Mini 436 - Game over - Mafia wins with no casualties!

[VanDamien]

Second vote isn't too good either.

Not an OMGUS

Vote: ryan

because the University of Iowa screwed me over in '93.

[VanDamien]

LOL, what did they do?

Offered what should have been a full ride, then changed their mind on my residence status a month into the semester, with no more money to pay for the tripled tuition. I could have gone elsewhere and had a plan in place to pay for it, had, in fact , been offered more at other schools. As it was, I had to withdraw, not being able to afford the extra four thousand.

3. Cause I have no idea what the ---- his avatar is.

It's Friend Computer, of course.

[VanDamien]

Well, Well, a random wagon for absolutely no reason!

There's nothing to defend, as I haven't done anything even slightly scummy. What do you five hope to gain by running up the votes on a townie? Hunting for a power role, maybe?

[VanDamien]

I'm aware of how the dame is played on Day One starts, thanks!

In particular, those jumping on the wagon, would you like my claim, or would you like me to overreact? I see no reason for either at this time.

[VanDamien]

VanDamien: As talked an awful lot about a bandwagon forming, although at least two people (including myself) voted him random and have just left the vote that way. I just don't feel comfortable switching unless I'm sure, trying to stay away from his "bandwagon theory I guess"

Only your vote was truly random, and the other three either specifically mentioned or alluded in their posts that they were bandwaggoning.

Never.

Vote: VanDamian

Second vote isn't too bad.

Vote: VanDamien

3 excellent reasons I got here:

1. posted just before me

2. already has some votes on him

3. Cause I have no idea what the ---- his avatar is.

That is all.

Vote: VanDamien,

lets get this bandwagon rolling!

So perhaps it becomes more clear when all I have to say about the wagon is asking what those on it hope to get out of it. Miztef has answered, Rampage QFT'd what others not invovled had said, you said random wagons don't happen all that often - which would get you my vote right now if yours wasn't the only one truly random, and SC hasn't posted since.

I do have a slight reactino to this:

- There is nothing about Rampage that is very scummy, so stop trying to make a bandwagon on him. ok? ok.

What about this?

KILL KILL KILL! MURDER MURDER MURDER!

Oops I thought I was pming this to my scumates :s

Seems like he was trying to make a joke, sure, but that's an odd joke for a townie to make. Even on page one.

However, Snichkin's point:

In Newbie 335 (If I remmember right), I changed my vote oftenly and then voted someone for long time. StallingChamp and Rosso Carne saw this tactic as a scumy one and lynched me (I was the doc). So I'm trying to prove that it wasn't scumy at all

Well, if he's trying to make that point, I'd expect a vote switch by now, and it seems a silly cover.

Unvote Vote: Snichkin

[VanDamien]

He also thought that I would change my vote since I mentioned I suspected Snichkin.

Where did I say this?

[VanDamien]

I've taken a good, long look around the inside of my skull, Albert, and it seems you're not in there. When you make a statement that presents itself in a factual way, please ensure it has some basis in fact.

Furthermore, you said this:

This is probably a ploy to create a bandwagon on this person. Expect his mafia allies to put their vote and hammer this dude.

And then

you

put your vote on Snichkin, after two others had. Since I'm not scum, you can't be my scumbuddy; but perhaps you're admitting to being someone's?

[VanDamien]

Miztef and Ryan are townies.

FoS:Snichkin

With all the strange posts by Albert, this one is, to me, perhaps the weirdest by far. Unless both Miztef and ryan want to claim being masoned to Albert, then there is absolutely no way he knows this for sure unless he's scum. If it's a scum move to try and clear his buddies, ugh. If it's a scum move to try and put suspicion that two townies are scum when he's gone, it's too obvious. That, along with the "this is useless now." Line convince me to

Unvote Vote: Albert B. Rampage

.

[VanDamien]

Nah, I'm tired. No explanation until day 2 for you.

Is this some attempt to stop a lynch on you because we're supposed to be oh so curious on what the explanation is?

[VanDamien]

Oh in so many ways, you're hurting us if you're pro-town. Which I am beginning to doubt more and more.

Beyond that being a pretty rare role to hand out, in any sort of set-up, in a plain mini it seems even less likely. Furthermore, if it is as the wiki, that you directed to, says; then it won't be your choice, it'll be DeathSauce to go along with you. Furthermore, that claim doesn't jive with you "just trying to make a point" stance either, nor with your claim tha this game is just an experiment for you and you do not care whether you live or die.

[VanDamien]

If that role is in this game, it is the most abhorrent, broken, anti-town role I have ever heard of. There's twelve of us, right? So the ratio is most likely 9:3. With a lynch of that role, there's absolutely the potential to be at 5:3 at the start of day 2, and that's without a SK. I simply do not believe it. I'll

unvote

, and wait for the votes to pile on. I am convinced enough to do the hammering on this one.

[VanDamien]

VanDamien: Are you saying if Albert has votes piled on him and needs one to lynch you'd do it?

Yes, I am saying I'll do it.

[VanDamien]

I didn't semi-claim a power role. In fact, I'm completely vanilla, which is why I am very willing to hammer you in the chance that you are telling the truth. I wouldn't be a big loss comparitively.

The way I see it is pretty simple: if anyone thinks Albert is telling the truth and I'm scum, put him at -1 and I'll hammer immediately. If you don't believe Albert's role or towniness, put him at -1 and I'll hammer immediately.

[VanDamien]

Guys:

*****Ryan and VanDamien*****

Let's get this over with please. Vig me if I'm wrong.

Simpler answer, which again goes against your claim. If you're so sure of Ryan and me, you'd be calling for your own lynch, and you'd be able to take us both out at once, instead of needing to be vigged at night and dead anyway. Let me be clear to those who have missed it. I DO NOT believe that claim one bit, I WILL hammer his lynch, in case he's actually telling the truth, and I'm plain vanilla, so in that case I won't be a huge loss.

[VanDamien]

I am offering myself to potentially die to help us out, and you think I'm scum? I am not struggling. I want you lynched, period. There are three possible outcomes:

1. You're lying, and are scum: I see this as most likely
2. You're telling the truth: Then I die, and maybe you can catch a scum on your way out; either way whoever's left can get back to hunting scum without some starnge role that doesn't belong in a normal game, IMO.
3. You're lying, but still town: then you're awful town, and I'll be lynched tomorrow. I've already claimed vanilla; there's nothing more to be said there.

2 out of 3 options leave me dead, the only one where I continue is if you're lying, and in that case all we have to do is find your scumbuddies.

But you're right: no more running, no more hiding: I want you lynched, period.

[VanDamien]

Crossposter.

Accepted; get yourself lynched, and kill me on your way out: it'll be very clear at that point.

[VanDamien]

The thing is, VanDamien, if you don't get lynched today, you have a chance of getting away.

If I don't get lynched today, I have 0% chance of getting away the next.


Do you understand this ??

How? I thought I would die as soon as I hammer you?

[VanDamien]

Rampage is saying that he wants you just plain old lynched. He is certain you are scum, yes, but he doesn't want his power to be used on you because it would kill another player, who may not be scum.

That's not what he said, at all, and certainly wasn't the conversation.

Accepted; get yourself lynched, and kill me on your way out: it'll be very clear at that point.

t"]No, get YOURSELF lynched, so I will be proven wrong very quickly.

The thing is, VanDamien, if you don't get lynched today, you have a chance of getting away.

If I don't get lynched today, I have 0% chance of getting away the next.

Do you understand this ??

Vollkan gets it; there is no way I get away if Albert is telling the truth. I'm convinced he's lying scum.

Yeah, truth be told, I took some time off and VD might just as well be town. He might be angry because of another game where I had his head on the chopping block, so that is incentive enough to want me dead here.

Nope, I'm perfectly able to keep my games seperate. No anger here, it's just a game.

[VanDamien]

In that situation, I will be dead, lol.

To be frank, I'm not worrying over it either way.

And also, I'd like to say, perhaps(likely even?) he is an anti-town power role
After all he is immediately against the first people to threaten him. Why is he so sure I'm worth killing? Maybe because he knows who are scum and who are town and was just waiting for someone protown to make him an excuse.

In that case some of the people who strongly supported his claim could be mafia(i'd guess 2, with the power role in the place of a 3rd)

but that's even IF he's a power role, I'm just stating it now in case I get killed

OK, so the two people who will die on the off chance Albert is telling the truth are ready to accept their fates; I expect to start seeing some votes.

[VanDamien]

Lynching ABR day two is worse, not better. MUCH MUCH worse.

Let's theorize for a minute, shall we?

Say the balance right now is 9:3, which seems fairly possible in a game this size. We lynch someone today, we're either 8:3 or 9:2, then with a kill N1, we enter day 2 either 7:3 or 8:2, no follow along.

IF ABR is telling the truth, scum will not hammer in either case, and it's entirely possible he miskills with his extra kill, so with a truth telling ABR, a townie hammering, ABR mishitting with his "extra" kill, and scum NKing, they win, period, N2 if today is a mislynch of someone other than a truth telling ABR.

But, since he's lying, it doesn't matter, we neeed to lynch him today.

As to the playstyle thing, from what I've seen of ABR in other games I will not mention, his style here isn't much different from the others. Maybe he has received this brand new role in more than one game?

[VanDamien]

For one, for seeing your post 20 almost word for word elsewhere.

[VanDamien]

That is a lie. Also, referring to all the other game in which you are also suspecting me does nothing to add to your credibility.

We are both targeting each other in every game, it seems...

Yes, we are in a lot of games together, but no, I was referring to one where we are not going after each other.

Regardless, this meta information is valid. Albert is not posting like he is here because of the role, but it seems to be his style, from what I've seen.

[VanDamien]

THE OBVIOUS:
We currently have 12 players.

THE ASSUMPTION:
1) We have 3 Mafia, since to have more would overbalance the game in favor of scum.

2) ABR is telling the truth and he's pro-town, will take out the hammah and one person of his choosing that night.

Starting with a Town:Mafia Ratio of 9:3 right now.
Should we lynch ABR today, that would bring us down to 8:3, minus the hammah and the Poster Of His Choosing.
If both of them are town, that already gets us to 6:3, with a single Mafia NK of a townie, means we start Day 2 at 5:3, which puts us in LYLO.

(Granted, if ABR selects well, or the mafia have a sudden Attack Of the Stupids, and therefore one hammers, or both, then we're doing much better, but this is Worst Case.)

OK, let's say we wait till tomorrow to lynch him, then.
We lynch someone --oops, it was a townie because this is Worst Case -- and we start the Night at 8:3.
Mafia NK; we start Day 2 at 7:3.
Lynch ABR, he takes out the hammering townie and chooses poorly for his NK target. 4:3. Still in LYLO, but LYLO is now Day 3

I tried presenting this reasoning earlier, but yours is much clearer, except you forgot something at the end. We start day 2 at 7:3. Lynch ABR, he takes out hammering townie and chooses poorly for his NK, we're at 4:3. THEN, the mafia kill also, and we're at 3:3 and have lost. Not LYLO Day 3, because there is no day 3. Here's my quandry: not lynching him ever has it's benefits, true; but if he's confirmed as scum as I believe he will be, then two more suspects move to the forefront pretty strongly.

[VanDamien]

I must say I'm quite satisfied of the turn of events, although if Poison Ivy, Hurri and Tophat turn to the Lynch Albert Today Camp, we will be tied 6-6.

Tophat mentioned something about not lynching me today, but has disappeared since.
Hurri has not contributed to the game in any way yet, much like Poison Ivy.

You're satisfied some people have chosen to follow your lies along with your scumbuddies? Holy crap, thanks for admitting it.

As for scum pushing the wagon, I know I'm vanilla and will be confirmed as such if ABR is actually not lying, and I feel pretty good about para for the same reason. It just wouldn't make sense for any scum to sacrfice themselves on Day one to get one townie. Ryan I can't say either way at this point.

What I find more likely is that there is scum on the hold off on Albert wagon. This is why: either 1)they know he's with them and saw the wind of change and opportunity to keep him alive, or 2)They know he's telling the truth, and are counting on the town to want to lynch him Day 2, effectivly giving them two free kills.

The way I see it, either we get scum with ABR, or the reactions following his claim give a pretty good indication of who to go after next, and either way, ABR needs to be lynched, today. Nobody else's lynch will give us as much information to go on day 2.

[VanDamien]

Ok VanDamien, while I don't disagree with your post I do wonder why you'd post some observations while you still don't have a vote out there. Waiting for your scum buddies to make their vote known before you go that direction? If you are vanilla as you claim, who has acted the most like scum?

I can't hammer if my votes already on him, which it was for a long time, and will be again to finish things off, I thought I had been fairly clear about that.

And Albert has acted the scummiest, of course.

[VanDamien]

Thing is, if we lynch him, we absolutely must do it when we have at least 6 more townies than we do scum. Otherwise, town loses IF he's telling the truth AND the lynch vote is a townie and ABR chooses a townie for his NK.

Well. Assuming the balance is 9:3 and ABR is telling the truth (for the purposes of argument):

If we lynch ABR AND the hammerer is town AND ABR NKs a town, and then the scum NK a town. Day 2 starts at 5:3. Loss.

If we don't lynch ABR and we lynch a scum and then scum NK a town. We start Day 2 at 8:2. If we lynch ABR AND the hammerer is town AND ABR NKs a town, and then the scum NK a town. Day 2 starts at 4:2. LYLO.

If we don't lynch ABR and we lynch a town, and then scum NK a town. We start Day 2 at 7:3. A lynch of any town player plus scum NKing a town will cause 5:3. Loss.

The second option is the worst case scenario if we lynch a scum today. It is lylo, not loss (as opposed to worse case today).

As DogMom and I have both stated before, 5:3 is LYLO, not a loss. We, well you guys, because I'd be dead in this worst case, just have to lynch correctly 3 tims in a row.

[VanDamien]

I must say I'm quite satisfied of the turn of events.

If I were you, I wouldnt be satisfied yet.

From what I've gathered, 3 people still want you dead, and from what I remember, thats not a good thing when you're playing mafia.

*obvious statement*

Which means you are still refusing to contribute. Popping in to ask for someone else to give you a summary and perhaps guide you into popular opinion, and further active lurking by posting again with as you call it, an obvious statement, seems very scummy to me.

I still don't believe Al, and hate that our cop could have to claim day 2 after only one investigation. I reiterate my willingness to hammer.

Until then

Vote: Hurrikaty

as its the next best lead.

[VanDamien]

Honestly VD and Tophat have been the two that have been very silent the past three pages after posting quite a bit in the first pages

I've been very clear in my position, and have had nothing further to add. In case you've missed it, primarily I'd like to lynch Albert, failing that, Katy unless I see something that convinces me that her recent posting has not been active lurking. PI needs a replacement, but there's no reactions there, nothing to go on for future days if that role is confirmed either way, so that's in the mod's hands for now.

Mod edit
Votecount:
Hurrikaty 4 (DeathSauce, VanDamien, DogMom, Albert B. Rampage)
Albert B. Rampage 2 (Paradoxombie, ryan)
Paradoxombie 1 (vollkan)
Poison Ivy 1 (Miztef)
StallingChamp 1 (Poison Ivy)
DeathSauce 1 (StallingChamp)

Not voting 2: Tophat, Hurrikaty

With 12 alive it takes 7 votes to lynch.

[VanDamien]

Odd, ryan, that being called out by SC was enough to make you change your vote.

vollkan: yes, 18 pages of pretty good info to analyze on D2; nothing contributory from our admitted lurker, I think it's time.

[VanDamien]

Yes, time for a reread, but I was right about one thing: Al was lying.

[VanDamien]

Okay, Snichken disappeared after being under some suspicion, and Poison Ivy hasn't posted (at all?) since replacing. Looking wayyyy back though, Snichken still reads pretty scummy to me, but it would be nice to get some contribution from that role.

I hope ABR learns from this experiment that acting like scum when you're town screws us over.

vollkan's desire for approval before hammering Katy bugs me a bit right now.

Twice in the closing moments of day one, SC seems to be coaching ryan.

Those are my thoughts for now.

[VanDamien]

Posts 421 & 425, 425 less so, but as it's the second time you quote him and try to bring out the vote, it reads a little differently, especially with Katy being town.

Why? You tell me. A slip, frustration, thought it was disguised?

[VanDamien]

@StallingChamp: I never noticed the part about communicating during the day outside the thread also; so that suspicion is hereby withdrawn. I don't think you're foolish enough to coach in thread when you could have PMed him to vote.

So, PI has been replaced, welcome TrustGossip! But dies this mean TopHat has picked up the prod and continues to lurk?

[VanDamien]

I don't think it's unreasonable to assume Albert was vigged, or NK'd by a Serial Killer who plans on claiming vig; either way his actions were completely anti-town, and as a doc no less; and so I'm trying to analyze this game with that in mind.

I just wanted a consensus, hence my post 427. I didn't want to rush it if people had a good reason not to. Miztef raised the issue of the suicidal role. I didn't think it was likely, but I wanted to wait to see if people felt otherwise.

Snitchkin, Tophat and PI really need to start posting.

Except, Miztef raised the suicidal role issue after 427. That was post 432. There was enough convinced that she was a good lynch to put her at -1, and you in 427 claim you feel the arguments are enough. Did you expect unanimity?

Furthermore, in 406 you begin with agreeing to drop your willingness to vote Katy if she posted something of subtance, but then agree with DeathSauce that even substance at this point probably wouldn't help.

I'm also beginning if your numbers in 340 weren't intentionally wrong to add to the confusion, as you recognize 4:2 is LYLO, but miss (twice) that 5:3 is also lylo, and not loss.

vote: vollkan

Mod edit
Votecount:
Vollkan 1 (VanDamien)

Not voting: the rest.

With 9 alive it takes 5 votes to lynch.

[VanDamien]

Some thoughts and observations:

It's LYLO, people(just in case anyone isn't observant enough to notice)

Actually, probably not. We're probably either 6:3 or 5:3:1. With two killing parties, neither is LYLO unless we lose two of us again on the next night.

From what I've seen meta, vollkan frequently overextends, but this is a little dodgy. I'm unsure whether you want to start a counterwagon, but I'm not going to join just yet. You bring up a good point. Perhaps a little too good. Have you ever suspected vollkan before, or is this just a spontaneous development?

Counterwagon? I wasn't aware of any other wagon in process. As an answer to your question, I'm suspicious of everyone, always. Recent rereads have cause me to become more suspicious of vollkan, and if I'm right about him, I have a fair inkling of who his partners are. That I'll keep to myself for now so as to not change their behavior, but if that time comes I think I can put forth fairly significant evidence.

@Vollkan: Perhaps it's playstyle, perhaps we think differently, but perhaps it's a scumtell. I don't understand someone confident in their towniness seeking approval for any action they take. The way I see it, enough people here had found Katy suspicious enough to put her at -1, we were on page 18 on day one, the case was moderate, strengthened greatly by her horrible defense and admitting to lurking. As everyone has to be responsible for their own actions, deliberately creating an "out" by seeking approval for those actions is scummy.

I am very suspicious of Van Damien. I don't like his reaction to ABR's death and he is pretty quick to vote here in a LYLO situation.

Again, most likely not LYLO. But more importantly, you don't like that I'm pissed that our DOC intentionally was acting scummy? He either got himself vigged because he was acting so scummy, or got NKed by scum (mafia or SK), for whatever reason. So, what? are you happy he's gone, and expecting me to do a little dance?

Furthermore, quick to vote? 3 RT days into day two, backed by a really strong feeling, plus my vote was the only vote at the time. With 5 needed, no one's in any danger from one vote. As stated before, I'm confident enough in my towniness to not wait around for someone else to lead me.

[VanDamien]

Mod: We'll need a replacement for StallingChamp

[VanDamien]

I'm here, but running out of time to post coherently this morning.

For now, even though post 518 pings,

unvote: vollkan

New vote coming tonight.

[VanDamien]

Explanation? Who ever said you get explanation with my new vote?

Paradoxombie and DeathSauce are scum; along with either vollkan or Trust, and I lean towards vollkan.

Miztef, ryan, TopHat, StallingChamp, and me are town, along with the one of Trust or vollkan who is not scum.

DeathSauce is gone for a few days, so he can wait.

vote: Paradoxombie

Much of this has been confirmed to me by what people have said. More is obvious to me by posting patterns. That is all for now.

[VanDamien]

A question to you then, Miztef.

More than likely there are three scum, who would you peg as the third?

Mod edit
Votecount:
Paradoxombie 2 (Miztef, VanDamien)
DeathSauce 1 (ryan)

Not voting: DeathSauce, TopHat, Paradoxombie, Trustgossip, StallingChamp, vollkan

With 9 alive it takes 5 votes to lynch.

[VanDamien]

What makes you so confident in Stalling and TopHat? I find I don't know enough to form an opinion on them?

With TopHat, I'll clarify. I don't think he's mafia-scum. He may be SK. The role needs replaced still, but I'd like to find the scum group at this point, and focus on them, to perhaps find out ho their buddies are. I agree, little information to go on, but I lean towards vig-tell in his last two posts.

With SC, one reason is that there were better ways to defend against my accusations of coaching ryan that pointing out scum's ability to talk day and night. Again, other than that it's a just a fairly good feeling at this point.

I agree with Trust about Para. Filtering the ABR situation through a polarizing lens, I see myself and Para pushing it primarily. I know I'm VT, and I feel it likely, and I'd be surprised that it isn't a common thought, that scum had to be helping push that. Especially if they thought they could not only get one townie lynched, but another taken out in the process.

[VanDamien]

The main difference being, by the time you started really pushing Al too, I had already put forward my offer to be the hammer on him, so on the off-hand he had been telling the truth, you had nothing to lose, and when he turned up town, like you as scum knew he would, you could point to his insanely anti-town play.

[VanDamien]

@Para: you didn't become his stated NK target until after you followed me in going after him, so no, at the time you pushed Al's lynch, you didn't have anything to lose.

That said, I'm surprised our scum has become so bold as to defend each other directly. I'm happy with a Para or DeathSauce lynch today.

[VanDamien]

who do you feel is the third scum partner?

vollkan

Here's my thing: an initial reread of day one got me thinking vollkan was scum, and as I pondered on that, and who his buddies could be if he is, I had an inkling that DeathSauce and Para were most likely. So, somewhat early in day 2, I vote vollkan. Almost immediately the other two jump either jump to his defense, or attack me. Vollkan's posting gets a little better as day 2 goes along, perhaps he realizes what has happened.

Anyway, now we get to a point where general consensus is narrowing down to either DeathSauce or Para, not just myself, Miztef, and you, but Trust seems to be leaning that way also. The other two are inactive, and our three scum have jumped on the chance to go on the attack.

[VanDamien]

No, I think now that we know ABR was not scum, it seems an easy wagon for scum to push since he was acting so damned scummy. I know that I'm VT, and you were the other one strongly on his case. If there was likely scum pushing his lynch, it must therefore be you.

[VanDamien]

I'd like VD to answer the questions I posed in 563 and 565.

I'll get to this, I promise, in the next few days. Other games, that have enough players to realistically move forward are draining my time.

We really need our replacements.

[VanDamien]

Okay, Para's two questions:

563: I actually was confusing you, but with Trust, not Miztef. I'm willing at this point to adjust my call and say that Trust is more likely with vollkan and Death.

565: Yes, ABR should have been lynched. Things as they are, it throws a lot of confusion on a potential SK/vig.

@DeathSauce: Read vollkan's 560. You must have, it's the post right above the one where I said that, and the summary(which is correct at the time it was written) proves my statement, at least among active players, and we're the only one's that count at this point.

unvote vote: DeathSauce

Mod: Any luck in the past week?

[VanDamien]

Apart from the scumhunting, I feel the need to address Miztef's actions.

That is extremely unethical by the standards of how the game is played around here. And while it's not in this ruleset, you'll find that very thing specifically mentioned in many others. Lawrencealot has confirmed that the omission is not intentional. Frankly, I put it up there with using invisitext - or worse, unallowed out of thread communication, because it is unlikely everyone will even notice it. And everyone has every right to all information given in the game, unless specific to their role (ie, scum communicating, cop results, etc.)

Furthermore, the "trap" is highly suspicious to me. If you think Death is scum, let logic prevail. If you think someone else is scum, build the case. Needing a "gotcha" moment to lay suspicion is awfully scummy. Like you're afraid someone will see through you. Like maybe you and ryan are actually scum together and are trying to bring me down with you. My read on this game is completely skewed now, and I'll have to spend some tome rereading again.

One thing is for certain,

unvote

. Death, I still find you probable scum, but Miztef moreso.

Vote: Miztef

[VanDamien]

I will be away from tomorrow morning until Thurday afternoon, with no chance of logging in.

Since we're waiting for replacements anyway, I expect the impact will not be dramatic.

[VanDamien]

My last post coudn't have been more wrong. Wow. Were people just waiting until I went away to start posting? Lotsa reading, but I will try and sum up.

First, it continues to irk me that people are still throwing around that we're in a possible LYLO situation. Unless you believe that there is a four person mafia group, that simply can not be true. Even if the split is 5:3:1 right now, and we mislynch, it only is a lose if the potential SK NK's town - and he/she better hit scum for any chance of winning. I see it more likely that there's a vig based on who is dead, but regardless - we're not in LYLO.

That said, the timing of the ploy continues to rub me the wrong way. If the stated purpose was to generate more discussion in this game, which obviously it has, it seems to me that waiting for are replacements (and you two, come on in!), to get the full reactions from all eight other people would have been more productive. We had slowed to a crawl while waiting for them, not because of any lack of interest of those who are still around.

I can understand doing things just for the sake of reaction. Obviously, that's something I have done already here with my flat statements of who was town and scum earlier in the game. But being underhanded and sneaky about it comes across pretty damn scummy to me. For now, though,

Unvote

, but I still have my eye on you, Miztef.

I'm divided on DeathSauce's reaction. I'm trying to read his posts, thinking how I would react, and compare whther his reactions seem more in line with mine from a townie perspective, or if they come across scummy. And to be honest, for the most part, it seems fairly in line with how I would feel if the target of such a thing. For the most part. But overall, it has a color of desperation, and begins to reach for straws here lately.

[VanDamien]

Okay

Vote:Ryan

[VanDamien]

All right, I had intended to do this a day or two ago, but life has gotten in the way. Here it is now, PBPA on ryan in its full glory, which should make it pretty clear why he is scum. Note I intentionally didn't press the case at first for certain reasons.

4:Random vote
13:Random vote question
24:confirms if everyone has voted
26:Questions which point Snichkin is proving, without comment otherwise.
32:Comments on incorect VC
35:Again comment son incorrect VC
38:Asks ABR why he thnks I'm scum. Remeber, we're still in random time here, and I hadn't significantly posted, at all yet.
50:Is one of several who attempt to educate me. A shame sarcasm doesn't translate sso well to the written word or they would have taken it for what it was in those early posts of mine.
53:Promises a reread and content. Of slightly more interest is the short part at the beginning of this post:

A tad suspicious, already? DAMN!

Um, shouldn't everyone be?Well, excpet for you scum who know who is a townie, of course.
55:The promised content, excpet it isn't really. Talks a lot about how everyone needs to post more, and how well maybe he has a few reservations about some people. The interesting part of this post is the analysis of HK:

HurriKaty: Post #4 has me a little interested, especially with the lack of posts. It was posted to random bandwagon to find somebody early in a game, which I don't totally disagree with, I hate the term bandwagoning. Mafia members love to jump on a bandwagon late in the action and take somebody out easily, I don't 100% disagree with this tactic but I'm not all on board. Random bandwagon can be good and bad is what I'm basically saying, I'm just waiting for more posts to see which one she's on. Only two posts so it could have been a pro townie mention OR something to throw off the scent of her tainted tail

So, we're saying that scum like to jump on wagons late, so Katy might possibly be scum in this situation, because post of post #4?!?
57:Doesn't like that he posted a lot of nothing and ABR posted a littel of nothing.
60:Again wants people to post more, asks Miztef for guidance.
76:Asks Snichkin to post.
81: a LOL
86:picture comment on ABR's #85
93:Comment comment on ABR's #85
95:Suggests a posting limitation for Para, which seems extremely odd to suggest such a thing for one person when he's been commenting on everyone's lack of posting.
100:clarifies 95
102:again clarifies 95
106:tries to justify ABR's stupendous scumminess. Perhaps an attempt to be seen as defending someone he knows will turn up pro-town.
108:Fishes for a vote from TopHat
110:references top of page VCs. For the record, I like them too.
112:promises another reread
113: NOW, 113 posts into the game, and what, 100 later, and after commenting on it earlier - decides Snichkins playing to prove a point is reason enough to vote him.
The timing is bothersome. ABR is looking like the lynch of the day, most everyone has stopped pursuing Snichkin at this point, so if there is a scum connection here, it's a safe distancing vote.
119:Isn't a mason. Duh - My comment to the effect was facetious, and directed at ABR.
124:After Tophat comments on, but comes to a slightly different conclusion about ryan's analysis of HK, ryan sweeps it under the rug here.
127:Huh?
130:Asks Miztef for guidance.
135:After commenting on posty #85 twice already, ryan now thinks it could be scummy. Sure.
163:Again asks Miztef for guidance
181:Asks the people not voting to put forth a target. Again, very possibly trying to distance himself from a ABR lynch, since he knows it will turn up town, and looking for a different wagon to jump on.
183: Ok, so in 182 I say

I'll unvote, and wait for the votes to pile on. I am convinced enough to do the hammering on this one.

And somehow out of that, ryan thinks I'm suggesting a no lynch? WTF?
192: Continues to stay away from the topic of the day, anand remain with the much safer (for him) Snichkin.
195:So, he's already decided to saty away from an ABR-wagon. Realizes that I'm most likely telling the truth, and now needs town support before making a move, so he isn't seen as a catalyst in a townie lynch.
198:Some interesting semantic things going on here. ABR calls him out on this, earlier:

I mean if he is town and you are town we would have just lynched TWO of our players.

. Ryan defends in this way:

I don't think I contradicted myself. I simply stated that if we (as a townie) lynch the wrong person than the mafia lynches another, wouldn't that be losing two of our players? I guess I shouldn't have said "we the town lynched" because it would technically be the town lynching one and the mafia lynching the other. I apologize for the confusion, my bad

Now, obviously mafia kills, or nightills, or however else yoou want to say it, they don't lynch - not on their own, not on day one. So when he says "we would have lynched" in the first place, by the way he's using terminology - h could definately have slipped and be referring to a we which includes him in the lynch and the mafia, "lynching" ie lynching and NKing, two town players.
200:Again asks for more posting
217:Still won't express an opinion either way on me or ABR
224:Gets a thought that maybe ABR can be lynched safely now because he wants it, sasks to be sure before voting.
226:Reiterates 224 in different words.
230:vollkan answers that he thinks that ABR wants me to hammer him, and that then ABR, me, and Para will be dead, though neither I or ABR has answered directly yet, so ryan sticks his foot out a little further with a FOS of ABR, waiting for actual confirmation.
240:AGAIN asks Miztef for guidance
244:unvotes
249:Asks DeathSauce his opinion on the situation

All right, that's the first third of the game, more to come.

[VanDamien]

Continued from last night:

253:useless comment
269:Finally votes! Again supports Miztef's towniness while doing so. Reasoning includes ABR has planned his claim out with the other mafioso.
271:Already back off the vote, saying he's quite willing to not lynch ABR if the town doesn't want it.
273:Somewhat untrue. As has been seen, while ryan hasn't really pushed anyone's wagon - he has sat around and waited for one to develop, very hesistantly. ABR brings up an interesting point in response to this: that ryan encourages others to vote without doing so himself.
275:Very defensive, now that he's in the limelight with ABR.
280:Now regrets his vote on ABR.
283:After DogMom makes a statement about the lynch/kill thing, ryan explains it as "using terms everyone knows". Theis explanation is crap. Anyone who knows enough of the game to understand what a lynch is, should be expected to know what a NK is.
290:Goes after ABR again - after saying that he agrees with the day 2 plan, and most everyone seems to agree, which fits in with wanting to cast suspicion on a townie but not be instrumental in the lynch.
295:

and been at least trying to find scum in this game

This is definately untrue.
297:Comments on ABR trying to drive a ryan-wagon. Which, with ABR's play on day one, is possibly enough to cast serious doubts on a ryan-wagon.
312:Sugeests HK rereads.
321:MIsses SC's point that puhing an ABR lynch isn't scummy - but pushing it without reasoning is.
323:Coninues to miss SC's point.
325:Gets the point, and as per his pattern, asks SC who we should be voting for.
328:Ofhand comment to ABR.
329:More commenting on those not voting.
331:More short commenting to ABR.
333:Asks me who we should be voting, which with all his claimed rereads, you'd think he'd remember that I'm' not voting at that point so that I can hammer ABR.
335:And misses that point when I poin it out.
343:Asks vollkan who we should be lynching.
354:Cop fishes
356:Now is going to keep his finger pointed squarely at ABR.
360:Again wnats to hear from those not voting.
370:Asks HK to vote, ABR to comment on a HK/Para link, and AGAIN asks Miztef for guidance.
387:Wants HK replaced. Follows the pattern of not pushing a lynch that looks apparent - when it's targeting a townie.
391:Continues to defend HK.
393:Continues to defend HK.
395:Defedns HK and Miztef.
396:Wants me and TopHat to post.
398:contentless
403:Agress we've been looking for lurkers instead of scum, when HK's posting patterns look like active lurking at the time, which IS scummy.
405:More asking for others to post.
407:Now thinks HK is scum, which contradicts 403.
408:Asks about the deadline.
412:Wants to know why HK is defensive - still doesn't vote.
414:ABR searches for that vote, still doesn't come.
416:Notes that his and Miztef's votes won't lynch HK.
418:restates 416
420:Wants more people to give their opinion on a HK lynch.
422:Is going to give HK one last chance.
426:Nevermind, let's not give HK that chance - because SC has called ryan on it.
430:No doubt that HK is scum.
431:Claims to not have been called out, even with the reversal of opinion between 422 and 426.
434:Thinks someone should hammer.
436:contentless
438:contentless
452:Thinks ABR was going to protect himself.
471:contentless
480:distances self from a me-wagon
481:wants others to post more
483:Discussion starting vote.
485:contentless
488:wants more posting
490:Misses his vote but mentions mine when discussing what is going on D2. Looks for more posting. Says something controersial may help, but doesn't do it. (That task falls to me)
493:Asks Miztef or SC to post.
497:Out of game question about SC, understandable.
499:Misses Miztef
504:Wants to ignore the count to hunt scum. Continues to not hunt scum. Besides, the count is somewhat important, because several people are being overly hesitant believing we're in LYLO - which we aren't even with a SK. If we mislynch, the SK has to hit town tonight to give the mafia the win.
505:Asks Para which direction we should go.
508:Promises another reread and detail.
510:Goes after DeathSauce for not providing content - which is nicely ironic.
513:More or less the same as 510.
514:LONG POST! My comments about it are in bold:[quote="ryan]Reading the game through again here is some things I picked out. (depending on activity of course)


DeathSauce: Thinks ABR is town (215) Wants to get new players imput to get some fresh perspective. Finds VD made a quick vote on ABR’s death and is suspicious. 502 again seems distracting and not much into finding scum. Basically just about ABR, being gone and doesn’t have anything to say. Also brings up the setup (again) eventually we are going to have to worry more about scum instead of the setup and numbers that are counterproductive and done (IMO) to look active when you really aren’t.

Ryan's current vote, but the only scummy things ryan can find from him are the fact that he's discussed the set-up and is having difficulty sorting through day one. Commenting about looking active without doing any scumhunting is again, ironic.

TopHat goombapatrol054: Being replaced and a good thing because I have NO clue on his role as he hasn’t posted much of anything. Definetly a non contributor

Fair

Miztef: Seems to be pretty pro town as has been somebody who’s brought up discussion and continued discussion. Was one of the first that didn’t like how ABR was seen by the players and had the idea of keeping him around to Day 2 (160) Had suspicion of Para (238) Post 381 was strange as he put HK and Ivy as scummy and than said that HK promising content was more scummy than a lurker. Dropped the hammer on HK and while the hammer can be seen as scummy this time it was the town’s agreement that HK was scum. Thinks Lowell as protown and throws out that VD is suspicious as well. Post 500 was appreciated as Miztef continues to show his towniness (IMO) as he looks at the current active players. Thinks paradox/VanDamien/Truegossip are three to watch out for, doesn’t say what he feels they could be but throws a red flag at them. 509 a pressure vote on para to get posting

Again promotes Miztef as being pro-town. It is fairly obvious at this point that if ryan is scum, so is Miztef. Who is Lowell?

Paradoxombie: Asking about a SK in 482 was interesting as that really hadn’t been brought up until you did. Has posted very little viable content. Seems to be ABR’s #1 target, did ABR see something that we are missing? Did agree to die to prove ABR’s “guilt” but sacrificing townies is not my #1 way to play this game. Returns to post and say that a SK could have taken out ABR but offers little explanation on the SK theory. 501 admits to bandwagoning and is upset that just because it didn’t work out that the town has turned on him. Post 506 is not helpful to the town and not even enough to consider lurking

Obviously with two NKs we either have a SK or a vig, someone commenting on that early day 2 is actually a good thing for day 3 and later if anyone reacts to it.

TrustGossip: Replaced in with a somewhat negative outlook on the game. Not much of a post in 486, says he’s here but that ABR has muddied the waters and isn’t very positive about Day 2. 489 admits to “not contributing” A possible scum lurker who I'll be watching a little closer now

Earlier ryan comments how lurking =/= scum, only presuaded to vote HK because of Katy's posts after she is attacked for lurking, but now Trust is a scum lurker?

StallingChamp: Ever since his “girlfriend problem” hasn’t posted a whole heck of a lot to give me a good read. Post 318 about “forgetting the game” was a little weird. How do you forget you signed up for a game? Possible lurking. Did bring up the “jester role” in post 442 which was odd. 359 post was interesting as he’s calling out lurkers BUT had lurked quite a bit to that point. 373 is a defensive vote and an odd one. (425) FoS’s me for asking that HK be given a chance to clarify her stance in the game and says I let a lurker go by, well what have you been doing?

Misses that SC has been banned from the site by this point

VanDamien: Started out actively looking for scum in the first few pages, than kind of dropped off. Still wondering if he did this to give the impression he was active and is now lurking. Seemed to be the leader in the “lynch ABR” discussion. Will drop the hammer on ABR if he gets to -1 (which he did) Claimed vanilla in 193. Offered to die to help the town (204) Tries to get the town to take out ABR Day 1 and gives reasons why Day 2 is bad (257) Post 341 talks about lynching mafia three consecutive times BUT we still hadn’t lost any players yet, did he have an idea that his scum buddies were playing the game well enough to take a large lead? Suspects Vollkan could be cooking the numbers to throw off the town. Comes back in 491 with some observations on Trust, Para and Death, tries to stand out and say he doesn’t need people to follow as he’s a leader

Misrepresents 341. It obviously only applied in the event ABR was telling the truth. Begins this paragraph by stating I've dropped off in scumhunting, then closes it by stating how I've provided observations on 4 others.

vollkan: Has kept it pretty vanilla. Not too quick to lynch when Snichken got close to a hammer. Did ask VD and ABR what situation they wanted (208) I would have rather seen him ask the town what situation we were interested in doing. Says that his numbers were a mistake and meant to keep up discussion. 492 comes back and talks about a few of the comments made about him. Has also been big on the "Setup" of the game but still seems to be looking for our scum although having more of a stance on players would be appreciated. Seems to not want to be assertive with votes and opinions, hoping that he takes more of a stand with who he thinks our scum is

More irony here with saying vollkan needs to be more assertive about who he thinks is scum

[/quote]
517:Defends his comments about Trust.
522:wants replacements and posting from Para
529:Wants more from Para
532:Wants more from Para.
534:Wants more from Para
536:Wants more from Trust

Second thirdish done - will finish tonight, although my conclusions should be becoming fairly obvious by now.

[VanDamien]

Funny Story.

Part 3 of 3 was by far the most damning, and I think I might have just led to a ryan lynch. It's my fault it took me so long to get all of that done, but I actually did. I had just finished typing up the remaining observations, and summarizing it, when I hit submit. And the first line of that post asked for a deadline extension. I'm looking at the time on my computer, and there's still 7-8 hours until deadline, so I should be okay. Then the scrren comes up saying the thread was locked. I was confused at first and then I realized my mistake: GMT. Crap. Not the mods fault, I should have had it done the night before, but decided to watch a movie instead.

I feel pretty good I that I had 2 of 3 pegged when I was killed. I must admit, I would have contributed to Miztef's mislynch, as I thought he was the third by the time I was done analyzing ryan.

All in all, though, not taking anything away from the scum victory here, as it is probable they would have had it anyway - Albert made it really easy for you. In fact, I've been waiting for this game to end forever to talk about it elsewhere.