Policy Discussion: Newbie Games

[Thok]

IC can play in two newbie games at a time if there is a shortage of IC.

[Patrick]

IC can play in any number of newbie games can't they?

[IH]

@Emptyger-I'm pretty sure they got a lot of fruitful information from that game. The scum did a good job manipulating the town into arguing with each other, resulting in my lynch.

= \ Vizzini was what did it, and me not understanding him properly. When I figured out what he was staying, I tried to back away, and actually found a scum.

I thought that in itself was a strong lesson. Don't just mindlessly listen to somebody. Look at the reactions closer and such. That's what these newbie games are really about. Experience. Sure you can just give them a guide and some older games to read, but if it's not put into practice, then it means nothing.

I myself know that before my first mafia game, newbie 277, my thought process was way different. I can remember obsessing over it, playing through scenarios over and over. Spending forever on my first PBP.

I most definitely wouldn't have learned as much without the ICs, and probably woulda coasted along, like I did at first. Nobody really noticed until MBL and SV called me out on it, just following people.

(P.S. I still consider that Bogre lynch was appropriate ^_^)

Also, I felt the need to respond to this.

One problem I see with ICs being in the game is the scum ICs misleading newbie town. If we get 2:5 and both ICs are scums, then for example they may persuade the town into no lynch on the first day. Whilst haing three ICs might solve this to some extent, it's not foolproof. The town IC maybe ridiculed in the face of two more experienced IC scums.

I personally feel that that is dirty and underhanded. Why play a game you know is an easy win? Not only that, it would defeat the purpose of the game. LEARNING.

[Mr. Flay]

I'd be willing to bet that any C9 game is going to have at least one newbie who has either played before or read games/the wiki, and knows that not lynching on D1 is a bad idea. I've never seen more than one player support it in any given game, actually.

I would never want to

forbid

ICs from playing Newbie Games, for the record. I actually enjoy them, at least one at a time (if I play more than one, my attention wanders and I'm not as good an experienced hand).

[IH]

I would also like to note that I can split the newbies I've played into two categories.

Players analysing everything with extremely long and productive posts (usually, even if they're not right)

or

Lurker fests with all players particiapting in the lurking because 'there's nothing else to say LAWL'

[Raffles]

What does everyone think of bringing modding requirements down to equal requirement with mini normal?

[JDodge]

What does everyone think of bringing modding requirements down to equal requirement with mini normal?

I'd have to disagree with that. You don't want a new mod screwing things up in a newbie game.

[Raffles]

Same could be said for mini game.

[JDodge]

Same could be said for mini game.

A newbie game moreso, because the general impression that I got is that you should play a newbie game before you move up to a mini.

[Mr. Flay]

A Newbie Game is by far the most likely place for a raw newbie to show up for their first game in MafiaScum.net. Many will jump into Mini Games or Theme Games if they've heard about the game from a friend or something, but our first-timers seem to do a remarkably good job of finding the NG Queue.

If the moderator screws up that game, it's likely that the player will leave the "premier place for playing online Mafia" and never come back. Contrast this with an individual player screwing up (346 comes to mind most recently), where the mod and other players could show that it was a one-off screwup by an equally new player. Much less damage done in that case, so no, I don't think we'll be lowering the requirements. One Mini game and one Open Game is not too much to ask, I don't think, and doesn't take much longer than just one game, if run concurrently.

[Raffles]

Isn't with less players and bare bones roles, shorter game time, a newbie game a easier game to run?

There is a ma-houussive mod queue in mini normal. There is no queue for newbie. This is because mini normal is the only gateway for the new mods, creating a bottle-neck. Surely this resource can be put to a better use?

[Mr Stoofer]

It's not the difficulty of the game that gives rise to the requirement.

Not everyone is good at/capable of modding. Newbies are our future. We should not entrust these precious items to people who have not proved that they are capable mods.

[Mr. Flay]

Open Games are a mod queue open to new players as well, Raffles. And as Stoofer says, it's not about the simplicity of the games in TRTR (although even still, people can't seem to get the randomization right on Cop/Doc distribution).

[Mr. Flay]

More food for thought:

Is there any way of giving priority in this queue to say newbies who will be playing their first game? I'm seeing some newbies who die, and immediately sign up for another one.

Technically speaking, it wouldn't be much more difficult than how things are run now. On the one hand, yes it would get our new-newbies into a game somewhat sooner (maybe as much as 50%). On the other hand, some of our players have done "one game that ended quickly/badly, or they got lynched D1" and barely have any more experience than the fresh meat. I wouldn't want to discourage them either.

What do other people think? Any other thoughts on this thread? Sometime this week I hope to have a graph of the rate of NG starts... they're closing up on 400 games soon.

[spectrumvoid]

I really don't know.

If there's a limit on the newbie games an IC can play, I need someone to replace into like 5 games or something... so I really hope not.

Could we possibly put a page limit? There're some newbie games where people get lynched on page 2 or so. Hm... say we put a limit at 7 pages, and everyone who's dead before 7 pages can join the 'first time newbie' queue?

[Mr. Flay]

FYI: Norinel replied to the question and said that while he did implement a system like this for a time, it was more trouble than benefit overall.

So I probably won't be doing this, unless things get much worse than they have been, at which point we'll probably be looking at revamping how Newbie Games are handled anyway.

[Mr Stoofer]

Only just saw this. FWIW I strongly agree that there should not be a third category of "Very New Newbie" who gets priority over "Newish Newbies".

[spectrumvoid]

Ok.

*sigh* Oh the rapidly growing newbie queue...

[Mr Stoofer]

Nah, voidy, the long newbie queue is not a bad thing.

As Flaymeister has already said somewhere else, games on this site take so long, that anyone who can't wait a week or so in the Newbie queue is not going to be able to cope with games here anyway...

[JDodge]

As Flaymeister has already said somewhere else, games on this site take so long, that anyone who can't wait a week or so in the Newbie queue is not going to be able to cope with games here anyway...

You mean this?

I'd vote completed totally. Quality over quantity, y'know? And besides, if newbies aren't patient enough to wait in the queue, wouldn't they flee once they saw the pace of the game they get placed in?

[spectrumvoid]

[spectrumvoid]

This is a question on newbie modding.

I'm pretty strict about inactivity in newbies, because it's a small 7-p game, and having 1 person away will really drag the game.

I have one player who has repeatedly picked up his prod and not posted. I had one player like this before, but claimed it was his playstyle. I am thinking of having this player replaced. Am I wrong to disallow lurking as a playstyle in newbies?

[Kelly Chen]

This guy isn't even claiming it's his playstyle right? He's just ignoring you. Replace him yeah?

edit: Oh yeah, I don't think it's wrong to disallow not playing as a tactic in a newbie game.

[Yosarian2]

Agreed. Lurking is not a "playstyle".

[Mr. Flay]

I give any player an option to PM me and explicitly

tell me

they are lurking when I prod them. While it's bad town play, I disagree with Yos; it's valid scum playstyle and it's

not my job

as moderator to catch lurkers, only those who have vanished. However if a player picks up more than one prod in a row without responding in thread or by PM, then I usually replace them after about a week. If I get too many lurkers, that's a deadline criterion.

I have a sneaking suspicion there's some sort of error wherein people

receive

the PM because they sign in by clicking 'Log in to view your private messages', and then never read it, but I can't prove it yet.