Mini 380: Artifacts- Game over

[Coron]

So, am I correct that this explains our other nightkill and that if people believe me and dogmom then we could no lynch from here?

[Nai]

A no-lynch puts us in Lynch or Lose tomorrow, we gain absolutely nothing, we lose a townie, and it potentially gives you the chance to win, anyways, if you used your ability two nights ago, or if you passed it on after that and someone else used it. So a no-lynch is a really bad idea at this point.

I'm not sure how much I believe DogMom's claim. It looks legit, but it could have been given to scum, and it also could be an activated 'assassinate' ability, like a sort of gassy molotov cocktail.

I"d like to hear more from DogMom before anything else is decided.

[Coron]

No lynch gives us any non-claimed roles abilities at night without really costing us anything, and if a kill goes through it in fact helps town by narrowing down the suspects tomorrow.

[ShadowLurker]

<pant> <pant> <pant>

OK, I'm finally caught up.
Dealing with stuff kindasorta in reverse post order. Sorta.

I think I can solve the problem of the M-M death last night.
I'm town (well, duh, what'd you expect me to say?)
GreenLiquid (my predecessor) started with a glass bottle of poison gas. It would read to other people as a bottle of vapor and no one else knew what it did. If opened, it would kill the person who opened it. It could be passed along, and was passed to Stewie (M-M's predecessor) on Night 1. I was told that on the death of the holder, I should get the bottle back. No indication if that was "after use" or "if the person is NKed before using". However, the stuff's not magical poison gas, so I'm assuming it's not auto-replenishing, either.
So,

if

that's the "empty glass bottle" found with M-M (which seems logical), then I'm guessing it's a one-shot kill, and we don't have to worry about scum getting it. If I get it back, though, with this reveal I've shot the possibility of offing a scum at night with it by passing it along to a scum and them (hopefully) opening it. However, since we're in LYLO, and there's no way to force someone to open the thing, and I'd rather not take the chance of having another townie die anyway, I figure it's best out in the open.

More stuff to follow...

Well, I missed this post, but bleh, I don't really buy this at all from a protown perspective.

1. Passing off an artifact that kills when the player uses it RANDOMLY in a game where artifacts = roles and a person would have no reason to use an unknown artifact unless he had other info or was using other artifacts?

2. Not telling a double voter who is investigation confirmed when you were reading prods and such about this artifact with 9 alive and probably 3 scum? While it would nullify it, I find a double vote much more useful in that situation because assuming 1 night kill, it's 8 alive and 3 scum in which it's LYLO with the possibility of no lynch. With a double voter, you can have a chance with 6 alive and 3 scum. And the not being sure about his alignment doesn't really hold up either seeing as there was an innocent investigation and GL didn't suspect M-M.

3. I don't see M-M using an unknown artifact over a double vote but this point is probably neglible seeing as I doubt DogMom would make up a claim to lie about an artifact like this.

4. Lastly, the two modified 1 shot vigs bother me in a setup already with an SK and mafia. Coron's seems legit and Coron's play seems to follow his actions so this one is not sitting well with me especially combined with point #2.

Ugh I really really hate this game now. Before, I was sold on Nai/Apeiron, now I think it's more likely GL and one of Nai/Apeiron is stupid. (probably Apeiron)

[Apeiron]

Well, it's not me. Not sure what more I can say about it

[Norinel]

Vote Count:

Nai- 1 (Apeiron)

Not voting (5): Everyone else

4 to lynch

[Nai]

Yes, maybe a no-lynch will end in us having one less person to dig through. But there's still a chance of two kills tonight, and that means we could end up losing before we even HIT another day. I'd much rather discuss things and find a good lynch. We have a 1/3rd chance today of hitting scum today if we vote randomly. I'd hope we're intelligent enough to increase those odds. Tomorrow, yes, we have 2/5, but there's a significant chance of us not MAKING it to tomorrow.

Right now, I think there's a good chance of DogMom being scum and faking the details of that bottle in order to throw us into confusion. The bottle can't be denied, but the actual conditions on which it kills could be very different.

[DogMom]

Well, I missed this post, but bleh, I don't really buy this at all from a protown perspective.

1. Passing off an artifact that kills when the player uses it RANDOMLY in a game where artifacts = roles and a person would have no reason to use an unknown artifact unless he had other info or was using other artifacts?

Yeah, I wondered about that too, to be honest. I thought it was scummy

myself

. The only thing I can think of is maybe he thought MM was scum at the time? Dunno; I can't really answer for what GL thought / didn't think.

2. Not telling a double voter who is investigation confirmed when you were reading prods and such about this artifact with 9 alive and probably 3 scum? While it would nullify it, I find a double vote much more useful in that situation because assuming 1 night kill, it's 8 alive and 3 scum in which it's LYLO with the possibility of no lynch. With a double voter, you can have a chance with 6 alive and 3 scum. And the not being sure about his alignment doesn't really hold up either seeing as there was an innocent investigation and GL didn't suspect M-M.

Yeah, again, to be honest, if I wasn't replacing GL I'd swear he was scum scum scum. Lordy, picking up prods without posting, sitting back and doing nothing - I'm surprised you guys didn't lynch him a while ago, to be honest.
All I can answer for, really, is my actions, and my role. I'm a plain townie, who had an assassination tool (that I'm not at all comfortable with, and I don't wonder that GL passed it off - I just wonder why he didn't WARN MM somehow about it!)

3. I don't see M-M using an unknown artifact over a double vote but this point is probably neglible seeing as I doubt DogMom would make up a claim to lie about an artifact like this.

4. Lastly, the two modified 1 shot vigs bother me in a setup already with an SK and mafia. Coron's seems legit and Coron's play seems to follow his actions so this one is not sitting well with me especially combined with point #2.

<shrug>
Can't help you here.

I have no idea why GL didn't say anything to MM in-game about that thing. My only speculation is that since the handoff had to go through the mod, he couldn't have said anything in the PM, since it wasn't direct.
He also may have wanted to save the vial for another possible handoff, maybe to kill a scum some night. Although why he thought MM wouldn't use it is beyond me.

My candidates for scum are Nai, and Apeiron. I just don't like Jules' play, and I still haven't figured out exactly what "confirmed" him as town in peoples' minds. I may be extremely dense, but I'd like to know more about that.

Nai...well. I've seen Coron play before and this is fairly consistent with what I've seen from before. Dunno about Nai, but that argument-that-served-nothing really didn't raise him much in my books.
I'll be back with more later.

[DogMom]

OK, as for Nai.
He was defensive right from the gitgo. In a 12-person game, a single vote and a FoS is hardly anything to worry about, but his first post says "Right... And FOS and a Vote on me. Fantastic. "
Yeah, that's pretty much how page 1 / early Day 1 goes, don't it?

And, while I agree that Coron's Day 1 / Page 1 playstyle of "hey everyone that's suspicious of me is CONFIRMED SCUM" is offputting and can be quite annoying, he's certainly not the only one to do that, and it doesn't guarantee he's scum. He just does that. But that is apparently a fabulous reason for Nai to focus on him almost exclusively, and goes looking for other reasons to vote for Coron. He also did go fishing for roleclaims on a

Page 2

bandwagon. Good grief, people.

Page 2?

There's also something that doesn't sit right with me about his interchange with Jules-then-Coron. I'm not sure what. I think part of it is the "Jules voted for me pre-crash, HEY MOD, Jules is voting for me, JULES give me reasons why are you voting for me why why why." I dunno, it just looks / feels a bit "over-the-top" to me. Especially since, as he pointed out, the crashposts were lost. It wouldn't have been that difficult to check and see who Jules was voting for in the surviving posts.
I can't really FoS anyone, let alone vote them, on a mere "dunno...doesn't sit quite right", so if this was the only thing, I'd let it go, but let's keep going, shall we?

After the Late October 06 Crash, he comes back to post "that's 2 pages we've lost", followed by "Jules was voting for me", followed by four days of no posts. (Granted, there wasn't much posting going on), followed by "apparently not posting because I have nothing to say means I'm scum?"

The next 3 I understand - he's asking Jules to post reasons for his vote on Nai.
Then starts the whole thing with Coron and "what is defending and what is explaining" and "when you should / should not defend someone".
I won't give my take on defending people or not; that horse is so dead that it's now completely vaporized and all that's left is a grease spot on the ground.
He does claim that he's not using craplogic. *sigh* I suppose I'll have to go into it after all.
<lines up for my shot at the grease spot>
"Never defending someone unless you're sure of their alignment" is, I think we can all agree, an absolute statement. These tend not to work very well when applied -

NEVER

is a very very long time, and there are times when defending someone, even if you don't know their alignment, can be a good thing. I've done it, more than once, in various games, and to be honest, the guy was looking extremely scummy. It didn't make much difference to my perceived alignment, though. I haven't gotten voted-for just because I tried to defend someone that seemed scummy.
So your "never ever" already is broken

in my experience

.
To vote for someone based on an absolute that may have been suggested to YOU as a good way to START playing until you get a feel for things, or as a guideline but not hard-and-fast rule, or whatever, that turns out to be a "not applicable in all states, void where prohibited, insert disclaimer here"

is

, in fact, craplogic. Sorry.
Especially since it seems to me, upon reread, Coron's "defense" was basically a "my take on it is..."
Again, it seems as if he's in hyper-defensive mode, here. It was what, a 2nd vote on him? I agree with the request for reasons, but then to go after Coron for explaining why HE personally didn't think it was terribly scummy...over, and over, and OVER...
And, as I go through his posts, he just seems to be completely on the hyper-defensive.
Anytime he's asked about why he's got such a thing about Coron, he hammers again and again about "he voted for me for NO REASON! He turned against me right away! He's way too overconfident!"
Yeah, pretty much by that time I thought it had been established that that is just the way Coron starts the game out.

Hm, on to a discussion of "ad hominem".

le sigh

, followed by a Request for Claim to Jules, and more on "ad hominem".

Now we're discussing the Ear. Nai has some interesting comments. First off, there was much discussion regarding what kind of information the "Mouth" could give. I understand, it'd been a few months since the beginning of the game, but honestly. Jules did say he could only ask it "yes / no" questions. On my readthrough, I wondered exactly

why

everyone was so concerned about the "mouth" giving away all the alignments. Surely, "you can only ask yes / no questions" at the very least

implies

that you will ONLY GET YES / NO ANSWERS, does it not? How would that be at all helpful to scum unless they had

both

artifacts? What's a "mouth" (or, as we discovered, the hands) that randomly says "yes" or "no" going to do for the scum unless they know the questions being asked?

Ah. I think I have it now, re: Jules / Apeiron. He's not scum because he would've only given the ear to another scum, in the hopes they could've gotten the "Mouth" (Hands) later on, yes?

He also didn't see any case against Kelly or Zindaras. Hmmmm....

Next comes his claim with the Chest of Winds. Interesting.
Discussion about what it can do, and how, and whether it can be passed. I do agree with him that it's too powerful a device to be used over & over again. However, I do

not

agree with him that scum could use it over & over by passing it around.
1) We agree that in a game this size, there's generally only 3-4 scum, yes?
2) With, say, 3 scum, and 1 has been outed as a SK (who apparently never killed, interestingly enough), the chest could only be used twice by scum if it could be passed around. 3 on the outside. So no, it's not a universal Scumtool, even so
3) And, even if it were reusable by scum over & over, they'd be sacrificing every nightkill - their BIG advantage - by using it every night. This would be beneficial to them how?

This is an interesting comment about it:

The only reason I didn't want to use it basically stems from not wanting to interrupt cop investigations/doc protects, if we have those roles.

If the mafia need to leave their tent to kill, as we've seen

and had evidence of from Night One

(stabbing usually isn't done long-distance through tent walls), why the concern about blocking a Doc Protect? Doc-protect isn't needed if the scum can't kill that night anyway.
Plus, there was extensive discussion about using the Ear & "Mouth" to do cop-investigations; I figured at this point that it was entirely probable the investigation would be done by some sort of other artifact, or scrying, or something that didn't require leaving the tent.
Granted, this is still Day 1, and you didn't want to use it right away on Night 1, but I just found the wording curious, because it rather looks like you still thought it would block an unnecessary protect or an investigation.

Well, that does mean that I will be blocking a lot of things, then. There's several disadvantages to using it on a predetermined night.

May I ask what? Stabbing doesn't require using a limited amount of resources, so the scum aren't going to use up one of their kills that night.
<shrug>
Granted, I'm looking at this now from the "after-use" perspective, but still, I just can't see the disadvantages of using it on a predetermined night.

Then he started after Coron again, because of the Kelly Chen kill. Why is killing Mafia a

bad

thing? He says that Coron didn't say anything about it. Why should he have?

Incidentally, a camel that shoots lasers out its ass is hilarious. Great mental image there.

MOD: thank you for that mental image, Mr. Norinel, sir.

And Nai not only totally misread / misinterpreted how the thing worked, he kept pounding at "why didn't you aim it at ME, then" afterward. I understood completely - Since he had to submit his

target name

on Night 2 (between Day 1 and Day 2), and the target wasn't actually ass-lasered (*snerk!*) until Night 3,

and

he figured that a Nailynch was far more probable on Day 2 than a Kellylynch was, then it'd make FAR more sense to target the scum that would have been more likely to survive the Day to get lasered. (*Snerksnerk*)
Even when it is explained to him, several times, Nai just doesn't seem to get it. "Letting the town know" would've been

stupid

- Mafia, regardless of who, could've either killed him before he got a chance to use the artifact, OR they would've tried to drive it to a "vig vote", and could've tried to get a second "free kill" that night. (As it turns out it wouldn't have been a "free kill", since it apparently only lasers scum, but in any case, since it was a one-use-for-the-entire-game artifact, it would've been wasted using it on a townie.)
I

don't

understand why Nai thinks that Coron is so very very suspicious after Coron targeted Kelly with his...um....lasercamel. *snert*

FoS:Nai

(for now. I have other people to read up on as well, and this post is already too flipping long.)

[DogMom]

Yes, maybe a no-lynch will end in us having one less person to dig through. But there's still a chance of two kills tonight, and that means we could end up losing before we even HIT another day. I'd much rather discuss things and find a good lynch. We have a 1/3rd chance today of hitting scum today if we vote randomly. I'd hope we're intelligent enough to increase those odds. Tomorrow, yes, we have 2/5, but there's a significant chance of us not MAKING it to tomorrow.

Right now, I think there's a good chance of DogMom being scum and faking the details of that bottle in order to throw us into confusion. The bottle can't be denied, but the actual conditions on which it kills could be very different.

How is there a good chance of two kills tonight?
What, you think I get the bottle back and hand it off again? I'm sure that

nobody

is going to open it up after my Complete Reveal; exactly why would I have done that if I was scum?

Honestly, I've opened myself up as a target, I've said "I have no artifacts", I've said the one I had appears to have been a one-shot deal (I'll let y'all know, by the way, if I get it back tonight - IF I survive till tomorrow, that is), and I posted an explanation that is completely consistent with the events of the night.

Thanks for the compliment, that you think I'm sneaky enough, sly enough, devious enough, and intelligent enough to not only come up with that kind of explanation that covers all the events but also throws in supporting detail about it, but that I can keep it up indefinitely, but I really am not.

No way of you knowing that, of course, but there it is.

[Nai]

Why on earth would you be killed tonight? As you said, You've revealed you have no artifacts. You are not a threat tonight; you already said it's a complete reveal, said nothing about any other artifacts. That means you have nothing tonight. You could GET one tonight, but wouldn't be able to use it until tomorrow night, so you would be able to be killed tomorrow night with no risk.

Coron's ability WOULDN'T be wasted on town. If he uses it and the person doesn't die, they're confirmed. I've always found that confirmed town are really helpful. When it's a decision between someone you find most scummy and someone you don't, why, exactly, do you target the least scummy player? If they're town, you get the same thing as I proposed. Then you've wasted your one-shot. But on a confirmed (or so Coron acts) scum, you get them out of the way, and help the town win faster.

As for my artifact, for all we knew, there were artifacts that killed without leaving the tent.

Such as yours and Coron's.

A doc could have helped that night. And

why on earth would you say that a cop investigation is EVER not helpful?

[DogMom]

Why on earth would you be killed tonight? As you said, You've revealed you have no artifacts. You are not a threat tonight; you already said it's a complete reveal, said nothing about any other artifacts. That means you have nothing tonight. You could GET one tonight, but wouldn't be able to use it until tomorrow night, so you would be able to be killed tomorrow night with no risk.

Oh, I dunno, maybe to get rid of a townie? But yeah, since I'm apparently on at least a couple scumlists for various reasons, it probably wouldn't make sense to spend a NK on me when scum can try to get the town to do it instead.

Coron's ability WOULDN'T be wasted on town. If he uses it and the person doesn't die, they're confirmed. I've always found that confirmed town are really helpful. When it's a decision between someone you find most scummy and someone you don't, why, exactly, do you target the least scummy player? If they're town, you get the same thing as I proposed. Then you've wasted your one-shot. But on a confirmed (or so Coron acts) scum, you get them out of the way, and help the town win faster.

Sure, I suppose using the one-shot LaserCamel on town would be helpful

if

we believed Coron.
Think about it: did we get anything in that nightscene to say "Giant Laser-Pooping Camel Flies Overhead"? No, we just got "Kelly Chen was burned to death." If Coron had targeted town, and said later, "Hey, I had this cool one-use artifact that generated a Flying Camel that shoots lasers out its ass and I targeted MM and nothing happened so he must be town" then would anyone have believed him? Or would you have decided "um, sure, so Coron and MM are scumbuddies" - because he'd have

no proof whatsoever

that he called up the Flying Camel of Doom. And you were

already

focusing on Coron; I sincerely doubt you would've believed him without some sort of proof.

As for my artifact, for all we knew, there were artifacts that killed without leaving the tent.

Such as yours and Coron's.

A doc could have helped that night. And

why on earth would you say that a cop investigation is EVER not helpful?

Point to where I said a cop investigation isn't helpful.

What I said was that the

EAR

, by itself, wasn't going to be useful as a

solo object

. You do see that, right? Just like the Hands, giving an unexplained "NO", meant absolutely nothing. It was only when

both

were put together that they became a

single

useful cop investigation.

Unless you are confusing this phrase:
"it would block an unnecessary protect or an investigation."

Unnecessary modifies "protect",

not

protect AND investigation. That's why the second "an" is in front of investigation.
I will concede the point, however, that the doc role may have helped in the event of an in-tent demise, such as MM's. I don't know. I wasn't told one way or the other. So yes, in the event that in-tent deaths could've been protected / prevented by the doc, then it would've helped to have the doc be able to protect. Hopefully he would've picked the right person, hey?

[Nai]

Granted, this is still Day 1, and you didn't want to use it right away on Night 1, but I just found the wording curious, because it rather looks like you still thought it would block an unnecessary protect or an investigation.

If you are really good at grammar, you notice the 'an'. But most people wouldn't, and they'd miss the fact of what the 'unnecessary' modifies, so the sentence looks odd. It can be misread to my detriment.

No, I didn't want to use my chest night 1. I didn't have much of a choice. Either use it or be killed the next day. And, notice, nothing seemed to happen that night.

The 'flying camel of doom' doesn't really say much either way. No, I probably wouldn't believe him, if he suddenly came out and said it like that. However, I would have believed him if he had, day 1 or day 2, said, "I have/am going to use/d an ability on (name). It will either kill them tomorrow night/tonight if they are scum, or it will keep them alive if they are townie. You'll know the result as well as I." It at least gives a buildup, a chance for the town to know what he's doing. That way the town isn't in the dark about it. Now, he says he did it night 1, we know we had a death night 2, but nothing can really be proved.

I'll point this out, however. If we assume Coron is telling the truth, Dogmom is telling the truth, and I am telling the truth, three people that have used one-shot artifacts and claim to have no others, there are only three people excluded. Apeiron, who seems to be on just about everyone's list, Shadowlurker, and Zindaras, both of whom have been questioned at one time or another.

[DogMom]

Granted, this is still Day 1, and you didn't want to use it right away on Night 1, but I just found the wording curious, because it rather looks like you still thought it would block an unnecessary protect or an investigation.

If you are really good at grammar, you notice the 'an'. But most people wouldn't, and they'd miss the fact of what the 'unnecessary' modifies, so the sentence looks odd. It can be misread to my detriment.

OK, I thought it was clear, you didn't and misread it. Fair enough.

No, I didn't want to use my chest night 1. I didn't have much of a choice. Either use it or be killed the next day. And, notice, nothing seemed to happen that night.

Ooo, now we have another potential misread. I'm assuming you mean "Night 1 as in the night after Day 1"? Because I really don't blame you for not wanting to use it "Night 1 as in before Day 1 when neongrey got killed".

"the Night after Day 1"...welll, that's a Judgement call. you didn't know exactly what was going to happen, and I can understand you not wanting to use it yet.

Note that I'm not

doubting that you used it

. I agree that you did have it, you used it when you said you would, and it worked the way you said it was going to. However, just like my artifact, it doesn't really say much about your alignment.

The 'flying camel of doom' doesn't really say much either way. No, I probably wouldn't believe him, if he suddenly came out and said it like that. However, I would have believed him if he had, day 1 or day 2, said, "I have/am going to use/d an ability on (name). It will either kill them tomorrow night/tonight if they are scum, or it will keep them alive if they are townie. You'll know the result as well as I." It at least gives a buildup, a chance for the town to know what he's doing. That way the town isn't in the dark about it. Now, he says he did it night 1, we know we had a death night 2, but nothing can really be proved.

True (since you're using N1 and N2 here as "night after D1" and "Night after D2" I'll assume that's what you meant throughout the whole thing. When I used them above, I used N1, N2, etc. as the way the Mod did: the game started with N1, then D1, then N2, D2, etc., so I think we're talking about different nights on some of these actions.)

I honestly see the Flying LaserCamel as a one-shot vig action. Sure, the vig can claim if he wants to, but to claim

before

he used it would've just guaranteed his death that night to prevent the NK. However, he did have the ability to claim on D2, you're right.
However, I'm inclined to believe him. As soon as Kelly Chen's death was posted, he posted that he was responsible, and then followed up shortly thereafter with the full explanation. Sure, he could've pulled the whole thing out of his....navel....but he may not have.

I'll point this out, however. If we assume Coron is telling the truth, Dogmom is telling the truth, and I am telling the truth, three people that have used one-shot artifacts and claim to have no others, there are only three people excluded. Apeiron, who seems to be on just about everyone's list, Shadowlurker, and Zindaras, both of whom have been questioned at one time or another.

Problem here, because I think you're pointing out possible scum with this statement. And I realize this shoots me in the foot as much as you, but I have to say it.
If we're assuming that you, Coron and I are telling the truth

about our artifact usage

, this does not and should not necessarily extend to us telling the truth

about everything else

. Any of us could still be scum and be telling the truth about our artifact disposition but lying through our keyboards about everything else. "The best lie is 99% truth" and all that. I mean, heck, Coron could've been the mafia with Kelly, was out trying to do the stabbystabby on...um...Nightfall and got a PM from the mod saying he *saw* a LaserCamel Of Doom target and take out Kelly, and made up the rest out of whole cloth. However, that doesn't account for "how did he *know* no one would contradict him", of course.

And, actually, due to Jules' disposition of the Ear, I'm rather inclined to put Apeiron in the "town" column for now.

[Nai]

Yes, I always consider N1 to be after day 1, because that makes sense. I consider opening night to be n0, since no day has happened yet.

Somehow, I consider this 'flying camel' bit to be more like a nuke than a man with a knife. Kill the man, the knife can't do it himself. But Coron just presses the button and, even if he dies, his target dies too.

Zindaras and Shadowlurker have been scummy to many people throughout the game. Take Apeiron out of the 'scummy' list, and you, potentially, have two people that may or may not be scum. However, you're right. None of us really are cleared in this game, at all. I'm having trouble thinking of a case for anyone right now to be the death for today.

[Nai]

On a side note, I'm going to go on vacation in two days for a period of 9 days, and I may or may not have internet and the ability to post. I'll post every chance I get.

[DogMom]

Hey, everybody that's not Nai or I! You still awake out there? Come on...doesn't anyone else have anything to say? I've asked questions of yez and everything! Hello?

[Coron]

I tempted to vote for Nai at this time, and that will end up making things a lot simpler, either we lose or Nai is scum. But I'm not sure I want to take that step just yet.

[Coron]

Wait, 6 alive? We're not that bad off then. NM.

[Zindaras]

I'll point this out, however. If we assume Coron is telling the truth, Dogmom is telling the truth, and I am telling the truth, three people that have used one-shot artifacts and claim to have no others, there are only three people excluded. Apeiron, who seems to be on just about everyone's list, Shadowlurker, and Zindaras, both of whom have been questioned at one time or another.

I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. All it looks like to me is the statement that if we assume three people are town, the other three could be scum, something you don't need a degree for to realize.

I'm fairly sure DogMom is part of the scumteam. GL isn't an idiot, and I can't possibly see him play the bottle artifact the way he did and still be town. MaMa got confirmed by the Cop and GL never warned him. Also, due to Apeiron's move against Nai, I don't think that they can be scum together, which leaves me with the inevitable conclusion that DogMom is scum. I don't think Coron or SL are scum.

[DogMom]

@ Zindaras: So I'm assuming that you believe there are 2 scum left, yes? For a start of 3 Mafia, 1 Serial Killer, and 8 Town? That's what I'm seeing in your most recent post, that you think Nai and I are scumbuddies.

Next, why are you suddenly not thinking SL is scum? Through darn near the whole game you are hammering away at "luna's scum" and then when SL replaced her it was "SL is scum". Suddenly here you kindasorta indicate that he might NOT be on your scumdar after all.
In response to Kelly Chen's question about it, you reply "Because apparently most people believe he's the Cop." Why would most people have believed that? He was holding a one-use-per-person Cop

artifact

, that he'd already used. He reported a townie result on MM as the result of his use of it. He'd already expressed an intention to pass it on, as well.
This smells very much of "I'm going to go with what everyone else says so as not to ping their scumdar." Niiiiiice.

SL never claimed cop. He held a Cop

artifact

. He even SAID the

Eye

is the Cop.
You even demonstrated your understanding of this fact in your next post, with your scenario of "Writing Slate gets passed 1 Night after Eye". So why would it be beneficial to town for you to pass the slate to SL? The only "benefit" is to supposedly confirm your towniness, which it wouldn't do.

I'll go with your "GL isn't an idiot", but he

was

clearly ignoring this game. I have no idea why, and can't speculate why he was picking up his prods and not requesting replacement. I have no idea why he played the bottle artifact the way he did. To be quite honest, I have no idea how that bottle could have been seen as helpful or beneficial in any way.
However, his 2 choices for the bottle were either to hang on to it and never use it, never open it, whatever
-OR-
Pass it to someone.
He obviously chose the latter. From the indications given, I'm certain that passing artifacts is done through the mod, so it's not like GL could send Stewie (at the time) a PM saying "I'm passing you this BOTTLE OF POISON, DON'T OPEN IT UNLESS YOU'RE SCUM" or anything.
And exactly how would he indicate that in-thread without revealing all to everyone, and therefore rendering it completely useless? Maybe he thought Stewie might be scum, or might pass it along to someone else. I don't know.
It's just a pretty random (and kinda annoying) artifact to have - a completely passive assassination attempt. You're relying on the person you're trying to kill to NOT pass it along to someone else AND to be curious (or desperate) enough to open it up and try it out.
Obviously it was opened up and tried out, but GL had no way of knowing that it would be.

[ShadowLurker]

Nai, your logic is so stupid it astounds me. Why would we randomly assume half the game must be town if they're telling the truth from their abilities? Why can't I be telling the truth about my artifacts? The only way that conclusion could follow is if you think an artifact kills but even then we have no way of confirming that you don't have other artifacts. That again looks like a construed argument from you.

Hey DogMom, how did you go from GL looks scummy I can't answer any of your questions to GL had good reason in your response to Zindaras.

First, you give a false choice, GL could've held onto it for a night, or two, and not PASSED A KILLING ARTIFACT RANDOMLY OFF THE FIRST NIGHT. You can pass as many artifacts as you want off in a night. Next, "Obviously it was opened up and tried out, but GL had no way of knowing that it would be." Are you really trying to imply that GL might think that someone would NOT use an unknown power passed to them?

I was liking you a lot more than Nai in your argument with him but this sudden turnaround does not sit well at all in my eyes.especially considering it feels like an attempt to turn it onto Zindaras.

[DogMom]

Hey DogMom, how did you go from GL looks scummy I can't answer any of your questions to GL had good reason in your response to Zindaras.

Easily answered. I didn't.
I'm sorry if I was unclear. I'm speculating as to his possible motives and actions, that's all.

First, you give a false choice, GL could've held onto it for a night, or two, and not PASSED A KILLING ARTIFACT RANDOMLY OFF THE FIRST NIGHT.

Hello? Did you miss the first part of that entire section? You know, the part that said

his 2 choices for the bottle were either to hang on to it

I mean, really, you're arguing that he could've held on to it for one night, or two, or three, or all of them, but that still boils down to

2 choices

:
1) Hang on to the bottle and never pass it off
2) Pass off the bottle

at some point in the game

.

My apologies for not making myself clear. You're discussing a particular night. I wasn't intending that, and I should've made it clearer.

You can pass as many artifacts as you want off in a night. Next, "Obviously it was opened up and tried out, but GL had no way of knowing that it would be." Are you really trying to imply that GL might think that someone would NOT use an unknown power passed to them?

<shrug>
It was passed off Night 1. As in, BEFORE DAY 1. It wasn't passed off anymore than that, and wasn't opened for two more nights. Clearly, he did NOT, in fact, use it right away. I personally would've chosen differently, but again, I have no control over what GL did with this role first, and I have no idea why GL made the choices he did.
And, quite honestly, I agree - GL looked way scummy. It doesn't help me claim town, I know. I honestly don't know how I can convince you, especially since GL made some

baaaaaaadddddd

choices for town. I seriously don't blame you for thinking he / I look scummy. Wish you didn't, but them's the breaks.

I was liking you a lot more than Nai in your argument with him but this sudden turnaround does not sit well at all in my eyes.especially considering it feels like an attempt to turn it onto Zindaras.

*snort* Not really. In fact, I was really attempting to draw his attention back to

you

, quite frankly. He's been suspicious of you the whole game until you suddenly claimed the Cop Artifact. I wanted to make sure he remembered that YOU aren't necessarily a cop - but the ARTIFACT you claim to have is.

[Apeiron]

Why would it matter so much what GL did with the artifact? He can be scum either way. To me it actually seems his holding on to the artifact could mean he's Town, wanting to use it end-game. Do you think scum would have used it right away?

[DogMom]

I know he could be scum either way. He

didn't

hold on to the artifact at all, that's the problem. He passed it off as soon as he could. The problem is, it killed whoever OPENED it, so using it himself would've just killed him. I don't know how you could get around that particular characteristic of it, to be honest. If he passed it off, he would just have to hope he passed it to scum and they'd eventually use it. If he didn't, well, it's an artifact that doesn't get used, that's all.
That's probably what

I, personally

would've chosen to do with it, or at least I would've hung on to it until I had a better idea of who was scum and then passed it to one of 'em and hoped they opened it, but I didn't get the option.