Newbie 310: It's All Over -- WOO-HOO!

[VitaminR]

Are you confused about what happened here? Because bearing in mind the chronology of what happened, your comments make no sense.

What theopor quoted was much later into the game in my head, for some reason.

I'll clarify.

Seol, what do you think of theopor_COD?

I'd like to hear this too.

This was quite early on and it was because Seol had only commented on one aspect of the Azkar wagon, his suspicions of me.

Seol: he only focused on me and I felt he was avoiding your wagon. Also, from his earlier comment about you (which I will quote below this) I thought he saw you in the same way and I wanted to see if he would stick to that. I find the fact that he hasn't pretty scummy.

This one refers to asking for your opinion on other players after the debate.

[Avinyl]

Well discounting Thesp, it would be Seol,

Aviynl

, and Vitamin R. These are what I think are the possible scum combos.

VitaminR/

Aviynl

Seol/

Aviynl

Seol/ Azkar

Seol are in 2, and so is

Aviynl

, Thesp could be added to Seol, or

Aviynl

to make another combo. So I think that the most likely scum pair is

Aviynl

and Seol.

That is my name misspelled

six times!

After rereading, i am even more confused than before.
Azkar - Hasn't posted in a while, I don't know what to think about him
Fircoal - Doesn't feel very suspicious.
Seol - Somehow, he feels more like a machine than a human. I don't know how to describe it.
Theopor_COD - He feels suspicious. A few page ago, he reacted very strongly to me saying i wanted to vote him, but he does not seem as suspicious as before.
Thesp - Don't know what to think.
VitaminR - He still feels suspicious.

My suspicion list right now is:
VitaminR
theopor_COD
-Gap-
Seol
Fircoal
Thesp
Azkar
-Huge Gap-
Myself

[Azkar]

I'm here, I'm here. Sorry, folks, long weekend here. I thought I'd be around more than I was. That and the e-mail notifications don't seem to be going through at the moment

First, theopor's defence. It's compelling, I admit. My opinion of him has improved over what it was, previously. That said, I don't think it completely exonerates him. It comes off a little dramatic. "Oh please,

please

, don't lynch poor naive meee." We can all agree he hasn't played this game as well as he could have. But is he poor town or poor scum? I still think the early plays line up more with poor scum play. The latest round of pleas come off as a little desperate.

---

Next, VR's starting to worry me, some. His attack on Seol for (apparently) not restating his position at the conclusion of their debate comes off as a little contrived. I think Seol made his position fairly clear, and it doesn't reflect well on VR to try and indicate otherwise.

Azkar has avoided the Seol/me debate.

Well the Azkar wagon could of been seen as either way, and the debate was not understandible by me and Theopor, so maybe Azkar didn't understand it either.

No, he did. He commented on it. He didn't take a stand, though.

Just to address this ...

Yes, I understood the gist of what was going on. Some of it went over my head, and that's why I took as much time as I did before commenting on it at all. And, no, I didn't take a firm stand. I had mixed feelings about the exchange, which I tried to convey. I'm not going to sit here and pretend to take a definitive position when I don't know exactly where I stand.

I'm still fairly fixated on theopor_COD, and I'm a little surprised at the lack of claim from him after essentially being told to do so (rightly, I think) by Seol.

Theopor is at 2 now (Fircoal unvoted), I don't think he need claim.

Also, he forced a claim from theopor on a third vote when there has been no indication of anyone wanting to put on a fourth vote. This allows someone who normally wouldn't have theopor to go "ah well, at worst he's a townie" and hammer him.

Also, (and I'm adding this as I eat breakfast) Seol really had no right to ask for a claim. Thesp is still in need of a re-read and he could, for instance, realistically switch to Seol.

All this focus on Seol's request for a claim seems odd. Theopor had been at lynch -1 for quite a while, with two others willing to vote if it wouldn't cause a lynch. I don't think it was unreasonable to ask for a claim. Fircoal's unvoted, but that's irrelevant to the request for claim, since the unvote was

after

theopor's non-claim.

I'm not seeing the difference. I ignored the wagon (along with the rest of the game - not that that's justifiable, just trying to put it in context), which therefore links me and Azkar. Thesp, who actually was here, was ignoring the wagon, and it's a sign they're not linked... except that if Azkar is scum, it's a black mark against Thesp (i.e., it's a sign they're linked... if it suits you).

There's a big difference. You avoided the wagon, you didn't ignore it at all (you commented on it quite definitively when did you post).

I'm afraid I really don't understand the distinction you're trying to draw, here. I'd think ignoring the wagon

completely

would be a more suspicious act than at least acknowledging it, if maybe a little late.

---

I'd really like to see a meatier post from Avinyl. I don't have much to go on, with him. He lurks a lot, and posts little pot shots, here and there. There doesn't seem to be a lot to back up his shots, though.

---

I think that's all I meant to comment on. I find theo slightly less suspicious, and VR slightly more. Most of the other players I have a hard time getting a read on. Seol's a very good debater. He's probably either being very helpful or very unhelpful.

I don't think my positions have changed enough for me to change my vote right.

[theopor_COD]

Seol's a very good debater. He's probably either being very helpful or very unhelpful.

Seol - Somehow, he feels more like a machine than a human. I don't know how to describe it.

I think that sums up Soel perfectly, he's damn good town or scum! Mind VR isn't far behind, one of them is very good at lieing.

[MeMe]

Vote Count

:

theopor_COD

(3):

Thesp, Azkar, Seol

Seol

(2):

VitaminR, Fircoal

VitaminR

(1):

Avinyl

not voting

(1):

theopor_COD

Four brings the night.

[VitaminR]

Next, VR's starting to worry me, some. His attack on Seol for (apparently) not restating his position at the conclusion of their debate comes off as a little contrived. I think Seol made his position fairly clear, and it doesn't reflect well on VR to try and indicate otherwise.

It came across that way to me. It's a part of trying to explain why the fact that he seemed so focused on me seemed scummy. It's getting a lot more attention than it deserves, really.

It's mostly that I feel compelled to respond to every part of a post (lest I leave anything unrefuted) that some things get pulled to the forefront that shouldn't be. A lot of the back and forth between Seol and me is essentially fluff.

All this focus on Seol's request for a claim seems odd. Theopor had been at lynch -1 for quite a while, with two others willing to vote if it wouldn't cause a lynch. I don't think it was unreasonable to ask for a claim. Fircoal's unvoted, but that's irrelevant to the request for claim, since the unvote was

after

theopor's non-claim.

I don't think so. Half of those voters hadn't acknowledged theopor's defence and his defence made a visible difference to some players in the game.

If anything, Seol should have been a lot more cautious. As an IC and a player with a good reputation, he should know that a strong request for a claim from a newbie is not something to be taken lightly.

I'm afraid I really don't understand the distinction you're trying to draw, here. I'd think ignoring the wagon

completely

would be a more suspicious act than at least acknowledging it, if maybe a little late.

That's what I was arguing. It is so much more suspicious (if you are scum), that it makes Thesp and you an unlikely scum pair in my eyes.

Nothing really overtly scummy here, but Azkar's post and opinions are definitely in line with what I'd expect in the case of a Seol-Azkar scum pair.

[Azkar]

I don't think so. Half of those voters hadn't acknowledged theopor's defence and his defence made a visible difference to some players in the game.

But .. the request for claim was

before

his defence! Seol may be many things, but a prophet, I doubt. You're twisting things around. Seol made the request for claim at a point when there wasn't any reason to think anyone's position was going to change any time soon.

[VitaminR]

Seol's a very good debater. He's probably either being very helpful or very unhelpful.

Seol - Somehow, he feels more like a machine than a human. I don't know how to describe it.

I think that sums up Soel perfectly, he's damn good town or scum! Mind VR isn't far behind, one of them is very good at lieing.

Definitely, Seol's an awesome debater.

I re-read and Seol's request for a claim wasn't as strong as I thought it was. Doesn't change my point, but it seems only fair to mention it.

Also, Azkar, it is important to realise that none of the other voters were up to speed with the game. There was really not enough justification to ask for a claim.

I'm stressing it because I'm worried theopor will get lynched because there's not a lot of risk involved. I don't want to see another easy newbie lynch that, in my opinion, really isn't justified.

I forget to comment on one thing in Seol's posts earlier.

VitaminR is not far off level with theopor.

This seems incredibly scummy to me. The fact that we're almost level in his eyes means he can switch rather freely.

I think it is also important to stress the difference between this and, for example, my Seol-Azkar suspicions. What I'm doing is incredibly limiting. If Seol or Azkar turns up town or one of the other plays turns out to be scum, the foundation of all my reasoning collapses.

For something like this, it doesn't matter if theopor turns up town or I turn up town. He can continue to push for the other. They're separately justified. It's low risk and high reward for scum.

I also find the fact that Seol hasn't addressed the interaction between theopor and me at all very interesting. He's not looking at a scum pair, but at lynching individual players. (Incidentally another, albeit small, reason why Fircoal is pro-town, he has.)

[VitaminR]

I don't think so. Half of those voters hadn't acknowledged theopor's defence and his defence made a visible difference to some players in the game.

But .. the request for claim was

before

his defence! Seol may be many things, but a prophet, I doubt. You're twisting things around. Seol made the request for claim at a point when there wasn't any reason to think anyone's position was going to change any time soon.

I was and have been referring to Seol's second request for a claim. The one that led to a claim.

The fact that Seol, after theopor posted a defence after the first request that led to an unvote,

just repeated the request

, despite not having heard from Avinyl or you, only makes it worse.

[Fircoal]

WOW, tons of posts, this is getting good. Suspisions being thrown around. I argee that Seol and VitaminR are either good town, or good scum. I think we should lynch one of them, because it will give us more hints on the case.

Sorry, Avinyl for spelling for name wrong.

[Azkar]

Also, Azkar, it is important to realise that none of the other voters were up to speed with the game. There was really not enough justification to ask for a claim.

I don't know .. I wouldn't have said there was much to get up to speed on, at that point. There was a lot of back-and-forth between you and Seol, but it wasn't really anything new.

I was and have been referring to Seol's second request for a claim. The one that led to a claim.

The fact that Seol, after theopor posted a defence after the first request that led to an unvote, just repeated the request, despite not having heard from Avinyl or you, only makes it worse.

Hm. I must've missed Seol's second request .. or if I did see it, I didn't think very much of it. I don't entirely blame him, though, for still wanting a claim. Here's how I see the situation (and I know you'll disagree on the first point):

Theopor was in a situation where just about everyone in the game found him very suspicious. It's a point in the game where it's generally considered appropriate and neccessary to claim. He was

told

by one of the players that it would be a good time to claim. Instead, though, he deliberately avoided claiming. It makes it look like he's got something to hide.

That said .. I think you're blowing the claim thing out of proportion. From the games I've read, it's not at all abnormal to ask for a claim in the situation theopor was in. Nor were Seol's requests particularly urgent: "I think a claim is probably in order," and "I still think a claim is appropriate." No, "You need to claim, now," or "Claim now, or someone is going to lynch you," etc.

It's a pattern I'm seeing in your attacks on Seol, picking at small things, and twisting them out of proportion.

[Avinyl]

Fircoal, you are forgiven.

[Fircoal]

Azkar, what do you think of Avinyl, and Thesp?

[Azkar]

Azkar, what do you think of Avinyl, and Thesp?

Avinyl needs to post something with more substance. His posts and attacks feel really weak, because he doesn't offer anything to back them up. It could be a sign of lurking scum, or it could just be that he's not a very talkative person. It would set my mind at ease, though, if he gave us a nice meaty post.

Thesp doesn't really raise any alarms for me. What he's posted has been fairly logical, and good. Still, it would be nice to hear more out of him .

[Fircoal]

Azkar, what do you think of Avinyl, and Thesp?

Avinyl needs to post something with more substance. His posts and attacks feel really weak, because he doesn't offer anything to back them up. It could be a sign of lurking scum, or it could just be that he's not a very talkative person. It would set my mind at ease, though, if he gave us a nice meaty post.

Thesp doesn't really raise any alarms for me. What he's posted has been fairly logical, and good. Still, it would be nice to hear more out of him .

I agree with your points. Can you give a scum list. Scummiest first.

[Avinyl]

I know i don't post very much, i read the game but i just can't come up with anything to say. As i have said before, i suspect theodor_COD and VitaminR. This is mostly based on feeling, and now theodor_COD doesn't feel as much scummy as VitaminR.

[Azkar]

I agree with your points. Can you give a scum list. Scummiest first.

theopor_COD. I don't fully buy his defence post. I'm open to hearing more from him, though.
VitaminR. His recent line of attacks ring false with me. They come across as nit-picky and contrived.
Seol. Generally helpful, but I don't know how far I can trust him. Some of his earlier reasonings against VR came across as fairly weak.
Avinyl. Quiet. Still waters run deep?
Thesp. Generally helpful, generally logical. A little bit lurky.
Fircoal. Not really feeling much scum-factor from you.

[Fircoal]

Hmmm, seems a lot like mine, I think I need a scum list from Thesp, as he's the only one who hasn't gaven one.

[VitaminR]

Theopor was in a situation where just about everyone in the game found him very suspicious. It's a point in the game where it's generally considered appropriate and neccessary to claim. He was

told

by one of the players that it would be a good time to claim. Instead, though, he deliberately avoided claiming. It makes it look like he's got something to hide.

That said .. I think you're blowing the claim thing out of proportion. From the games I've read, it's not at all abnormal to ask for a claim in the situation theopor was in. Nor were Seol's requests particularly urgent: "I think a claim is probably in order," and "I still think a claim is appropriate." No, "You need to claim, now," or "Claim now, or someone is going to lynch you," etc.

What I'm used to this is giving the player a final chance to defend themselves. That is how I see this situation. Theopor does some scummy things, people vote him and then you get to a point where he has to make his big defence. If that doesn't convince anyone, he claims.

I have acknowledged that his requests weren't particularly urgent, but they definitely implied a way of seeing the game (not waiting for you or Avinyl, ignoring theopor's defence because it is not a stellar display of logic, based in honesty) that I don't agree with and that I honestly find scummy.

It's a pattern I'm seeing in your attacks on Seol, picking at small things, and twisting them out of proportion.

I could very well be attaching undue importance to some things. When you see someone as scum, everything they do becomes scummy.

I don't think that's predominantly the case, though. I don't think I've grossly misrepresented Seol's actions. If you don't agree with me, that's okay, I don't expect you to, but there is a difference between that and your characterisation of my attacks.

Azkar, I've noticed you're basically doing Seol's end of the defending. I also find it fairly unsurprising that I'm high on your list of suspects. In fact, judging by your recent list, you should pretty much be voting me.

[VitaminR]

I don't know .. I wouldn't have said there was much to get up to speed on, at that point. There was a lot of back-and-forth between you and Seol, but it wasn't really anything new.

I don't see how you can say that. It was enough for Fircoal to unvote. Also, it was a couple of pages. That is essentially half the game.

[Azkar]

Azkar, I've noticed you're basically doing Seol's end of the defending.

Well, I'm trying to point out how your recent actions have come across to me. I can't really do that without bringing them up, and since the lion's share of your recent actions have been attacks towards Seol ...

I also find it fairly unsurprising that I'm high on your list of suspects. In fact, judging by your recent list, you should pretty much be voting me.

I've thought about it, yes, but I'm not really ready to change votes. You did build up a lot of goodwill, earlier in the game, and it's really the recent activity that's been bothering me. That, and I don't know how far I'm willing to trust Seol, at the moment.

[theopor_COD]

What I'm looking at is partnerships. I can't actually see one with Vitamin, he stands out in that respect. The only person I can see as slightly having offered any defence of Vitamin is Thesp -

I don't buy the VitaminR wagon at all. I'm also a little surprised at you, Seol, for seemingly trying to equivocate likelihoods to the firmness of logic. The argument isn't that someone is necessarily scum under the "doth protest too much" tell, it's that scum are more likely to exhibit that behavior. It appears that VitaminR does not think scum are significantly more likely to exhibit that behavior. It looks like a mountain out of a molehill there to me. The lack of an unvote is unusual to me as well, after "it does resolve the sticking-point I had".

FOS: Seol.

Hmm. I'm still fairly fixated on theopor_COD, and I'm a little surprised at the lack of claim from him after essentially being told to do so (rightly, I think) by Seol. I don't agree with the VitaminR hate at all.

Where as with Soel I can see links with Azkar, Avinyl and Thesp to some extent.

[Fircoal]

I too, can see a Thesp VitaminR partnership. Seol and Avinyl have many possibilities for scum pairs.

[Azkar]

I don't know .. I wouldn't have said there was much to get up to speed on, at that point. There was a lot of back-and-forth between you and Seol, but it wasn't really anything new.

I don't see how you can say that. It was enough for Fircoal to unvote. Also, it was a couple of pages. That is essentially half the game.

Sorry, I think we were talking about different stages of the game, again. I thought you were talking about the first request, since you had said, "There was really not enough justification to ask for a claim." The second time around, the request was already been out there, so I didn't think that statement applied .. .

[VitaminR]

Azkar, I've noticed you're basically doing Seol's end of the defending.

Well, I'm trying to point out how your recent actions have come across to me. I can't really do that without bringing them up, and since the lion's share of your recent actions have been attacks towards Seol ...

Fair enough.

You do seem to pick his side in every single detail of it, though. You seem to disagree with me completely on all of it.