currently?

[theopor_COD]

My thoughts are that you seem to be more scummy.

No surprise there being as I'm starting to point the finger at you.

As I see more suspicion pile on me, it looks like I would of been a better target to go after instead of the other 2.

I suspect Azkar/Gorckat and Thesp for the same reasons but Thesp's posts don't seem to concern me so much, I'm not convinced with Gorckat however, he's come into the game and posted a one-liner or so attacking VitaminR and as yet hasn't commented on any of the early wagons, possible avoidance? I'd be content voting him for the same reasons I'm voting you.

Also, I think you might be trying to cover for your scumbuddy.

Who's that then?

Seol and VitaminR have both been posting good arguments (Not as much lately, but before during the debates), which both of them seem like they are trying to get the other lynched.

Agree, but there's still a possiblity there both town. Getting each other lynched doesn't mean jack really if one was mafia as I say they could lynched me and then used that excellent debating skill to escape the next lynch.

Thesp, is hard to get a read on.

gorckat, is still looking like town in my eyes.

Ayinvl,

really

needs to post more. Ayinvl's posts are a bit scummy.

As for these three amigos, I'm with you on Thesp, he does need to explain his vote on you in better detail. As I say I've read some of his other games and he seems quite a master, we have sure got some top IC's in this game in Thesp, Vitamin and Soel, I feel in awe after the way I started the game. I think I read somewhere best tactic with Thesp is to follow him, if he town are doing well he's town, if town are doing badly he's scum.

Fircoal, any thoughts on Gorckat's reluctance to post anything but a small slip from Vitamin, I don't see much in it to be honest, he's pretty much avoided everything else

And which posts in particular are you finding scummy from Avinyl, mind as I've said before he does need to post something which is going to help the town once during the game. Either that or ask to be replaced because his lack of assistance is a hindrance he's either doing it on purpose i.e scum or telling the truth, i.e internet problems. However he's not going out of his way to catch the baddies.

[theopor_COD]

I'm not bandwagonning anyone I just think Vitamin and Soel could have hammered, killed another townie at night, put us at lylo, easily hammered and won the game if they were scum. The whole basis of my argument is that they didn't, when I first/second time re-read Vitamin stood out most for his staunch defence, but now after reading again I think if he was scum he would have hammered, I think it's fair to say he'd have a pretty good chance of avoiding the lynch or at least ensuring his scum buddy didn't get detected. I think it's a pretty sound argument, the scum would have been at a huge advantage doing so in my opinion.

As for your points above - only Thesp was suspicious of you, I am after re-reading but from what I can tell no one else, there's no need to do a spot of

WIFOM

with the I'm starting to bandwagon line, hell it's page 11, we need to develop some theories, do you expect to not once come under any suspicions? I think at some stage everyone does.

You then totally ignore my question on Gorckat, the one that he's come in and not commented on the early exchanges only on a passing misnoma from Vitamin. Mind you refer to it being slightly scummy at the foot of the post, I'd love Gorckat to add more opinion by the way because right now Vitamin looks pro-town to me as does Soel.

I'm not scum so the third part is irrelevant, however I like the way you assume Avinyl is the next most scummy, because he's absent I guess?

The argument on Thesp is just one I've picked up from reading some of his other games, he must find something suspicious in you, however I'm not voting you for the fact he is. Yes his vote made me review my opinions of you and after reading your posts and then re-evaluating the early wagon, I've formed my own opinion. I cannot see why you think I'm following Thesp's reasons for voting you especially as we don't know Thesp's reasons!

As for Gorckat/Avinyl. I find Gorckat more scummy and yep if you turn out to be mafia, then he's the one I'll have my eye on next, you want an

FOS

for him there you go.

[theopor_COD]

Theopor, your theory relies on the thought that an experienced player could argue themselves out of a lynch. The problem with that assumption is that from it follows that an experienced player could argue someone else into a lynch. Consequently, an experienced scum player would still have the experienced pro-town player(s) to contend with the following day.

So... stop attacking each other. Neither of you is scum.

I think either you or Soel could easily argue your way out of a lynch the following day especially when it was in lylo. It would make sense to kill one experienced player at night, then all it needs is one newbie townie to make a rash vote the next day on a townie and the two scum could easily pile on. It just seems a viable option. I also don't know how convincingly clear both me and Fircoal. It does seem Vitamin that you have a vendetta against Soel and to be honest I don't think either you or Soel are scum.

[theopor_COD]

Vitamin what do you make of Gorckat? As I say I'm pretty leery of both Fircoal and Gorckat wouldn't have a problem voting either.

[theopor_COD]

I'm pretty happy with the way Fircoal has defended my attack on him, by leery I mean suspicious (not that I'm not off everyone, some more than others mind). Suspicious due to the theory laid out over the previous page. Doesn't mean I've cleared him in my mind but I feel happier about him, as such

unvote

.

I would still like to hear Thesp's reasons for his vote on Fircoal all we have so far is this:-

His approach seems as though it would be more advantageous coming from scum than from town, and doesn't feel genuine to me.

And yeh I'd like to hear more from the other three guys aswell especially Avinyl. I'd also like Gorckat's opinion on the rest of the game, still waiting for them charts!!

[theopor_COD]

Fircoal, I don't think it's fair to say that theopor picked you. He has repeatedly stated the reasoning that led him to suspect you. Also, you're not the easiest target. Thesp may have his vote on you, but his reasoning is still non-transparent. I have Avinyl and gorckat voting for me, with Seol more than ready to join if theopor were to show willingness to vote me.

I meant that he picked me out of Thesp, and Gorckat. Thesp is consided pro-town by almost everyone, so I don't think he'd look there. Also he said Gorckat is almost as scummy, yet he hasn't put much proof there. maybe it's because he think's my bandwagon would do well? While he has reason, it seems like there are other things in his vote.

I'm not convinced Thesp isn't scum by any means, he isn't overly helping and I'd like more information from him on his reasons for voting you. My main basis for the attack on you was from his vote and then my analysis of your posts, plus the theory that Soel/VR could have hammered and avoided the lynch. I'd agree Gorckat looks scummy and the fact he hasn't focused on anything other than the Vitamin post calling Fircoal town does look like avoidance. To be honest he's posted since my original attack on you and hasn't commented on that either so he's worrying me.

Seol is very logically consistent, but his behaviour doesn't fit that of a confused townie to me. He doesn't go out of his way to build theories and ask people questions. He doesn't suddenly change his mind or come up with new things.

I agree with this aswell but still view Soel as more pro-town than pro-scum at present.

Anyhow - call me mad for chopping and changing but

Vote Gorckat

, mainly because I'm finding him suspicious for same reasons I find Fircoal/Thesp suspicious - did find Fircoal most suspicious due to his fence sitting, lack of attacking posts however his defence has helped clear things for me. Gorckat's lack of comment on the majority of the game also worries me.

[theopor_COD]

@theopor: What earlier events do you want me to comment on? Replacing into the game has been a little trickier than I expected. I thought the biggest things were the wagon on you and the VR/Seol debate. I did not think you're 'sympathy' post was damning and actually thought it made a case for you being town (which I stated earlier).

I guess I wanted you to throw around a few more suggestions other than calling out Vitamin. No harm in commenting on everything, what do you think of the fact I was on 3 votes for over a week anything in it?

Avinyl you still there, I'm waiting for something worthwhile from you.

Vitamin agree with you, Thesp needs to explain his thoughts a little clearer, he comes across pro town but aint really going out of his way to assist and share thoughts.

[theopor_COD]

unvote, vote avinyl

He needs to do some talking, we got a week.

[theopor_COD]

MeMe any news on Avinyl?

I'm getting ants in my pants about where to put this vote, be nice to hear from Soel aswell.

[theopor_COD]

Avinyl has picked up his prod

.

Let's hope he comes with something thought inspiring.

[theopor_COD]

unvote

I'm waiting for Soel and Avinyl.

I'm happy with a Fircoal, Avinyl or Gorckat lynch or a Seol, Vitamin or Thesp one lol.

Seriously I don't really know which way to turn. Although I'm probably more suspect of Fircoal than anyone else only because of the reasons I raised a page or so ago and the majority of posts laid out by Thesp, the same thoery applies to Azkar/Gorckat aswell. Thesp I'm not sure on, Vitamin I find suspect for not finding my suspect earlier, Soel and Avinyl have been quiet lately reason enough to find them suspect. I'm also unsure why Thesp is backing Gorckat and Vitamin backing Fircoal and both opposed to the others lynch candidate, I can't see that great a difference between Gorckat and Fircoal . . . I'm rambling now.

[theopor_COD]

I'm ok with a Seol, or Theopor_COD lynch. MAybe Avinyl, too. I still think that Theopor_COD is the scummiest, and Seol is close to that.

Go on why?

Because I cast suspicion on you is it, at least point out why you find me scummy, an argument for my lynch shall we say and the same for a Soel lynch.

I'm still happy with a Fircoal or Gorckat lynch.

[theopor_COD]

I still want to hear from Avinyl and Soel.

Been nigh on two weeks since anything from Soel, Avinyl pops up once a week to say something's coming, it never appears.

[theopor_COD]

Agreed, MeMe any chance we could have an extension? Say a couple more days? Obv if both Soel/Avinyl pipe up today then fair enough.

I'm also still waiting for Fircoal to elaborate on my question in 306.

[theopor_COD]

What do you mean by "Go on why"?

MY reasons are the same as before.

I just think your whole argument against me is pretty much OMGUS because I decided to take a closer look at you.

As soon as I found your posts/actions suspicious you've then gone back and ascertained that I'm the scummiest pretty much for finding some suspicion on you. Yeh I followed Thesp a little but he didn't elaborate on his reasons until after my theory on the early three votes and yep the same theory applies to him and Azkar/Gorckat but their responses seem to have come with an understanding that townies will analyse things like early voting patterns and come to conclusions. You on the other hand don't seem to accept that a townie would do such a thing and find suspicion on yourself. I find everyone pretty suspicious and haven't cleared anyone . . . but unless anything dramatic changes in a day I'll be voting you.

[theopor_COD]

[quote="Fircoal]
It wasn't OMGUS, I thought that your reasoning was scummy, as I said before, and that you could of picked the other people but the bandwagon factor was what tiggered it.
[/quote]

I think it would be more scummy if I didn't comment on the early wagon on me. Being on 3 votes for over a week is pretty much a decent place to start looking for scum, as I say I still think Soel/Vitamin could have hammered and then escaped a lynch, which is why I'm thinking more so the scum were already on the wagon. Yeh I could have picked Thesp or Gorckat as a possible candidate, but I picked you based on your posts, lots of fishing going on earlier, asking ppl for opinions, not much in the way of going out to catch scum. Your now overly defensive because there's suspicion on you and are voting me pretty much because of it, I'm say 90% sure your scum.

I'm pretty sure your more scum than Soel who seems to be the other candidate. I don't want Soel lynched, you I'm happy to lynch.

[theopor_COD]

EBWOP - Top paragraph is Fircoal quote if anyone's unsure mucked up my quotations as usual, ought to use the Preview tool.

[theopor_COD]

Interesting. I expected to find a guilty on VR Night 2 after learning that Fircoal is guilty (given how he'd been convinced of Firc's innocence earlier)...time to reread and see who to look at next (assuming I don't get the axe myself Night 2)

vote:Fircoal

Are you claiming cop?

Oh and welcome MoS good luck with the read, I'd like to hear some opinions.

Avinyl pls pipe up.

And I must say I'm dissapointed with the way Day One ended, apologies to VR aswell let's just hope his work wasn't in vain. More later.

[theopor_COD]

Well I gotta say Fircoal was my preferred lynchee yesterday so I tend to believe you, but I'm going to hold off voting because I want to hear everyone's opinion on it.

Either your the cop and Fircoal's scum

Or you're lieing and your the scum bum

Decisions, decisions - killing VR seems an odd move for Fircoal to make aswell especially with VR's staunch defence of him, I'm not sure . . .

[theopor_COD]

Good point MoS re the killing of VR.

I'm certainly not going to be after a quick day two. We need to nail a scum today or it's game over pretty much.

[theopor_COD]

Thoughts on the other scum pls, Fircoal and Gorckat.

I'll be voting one you two mind.

[theopor_COD]

Hmm interesting day. Thesp can you explain a little more to me why a no lynch is best, I'm pretty confused with the whole thing.

[theopor_COD]

I think I'm leaning towards a Gorckat vote, why if Avinyl's scum would he defend Fircoal so resolutely, make more sense to pile on and lynch him, not counterclaim. Also I don't think a cop claim was in order at the start of the day, seems an opportunisitc plan from scum.

I think if Gorckat's scum then Thesp is the likely acquaitance as I maintain that if Soel was scum he'd have hammered me yesterday . . . which I guess is why Thesp prefers a no lynch. MoS thoughts?

[theopor_COD]

Man this is messing with my head.

A no lynch will pretty much leave us in the same predicament tomorrow though won't it. What will we gain from a no lynch, not much that I can see just another townie down. However I can see in a way that it's beneficial to gain more from another night of cop investigations and kill analysis, mind we'll then be at 2/3 and lylo.

I need to do a fair chunk of analysis me thinks - I'd also like to hear more from Avinyl on his thoughts on the other scum partner he's hardly said anything all game then drops the cop counterclaim. Gorckat mind wasn't particulary helpful from when he replaced in.

From early impressions there's going to be a fair whack to look at so pls be patient all.

[theopor_COD]

We must have been reading a different game, mind he's been more helpful than Avinyl I'll give him that.

[theopor_COD]

vote no lynch

[theopor_COD]

Bah.

I wanted to die.

[theopor_COD]

Cops pls step forward.

Lylo time aswell so everyone pls proceed with caution, not that I expect you not to.

[theopor_COD]

Interesting. I won't be rushing that's for sure.

[theopor_COD]

[theopor_COD]

Fircoal thoughts on Gorckat's partner?

[theopor_COD]

What made you ask about MoS ahead of me or Thesp, Avinyl?

[theopor_COD]

If I was scum, don't you think I would have cleared my partner (the way Avi "cleared" you) to make it

easier for theopor

to make up his mind?

Cleared your partner? MoS if he's town is in the same situation as me, why have you just singled me out?

[theopor_COD]

This game is taking up all my thoughts at present, I couldn't sleep last night because of it weighing up the options . . . waiting on MoS to respond to Avinyl's findings because I'm still concerned there's a chance Avinyl and Gorckat are playing us for fools.

[theopor_COD]

This game is taking up all my thoughts at present, I couldn't sleep last night because of it weighing up the options . . . waiting on MoS to respond to Avinyl's findings because I'm still concerned there's a chance Avinyl and Gorckat are playing us for fools.

I hadn't thought if they could both be scum.

Anything's possible.

[theopor_COD]

So we got

Gorckat 2 - Fircoal, Avinyl
Fircoal 1 - Gorckat
Avinyl 1 - Mastermind

My head say's one thing, my heart say's another and a voice from the dead is saying another.

At least everyone thinks I'm a townie

Give me a few hours.

[theopor_COD]

Sod it longer I think worse it will be.

Dead Townies
Vitamin - for Fircoal, Avinyl - against Gorckat, MoS

Thesp - for Gorckat - against Fircoal, slightly against MoS

I can see an MoS/Gorckat partnership, Fircoal and Avinyl seems less likely, Gorckat/Avinyl even more so but still I guess possible.
Mind if Soel/MoS was scum why didn't he hammer me when he had the chance mind same argument applies to Avinyl, I wasn't half playing scummy so he could have hammered and escaped a lynch I think.
My main argument against Fircoal applies to Azkar/Gorckat.
Then we got Gorckat coming straight out accusing Fircoal off scum, why investigate Fircoal and then Avinyl counterclaims, for some reason I don't understand why both "supposed" cops would investigate Fircoal, Gorckat's second investigation is pretty convienent I'd have liked him to have investigated me or MoS. Avinyl's makes sense in a way mind if he's scum he knows everyone's alignment.
As for Vitamin's killing - I can see arguments for both Gorckat and Fircoal ordering the hit, mind I think as a newb Fircoal would prefer someone who thought he was town still alive. Gorckat if he's with MoS would probably have to had made the hit on his own and I reckon prob thought of Vitamin as the biggest threat, which probably answers why when he first appeared he attacked VR straight off.

I do hope I don't regret this . . .

Vote Gorckat

And if he's mafia which I'm 80% on (good enough I think, the longer I think the more I'll change my mind) then MoS is his partner.

If I'm wrong apologies to the town and well played scum, fingers crossed eh.

[theopor_COD]

I'm not leaping around like a crazed fool . . . yet.

[theopor_COD]

Ha this should be fun. At least I was right yesterday.

[theopor_COD]

And if he's mafia which I'm 80% on (good enough I think, the longer I think the more I'll change my mind) then MoS is his partner.

I cannot see Avinyl counter-claiming Gorckat as scum partner. I'm pretty certain MoS/Soel is the other scum. As such . . .

Vote Mastermind of Sin

Talking is overrated.

[theopor_COD]

Great stuff

Yeh Vitamin your posts pretty much convinced me Gorckat and MoS were the scum partners so big woo hoo to you, took me for ages to decide mind. Gorckat's play coming out with the Cop was pretty darn clever and I was slightly concerned with MoS's theory that Avinyl was also scum but it was pretty much a small thought, still can't believe Soel didn't hammer me earlier when my play to be fair sucked, glad I had the chance to turn it around and big ups to Avinyl and Fircoal, well played to all even the scum replacements, top game, top result.

[theopor_COD]

And before I forget thanks MeMe.

[theopor_COD]

At times my head and heart were both telling me different things, your scum or Avinyl was the only thing that really remained constant was the voice from the dead's opinions on things. So really VR was the key factor in things.

[theopor_COD]

theopor, you just wait. If I'm ever scum in a game with you again, I'm going to make sure that my scum group counterclaims itself because I now know that you don't find it plausible

=D

I'll be looking out for it now