Mini 1622: (Hilariously) Unbalanced Mafia [-Over-]

[Mathdino]

Can you try to explain to me why Shos votes suck? (this also goes to Saurus, too; I'm not quite sure what I'm supposed to read in 252 that's town unless you're referring to his tone)

Yo, sorry, you should put my name at the beginning of a line or bold it so I don't accidentally ignore it

Basically, 252's whole "I hadn't considered that angle on my posts until Dino pointed it out" is incredibly town to me, I'd have expected scum to at least defend it or show some semblance of self-awareness. Furthermore a lot of it is in fact explained by his LA, including the jack(el)pedalling.

[Mathdino]

His 'points' are nothing new and his mollie fight early on was utter BS.

I can see how he'd be concerned about Mollie. As for no original points, that's BS, as he was the first to push Shos and provide reasons to vote Jackel.

I forgot the 2nd part. Cause I mean this...
this isn't even true...
You call this (296) reasons to vote jackel?

Read his ISO again, Bulba. Your townreads on both him and Fenix are completely unfounded.

I want to reiterate that you're pretty much voting me out of
1. Gut, and
2. Your townread on ProHawk, which is weak as hell.

[Mathdino]

Okay so I'm not going to respond to Bulba's gigantic quote wall in full. Just want to say a couple things:

1. ProHawk didn't 'push' shos at all, and he certainly wasn't the first. Both his votes were naked, it wasn't until after everyone had already gone after shos that he started pushing with his words.
2. I found it odd that Nazarene was asking others for their opinions before providing hers. I will say that I've believed the claim for the most part all game.
3. I

should

be scumreading you for WKing ProHawk? What? I think you're town, and I've thought that for a while. I think your reads just suck right now.

Also you're considering a policy lynch if your grand total of 1 scumread doesn't happen? Really?

[Mathdino]

I was under the impression it was because of the ProHawk thing along with the gutscumread you've stated you had on me multiple times. I think you've managed to convince yourself that my actions have scum motivation and this came from the original gutread and the fact that my wording sometimes sounds fake.
I also think your ProHawk townread sucks and if you weren't townreading him I'd be fine in your book.

That said, I don't see much scum motivation in barreling after me regardless of ProHawk's alignment; if he's scum, then you'd be instantly connected to him, and if he's town, well, premature backlash much and you'd be suspected for unnecessarily defending ProHawk.

Why do you want me to scumread you so bad?

[Mathdino]

Holy shit, didn't notice the deadline.

<<< What, do I need to make the text even larger?!? >>>

Based on our collective targets, it looks like this lynch is gonna be between ProHawk, Fenix, and Voided. Would be cool with lynching either of the first 2. Voided as a whole reads town to me at the moment.

[Mathdino]

You discredit my case because it consists of 'buzzwords' (fluff, deflection, sheeping) yet you accuse me of IIoA when the majority of my content has been talking to and questioning people.

You've also shown no issues with me prior to the ProHawk case. So was that the only instance of IIoA?

[Mathdino]

Fluffing and never providing anything new, yes.
You responded to my accusations of said fluffing by saying mollie had also done nothing, which was a lie.
You've said enough one-liners to avoid being a lurker, yes.
I don't know what terrible post you're talking about but your lines of questioning have generally sucked.
Everyone else has at least

some

townpoints for doing various things, while you have absolutely nothing going for you.

That did work, people are voting you for it.

You claim that you've been seeing me as scummy for a while and I'm the first scummy person to try to setup spec that stuck out to you, yet you wait until

after

I unvote you to say

a word

. Dissonance.
The presence of any reasoning in your ISO starts at about 605 in which you misrep like crazy and start a conspiracy theory about counterclaims.

Nope, don't think you did.

Edit: Um.
I don't know what you think 'qualifier' means.
But the phrase 'if he's not' fits the

textbook definition

of a qualifier.
If no one ever CC's Sonic or flips cop, then yes, it's reasonable to assume he's telling the truth. If someone

does

that casts doubt.
And I'm not sure how something can be blatant without being direct. Wanna stop misrepping and strawmanning me?

[Mathdino]

I need to go through his scummeta atitbit more, but in general I can say that he is playing to his (hoooorrible) town meta.

...
why are you still voting him then?

@guille: ika's play is naturally insanely scummy as both alignments. With him you just have to look at motivations and I haven't seen much scum motivation in him this game.
Also he seems generally more logical as scum from what little I've read. Has anyone played with scum ika?

[Mathdino]

You are currently voting ProHawk while saying that he's playing to his town meta. Did you vote for the wrong person?

[Mathdino]

<<< Forgot to mention this earlier. I haven't gotten around to the 'paperwork', so to speak, but Mathdino is playing without his hydra buddy, going solo. Thus, Doyouthinkhesaurus is replaced by him. All VCs made after his request will have this reflected as soon as I am able. >>>

[Mathdino]

You're going to stop contributing just to spite one player's negative opinion of your scumhunting abilities?

[Mathdino]

Somehow I feel like Bulba pulling 3 different games, links, and analysis isn't an "offhand comment to Eddie".
Somehow I feel like you don't get to blame someone else for a conflict that you had.

This conversation is literally the dumbest possible one we could be having this close to LyLo, FFS.

[Mathdino]

Spoiler: Bulbazak, 694

You responded to my accusations of said fluffing by saying mollie had also done nothing, which was a lie.

This is a lie.

The presence of any reasoning in your ISO starts at about 605 in which you misrep like crazy and start a conspiracy theory about counterclaims.

Point out the misreps. That was not a conspiracy theory, but rather, solid analysis. Stop trying to discredit it.

And I'm not sure how something can be blatant without being direct. Wanna stop misrepping and strawmanning me?

Misrepping AND strawmanning? Wow. You must be something special. Tell me, how exactly is he strawmanning you, or did you just look through the list of mafia jargon and picked something that looked nice?

I need to remember to look through Mollie's ISO during the night phase...

1. Apologies, got the history mixed up. ProHawk responded to MOLLIE'S accusations of said fluffing by saying mollie had done nothing, which I called out as a lie directly afterward:

Time will tell Mollie. Time will tell.

But offhandedly I can't think of any content you have produced either... so there is that.

2. The below is ProHawk's 605:

Spoiler: 605

For my wall, I am going to start back to where things get interesting... around claim time.

Right after the claim -->

Bulb unvotes Sonic.
Nazarine votes Sonic.
Shos unvotes Sonic and calls Nazarine scum for voting Sonic.
DGB unvotes Sonic.
Eddie votes Sonic.
DGB joins the "Voting Sonic is ScumClaiming" clan.
Dino defends Sonic, the "un-cc'd cop".
DGB backs him up.
Dino votes Fenix for voting Sonic.
Guille talks about needing a counter-claim.

So here is what caught my eye (since I didn't explain myself properly the first time apparently). This is a closed game. We don't know what roles are. Speculation abounds, and likelihood/probability/percentages help with trying to figure stuff out. I get that. But when Dino said something about the cop being un-counter-claimed, that drew red flags up for me.

Because:

A) Why would a cop counter-claim even if he were in the game?
B) We don't know if there are multiple cops in the setup, which would also invalidate that insinuation (that another cop claim would be COUNTER to the original claim)
C) This game is listed as unbalanced/bastard/whatever, which would fly in the face of logic when trying to solve the game with claims and counter-claims. Red-Herring roles?

What this looks like to me, especially on a re-read of the whole situation:

Scum getting run up. The go-to-claim to fish for a potentially devastating role is cop. So he claims cop and runs with it. His buddies are trying to help the fishing along by

calling for a counter claim

. OR

In the event that Sonic actually is a Cop:

Scum are also capitalizing on the "lets find other cops and call for counter-claims"

Let it be known that all of

Dino, DGB, and Guille

want a counter claim to Sonic's claim.

I underlined the misreps for you. He came up with a conspiracy theory in which 3 people are asking for a CC, which is simply not true. This is misrepping. Not ONCE did I say that I was calling for a counterclaim today.

3. It's strawmanning because he keeps fighting against the idea that DGB, guille and I are asking for a counterclaim and rolefishing, which I am not (can't really speak for them).

[Mathdino]

That's kind of a bad reason to vote someone tbh.

358 was followed up by 361 in which he did get into more detail.

427 was followed up by 435 in which he ended up voting them.

432 was later followed up by an unvote which rendered his 'I must check that' nullified.

And 676 and 677 were made just today.

Find better reasons.

[Mathdino]

Hi guys, the name of this game is Hilariously.... HILARIOUSLY... UNBALANCED Mafia. Anyone trying to use balance to solve this game is scum.

VOTE: Dinosaurus

I think he was the first one? Or maybe was just

the first scummy one who stuck out to me

.

[Mathdino]

Then you're gonna have to explain what you meant better, because saying I'm the first scummy person who tried to use balance to solve this shows that you already thought I was scum before I did that.

But the first time I tried to use balance was over a dozen pages ago after jackel's claim. Which means I've been scummy since then.

If that's not true, then rephrase your argument so we don't get caught up on that.

[Mathdino]

I'm more comfortable with a guille lynch than Voided, but at the same time I feel like guille's become lynchbait for bad maneuvers.

I'll be around to hammer by the deadline if it comes to that, but for now I'm sticking with ProHawk or Fenix.

[Mathdino]

gg, ika solved D1

[Mathdino]

guille, please provide last words and a claim. This is

intent to hammer by the deadline.

[Mathdino]

I don't think I'm gonna have enough time to analyse the last 5 pages before the deadline, but I don't believe there's multiple cops, I really don't.

[Mathdino]

VOTE: Sonic Boom

Don't believe you.

[Mathdino]

I don't believe Sonic's a cop.

[Mathdino]

That entire argument is WIFOM unfortunately. Voided flipped sane cop. The only way to avoid the multiple cops scenario is to impilcitly claim non-sane cop.

[Mathdino]

He was scummy enough prior to his claim to warrant voting him. I just don't believe the claim.

[Mathdino]

Do I need to mention how bad the above post is?

[Mathdino]

General apathy about the game. Still want to lynch Sonic and ProHawk, basically nothing's changed about my reads since D1.

Want to note how terrible Sonic's reads on Nazarene, istott, guille, and me are. Might as well respond to his read on me:
"not scumhunting", "posts are full of nothing": Yes, you cherry picked a joke post, an intent to hammer post, and 2 posts that I think were good. Congratulations.
"He is going with the flow like textbook scum. Also, bulbazak made some case against him which I didn't read.": Wtf even is this.
"Prohawk specifically mentioned that anybody using balance to find scum, IS scum.": Right, and because he said it and I continued to do it, it must be true. Did you expect I'd just shut up and listen to my top scumread telling me all setup speccers are scum?

Edit: Yeah?

[Mathdino]

Yo mollie, why the vote?

Yo DGB, what's your current read on Sonic?

[Mathdino]

Other than the fact that you think Fenix is scum?

Idk, this game's come to a standstill, we could use some discussion.

[Mathdino]

Helpful. :/

[Mathdino]

I'm not scum. istott's town as previously established. DGB, eh, null, can't really read her. Fenix is probably scum if you end up being town. Nazarene, eh, could also go either way, more likely to be town.

More specificity please.

[Mathdino]

Where'd 3 cops come from?

[Mathdino]

6 man scumteam, seems legit. Quit with the scare tactics.

[Mathdino]

So both guille and Fenix are scum for voting you, but guille was on Voided's wagon and Fenix wasn't? I don't understand how that means anything.

[Mathdino]

I wasn't aware this game is about what I'd rather believe. I'd rather believe we had 2 cops, but I don't believe this and everything surrounding that claim was awfully convenient.

Your confbiasing is turning into scare tactics. "Don't make the same mistake as yesterday" is not valid.

Also I think a lot of Voided's lynch ended up being a deadline thing.

[Mathdino]

What the fuck dude.

[Mathdino]

Nazarene, I have proof you are scum, Claim now.

All votes today should be between me and Naz.

/phonepostinh

[Mathdino]

Mfw no one's posted since I made that post.

Nazarene

, if a claim isn't in the next 3 of your posts, I WILL lynch you no matter what you claim afterwards.

guille is not going to be today's lynch.

[Mathdino]

istott's town, mollie is town, ika is town, DGB leans town.

Nazarene is scum.

Remaining scum is in ProHawk, Fenix, and guille, in descending order of likeliness. Should reread the thread with an ISO of Sonic/Nazarene/(those 3 players) and find out before this day ends and I get NK'd..

[Mathdino]

Either way Nazarene gets lynched either today or tomorrow. If I'm scum this is pretty much a suicidal tactic to pray my partner survives to LyLo. I have no reason to believe I'd be lynched today otherwise, especially with Bulbazak dead.

That said, not sure on the chances that ProHawk would be the first to jump on me if he knows Nazarene's scum. Should read Fenix.

[Mathdino]

Actually, from my standpoint and mine alone, I have reason to think this game's role madness is entirely derivative of information-gaining and information-fuckingwith roles (a miller, a 'lawyer', and since I still believe istott, a 1-shot miller). Would not be surprised if guille is fakeclaiming.

Would prefer that no one other than me and istott discuss this possibility.

[Mathdino]

I don't think I'm gonna have enough time to analyse the last 5 pages before the deadline, but I don't believe there's multiple cops, I really don't.

VOTE: Sonic Boom

Don't believe you.

What up.

Guess why I didn't believe Voided and later Sonic?

Maybe because 3 investigatives is a leeeetle bit unlikely?

[Mathdino]

guille is probably the last scum.

Who did you target N1?

[Mathdino]

Also why the hell would you target ika?

[Mathdino]

You're already pretty scummy, you haven't been killed when you can't self protect, and I find your claim to be not very believable with the information I currently have.

[Mathdino]

I want Nazarene to give a full claim and say what happened last night before I vote them.

[Mathdino]

Target Fenix tonight. If no one dies, we have our last scum.

[Mathdino]

Meanwhile I'll find out if you're scum tonight.

[Mathdino]

1. Nazarene (TierShift+Aegor)
2. EddieFenix
3. ProHawk
4. ika
5. Mathdino
6. guille2015
7. pirate mollie
8. eyestott
9. DrippingGoofball

The last scum in order of likelihood:
1. guille
2. Fenix
3. ProHawk
4. DGB
5. ika
6. mollie
7. eyestott
If there are any investigative roles left, feel free to check and make sure I'm not bussing a scumbuddy here.
guille jails Fenix, I inv guille. If no one dies, last scum is Fenix. If I die, lynch guille. After that if game not over, lynch ProHawk, we win.
AFTER that, it'll be between DGB and ika.

[Mathdino]

I believe Nazarene or Sonic likely sent in the kill N1. Given your level of suspicion, it wouldn't be a good idea for scum to have you send the kill.

ika is 3rd last on my list of scum, lol.

Here's the thing. With 1 scum left, roleblocking them should mean no one dies that night. With 3 scum, anyone could've done it.

[Mathdino]

Also I like how you're voting me for thinking I'm not paying attention. Like you don't even think I'm scum.

[Mathdino]

From your collective perspectives, within the next 2 days you'll have 1 scum bagged. If Naz is lynched today, it's 6v1 and if me and then Naz, it's 4v1.

Is there any drawback to a massroleclaim at this point (after Nazarene shows up ofc)? I propose the following order:

1. Nazarene
2. Mathdino
3. Fenix
4. ProHawk
5. DGB
6. ika
7. mollie

Might be able to deduce the last scum just from night actions.

[Mathdino]

Nazarene is literally the only player that is alive and hasn't posted today.

Wtf. Checking to see if they're site active.

[Mathdino]

Both of them have been online since I outed them.

VOTE: Nazarene

[Mathdino]

why are we not mass claiming right now?

dino you know theres one giant flaw in your plan? ill say what it is but i want to see if you know first

I don't know what it is.

[Mathdino]

All I know is Nazarene is claiming before anyone else.

[Mathdino]

What's your point, ika?

[Mathdino]

You are claiming because I have proof you're scum. Now claim in your next post or you will be lynched.

[Mathdino]

Nazarene, I swear to god, one of us is going to be lynched today if you keep up that shit.

Claim.

Now.

There's an off chance that you're not scum depending on this claim and night actions.

Again, claim in next post or I'll out you and lynch you no matter what you claim afterwards.

[Mathdino]

You claim, then I claim, then Fenix claims, then ProHawk claims, then DGB, then ika, then mollie. Mkay? Mkay.

[Mathdino]

Obviously. I'm not dumb enough to fakeclaim investigatives as town.

[Mathdino]

ffs

This is not an act and if I do not provide a fullclaim afterwards with a valid reason for my guilty AND Nazarene flips town, I'm scum.

[Mathdino]

You are aware that from my perspective, you're just priming a bullshit claim that doesn't result in the results I got last night so you can lynch me today and you tomorrow, correct?

This is not an act and if I do not provide a fullclaim afterwards with a valid reason for my guilty, I'm scum.

[Mathdino]

wtf is wrong with you

why does it matter so much that prohawk goes before you

just claim, the info isn't 100% definite, it's more like 99%. I want to see if this is the 1%.

Edit: Oh hell. I sent in a list of investigatives and none of them give me guilties. You're scum.

[Mathdino]

I am town Gunsmith.

Cop does not have guns, I'm not sure if gunsmith does. Nazarene has a gun, Bulbazak did not.

[Mathdino]

Yo mod, do gunsmiths have guns?

<<< This question was important enough to warrant a separate post to respond, thus, I have answered in post 1341. >>>

[Mathdino]

All types of millers show up innocent. I checked and only mafia (except Godfather) and vig has guns. I interpret that to mean any killing role with a gun (so not SK/werewolf).

I neglected to check to see how gunsmiths show up.

[Mathdino]

For those of you watching at home, this is why I said at the end of D1 that I didn't believe there was multiple cops right before I was getting ready to lynch Voided. This is why I spent most of D2 trying to lynch Sonic.

Also I feel my role balances out the cop and the tons of millers quite nicely.

Edit: ...then you're scum.

[Mathdino]

Nazarene, are you capable of killing?

[Mathdino]

I sent in the following list to the mod the moment I got my PM:

1. Cop
2. Doc
3. Vig
4. Jailkeeper
5. Tracker
6. Watcher
7. Mafia Goon
8. Mafia Godfather
9. Serial Killer
10. Any type of werewolf
11. Any type of alien
12. Dayvig
13. Cult Leader
14. Vanilla Cultist
15. Miller
16. 1-Shot Miller
17. 1-Shot Miller that a cop has investigated
18. Mason
19. Bodyguard
20. Mafia Ninja
21. Survivor
22. Role Cop
23. Traitor
24. Vengeful Townie
25. Roleblocker
26. Thief
27. Inventor
28. Anyone with an X-Shot Cop
29. Anyone with an X-Shot Vig

Of these, all types of vig and all types of mafia except for godfather show up as scum. Everything else, no. Mastin also said it's possible that someone without a gun could show as having a gun but I assume can't explain further.

[Mathdino]

No, because I have no idea wtf she was talking about. A gun framer or something? Idk.

[Mathdino]

Oh, okay, I reread it and it reads like it was talking about something like godfather, which obviously does have a gun but shows as not having one. So I'm confident the information I was given on the above list is honest.

[Mathdino]

Addendum: I did not send that list after getting my role PM, I sent it after Jackel's claim. Memory lapse.

I doubt there's more than one lawyer, but if you can come up with anything else that explains your innocence, feel free.

[Mathdino]

VOTE: MathDino

Thanks for making my job easy.

Guile, who did you keep? via PoE, this can make things much easier.

vote Nazarene

I agree I think guille is scum too.

VOTE: nazarene

This is everyone's response to me saying you're scum.

If we ARE both town, which I find unlikely, scum is relishing the fact that they can take us both out in 2 days.

[Mathdino]

If you think I'm town, then there's an explanation somewhere. Like you said, mass rolecall will help. That said, everyone's posted since I called a guilty on you and no one's admitted to any shenanigans that made you look like you had a gun, soooo

New claim order:

1. ProHawk
2. Nazarene
3. Fenix
4. DGB
5. ika
6. mollie

[Mathdino]

We think that Guille is town. I've heard much 'but he can be scum jailkeeper' but no reasons, really.

Dino, can you explain why he isn't, according to you?
Mollie, same question.

And I'm going to change my previous statement:

if

we're massclaiming, we claim second after prohawk.

P-edit: not doing that.
-Tier

I have reason to believe this game is entirely investigatives and things that fuck up investigatives. So basically a 13 player dethy. As such, his claim doesn't really give him townpoints.

ProHawk and you are likely not scum together and we can test Fenix for scum tonight. If test checks out, guille is scum.

It's more PoE than anything. ika and mollie are insanely town, DGB is slightly less so, leaving guille, ProHawk, and Fenix.

[Mathdino]

Scum is in {Nazarene, Mathdino, ProHawk} and {Fenix, guille}.

ezpz
lynch who you please

[Mathdino]

Best part is if by some freak chance Nazarene flips town, scum will have to kill me because I can confirm which of Fenix/guille is scum. Unless guille succeeds at roleblocking ofc.

Regardless, this game is easy street from here.

[Mathdino]

Well I'm speaking from ika/DGB/your perspectives unless you have information that shows otherwise. Every time I decide not to include myself in these lists, someone's always like "HURR DURR YOU MIGHT BE SCUM" so I figured, might as well.

Regardless, if we lynch Nazarene and they flip scum, guille can jail Fenix and we'll find out who's the last scum by tomorrow.
If Nazarene flips town, I'll check guille and ProHawk will be confscum.

[Mathdino]

Actually yeah I just realised I can't be scum from your perspective. One of Fenix and guille is lying and thus scum. So if Naz is scum, I'm cleared, and if Naz is town, it's highly likely last scum is ProHawk. Done.

[Mathdino]

New claim order:

1. ProHawk
2. Nazarene
3. FENIX YOU'LL HAVE TO CLAIM AT SOME POINT
4. ika
5. mollie

Either way, I believe at this stage we're micro size, so it'll take 2 mislynches to get us down to LyLo and that's ignoring the vast amount of information we have by now. We're set. Again, lynch whoever you please.

[Mathdino]

gee i wonder

[Mathdino]

Asked mastin for the info in a PM, awaiting response.

[Mathdino]

Now we force ProHawk to claim or die. Ika, if anything you know can solve the game or halfway do so, go right ahead. Otherwise, yeah, wait just in case someone claims your role.

[Mathdino]

Dino, if you happen to be town, your logic is horrendous and wrong. And you are pushing a mass-claim for what will not help town.

At best you are anti-town, but your actions and words just play into scum's hands. FWIW mollie is not anywhere NEAR super-duper-town.

Then refute it. Fenix/guille logic is solid, someones lying. Massclaim solves the game dethy style.

Edit: Sweet, guille increasingly scum.

[Mathdino]

I dont know the mechanics of it. Its possible theres a gun framer or some shit.

UNVOTE:
Need to read thread, on phone

[Mathdino]

Oh lol I thought more thread had past than it did.
Here's the thing.
guille claims jailkeeper who blocked Fenix, Fenix says he wasn't blocked. Unless guille HIMSELF was roleblocked, which seems unlikely in a game full of investigatives, one of them is scum.

I'm a gunsmith and Nazarene has a gun. Nazarene claims investigative, and since I have an innocent on Bulbazak (after it said millers show up inno to me), I know I'm either sane or random.

Nazarene claims a guilty on ProHawk, who won't claim but seems to think Nazarene is insane or in some way not sane.

Nazarene, is there any possibility that you're not sane?

And ika is something investigative.

Basically, the only way we can figure this shit out is massclaim. I hoped ProHawk would be willing to cooperate after being threatened to lynch but it looks like he's just being an idiot here. Nazarene won't claim until ProHawk does, however, and ika needs to be able to claim AFTER Fenix who needs to be able to claim AFTER Nazarene, so this entire chain needs to start at ProHawk.
tl;dr PROHAWK STOP BEING A DUMBASS
MOLLIE AND I CAN'T BOTH BE SCUM
LISTEN TO ONE OF US IF YOU WON'T LISTEN TO BOTH
I do want to note that I really appreciate the fact that ProHawk repeatedly says anyone trying to solve the game with balance is scum, but then tries to solve the Nazarene guilty claim with balance. At the moment I'm leaning ProHawk scum and shenanigans on Nazarene but it's possible ProHawk is being total VI.

Regardless, I do NOT want a lynch today until massclaim happens. We need to coordinate night actions, a la Dethy, to solve this.

[Mathdino]

What are the chances that mafia have a roleblocker and blocked guille?

[Mathdino]

Does anyone have evidence of having been roleblocked at all this game?

[Mathdino]

dino how can prohawk be a dumbass and scum at the same time? I mean calling some1 a "dumbass" implies that you think they are dumbass town and you are talking to him like you think he is town but then you call him scum a few sentences later???

Because if he's scum nothing I do can appeal to him. If he's town, he's being a dumbass, but unfortunately that's the side I have to appeal to in order to get him to claim and cooperate.

I'm leaning scum on him if he continues to refuse to cooperate but honestly, I'm really not sure.

[Mathdino]

okay, this makes sense. I think he is scum for entirely different reasons. his pushes are all wrong and my credibility is called into question cos I attacked his skill level when he did the same to dgb. there is a cog-dis there that does not sit right with me.

why are you questioning your guilty on nazarene (aside from framer paranoia) did she do something townie that makes you doubt it? I thought her exchanges with you looked pretty townish but I cannot ignore the d1 sheeping and her denial of it taking place.

Well I mean I've been scumreading him literally the entire game until my guilty on Nazarene and now this calls it into question since they can't BOTH be scum (assuming, once again, there is scum in Fenix/guille). Had I not gotten that guilty, I'd be voting ProHawk out the gate today (was actually expecting town result on Nazarene, I like inving active strong players who aren't obvious town or gonna get lynched anyway). So yeah I have 0 disagreement with your scumread on ProHawk.

And yeah it's pretty much just framer paranoia and the fact that I was seriously expecting them to realise I was gunsmith and claim vig or just outright call me scum, which they didn't. Nazarene was a light townread before the guilty and today they've done nothing to change that outside of role madness.

Again, want massclaim before I do anything.

[Mathdino]

Given the vast swaths of investigatives, would not be at all surprised if mafia had 1 role that fucked with cops, 1 that fucked with gunsmiths, and maybe a roleblocker/rolecop and a faction kill. And if I were framer, Nazarene would certainly be my target.

[Mathdino]

ProHawk WHY THE FUCK ARE YOU NOT CLAIMING

WE CAN SOLVE THE GAME INSTANTLY IF EVERYONE CLAIMS

[Mathdino]

dino I think there is a good chance your view is legit. I am not sold on the nazarene/prohawk can't both be scum theory. he acknowledges that you have a guilty on nazarene, acknowledges that you might be town but is voting you over nazarene.

this is what i mean his pushes don't make sense.

also the only 1s who are claiming an investigative role is you so where is this "swath of investigative roles" that you speak of cos only voided has flipped cop and ika is saying that he isn't.

That still doesn't explain the guille/Fenix shenanigans. The only explanation is one of Nazarene/ProHawk is roleblocker and blocked guille repeatedly.

I want Fenix's results.

After I want Nazarene's results of course.

AFTER I WANT PROHAWK'S RESULTS OMFG

HE'S PLAYING LIKE A JESTER

[Mathdino]

not really, im not investigative but i do know my role impacts investigation

ill leave it at that for now

wld your role allow you to know if you were jked?

and to add to this question, how does your role impact investigation?

This is a shit question, ika's not fullclaiming until everyone else does.

[Mathdino]

Lemme actually push something that makes sense.

VOTE: Mollie

We can't solve anything except give Scum ammo to shoot people with Dino.

FWIW, Mollie still hasn't explained why she is quasi-IC and instead decides to push me as some cog-dis confused idiot, dumb person.

no, this doesn't make sense.

I said that sonic boom's interaction with me makes me practically IC. like you even quoted the post where i said this.

you are scum hawk boy. plain and simple.

@ dino

okay I am absorbing that you got an inno on bulba who was a miller and a guilty on nazarene. I am kind of thinking this might confirm nazarene as town.

I don't think we need to massclaim I think we can do just fine with the info we have now but I am all for pressure (actually I just want to lynch him) on prohawk cos he is scummy as fuck.

VOTE: prohawk

No, no, no, I asked mastin D1 whether miller have guns and she said millers do NOT show as having guns. I'm the role that counters all the millers in this game, I'm (AFAIK) the only one who can confirm millers as town.

[Mathdino]

ika is nowhere near a suspect, we don't want town to claim before mafia because it just gives mafia more info.

[Mathdino]

HEY SCUM
I'M GONNA INVESTIGATE A RANDOM PERSON IN THE SUSPECT LIST
LITERALLY ROLLING A DIE
INCLUDES NAZARENE

glhf framer.

[Mathdino]

ika, weren't you the one trying to solve thesp's BM game?

Any thoughts on the gamestate? Any ideas we haven't thought of?

[Mathdino]

okay so walk me through this dino

you think that it is more likely that there wld be a gun framer in addition to a sane cop framer? we already had a lawyer/tailor flip and we lynched him so he did not get in a night action for n2.

walk me through this plz

There's clearly a ton of town roles, DGB is literally the only claimed VT so far. I mean hell, there's a doc AND a cop in the same game, along with a gunsmith, ika's role, and 2 of
{ProHawk's role, jailkeeper, Nazarene's role, Fenix's role}

Mafia needs pretty much all PRs in order to balance this; either that or non-killing 3rd party. And in a game full of millers and framer, gunsmith is probably the most OP role. So I think it's perfectly reasonable that there'd be a gun framer and a cop framer. Lawyer definitely doesn't affect me, no way a lawyer would make someone look like they have a gun, lol.

[Mathdino]

ika, you and I should claim intent to hammer on ProHawk if he doesn't claim. This game can't move forward without A. the claim or B. his lynch.

guille, jail Fenix again and see what happens. Don't want to risk jailing anyone else.

Intent to hammer ProHawk

Gonna roll a die between investigating Nazarene again, ProHawk, Fenix, and guille.

Edit: The guilty on ProHawk and ProHawk's behaviour this entire game and especially today.

[Mathdino]

we don't want town to claim before mafia because it just gives mafia more info.

Dude, from the perspectives of {ika, mollie, DGB}, setting aside any conspiracy theories as to scum shenanigans, there is 1 scum in {Nazarene, Mathdino, ProHawk} and 1 in {Fenix, guille}.

Which confirms ika, mollie, and DGB as town.

[Mathdino]

I'll hammer ProHawk if he doesn't claim after Nazarene gets on and discusses past results.

Nazarene

: ProHawk's gonna be dead anyway, no reason to hide your role to make sure he doesn't tailor his claim to one that gets a guilty from you.

Edit: Nazarene has an almost-guilty on ProHawk that becomes full-guilty if ProHawk doesn't claim some specific roles apparently.

[Mathdino]

Have you not been reading the thread? ISO Nazarene...

[Mathdino]

Oh yeah mastin still hasn't answered those questions.

[Mathdino]

We think that Guille is town. I've heard much 'but he can be scum jailkeeper' but no reasons, really.

Dino, can you explain why he isn't, according to you?
Mollie, same question.

And I'm going to change my previous statement:

if

we're massclaiming, we claim second after prohawk.

Scum probably is within [dino;EF;hawk]

with a slight chance of [mollie;dgb].

EF is where I want to be voting unless dino is going to keep up his act.

VOTE: EF

Look, buddy, my role PM says town. You don't feel like scum suiciding (nor do I understamd why they would), but you ARE saying that you have definite information that I'm scum, which I'm just fucking not.

That's my perspective.

Since we're doing massclaim, prohawk goes before us.

And before you say I'm stalling,

I am an investigative role with a non-definitive guilty on prohawk. It might be definitive, however, depending on what he claims.

We're nothing else than an investigative role and that should probably tell you enough for you to reveal what you're doing.

No, but

I do believe I'm insane.

Insane people probably don't get guns.

[Mathdino]

Ika - Null (chewing the fat and thinking. Cause nothing springs out as to fall on either side of the spectrum imo)
Sonic Boom - Town/Null (purely gut on this one)

Explain in more detail both of these. Also explain how gut compels you to read the heads differently.

@guille:

Do you mind explaining your reads on ika and SonicBoom, given that you clearly have way more conviction than almost anyone else? The SB one is obvious given recent posts, but I would like to know your basis when you entered the game.

@Bulb:

Do you actually believe the claim? What reasons do you have for voting EF given that posts 448 ff. seem to suggest an associative tell between them; or should I take the vote as an accusation that EF is whiteknighting the SB slot? I am a bit confused about your thought process.

I am really not sure whether the cop claim is enough to ignore OMGUS nonsense, whatever this is, and this. Having played with MS, I have experienced slews of random posts, but the most recent ones are just scummy.

VOTE: SonicBoom

My other head is more apprehensive because of the claim, but I am simply not buying it.

-A

This Head is very disappointed with this deadline wagon. This Head hates all deadline wagons.

This Head is even more disappointed that obv-scum SB is not being lynched because he claimed a PR, which is setting a precedent that makes it easy for scum to get through Day 1 intact.

Nevertheless, the Heads want a lynch, but this Head at least will be on before deadline, so the Heads currently have no interest in changing our vote.

Vote voided.

-A

828 is fundamentally correct and at the worst we net a scum in SB, who should have been lynched anyway.

Again, are you aware that this game may have multiple cops?

Possible =/= likely. I would be more than willing to bet my Head and my other Head that if you flip cop, SB will flip scum. The point is that I am 60-40 against believing your claim and 100-0 against believing SB's. The fact that multiple cops may exist is irrelevant if I happen not to believe the claims in the first place. And my other Head is pretty sure you are scum. I would rather have SB's head in the noose. Especially given that we replaced a claimed cop with a claimed cop.

-A

VOTE: Sonic Boom

I do not know why this day has not ended yet.

-A

I could see myself voting EF over sonic boom but I'm definitely not townreading SB and I don't see him living both today and tomorrow.
So I'd rather get it over with.

Plus, aegor seems hell-bent on lynching SB.
-Tier

If you read these, it fits very well with them being an investigative and having issues believing SB and Voided. Very very well. Especially since Sonic pretty much claimed insane cop and Nazarene believe themselves to be insane.

[Mathdino]

Lol I actually get more active in loud games when playerlist gets smaller.

Anyway I got a ton of info from the PM. To paraphrase:

1. Gunsmiths investigate as guilty to each other. That said, there's no other gunsmith in this game so who cares.
2. Insanity doesn't alter the results of other investigatives on them. In other words, insane cop isn't gonna be more suspicious to a cop/gunsmith than a sane one.
3. It's possible that there are insane roles other than cop. Now, I know I'm not insane because of Bulba, so that's also kinda moot.
4. So apparently I don't fall under the category of 'cop' but rather 'cop variant', and lawyers will say in their role PM whether their role fucks with cops and variants or just cops. Checking mafia lawyer flip now.

[Mathdino]

Sonic Boom

,

Mafia

Lawyer

,

Lynched Day Two

.

<<< What's a lawyer? Yeah, well, funny you should ask that. See that quip at the beginning of the game about me not having gotten any reviewers? That, uh, extended to the role name. I had a specific role in mind and knew it was an established role, however, I just so happened to misremember what said name was. Sonic Boom was a tailor. Below is the relevant exert from their role PM. >>>

During the night, you may target a player. That player will show up as the opposite alignment to a cop as they should. (A town result becomes a scum result; a scum result becomes a town result.)

Sorry for any confusion this may have caused.

Lawyer does not fuck with me.

[Mathdino]

where do I fit in with this?

I forgot you existed, sorry. In the townpool.

What are the chances that mafia have a roleblocker and blocked guille?

There is also the possibility of a redirector type power around. I have considered it earlier or me being blocked is the only explanation of any discrepancy.

I have no indication that my power is a dud. But If anybody was blocked N1, that may be indicative of a re-director.

The interesting part about Eddie is that He claimed N1 action after I said I targeted him. This is not something scum tend to do. Much less this early in the game.

Having Eddie and I target each other (with whatever Eddie has) should Proof something. He will get blocked and Confirm my power, or if I get intercepted in some way, he can confirm a guilty or innocence on me. Just food for thought here.

I doubt that Math is not sane. If there is a redirector, then this situation sucks. The tailor died before N2, so he couldn't have done much about a gun. Gun Framer also a possibility. So, then go with interactions.

@everyone: Do you find it likely that Sonic's buddies would vote on him or not yesterday?

My thoughts are yes, so In my mind I think that those outside have a less chance of being his buddy.

Ooh, the redirector idea is good. The issue is that no one's shown any indication of being roleblocked.

I don't like Fenix targeting you, seems pointless. Let him target who he wants so scum can't mess with it. I'm already randomising my target just in case Nazarene was framed. I would highly suggest you jail Fenix again though.

The situation I see here is that Math Has a maybe Guilty on Nazarene. Nazarene has a Maybe guilty on Prohawk. It seems math's guilty is more solid. If nazarene claims before Prohawk, Prohawk would loose all credibility.

Disagree, I think my guilty on ProHawk's way more solid because

I absolutely refuse to claim. If enough people want me dead enough to put me at L-1 and legitimately want to lynch me, I will claim. Then the dumb loss you all will suffer (or joyful exuberance if you are scum) will be on your hands and not mine.

My read on ProHawk overpowers my read on Nazarene by far. mollie or ika should vote ProHawk, I want to deliver the intent to hammer. At that point I think Nazarene should fullclaim with results because it doesn't look like ProHawk's claim will save him (otherwise he'd have claimed already IMO).

[Mathdino]

EBWOP: Nazarene's guilty on ProHawk's way more solid

[Mathdino]

Yeah at this point I have no intention of lynching Nazarene, I'm very much thinking gun framer is what happened.

[Mathdino]

Why am I scum Dino? Because I won't claim?

Please outline your case.

You want me to make another case after the first one's immense popularity?

1. Before I cased it and people caught on, never have you ever produced any original content this game. I mean hell, DGB produces more substance than you do.
2. You vote me as soon as I stop voting you for bullshit reasons that Sonic later tried to state as objectively true.
3. Your first post of content (a case on my use of 'un-cc'd') was a bullshit argument about semantics to try to lynch the person with most suspicion on you. This argument is continued here which is sensationalistic and literally logically fallacious.
4. Your entire interaction with mollie is weird as hell, I can expand on this if anyone likes but this is one of my lesser points.
5. Your entire D2 play (before you said thanksgiving was giving you issues, which is cool) consisted of voting me, interacting with Sonic, and a couple questions to istott.
6. Your D3 start was so goddamn opportunistic and allowed you to coast on the fact that I said votes should be between me and Naz while once again contributing jackshit when you weren't in any danger of being lynched for it.
7. Your atrocious statement that massclaim is anti town at this stage in the game. Which you back up with a statement that, lo and behold, uses balance to make an argument (the idea that fakeclaims must be airtight).
8. A point simply because I can, but 1443 is absolute balls and is basically putting yourself on the same pedestal as the NK'd guy.
[...]
[...]
999. Nazarene has a guilty on you.
1000. You won't claim.

Your not claiming is the last reason you're scum.

[Mathdino]

ProHawk - 1 (DrippingGoofBall)
Nazarene - 1 (guille2015)
EddieFenix - 1 (Nazarene)
guille2015 - 1 (EddieFenix)
pirate mollie - 1 (ProHawk)

Not Voting - 4 (ika, eyestott, Mathdino, pirate mollie)

With 9 alive, it's 5 to lynch.

In all seriousness, this votecount sucks (NOT YOU MASTIN).

<<< You nearly gave me a heart attack there, Dino. >>>

The issue of guille and Fenix is one that can be worked out tonight via night action. As such people should not be voting them.

Nazarene

and

Fenix

should make a case or change their vote.

mollie is a terrible vote, there's no reason to think she's a reasonable lynch candidate today, and ProHawk's made no effort to push her.

ProHawk

should make a case or change his vote.

Meanwhile, ika and eyestott aren't doing much. ika almost voted ProHawk back there but then didn't. And eyestott's had 0 thoughts on the game outside balance.

ika

should vote so we can move the day forward.

eyestott

should do something. While the miller stuff is nice and probably proves you even more town, it's still not helpful. Please give reads and your current thoughts on the situation. Personally I'd like to force a claim out of ProHawk and if Nazarene doesn't give the go-ahead on him we lynch, but seriously, come to some sort of conclusion.

DGB and guille are cool.

[Mathdino]

Not gonna happen, not feasible at all. No one's going to claim until ProHawk does.

Do you have any reads?

[Mathdino]

Great, so if he doesn't claim and no one has any other content to produce, we can go ahead and lynch him. The entire game is waiting on working out wtf happened last night and in lieu of that I say we lynch
A. the scummiest person (IMO) and
B. the guy holding the damn game up.

Unless you've got any better ideas (massclaim before ProHawk claims isn't a good one, it's not that hard to come up with a quick fakeclaim), then this game is gonna be at a standstill for a loooong time. Majority of the game is voteparking on someone that won't get lynched with the current level of effort they're putting into it or just not voting.

[Mathdino]

Im bewildered as to why Naz didnt just ask Hawk if he targeted anyone or even who he targeted. I was under the impression the specific role would change the interpretation of the results.

Its Fenixs turn btw.

[Mathdino]

Im bewildered as to why Naz didnt just ask Hawk if he targeted anyone or even who he targeted. I was under the impression the specific role would change the interpretation of the results.

Not sure why I am actually agreeing with this, but its a sane comment.

What I don't get is why he still thinks this is town given HIS night results.

VOTE: Dino

Also, because I believe that town still may have some saving role-grace aside from me, I motion to stop said mass claim and kill the people calling for it.

You missed the fact that if I wasn't on my phone that would be a more fleshed out scumread. I want Nazarene to respond to this before I decide.

[Mathdino]

Also, because I believe that town still may have some saving role-grace aside from me, I motion to stop said mass claim and kill the people calling for it.

Dino thinks I'm giving up my role and I'm not.

Do you have any useful results? If not, I can understand, but if so, would recommend giving them. The role isn't really the most important part of this, it's the night actions and discoveries.

[Mathdino]

You don't even believe your own results and you want other people to claim their own.

What are you hoping to accomplish here? Solve a puzzle?

When scum can modify results to whatever they very-well please. RESULTS ARE WIFOM.

Yes.

Also, because I believe that town still may have some saving role-grace aside from me, I motion to stop said mass claim and kill the people calling for it.

Dino thinks I'm giving up my role and I'm not.

Do you have any useful results? If not, I can understand, but if so, would recommend giving them. The role isn't really the most important part of this, it's the night actions and discoveries.

Useful result was night 1 and we lynched that the next day.

Thanks, that's good enough.

If I had to call the scumteam at this point, it'd be Nazarene/guille. I really don't understand how they needed fullclaim as a

tracker

; was under the impression they were a role similar to gunsmith where the role determines results, not actions.

[Mathdino]

Yo DGB, what's the scum motivation in claiming to be a role that wasn't roleblocked? If Fenix pulls a lynch on guille through, all it does is make him die tomorrow. Fenix was under no pressure to claim contrary to guille's actions.

[Mathdino]

I dunno yet, is why I'm not voting; the game's moving forward again. Just a question to consider.

Like I said, I'd go with Nazarene/guille personally.

[Mathdino]

thoughts

on?

i have a lot so i can either do an entire basic info dump, or specfics on someone

I'd like to know which claims you believe and which you're iffy on.

Would also like to know your reads list completely disregarding roles and night actions.

Also want to know your thoughts on mollie, DGB, and eyestott, since that group of players is my blindspot at the moment.

eyestott

, still want thoughts on anything. Preferably other than conspiracy theories.

Edit: Believe it or not, I'm actually townreading him for this; I think as scum with such an airtight fakeclaim that he thinks scum has, he'd take the time to actually explain how his role works. If it's true, I think he's more likely to assume that we'd understand how it works without further explanation.

[Mathdino]

@ dino

erm...eyesore DID take the time to explain exactly how his role works?

Yeah and he's my strongest townread.

That doesn't excuse not really doing anything or responding to current events. Just want him to engage.

[Mathdino]

Cool, thanks. If you need questions to answer, would suggest the ones I asked ika above (replacing your name with ika's obv).

[Mathdino]

Spoiler: Nazarene's Bulbazak References D2

Hi guys

I think it's probably a good idea to lynch sonicboom today. I'm not reading him as town for his claim (hell, it doesn't even match up with voided's cop role, not even talking about his townread copping :/) and he's playing the 'can't lynch me I claimed cop'-card. Which makes no sense.

Do you have anything to back your claim up, sonic?

To do list:
- read bulba's mathdino argument
- form opinion on ika/mollie/EF

-Tier

The bulba-dino fight looks like TvT to me (fitting smiley! TvT! ) so you guys should cut it out.

why?

2. The below is ProHawk's 605:

Spoiler: 605

For my wall, I am going to start back to where things get interesting... around claim time.

Right after the claim -->

Bulb unvotes Sonic.
Nazarine votes Sonic.
Shos unvotes Sonic and calls Nazarine scum for voting Sonic.
DGB unvotes Sonic.
Eddie votes Sonic.
DGB joins the "Voting Sonic is ScumClaiming" clan.
Dino defends Sonic, the "un-cc'd cop".
DGB backs him up.
Dino votes Fenix for voting Sonic.
Guille talks about needing a counter-claim.

So here is what caught my eye (since I didn't explain myself properly the first time apparently). This is a closed game. We don't know what roles are. Speculation abounds, and likelihood/probability/percentages help with trying to figure stuff out. I get that. But when Dino said something about the cop being un-counter-claimed, that drew red flags up for me.

Because:

A) Why would a cop counter-claim even if he were in the game?
B) We don't know if there are multiple cops in the setup, which would also invalidate that insinuation (that another cop claim would be COUNTER to the original claim)
C) This game is listed as unbalanced/bastard/whatever, which would fly in the face of logic when trying to solve the game with claims and counter-claims. Red-Herring roles?

What this looks like to me, especially on a re-read of the whole situation:

Scum getting run up. The go-to-claim to fish for a potentially devastating role is cop. So he claims cop and runs with it. His buddies are trying to help the fishing along by

calling for a counter claim

. OR

In the event that Sonic actually is a Cop:

Scum are also capitalizing on the "lets find other cops and call for counter-claims"

Let it be known that all of

Dino, DGB, and Guille

want a counter claim to Sonic's claim.

I underlined the misreps for you. He came up with a conspiracy theory in which 3 people are asking for a CC, which is simply not true. This is misrepping. Not ONCE did I say that I was calling for a counterclaim today.

do you think prohawk is scum for it?

Blegh I'm going through your ISO and see PbPa yuck
What is your current read on prohawk and why is sonic boom scummier? (with a little explanation please)

Stop rolefishing DGB.

@Mollie: We have 2 on Ika so far. With you, it's 3. ProHawk, Sonic, and Guille will join, making it 6. I think we could get that last vote easily.

Also your "rolefishing" accusations are frivolous. We are one hour from deadline.

And you want to force a claim. I don't think I'm far off if a claim is your primary concern.

This line of reasoning is dumb. You should want a claim from the biggest wagon when you're close to deadline.

There is no way this playlist is as dumb as we are playing.

?

No, I'm saying that Dino-scum pushed a player for an easy non-reason and that his "case" contained absolutely zero analysis. All it did was look convincing, but upon closer inspection, there was no substance. At no point have I suggested that such a move is incompetent. In fact, it'd be the opposite. You're the one who's saying that Dino is not skilled enough to fake a case.

This Head

is suggesting that it is indicative of incompetence. This Head has not reached this conclusion by asserting that Dino is not skilled enough to make a case. This Head has used Dino's ISO as justification for that assertion. You are confusing the chain of reasoning.

This discussion will not be productive; we should stop.

I do not even know what you guys are talking about. :/

Eddie, give me a reads list while you're here.

Town

Bulba
Me
Our Jailkeeper (name escapes me right now)

Null
ika
DGB

Scum
Sonic

Working on my project for college. Gonna dive back into that cause I've been at it for about 8+ hours now and I need to go back because I keep getting ideas and remembering things. You give me colors my good man XD

ok, so...
Eddie isn't doing shit and hops on the most likely lynch
bulb asks for a readslist
eddie immediately gives a naked readslist.
yeah....

eddie what is wrong with u

Literally half the players are missing from his "reads" list.

What's wrong with Eddie is that he got a scum role PM.

This player gets figured out by day 3

What do you mean? Why don't you want to figure her out now?

Nazarene - He would be in my townreads, but he is voting me currently. Why would he vote an obvtown claimed cop?

lol

This Sonic Boom wagon is rubbish.

why?

I ctrl+F'd 'Bulbazak' in Nazarene's ISO and got the above posts. None of them give any indication that Bulba was investigated. In fact Naz mostly ignored Bulba for D2.
Definitely leaving hard toward Naz.

[Mathdino]

Spoiler: Nazarene's Bulbazak References D2

Hi guys

I think it's probably a good idea to lynch sonicboom today. I'm not reading him as town for his claim (hell, it doesn't even match up with voided's cop role, not even talking about his townread copping :/) and he's playing the 'can't lynch me I claimed cop'-card. Which makes no sense.

Do you have anything to back your claim up, sonic?

To do list:
- read bulba's mathdino argument
- form opinion on ika/mollie/EF

-Tier

The bulba-dino fight looks like TvT to me (fitting smiley! TvT! ) so you guys should cut it out.

why?

2. The below is ProHawk's 605:

For my wall, I am going to start back to where things get interesting... around claim time.

Right after the claim -->

Bulb unvotes Sonic.
Nazarine votes Sonic.
Shos unvotes Sonic and calls Nazarine scum for voting Sonic.
DGB unvotes Sonic.
Eddie votes Sonic.
DGB joins the "Voting Sonic is ScumClaiming" clan.
Dino defends Sonic, the "un-cc'd cop".
DGB backs him up.
Dino votes Fenix for voting Sonic.
Guille talks about needing a counter-claim.

So here is what caught my eye (since I didn't explain myself properly the first time apparently). This is a closed game. We don't know what roles are. Speculation abounds, and likelihood/probability/percentages help with trying to figure stuff out. I get that. But when Dino said something about the cop being un-counter-claimed, that drew red flags up for me.

Because:

A) Why would a cop counter-claim even if he were in the game?
B) We don't know if there are multiple cops in the setup, which would also invalidate that insinuation (that another cop claim would be COUNTER to the original claim)
C) This game is listed as unbalanced/bastard/whatever, which would fly in the face of logic when trying to solve the game with claims and counter-claims. Red-Herring roles?

What this looks like to me, especially on a re-read of the whole situation:

Scum getting run up. The go-to-claim to fish for a potentially devastating role is cop. So he claims cop and runs with it. His buddies are trying to help the fishing along by

calling for a counter claim

. OR

In the event that Sonic actually is a Cop:

Scum are also capitalizing on the "lets find other cops and call for counter-claims"

Let it be known that all of

Dino, DGB, and Guille

want a counter claim to Sonic's claim.

I underlined the misreps for you. He came up with a conspiracy theory in which 3 people are asking for a CC, which is simply not true. This is misrepping. Not ONCE did I say that I was calling for a counterclaim today.

do you think prohawk is scum for it?

Blegh I'm going through your ISO and see PbPa yuck
What is your current read on prohawk and why is sonic boom scummier? (with a little explanation please)

Stop rolefishing DGB.

@Mollie: We have 2 on Ika so far. With you, it's 3. ProHawk, Sonic, and Guille will join, making it 6. I think we could get that last vote easily.

Also your "rolefishing" accusations are frivolous. We are one hour from deadline.

And you want to force a claim. I don't think I'm far off if a claim is your primary concern.

This line of reasoning is dumb. You should want a claim from the biggest wagon when you're close to deadline.

There is no way this playlist is as dumb as we are playing.

?

No, I'm saying that Dino-scum pushed a player for an easy non-reason and that his "case" contained absolutely zero analysis. All it did was look convincing, but upon closer inspection, there was no substance. At no point have I suggested that such a move is incompetent. In fact, it'd be the opposite. You're the one who's saying that Dino is not skilled enough to fake a case.

This Head

is suggesting that it is indicative of incompetence. This Head has not reached this conclusion by asserting that Dino is not skilled enough to make a case. This Head has used Dino's ISO as justification for that assertion. You are confusing the chain of reasoning.

This discussion will not be productive; we should stop.

I do not even know what you guys are talking about. :/

Eddie, give me a reads list while you're here.

Town

Bulba
Me
Our Jailkeeper (name escapes me right now)

Null
ika
DGB

Scum
Sonic

Working on my project for college. Gonna dive back into that cause I've been at it for about 8+ hours now and I need to go back because I keep getting ideas and remembering things. You give me colors my good man XD

ok, so...
Eddie isn't doing shit and hops on the most likely lynch
bulb asks for a readslist
eddie immediately gives a naked readslist.
yeah....

eddie what is wrong with u

Literally half the players are missing from his "reads" list.

What's wrong with Eddie is that he got a scum role PM.

This player gets figured out by day 3

What do you mean? Why don't you want to figure her out now?

Nazarene - He would be in my townreads, but he is voting me currently. Why would he vote an obvtown claimed cop?

lol

This Sonic Boom wagon is rubbish.

why?

I ctrl+F'd 'Bulbazak' in Nazarene's ISO and got the above posts. None of them give any indication that Bulba was investigated. In fact Naz mostly ignored Bulba for D2.
Definitely leaving hard toward Naz.

FFS, FTFMe

[Mathdino]

One thing, though.
Matdino: I'm im your strongest townread, how did you forget me specifically in that post?

You were so town that I forgot to say you should be town.

[Mathdino]

Nah, he's enough of a suspect for mafia to forego killing him even if we no-lynch.

[Mathdino]

VOTE: mollie

just to make the votecount "111111". And cuz nothing else to do.

Nazarene get in here.

[Mathdino]

Mastin I request a 2nd votecount directly below this post just to satisfy my sense of votecount perfection.

[Mathdino]

^I approve of both of these posts.

eyestott, care to answer yesterpage's questions?

[Mathdino]

lol ika

not sure whether to feel special

[Mathdino]

That's actually a really good point about Nazarene. Insane tracker doesn't seem like it has much point in the first place. Am STILL at a loss as to why Naz didn't just ask ProHawk if he targeted anyone last night rather than asking for fullclaim. Will vote them after they come back and defend (and also after mastin gives another VC).

How bout the reads list question?

Edit: Okay, so that removes istott's possibility 2. It doesn't make sense for Fenix to claim they investigated someone even after being roleblocked even if he were a scum ascetic. Would be easier to just go with the JK claim.

[Mathdino]

ika can't solve the game because its freaking unbalanced, whodathunk?

Also, Dino is still scum.

These votes are garbage, and town as a collective whole is playing like garbage. What happened to general mafia strat? Why aren't we colluding to lynch someone?

1. ika and eyestott are the most likely players to break the game, actually. Unbalanced doesn't mean unsolvable. So far it looks unbalanced in town's favour.
2. What happened is
a. we colluded to lynch you but I believe your claim,
b. I'm waiting on Nazarene to get back before voting them, and
c. You might wanna change that to "Why aren't we colluding to lynch

someone

Mathdino?"

Quit complaining, it helps no one and it makes you look like an ass. General mafia strategy states that people don't DEFAULT to being scum, and you've yet to prove why I'm scum and why my actions are inconsistent with town.

[Mathdino]

Just going by the way you've been approaching the game and setup spec. ika is someone I recall having a certain penchant for setup spec and gamebreaking.

[Mathdino]

istott, a broken game is like a setup with 1 doc, 1 cop, 4 townies, and 2 goons. It's broken just by the cop claiming and doc protecting. Follow the Cop. So yeah, positive.

@ProHawk:
1. I find it fairly solid, you've yet to refute it. Hell, I'm IN the scum category. I find my logic to be valid objectively.
2. You're not a mind reader. Naz being scum is exactly my point of view right now. But I want to wait for them to come back and defend, because I still see gun framer as a possibility.

[Mathdino]

Unbalanced doesn't mean unsolvable

[Mathdino]

I think with a healthy dose of self questioning, scumhunting, and lynching, setup spec should

enhance

our play. Note that I'm not asking Fenix to fullclaim if it's not useful. Useful things so far are (let's make exhaustive list):
1. I have a guilty on Nazarene, who doesn't have a role with a gun
2. Naz has a 'guilty' on ProHawk, whose claim doesn't mesh with the result
3. guille roleblocked Fenix
4. Fenix did something while roleblocked
5. Everyone except guille has claimed a role investigative
If you think my results are screwed up, then wouldn't the correct thing to do be to wait and see what info we can get out of today?

[Mathdino]

You are just trying to piece together the information you DON'T have, so that you can make the best use of your role

s

.

This is true, just without the 's'.

[Mathdino]

VOTE: Nazarene

[Mathdino]

Just going by the way you've been approaching the game and setup spec. ika is someone I recall having a certain penchant for setup spec and gamebreaking.

that hasn't been my experience with ika at all. do you have a link to a game where he did this? he says he can but I have yet to see it. this isn't negging on ika it is just i am trying to figure out why you think this.

thesp's game. He didn't actually break the setup there because the twist was just that it was methodical mafia but he talked for a loooong period of time about trying to and I filed him away as someone who's obsessed with setup spec. Check our ISO's if you feel like.

[Mathdino]

Spoiler: Yes, like all of these posts

Wait guys, what if there's no scum? That would definitely be unbalanced.
Seriously.

mastin: is there definitely a scum team? If there wasn't, would you lie about it in your answer?

<<< I would be the first to admit the idea of a no-scum game has run through my mind.
This is not this kind of game. I guarantee you there are scum in the game. >>>

I just had an epiphany. Why the hell would mastin put a completely normal cop in this game?
She wouldn't.

I may be wrong, but by looking at my role, I have the feeling that a lot of the roles in this game are non-normal, or bastard. My claim of one shot miller actually fits in more thematically than sonic's claim.

This game screams multiple cops

Hey everyone. I think it's entirely possible that this is a purely investigation based game.

@everyone: is your role investigation related? Please answer with a plain "yes" or "no". I'm counting plain VTs in people that would say yes, too.

This would include:
Cops
Rolecops
Gunsmiths
Millers
Death millers
Trackers
Watchers
Voyeurs
Followers
Oracles
Pretty much anything else that affects or enacts investigations.

1. shos - confirmed Doctor.
2. Nazarene (TierShift+Aegor) - Claimed possibly insane tracker. N1 found bulba targeting shos. N2 tracked Prohawk to no one.
3. Voidedmafia - Confirmed Sane Cop.
4. Sonic Boom (Metal Sonic+Titus) - Confirmed Mafia Lawyer.
5. Bulbazak - Confirmed Town Miller
6. EddieFenix - Useful result N1 on Sonic
7. ProHawk - Claimed Ultimate Cop, innocent on Bulba on N1, no action N2
6. ika - Claimed Something that interferes with investigations.
9. Mathdino - Claimed Gunsmith, bulbazak has no gun, Nazarene does.
10. guille2015 - Claimed JK
11. pirate mollie - ?
12. eyestott - Claimed One-Shot Miller
13. DrippingGoofball - ?

Nazarene: out of all of the claims, I'd probably be the least inclined to believe him. If a watcher came forward, maybe. But think of this: we haven't really had much in the way of common investigatives. We have a claimed ultimate cop, we have a gunsmith, a sane cop (confirmed sane, unlike other investigatives), but trackers are common, and insane trackers are very easy to fake. From what I understand, the only info naz gets is whether his target targeted someone, by reversing it. Not only that, but Prohawk has disputed his N2 result. Finally, out of all of the claimed investigatives, Naz' is the least useful, IMO. Mislynching Prohawk and killing ultimate cop would be much worse than mislynching an insane tracker.


Guille: The only thing that makes me think he might possibly be telling the truth about his claim is that shos flipped as a doctor. Unless something blocked guille or unblocked Eddie, one of them must be lying.
1: guille is blocked. This would mean that there is another blocker, obviously.
2: Eddie is either ascetic, or strong willed, or something else.
3: Eddie was deblocked by someone.
4: guille is lying about JKing Eddie.
5: Eddie is lying about being RBed.
I doubt that a deblocker exists. Eddie, is there anything to suggest that you are strong willed? 4 and 5 can only be ruled out by lynching one of them. We can find out if 1 is true by finding another roleblocker, or if two people are RBed during the night.
Risk assessment wise, if one of them is scum, it would be better to lynch guille first. Eddie says he has an investigative power, and JK messes up with investigations too much. Either way,
Eddie: why aren't you claiming? Is it for the same reason Prohawk was hesitant to claim?
There still a week left in this day, but there's 12 hours left in another of my games, so urgency calls.

[Mathdino]

(As always, if I get enough people requesting his full role PM, I will post it, even though it is fairly self-explanatory.)

Mod I would like his full role PM

.

I can't believe I didn't think of this. Need to see if he's a miller to both cops and their variants. If he is, then I'm insane and Naz is town.

[Mathdino]

None of us are cops so I don't think it's too useful to look at Voided's.

[Mathdino]

^That was the hammer for Bulba

This is the hammer for Voided:

Vote: Voided

[Mathdino]

I think in absence of Fenix fullclaiming, which isn't really necessary since he's an investigative and we can just tell him who to look at, it's ika's and mollie's turn to claim to the extent they desire.

Your turn, ika.

[Mathdino]

Sonic, in your role PM, what does it say exactly as far as your cop ability goes?

This is a bad question, and I don't see how Sonic could answer without breaking the rules. You should ask him to paraphrase.

Bulba, I'm assuming that Sonic is smart enough to phrase their response and not break the rules/quote their role pm. Just get as detailed as possible

Umm it's the standard(?) cop role pm lol with a bit of mastin flavor

I am going to try


Every night, I can target a player and learn their alignment. Then

Blablabla instinct and intuition and your weapon is your vote and Win when all scum are dead

Stuff we already know

Unvote

I've got my eye on you, Sonic. Don't think I won't investigate further down the line if you start to smell fishy to me.

wow just noticed this
claim checks out so much
guille is prob scum or fenix is really good at planning things out

[Mathdino]

Unvote

I've got my eye on you, Sonic. Don't think I won't investigate further down the line if you start to smell fishy to me.

Vote Sonic Boom

Scum.

@Bulba, need that wagon on Sonic Boom rolling up. Scum don't need logic to keep themselves out of the fire. They just need a plea of sorts. I'll work with Guille. But, Sonic Booms gotta go.

THERE'S the town Bulba I know. Had me worried. Also, why is Sonic NOT dead yet? They're scum. Lynch it up, peeps.

Town

Bulba
Me
Our Jailkeeper (name escapes me right now)

Null
ika
DGB

Scum
Sonic

Working on my project for college. Gonna dive back into that cause I've been at it for about 8+ hours now and I need to go back because I keep getting ideas and remembering things. You give me colors my good man XD

@Naz-Tier head, Sonic's claim of cop is probably half right. I'm willing to peg him down as a mafia role cop to give his "cop" claim some minor justification because I don't see 3 cops running around in the town. I'm going to CONTINUE to tunnel Sonic til it's lynched because I smell blood and I'm a dog with a bone when push comes to shove.

I'm surprised I didn't look for this before. This looks pretty damn genuine.

[Mathdino]

Because I have a guilty on them and I don't believe their tracker claim?

I'd gladly switch to guille, honestly, if only to see what happens tonight. But top suspect is Nazarene for obvious reasons.

You understand of course that if we bag scum today then guille, if town, essentially functions as an ultimate cop in that unless scum has an ascetic/strongman, his target is scum if no kill happens.

[Mathdino]

Then we agree to switch to each other's wagons if necessary and carry along our merry way, letting the others decide which to go for. I'm fairly certain scum is {Nazarene, guille}. If not them, probably ika.

[Mathdino]

Kinda bewildered at ProHawk voting the guy with a guilty on the guy with a guilty on him.

A lot of this depends on Bulbas role PM. If the miller works on cop variants, Im insane and Naz is sane. Otherwise, vice cersa. My result tonight should definitely help.

Also I would not be surprised if scum have a godfather tbh. Gunsmiths dont usually get inno on them but mastin says I do. Would work nice with all the millers.

[Mathdino]

I am sane. Nazarene, if town, is insane. Confirmed.

ProHawk, millers don't work on trackers, read the stuff about cops and cop variants. Bulba's miller only works on cops, but not gunsmiths/trackers. That means that tracking Bulbazak to the kill was an insane result.

Which means the idea that you targeted no one was also an insane one.

[Mathdino]

Heres a role for you Dino:

Make target players results tonight insane. He can be one-shot, two-shot, or infinite.

YOU KNOW WHAT THE ROLES ARE THATS WHY YOU ARE PUSHING LYNCHES BASED ON RESULTS BECAUSE YOU KNOW HE WILL FLIP TOWN, YOU KNOW IT WILL IMPLICATE ME. YOU KNOW YOU CAN MISLYNCH THE WHOLE WORLD AND WIN.

You seem so sure he'll flip town.

[Mathdino]

Right, because if its me its between guille and Fenix.

~logic~

[Mathdino]

No matter which of us is remaining scum, last is betweem g and F.

[Mathdino]

Heres a role for you Dino:

Make target players results tonight insane. He can be one-shot, two-shot, or infinite.

YOU KNOW WHAT THE ROLES ARE THATS WHY YOU ARE PUSHING LYNCHES BASED ON RESULTS BECAUSE YOU KNOW HE WILL FLIP TOWN, YOU KNOW IT WILL IMPLICATE ME. YOU KNOW YOU CAN MISLYNCH THE WHOLE WORLD AND WIN.

You seem so sure he'll flip town.

So this hypothetical insaneifier, who do you spose they targeted last night?

[Mathdino]

If you think itd counter an insaneifier, we could always all target the same person to definitively check sanities.

[Mathdino]

Including ika in my randomisation of investigate targets. He should really claim before I do so.

[Mathdino]

EBWOP: If Naz flips scum, I'm including ika

[Mathdino]

Kind of the obvious thing to do, so no comment.

[Mathdino]

ika claimed something that messes with investigatives. I want a fullclaim.

[Mathdino]

I don't see how I implied that, I think you're misreading. To clarify: "If Naz flips scum, I'm going to include ika in my randomisation of targets. ika should fullclaim before I possibly investigate him."

[Mathdino]

You know what, ika can fullclaim after tonight. Right now this game is at a total standstill. Looks like the majority of cases to be made have been made.

Someone should hammer, if only to move the game forward.

Cool people should randomise their inv targets like me so there's less interference.

Edit: You hammering will tell.
Your push on mollie still makes 0 sense and you've made no effort to push her or convince anyone that you're right. Wanna actually explain that for once?

[Mathdino]

Why would scum kill you over the 3 investigatives we have? If Naz flips scum, it nearly confirms me as town and scum will take me out. If he flips town, well, I don't actually know. I don't think he'll flip town.

[Mathdino]

Gamebreaking does require PRs, jussayin.

[Mathdino]

kinda wish you did that after nazarene caught up
but whatever

what do you think caused my guilty on nazarene

[Mathdino]

disregarding roles and setup, scum.

but nazarene's push on him sucks.

[Mathdino]

no i mean the fact that nazarene asked for a fullclaim, which was detrimental, rather than a simple question of whether or not he visited someone last night. also the fact that he chose the easiest lynch target to do so, and in particular my top scumread when i'm the one with a guilty on naz.

easy diversion, essentially, and good way for scum to get a PR claim out of naz's lynch.

[Mathdino]

I lied, I'm doing shit today.

I'm starting to get itchy about dino.

Dino, I want to talk with you about your confbiasing. I have provided evidence of that and of fitting evidence to reads below.
Why do you do this?
What is your current read on me based on?
Why do you include ika in your scumreads?
-Tier

The biggest fallacy with this post is my behaviour was clearly dictated by the new evidence I was presented. I found evidence for you being town after you claimed PR, but then after you and ProHawk fullclaimed I looked at evidence that you investigated Bulbazak as you'd claimed, and thus, evidence you're scum.
1. Bad line of questioning, no idea how to answer that.
2. The fact that you weaseled an unnecessary claim out of ProHawk.
3. Because he's not hammering like I'd expect him to. I'm only including him if you flip scum.

[Mathdino]

lol i investigated guille

gj me

[Mathdino]

I think we can agree that Fenix is either ascetic or town.

soooo

VOTE: ika

Fenix, result?

[Mathdino]

Jailkeepers don't have guns, and I'm undeniably sane by now.

If scum have a gun framer they wouldn't have used it on the guy they were gonna kill anyway.

If guille said what he said he was gonna do, Fenix is cleared. Plus, Naz's flip basically confirms that guille was being roleblocked for the first 2 days, which matches up perfectly.

ProHawk is cleared to the extent to which you believe his claim.

I want to hear his case on mollie.

Fenix and I can probably find scum even if we no lynch repeatedly. This game is practically in the bag.

[Mathdino]

Hey, matdino, do you think there could be a death miller or some kind of death reveal framer?

Brother, I had a guilty on Nazarene and Sonic claimed Voided's role.

I think we're good.

@mollie: I think we should run up ika and you can/should claim after him.

Lynchpath to victory:

Lynch in order barring any guilties:

ika
DGB

Probably town but we can go here if we haven't won already:

mollie
ProHawk

If we get here we have a serious problem:

Fenix
eyestott

I'll investigate in the middle-bottom while we lynch the top. Would recommend Fenix and ProHawk (if he can still investigate) do the same. I invite ProHawk in particular to investigate me since apparently nothing can fuck up that investigation.

[Mathdino]

Scum will be forced to kill in {me, Fenix, ProHawk} but that's already almost half the playerlist.

So not only are we set for now
we're set for LyLo

[Mathdino]

dino metal didn't claim voided's role he said he thought he was insane cos he got a guilty on me, remember?

So Sonic could've been unknowably a death miller.

We'll know when we lynch scum. If there're 2 scum, all the more likely we'll hit scum with any given lynch.

eyestott, vote ika. When ika claims, mollie can.

[Mathdino]

dino metal didn't claim voided's role he said he thought he was insane cos he got a guilty on me, remember?

So Sonic could've been unknowably a death miller.

We'll know when we lynch scum. If there're 2 scum, all the more likely we'll hit scum with any given lynch.

eyestott, vote ika. When ika claims, mollie can.

town just seems ovepowered as fuck tho. I guess there cld have been potential wifom in the multiple claims.

prohawk better not have investigated any1 else but me after the way he has been screaming that I am scum since d1 and all that posturing on d2. I still don't understand why he investigated bulba who he was townreading and not me whom he was scumreading.

I investigated Bulba because I wanted to confirm my strongest townread just in case he was being insanely manipulative, and because I wasn't sure how many cops were in the game (and thus how devastating it'd be if I had to claim if I got a guilty).

In general I don't investigate my scumreads if I can push their lynch anyway.

[Mathdino]

No I know, I'm just saying investigating a townread makes sense.

At the same time I agree that he should seriously be investigating you pretty soon with 1 scum left.

[Mathdino]

jesus prohawk

stop purposefully being an ass and just work with us

or work with me if you're gonna keep shitting all over mollie

explain your claim fully

[Mathdino]

prohawk no offence to you
but your reads have been terrible all game
which would be cool if you contributed to discussion
but you decide to explain none of your reads and just sit on them
which would be cool if you just shut up about it
but you instead use your posts to complain about town constantly

if you're gonna keep doing that
legitimately your ONLY use to the town right now is your ability.
YA MIGHT AS WELL HELP US OUT WITH IT.

[Mathdino]

Lynch in order barring any guilties:
ika
DGB

I may be vanilla but I can confirm myself LOL.

wait what

through investigation or otherwise?

[Mathdino]

Hey DGB if you sheep me again we might be able to move past mollie/ProHawks slapfight.

ProHawk why are you not voting?

[Mathdino]

Not sure why she needs my go ahead, but yeah, mollie's claim would be good right about now.

And yeah, I'm useless on determining ika, godfathers don't have guns according to mastin. Meanwhile, ProHawk is not.

N1. Bulbazak has no gun.
N2. Nazarene has a gun.
N3. guille has no gun.
My targets have a pattern of dying within a day of me investigating them.

[Mathdino]

We could always lynch and investigate in order and leave ika to die in LyLo.

[Mathdino]

We could always lynch and investigate in order and leave ika to die in LyLo.

What order?

Depending on what happens, thinking maybe
1. DGB
2. mollie
(after this both me and ProHawk will probably be dead)
and then leave ika to die in LyLo.

Problem is I'm pretty much townreading everyone except ika. Furthermore ika so far is the only investigation immune player.
That said, if he flips and the game isn't over, it's not at all unlikely scum have a godfather that's immune to me and Fenix.

idk. I just need another night to work this out.

[Mathdino]

Actually hang on why hasn't Fenix claimed yet?

It's not like there are that many other investigative roles to go around.

ika[/bi], why no hammer?

[Mathdino]

Ika came back town on Day 2. Dino came back with no result night 3. Now.... There's a lot of questions to be asked here, and I'm not sure where to start....

I didn't read this, whoops.

Yeah okay so guille jailed Fenix.

[Mathdino]

Yo mollie, claim?

[Mathdino]

ika, I want to know the exact title of your role.

I'm gonna ask mastin if I investigate inno or guilty on it.

I think we can come up with a reasonable gamesolving plan moving forward then.

[Mathdino]

ProHawk, consider this:

Revealing your investigation target is only anti-town because mafia can just kill that person and be done with it.

Well now it looks like we have a doc.

If we spread out our targets in a way that both confirms our non PR pile {ika, DGB, eyestott} AND confirms each other {Mathdino, ProHawk, Fenix} while having mollie strategically protect, we might be able to near guarantee that just for tonight all our investigations go through.
If scum is even marginally intelligent, they'll want to kill the doc first, see. If they kill ProHawk, Fenix, me, and a doc is still enough to solve the game.
This is rambly, I don't actually have a plan yet. It mostly relies on who ProHawk is investigating so none of the rest of us target that person. mollie should protect whoever ProHawk's investigating.

[Mathdino]

Because I'm bored:

1. ProHawk investigated ika.
mollie protects ProHawk.
Fenix and I both investigate ProHawk.
Suppose we take a shot in the dark and lynch DGB.

Results:
If scum kill ika, they do our lynch for us. If scum kill either me or Fenix, the other can still confirm ProHawk. If scum kill mollie, we have both ProHawk and ika as conftown.
This covers for instances in which ProHawk, ika, and DGB are scum. Left to confirm are {mollie, Mathdino, Fenix, eyestott}. If mollie dies and flips town we have simply {Mathdino, Fenix, eyestott}, at which point we can no lynch and have both of us check eyestott or each other. Scum would presumably kill ProHawk. From my standpoint, this either confirms eyestott as scum or leaves Fenix as scum, but isn't so great for eyestott and ika. Hmm.

Just rambling, there's probably a better way. Thinking this through.

[Mathdino]

Because I'm bored:

1. ProHawk investigated ika.
mollie protects ProHawk.
Fenix and I both investigate ProHawk.
Suppose we take a shot in the dark and lynch DGB.

Results:
If scum kill ika, they do our lynch for us. If scum kill either me or Fenix, the other can still confirm ProHawk. If scum kill mollie, we have both ProHawk and ika as conftown.
This covers for instances in which ProHawk, ika, and DGB are scum. Left to confirm are {mollie, Mathdino, Fenix, eyestott}. If mollie dies and flips town we have simply {Mathdino, Fenix, eyestott}, at which point we can no lynch and have both of us check eyestott or each other. Scum would presumably kill ProHawk. From my standpoint, this either confirms eyestott as scum or leaves Fenix as scum, but isn't so great for eyestott and ika. Hmm.

Just rambling, there's probably a better way. Thinking this through.

a zero world exists where I am going to protect prohawk.

How bout the one where we can confirm him as town/scum the day after?

[Mathdino]

The key to this is going to be having mollie protect one of our investigation targets.

The problem last night for me is I happened to investigate the guy who died.

[Mathdino]

What if Fenix and I investigate each other, and mollie flips a coin between protecting either of us? Even if scum is between me and Fenix, they'd be forced to off mollie or risk a nokill and then we'd have 2 conftown investigators along with ProHawk's result. ProHawk doesn't need to out anything.

ProHawk, please confirm whether or not you investigated in {me, Fenix}.

[Mathdino]

Why does it matter to you then what order we find out he's scum?

Possible plan then:
Lynch ika today.
You self protect.
Scum will presumably take out ProHawk since his investigation is due.
Fenix and I investigate, say, DGB.
No matter who dies, DGB is confirmed. Then if scum leave ProHawk alive, his investigation target is confirmed as well.

The problem is this gains much less information.

[Mathdino]

Suppose we take a shot in the dark and lynch DGB.

Your calculations are wrong then.

Check your inputs.

Someone is lying.

I'll go full eyestott here:

DGB: VT
ika: Death Miller
eyestott: 1-shot Miller (to cops)
mollie: Doc
Fenix: Cop (?)
Mathdino: Gunsmith
ProHawk: Ultimate Cop

Our job is to come up with something that allows us to confirm everyone's alignment.

[Mathdino]

So who/what do you suggest, DGB?

[Mathdino]

I'm defending him because if we're going to lynch him, I'd prefer it be after he gives a result. I'm willing to compromise on that since

we have 3 lynches left

. 3 lynches and 2 NK flips.

We have time, mollie. We can absolutely confirm his alignment by tomorrow (we can doubly confirm his alignment if he claims a guilty on a townie, we can just lynch between them).

It's not so much defending him as "Leave him the fuck alone for now, if he's scum he'll die soon enough."

[Mathdino]

Meh. If we're gonna lynch it should be in {ika, DGB} IMO. ika as partially policy.

Lynching reduces the number of people we have to confirm. Furthermore there's no negative utility since they don't have abilities.

If it were up to me, lynch ika and have someone check DGB.

[Mathdino]

Meh. If we're gonna lynch it should be in {ika, DGB} IMO. ika as partially policy.

Lynching reduces the number of people we have to confirm. Furthermore there's no negative utility since they don't have abilities.

If it were up to me, lynch ika and have someone check DGB.

I am not lynching dgb cos according to hawk I worship her and I am not 1 for a pl at this stage of the game.

I am going to make REALLY simple:

do you think that prohawk is an ultimate delayed odd night cop

[] yes
[] no

This 'stage' of the game is one where we have 7 players and 1 scum.
We could RANDOM LYNCH and have a 55% chance of winning the game.

Regardless, I don't think he's an odd night cop specifically but I think there's a cooldown mechanic or something if he's town.

mollie it's not like we're going for a perfect win here. Why are you so deadset on lynching ProHawk TODAY, RIGHT NOW (correct me if you're not) when we can instantly confirm him by tomorrow AND get a cop result?

I refuse to lynch a PR when we could still get information out of them.

[Mathdino]

Alright so we have different groups going on here:

mollie-Doc

Almost definitely going to die tonight.

ika, DGB, eyestott - non PRs

ProHawk, Fenix and I can confirm these. Also should be our lynchpool.

ProHawk, Dino, Fenix - investigatives

Gonna have to confirm each other.

So here's a general plan:

1. ProHawk is investigating in {Dino, Fenix}.
If he investigates me, I'll take Fenix and Fenix can take ProHawk. We're all confirmed, mollie's dead, and we just have to lynch in the non PRs to win. If he investigates Fenix, I'll take ProHawk and Fenix takes me. Same story.

2. ProHawk is investigating mollie.
Kinda useless since she'll die anyway. Fenix and I can investigate each other, ProHawk should investigate a non PR. Then Fenix and I are semi confirmed and we can get to working out the rest.

3. ProHawk is investigating in {ika, DGB, eyestott}
Optimal. Fenix and I investigate each other, we lynch in the 2 that ProHawk won't get a result on, mollie protects the one he DOES get a result on, then Fenix and I can check ProHawk and lynch the last unconfirmed person in the pool.

So we've actually got this solved barring the existence of a godfather.

Edit: He never claimed 'odd night' so that's kind of a loaded question. If he's town, I believe he's an ultimate cop that investigates over 2 nights.
See, mollie, you don't understand where I'm coming from here. I don't really care whether I believe it, because we can confirm him no matter what in the next couple of days. I have no need to develop an opinion right now.
The claim itself? Sure I believe it.
Am I scumreading him outside the claim? Sure.
Does any of this matter? Nope.