Mini 436 - Game over - Mafia wins with no casualties!

[ryan]

Paradoxombie: Nothing from you since last Friday, any thoughts on what the replacements have said so far?

Votecount:
DeathSauce 3 (Miztef, Paradoxombie, vollkan)
Miztef 2 (DeathSauce, ryan)
Ryan 1 (VanDamien)

Not voting 3: SweenyTodd, Trustgossip, SirTornado

With 9 alive it takes 5 votes to lynch. At deadline, it's 3 to lynch, or the person with the most votes.

[Paradoxombie]

Well I think everything said is analytically accurate, but it doesn't do much for me. I honestly have been trying to concentrate primarily on the events of day 2. I find day 1 pretty confusing with all the deaths and replacements since. I think I was justified in my actions, but I'm pretty willing to give everyone else the benefit of the doubt because it seems that people got muddled up with ABR's randomness and absurdity. I've only carried over a handful of thoughts from back then, none of them very significant really.

[Miztef]

I feel bad for being the center of attention all the time, cause, honestly, I know my strategies/choices are most likely worse then the average player.

I don't really have a response to the specifics of the evidence (not sure if thats the right term here) presented against me. I forgot half of it and don't know all the details for the other half.

I'll just say this: I am a flexible and adaptive player. I rarely care about what I said 3 posts ago, if my opinion changed (which it very often does) I say so. Anyone who's played in other games with me would know that I am a very radical player and use crazy plans to get reactions. I feel that unpredictability is a key point in winning mafia, because good players know exactly how to react to all the regular stuff. Throw in some curve balls, and everyone's in new territory. That's what ABR tried to do, and unfortunately he went too overboard. However, I think his tactic made for an interesting D1, and, if executed better, could have created a very unsettled scum group.

So, yes, my plans are crazy, and sometimes I don't listen to others opinions on it (that #'s thing confused me though, and we did argue about it I believe). Also, yes, a lot of my actions seem contradictory to my earlier opinions, but that's due to my extra adaptive behavior.

[DeathSauce]

I feel there is a

small

amount of sense to what you are saying , Miz, but in reading the above post, when you state "unpredictability is a key point in winning mafia" , do you mean for scum or town?

A couple more points, not relating to Miztef. In case the deadline comes and I am still leading the voting, I want to get some more information out there from my viewpoint.

I feel pretty good about our two newest players. They are contributing well and both strike me as pro-town. Another point toward that is that I am at L-2, so at least one of them is certainly town, otherwise I would have expected a few posts gradually building suspicion of me and then a relatively fast lynch.

I think there must be 2 scum votes on me, with the third waiting to hammer if they can convince another townie to place the L-1 vote. This contradicts my earlier belief that VD, Miz, and ryan were the scum group. VD's behavior has struck me as pro-town-ish the past 3 pages, but I would like an explanation of the vote on ryan.

I hope to check in at least one more time before the deadline.

[ryan]

VD's behavior has struck me as pro-town-ish the past 3 pages,

but I would like an explanation of the vote on ryan.

I hope to check in at least one more time before the deadline.

I'm interested in the randomness of it without an explanation or content jsut a vote and bail.

[vollkan]

There is another reason why VD should be called to explain his vote:
Before VD voted Ryan (with no justification), Miz and DS were at 3 votes each. I may be wrong here, but wouldn't that result in a No Lynch at deadline? By voting Ryan, VD has effectively caused DS to be the lynchee.

I am confident in my vote, but I can't help but be a little concerned by VD's actions seeing as he made no explanation of his vote. If VD believes Ryan is scum, then isn't it in our best interests in the circumstances of a deadline for him to give us reasons why? Maybe VD has found something that we all missed, but at this rate all he has done is cause DS to be the lynchee.

[VanDamien]

All right, I had intended to do this a day or two ago, but life has gotten in the way. Here it is now, PBPA on ryan in its full glory, which should make it pretty clear why he is scum. Note I intentionally didn't press the case at first for certain reasons.

4:Random vote
13:Random vote question
24:confirms if everyone has voted
26:Questions which point Snichkin is proving, without comment otherwise.
32:Comments on incorect VC
35:Again comment son incorrect VC
38:Asks ABR why he thnks I'm scum. Remeber, we're still in random time here, and I hadn't significantly posted, at all yet.
50:Is one of several who attempt to educate me. A shame sarcasm doesn't translate sso well to the written word or they would have taken it for what it was in those early posts of mine.
53:Promises a reread and content. Of slightly more interest is the short part at the beginning of this post:

A tad suspicious, already? DAMN!

Um, shouldn't everyone be?Well, excpet for you scum who know who is a townie, of course.
55:The promised content, excpet it isn't really. Talks a lot about how everyone needs to post more, and how well maybe he has a few reservations about some people. The interesting part of this post is the analysis of HK:

HurriKaty: Post #4 has me a little interested, especially with the lack of posts. It was posted to random bandwagon to find somebody early in a game, which I don't totally disagree with, I hate the term bandwagoning. Mafia members love to jump on a bandwagon late in the action and take somebody out easily, I don't 100% disagree with this tactic but I'm not all on board. Random bandwagon can be good and bad is what I'm basically saying, I'm just waiting for more posts to see which one she's on. Only two posts so it could have been a pro townie mention OR something to throw off the scent of her tainted tail

So, we're saying that scum like to jump on wagons late, so Katy might possibly be scum in this situation, because post of post #4?!?
57:Doesn't like that he posted a lot of nothing and ABR posted a littel of nothing.
60:Again wants people to post more, asks Miztef for guidance.
76:Asks Snichkin to post.
81: a LOL
86:picture comment on ABR's #85
93:Comment comment on ABR's #85
95:Suggests a posting limitation for Para, which seems extremely odd to suggest such a thing for one person when he's been commenting on everyone's lack of posting.
100:clarifies 95
102:again clarifies 95
106:tries to justify ABR's stupendous scumminess. Perhaps an attempt to be seen as defending someone he knows will turn up pro-town.
108:Fishes for a vote from TopHat
110:references top of page VCs. For the record, I like them too.
112:promises another reread
113: NOW, 113 posts into the game, and what, 100 later, and after commenting on it earlier - decides Snichkins playing to prove a point is reason enough to vote him.
The timing is bothersome. ABR is looking like the lynch of the day, most everyone has stopped pursuing Snichkin at this point, so if there is a scum connection here, it's a safe distancing vote.
119:Isn't a mason. Duh - My comment to the effect was facetious, and directed at ABR.
124:After Tophat comments on, but comes to a slightly different conclusion about ryan's analysis of HK, ryan sweeps it under the rug here.
127:Huh?
130:Asks Miztef for guidance.
135:After commenting on posty #85 twice already, ryan now thinks it could be scummy. Sure.
163:Again asks Miztef for guidance
181:Asks the people not voting to put forth a target. Again, very possibly trying to distance himself from a ABR lynch, since he knows it will turn up town, and looking for a different wagon to jump on.
183: Ok, so in 182 I say

I'll unvote, and wait for the votes to pile on. I am convinced enough to do the hammering on this one.

And somehow out of that, ryan thinks I'm suggesting a no lynch? WTF?
192: Continues to stay away from the topic of the day, anand remain with the much safer (for him) Snichkin.
195:So, he's already decided to saty away from an ABR-wagon. Realizes that I'm most likely telling the truth, and now needs town support before making a move, so he isn't seen as a catalyst in a townie lynch.
198:Some interesting semantic things going on here. ABR calls him out on this, earlier:

I mean if he is town and you are town we would have just lynched TWO of our players.

. Ryan defends in this way:

I don't think I contradicted myself. I simply stated that if we (as a townie) lynch the wrong person than the mafia lynches another, wouldn't that be losing two of our players? I guess I shouldn't have said "we the town lynched" because it would technically be the town lynching one and the mafia lynching the other. I apologize for the confusion, my bad

Now, obviously mafia kills, or nightills, or however else yoou want to say it, they don't lynch - not on their own, not on day one. So when he says "we would have lynched" in the first place, by the way he's using terminology - h could definately have slipped and be referring to a we which includes him in the lynch and the mafia, "lynching" ie lynching and NKing, two town players.
200:Again asks for more posting
217:Still won't express an opinion either way on me or ABR
224:Gets a thought that maybe ABR can be lynched safely now because he wants it, sasks to be sure before voting.
226:Reiterates 224 in different words.
230:vollkan answers that he thinks that ABR wants me to hammer him, and that then ABR, me, and Para will be dead, though neither I or ABR has answered directly yet, so ryan sticks his foot out a little further with a FOS of ABR, waiting for actual confirmation.
240:AGAIN asks Miztef for guidance
244:unvotes
249:Asks DeathSauce his opinion on the situation

All right, that's the first third of the game, more to come.

[Lawrencelot]

Deadline is tomorrow at 1 pm GMT.

[VanDamien]

Continued from last night:

253:useless comment
269:Finally votes! Again supports Miztef's towniness while doing so. Reasoning includes ABR has planned his claim out with the other mafioso.
271:Already back off the vote, saying he's quite willing to not lynch ABR if the town doesn't want it.
273:Somewhat untrue. As has been seen, while ryan hasn't really pushed anyone's wagon - he has sat around and waited for one to develop, very hesistantly. ABR brings up an interesting point in response to this: that ryan encourages others to vote without doing so himself.
275:Very defensive, now that he's in the limelight with ABR.
280:Now regrets his vote on ABR.
283:After DogMom makes a statement about the lynch/kill thing, ryan explains it as "using terms everyone knows". Theis explanation is crap. Anyone who knows enough of the game to understand what a lynch is, should be expected to know what a NK is.
290:Goes after ABR again - after saying that he agrees with the day 2 plan, and most everyone seems to agree, which fits in with wanting to cast suspicion on a townie but not be instrumental in the lynch.
295:

and been at least trying to find scum in this game

This is definately untrue.
297:Comments on ABR trying to drive a ryan-wagon. Which, with ABR's play on day one, is possibly enough to cast serious doubts on a ryan-wagon.
312:Sugeests HK rereads.
321:MIsses SC's point that puhing an ABR lynch isn't scummy - but pushing it without reasoning is.
323:Coninues to miss SC's point.
325:Gets the point, and as per his pattern, asks SC who we should be voting for.
328:Ofhand comment to ABR.
329:More commenting on those not voting.
331:More short commenting to ABR.
333:Asks me who we should be voting, which with all his claimed rereads, you'd think he'd remember that I'm' not voting at that point so that I can hammer ABR.
335:And misses that point when I poin it out.
343:Asks vollkan who we should be lynching.
354:Cop fishes
356:Now is going to keep his finger pointed squarely at ABR.
360:Again wnats to hear from those not voting.
370:Asks HK to vote, ABR to comment on a HK/Para link, and AGAIN asks Miztef for guidance.
387:Wants HK replaced. Follows the pattern of not pushing a lynch that looks apparent - when it's targeting a townie.
391:Continues to defend HK.
393:Continues to defend HK.
395:Defedns HK and Miztef.
396:Wants me and TopHat to post.
398:contentless
403:Agress we've been looking for lurkers instead of scum, when HK's posting patterns look like active lurking at the time, which IS scummy.
405:More asking for others to post.
407:Now thinks HK is scum, which contradicts 403.
408:Asks about the deadline.
412:Wants to know why HK is defensive - still doesn't vote.
414:ABR searches for that vote, still doesn't come.
416:Notes that his and Miztef's votes won't lynch HK.
418:restates 416
420:Wants more people to give their opinion on a HK lynch.
422:Is going to give HK one last chance.
426:Nevermind, let's not give HK that chance - because SC has called ryan on it.
430:No doubt that HK is scum.
431:Claims to not have been called out, even with the reversal of opinion between 422 and 426.
434:Thinks someone should hammer.
436:contentless
438:contentless
452:Thinks ABR was going to protect himself.
471:contentless
480:distances self from a me-wagon
481:wants others to post more
483:Discussion starting vote.
485:contentless
488:wants more posting
490:Misses his vote but mentions mine when discussing what is going on D2. Looks for more posting. Says something controersial may help, but doesn't do it. (That task falls to me)
493:Asks Miztef or SC to post.
497:Out of game question about SC, understandable.
499:Misses Miztef
504:Wants to ignore the count to hunt scum. Continues to not hunt scum. Besides, the count is somewhat important, because several people are being overly hesitant believing we're in LYLO - which we aren't even with a SK. If we mislynch, the SK has to hit town tonight to give the mafia the win.
505:Asks Para which direction we should go.
508:Promises another reread and detail.
510:Goes after DeathSauce for not providing content - which is nicely ironic.
513:More or less the same as 510.
514:LONG POST! My comments about it are in bold:[quote="ryan]Reading the game through again here is some things I picked out. (depending on activity of course)


DeathSauce: Thinks ABR is town (215) Wants to get new players imput to get some fresh perspective. Finds VD made a quick vote on ABR’s death and is suspicious. 502 again seems distracting and not much into finding scum. Basically just about ABR, being gone and doesn’t have anything to say. Also brings up the setup (again) eventually we are going to have to worry more about scum instead of the setup and numbers that are counterproductive and done (IMO) to look active when you really aren’t.

Ryan's current vote, but the only scummy things ryan can find from him are the fact that he's discussed the set-up and is having difficulty sorting through day one. Commenting about looking active without doing any scumhunting is again, ironic.

TopHat goombapatrol054: Being replaced and a good thing because I have NO clue on his role as he hasn’t posted much of anything. Definetly a non contributor

Fair

Miztef: Seems to be pretty pro town as has been somebody who’s brought up discussion and continued discussion. Was one of the first that didn’t like how ABR was seen by the players and had the idea of keeping him around to Day 2 (160) Had suspicion of Para (238) Post 381 was strange as he put HK and Ivy as scummy and than said that HK promising content was more scummy than a lurker. Dropped the hammer on HK and while the hammer can be seen as scummy this time it was the town’s agreement that HK was scum. Thinks Lowell as protown and throws out that VD is suspicious as well. Post 500 was appreciated as Miztef continues to show his towniness (IMO) as he looks at the current active players. Thinks paradox/VanDamien/Truegossip are three to watch out for, doesn’t say what he feels they could be but throws a red flag at them. 509 a pressure vote on para to get posting

Again promotes Miztef as being pro-town. It is fairly obvious at this point that if ryan is scum, so is Miztef. Who is Lowell?

Paradoxombie: Asking about a SK in 482 was interesting as that really hadn’t been brought up until you did. Has posted very little viable content. Seems to be ABR’s #1 target, did ABR see something that we are missing? Did agree to die to prove ABR’s “guilt” but sacrificing townies is not my #1 way to play this game. Returns to post and say that a SK could have taken out ABR but offers little explanation on the SK theory. 501 admits to bandwagoning and is upset that just because it didn’t work out that the town has turned on him. Post 506 is not helpful to the town and not even enough to consider lurking

Obviously with two NKs we either have a SK or a vig, someone commenting on that early day 2 is actually a good thing for day 3 and later if anyone reacts to it.

TrustGossip: Replaced in with a somewhat negative outlook on the game. Not much of a post in 486, says he’s here but that ABR has muddied the waters and isn’t very positive about Day 2. 489 admits to “not contributing” A possible scum lurker who I'll be watching a little closer now

Earlier ryan comments how lurking =/= scum, only presuaded to vote HK because of Katy's posts after she is attacked for lurking, but now Trust is a scum lurker?

StallingChamp: Ever since his “girlfriend problem” hasn’t posted a whole heck of a lot to give me a good read. Post 318 about “forgetting the game” was a little weird. How do you forget you signed up for a game? Possible lurking. Did bring up the “jester role” in post 442 which was odd. 359 post was interesting as he’s calling out lurkers BUT had lurked quite a bit to that point. 373 is a defensive vote and an odd one. (425) FoS’s me for asking that HK be given a chance to clarify her stance in the game and says I let a lurker go by, well what have you been doing?

Misses that SC has been banned from the site by this point

VanDamien: Started out actively looking for scum in the first few pages, than kind of dropped off. Still wondering if he did this to give the impression he was active and is now lurking. Seemed to be the leader in the “lynch ABR” discussion. Will drop the hammer on ABR if he gets to -1 (which he did) Claimed vanilla in 193. Offered to die to help the town (204) Tries to get the town to take out ABR Day 1 and gives reasons why Day 2 is bad (257) Post 341 talks about lynching mafia three consecutive times BUT we still hadn’t lost any players yet, did he have an idea that his scum buddies were playing the game well enough to take a large lead? Suspects Vollkan could be cooking the numbers to throw off the town. Comes back in 491 with some observations on Trust, Para and Death, tries to stand out and say he doesn’t need people to follow as he’s a leader

Misrepresents 341. It obviously only applied in the event ABR was telling the truth. Begins this paragraph by stating I've dropped off in scumhunting, then closes it by stating how I've provided observations on 4 others.

vollkan: Has kept it pretty vanilla. Not too quick to lynch when Snichken got close to a hammer. Did ask VD and ABR what situation they wanted (208) I would have rather seen him ask the town what situation we were interested in doing. Says that his numbers were a mistake and meant to keep up discussion. 492 comes back and talks about a few of the comments made about him. Has also been big on the "Setup" of the game but still seems to be looking for our scum although having more of a stance on players would be appreciated. Seems to not want to be assertive with votes and opinions, hoping that he takes more of a stand with who he thinks our scum is

More irony here with saying vollkan needs to be more assertive about who he thinks is scum

[/quote]
517:Defends his comments about Trust.
522:wants replacements and posting from Para
529:Wants more from Para
532:Wants more from Para.
534:Wants more from Para
536:Wants more from Trust

Second thirdish done - will finish tonight, although my conclusions should be becoming fairly obvious by now.

[ryan]

VD: If I've been so guilty since Day 1, why have you put two votes on me, one in random stage and one with a deadline looming? Here’s VD’s vote tally

Post 7: Votes Ryan (Random Stage)
Post 65: Unvote Vote: Snichkin
Post 116: Unvote Vote: Albert B. Rampage.
Post 182: Unvote
Post 362 Vote: Hurrikaty
Post 475 Vote Vollkan
Post 520 Unvote
Post 523 vote: Paradoxombie
Post 587 unvote vote: DeathSauce
Post 611 unvote Vote: Miztef
Post 701 Unvote
Post 707 Vote Ryan

Saying that I haven’t been finding scum (which you’ve hinted at in your War and Peace posts you’ve been posting) is really WIFOM. I could easily say that you’ve been lurking through the game with no solid stance on anyone until right before a deadline.

[vollkan]

Saying that I haven’t been finding scum (which you’ve hinted at in your War and Peace posts you’ve been posting) is really WIFOM.

And I could easily say that sounds terribly OMGUS and contrived.

Why is it WIFOM? Usually WIFOM logic is something like: "If I were scum I would have done this but I didn't". If, as you say, VD hinted that you have been prodding people to "hunt scum" whilst not doing anything yourself, there is no WIFOM.

And the second:

I could easily say that you’ve been lurking through the game with no solid stance on anyone until right before a deadline.

This is evasive and an example of the tu quoque fallacy. Since this is one of the less common ones, the gist is:
A criticises B
A is guilty of B
The criticism of B is dismissed.

If VD has accused you of posting nothing substantial, it is no answer for you to swing the criticism back. Yes, VD is somewhat hypocritical here, but his play has effectively been the opposite of yours.
Ryan: Many "prodding" posts without too much input.
VD: Very few posts but usually of a very relevant nature.

Of course, VD's style does tend to produce a low amount of discussion, just because his comments are so sparse.

Regardless, that doesn't really matter since you (Ryan) have still failed to actually address VD's concerns.

Also, VD's quoting of [514] by Ryan drew my attention back to Ryan's comment that my posts have not been assertive about my opinion. My last post before [514] was [507], in which raised some of my own suspicion of VD and Para as well as stating in regards to Ryan:

It seems like you want other people to lead the discussion whilst talking enough so that you don't seem to be lurking. I'd like to see some substance from you rather than these one-liners.

It's rather odd that I give my opinion quite clearly (I admit, I did not say "I think x,y and z are scum", but I don't think that sort of thing is necessary or productive until you have a good reason) as well as noting Ryan's lack of content and then Ryan proceeds to accuse me of not giving opinion and, effectively, lacking content.

I am looking forward to Part 3 of the trilogy.

[Lawrencelot]

Votecount:
DeathSauce 3 (Miztef, Paradoxombie, vollkan)
Miztef 2 (DeathSauce, ryan)
Ryan 1 (VanDamien)

Not voting 3: SweenyTodd, Trustgossip, SirTornado

With 9 alive it takes 5 votes to lynch. At deadline, it's 3 to lynch, or the person with the most votes.

The town has decided to lynch another person. Deathsauce is the one they want to get rid off. "To the gallows!" The town found out that he is on their side, but it was already too late. Deathsauce was

Town

.

DeathSauce, Townie, lynched Day 2.

Send me your night choices.

[Lawrencelot]

The sun rises, and the town has a feeling that there may be deaths again. After a dubblecheck, it appears that one person is missing. That's better than 2 like last night. They find VanDamien's lifeless body on the ground. People mourn, but not everybody... VanDamien was

Town

.

VanDamien, Townie, killed Night 2

It is now Day 3. With 7 alive, it's 4 to lynch.

[DeathSauce]

{ghostly whisper} Gooooo Tooooowwwwwn!{/gw}

[vollkan]

Ouch...

This just gets worse and worse. I'm going to do a bit of a reread to try and get some new information, hopefully.

[Paradoxombie]

I'd like to hear what the three non-voting think of recent events.

[ryan]

I'd like to hear what the three non-voting think of recent events.

LOL, you just stole my question too. We had three not weigh in with a vote before a deadline, I was wondering what they thought as well. Especially TrustGossip, looking back through I'm having a tough time getting a read on you either way as I don't have alot of content from you to go on.

[Miztef]

I'm gonna go right ahead and FoS: ryan.

I was really suspicious of his vote on me, and he's the big lead for me right now. We are in a really desperate situation now though, so I won't vote until nessessary.

[ryan]

I'm gonna go right ahead and FoS: ryan.

I was really suspicious of his vote on me

, and he's the big lead for me right now. We are in a really desperate situation now though, so I won't vote until nessessary.

Care to elaborate?

[Miztef]

sure, I thought wouldn't have enough time, but it turns out I do.

Deathsauce and myself were going at it most of yesterday. Most of the time, you seemed to be on deathsauce's side. Since me and him are both town, either kill was fine for u, just had to pick a side. Your vote just seemed slipped in to me, so if I had died, you wouldn't have as much suspicion as Deathsauce. Vandamien was voting for u when he died, so it's possible you, or your scumbuddies, felt he could convince the town today to lynch you, so you had to be rid of him.

I am also slightly supicious of Vollkan and Paradox for lynching deathsauce. This would of course apply to me as well, but thats fine, its a valid suspicion.

[ryan]

I stated earlier what made me change my mind on you Miztef. I thought for most of the game you were pro town but that stupid plan just seemed anti town and with that said I can't say something is anti town and than not vote for the person who did it can I? DeathSauce coming up town did surprise me and I definetly figured there was a good chance that you two were distancing eachother a little bit with some of the back and forth that was going on. Today to be honest I'm really interested in the three who didn't vote before the deadline and why they chose to keep their opinions silent. I do understand that Sweeny and Tornado had alot to re-read but they also had some pretty good posts about the game and than didn't vote. TrustGossip also interests me as he's been pretty quiet and almost playing too safe for awhile now.

[Sir Tornado]

Vandamien was voting for u when he died, so it's possible you, or your scumbuddies, felt he could convince the town today to lynch you, so you had to be rid of him.

WIFOM

[Miztef]

Sir torando, its a valid point. It's an advantage to the scum to be rid of someone who is helping the town. Vandamien, from my perspective, is the only person who could have possibly been voting for scum, and the scum killed him. Therefore, scum would be getting an advantage by killing him over other players.

To my knowledge, no pro-town power roles were remotely close to being found, so that seems like the best course of action for the scum.

Also, that is only a small reason why I am FoSing ryan, earlier action in the game has kept me suspicious of him, and voting me just for that plan seems ridiculously scummy. At least deathsauce accused me due to my explaination of the trap/plan not the plan itself.

[Sir Tornado]

Sir torando, its a valid point. It's an advantage to the scum to be rid of someone who is helping the town. Vandamien, from my perspective, is the only person who could have possibly been voting for scum, and the scum killed him. Therefore, scum would be getting an advantage by killing him over other players.

That is again highly WIFOM. I usually find that many of the discussions associated with trying to accuse someone of being the scum are WIFOMic when someone is so overtly against someone. It is easy for the real Mafia to kill someone like that and use it to get a mislynch the next day.

I am not saying that Ryan cannot be scum. What I am saying is, that we can't consider the Night Kill as the evidence to find scum, especially when the NKee was so antagonistic towards the person you are accusing of being the scum. It can easily be a set up, a way to make that person look even more scummier. Still, I'll have my eye on both you as well as Ryan. One of you is, most probably a scum.

[vollkan]

I can see Miz's logic, but it still relies on a WIFOM which we can't accept at this stage of the game.

I have found something else about Ryan I would like discussed:
Ryan's voting post #642 for Miz was:

I'm not sure how I could be so wrong, and

although you could still be scum Deathsauce I'm starting to agree with you about Miztef pulling an anti town move.

I've read and re-read and read some more and I still find it to be scummy BUT I'm not sure why he'd admit to his plan unless he thought he was going to be found out and figured he'd try and come clean to look more townie. *shaking my head* If you aren't pro town, you are anti town and I am NOT a fan of anti town players so........
Vote Miztef

Now, just prior to that in #640

In light of re-reading the posts I missed while on vacation I am going to

unvote

I just am not a fan of setting traps that potential townies could find themself in AND than having an out if a townie is lynched.

I still feel DeathSauce could be our mafia but Miztef is just not sitting right with me right now.

I'm looking back through posts to see what I could have missed about Miztef as I was pretty sure he was pro town. I'm not above admitting mistakes and DeathSauce might have been right about Miztef being mafia but if that's true than my case on DeathSauce might be wrong as well. I'll post something after I get a few things re-read (and done at work) What a tangled web we weeve

I don't like the ease with which Ryan reversed his stance entirely, despite admitting that he was suspicious of the very person who he was agreeing with. This much would fit with Miz's statement:

Most of the time, you seemed to be on deathsauce's side. Since me and him are both town, either kill was fine for u, just had to pick a side

Also, we have Ryan's rather blunt "If you are not pro-town you are anti town..." A pro-town player can make a mistake (as I suspect Miz has) and not be anti-town. There is false logic to this, but I don't think it is as important as the stuff regarding Ryan's reversal.