Policy Discussion: Newbie Games

[somestrangeflea]

I also agree with this rule. I've never played in a Newbie game from the start, because any time I join the queue, I get hijacked by mods looking for replacements!

[mith]

I'm fine with it, at least as a see-how-it-goes thing. I haven't been paying enough attention the past month to have any idea how much it would help; if you think it's worth trying that's good enough for me.

[Sir Tornado]

Hmm... I thought there was an actual crunch on ICs.

I would think that most ICs would not be replaced in their games, so eventually, it would be the Newbies who would need to be replaced.

What this rule would do is increase the Non IC players to IC players ratio in the newbie games.

Well, of course, I would love to replace in any newbie game, but wouldn't this actually increase the need for IC players? Because the total newbies, who would have replaced into some game would now have to have a separate game for them... so, if for example, you need 5 replacements (if say 5 different games), if you replace them with 5 total new players, you don't need any more ICs. But, if you fill up those replacements with semi experienced players, you need 2 more ICs to fill in the game with the five newbies (who might have replaced into those games otherwise) to keep the 5-2 ratio there.

Right?

[jeep]

It might be possible to modify the 'Title' code to display based on (List?) Moderator promotion, rather than the strict post count it does now (up to 101 posts/Title Fairy intervention,

I'm trying to read this on my phone and it's not quite clicking. Someone ping me about this on Tuesday.

-JEEP

[Mr. Flay]

Hmm... I thought there was an actual crunch on ICs.

I would think that most ICs would not be replaced in their games, so eventually, it would be the Newbies who would need to be replaced.

What this rule would do is increase the Non IC players to IC players ratio in the newbie games.

(snip)

Right?

Not exactly. When a Moderator for a Newbie Game asks for a replacement, they generally specify if they are replacing an IC or a newbie. If it's an IC, only an IC (or at worst, someone who is almost an IC) generally takes the spot. If it's a newbie that needs replacing, anyone can take the spot, but 9 times out of 10, it's another newbie/non-IC that takes it.

It's a little like the two queues for ICs and newbies, if that helps it make more sense.

[Mr. Flay]

It might be possible to modify the 'Title' code to display based on (List?) Moderator promotion, rather than the strict post count it does now (up to 101 posts/Title Fairy intervention,

I'm trying to read this on my phone and it's not quite clicking. Someone ping me about this on Tuesday.

-JEEP

For clarity, I'll rephrase what I'm asking:

Right now, someone starts off on the site with "Townsperson" as their title until some number (20? 42?) of in-game posts, at which point the software automatically promotes them to "Goon". After 100 posts, they get promoted to "Mafia Scum".

I'm asking if it would make sense for the initial title (whatever it is, Townsperson or New Citizen or whatever) to stay put until someone with Moderator/List Moderator powers 'promotes' them. Post counts become irrelevant; it would require making a new interface somewhere where you can grant them the new title, after some successful number of games completed (for example). Downgrading someone would not be allowed, except by Site Mods or maybe List Mods, when someone becomes a total and utter flake.

Then, after five completed games (or whatever our new criteria for IC is), a List Mod can promote them to Mafia Scum (or whatever we decide the "standard, full Scummer" title is). From that point on, they probably only gain new/custom titles the way we do now, through the Title Fairy. Again, no downgrading except in extreme circumstances.

Make more sense now? It would mesh neatly with a decentralized way of deciding who is an IC, and make it much easier for me to see what classification someone falls under. And if other mods want to apply a "no New Citizen" standard to a Theme Game or something, it makes their life easier, too.

mith:

Thanks, I'll probably figure out how to write this up later this evening. I think it'll alleviate some of the current bottleneck of replacing missing newbies.

[Mr. Flay]

*bump* Also, adding another data point:

With the long list of Newbies waiting for enough ICs to fill their games, there's been quite a bit of confusion on why people are being "missed" when people who sign up after them get into games (these are the needed ICs). Might be better if there was just one list for that reason, too...

I get the impression that virtually no level of incentive would be sufficient to secure THAT many additional IC players in Newbie Games, based on the general lack of comment here. Either people are already playing Newbies because they feel like it/love them, or they don't play and nothing seems inclined to change that. We've been sitting at about 4-5 games waiting for several weeks, and that's before the fall semester starts back up at school. So maybe it's time to try one of mith's 7-newbies games, or something with a mix of raw newbies and the new "semi-experienced" classification. Right now, SE players are at about 6 of 22 folks in the Queue...

[Zindaras]

I think a solution would be to up the amount of players to 9 (by simply adding two townies). It solves part of the balance issues with the current C9 setup (the town is only given one mislynch, as opposed to having to lynch correctly twice. That's a horrible ratio), it makes the games last longer, and it helps solving the glut.

[Mr. Flay]

(20 points)

How does it solve the glut?

Show your work.

Also, C9s have a certain symmetry, in that the town can win by lynching right twice, or lose by lynching wrong twice. I think that makes them valuable as teaching tools.

[Zindaras]

(20 points)

How does it solve the glut?

Show your work.

We currently have 17 newbies who signed up. In 7-player games, it'd take us 4 games to distribute those newbies. In 9-player games, it would only take us 3.

The advantage rises significantly if you take it over a longer time (which we do).

Also, C9s have a certain symmetry, in that the town can win by lynching right twice, or lose by lynching wrong twice. I think that makes them valuable as teaching tools.

You value symmetry over balance? Town have to have at least a 67% success rate in lynching. That's simply too high. We had a thread a while ago about the statistics involving Newbies. If my memory serves me well, the distribution was about 65-35. Real symmetry would be if the distribution were 50-50. That's symmetrical. What we have now is lopsided against the town.

Also, as far as teaching tools go, I think the main thing Newbies teach are how to handle LyLo, because I think pretty much every Newbie who's played in two or three games has experienced LyLo. And, to be honest, LyLo makes up a minor amount of lynches in normal Mafia.

[SPAG]

in my honest opinion i don't think it is necessary for IC's to play.

However i could like to propose that it should be co-modded, one main mod and a 2nd mod to help out when the main mod isn't around. Therefore being able to answer any questions.

[Eyceking]

Good luck turning newbie games into a co-mod format.

Really.

[Mr. Flay]

Yeah, Mods is the other thing we have a broad shortage of, but it's not so importance since (like Open Games) any other Mod can pick up a dropped game by having the players send their roles in.

Zindy: I value symmetry and speed over balance in

teaching

games, yes. You're correct that Newbie games have a very low win percentage (for town), but a LOT of that has to do with people not knowing how to correctly handle lynch-or-lose. They vote too fast, get riled up, or flip out, and *boom* town loses. I think it's valuable to learn that lesson before you get to the endgame of

Super Complicated Theme Mafia with a Twist

after nine months.

You're right that we'd utilize 40% more newbies per game with nine players, but enlarging the # of players means on average another Day in length, too, which translates to another month playing that first game, at times. Seven discrete pieces of information is about as many as most people can handle easily, which appeals to me.

I probably won't be making any decisions on this until next week at the earliest (when I can do some number crunching during my time off), but I'm leaning towards SPAG/mith's idea of trying an IC-less game as an experiment.

[somestrangeflea]

I honestly only think that

one

IC is necessary, although I'm not sure why...

[Zindaras]

Zindy: I value symmetry and speed over balance in

teaching

games, yes. You're correct that Newbie games have a very low win percentage (for town), but a LOT of that has to do with people not knowing how to correctly handle lynch-or-lose. They vote too fast, get riled up, or flip out, and *boom* town loses. I think it's valuable to learn that lesson before you get to the endgame of

Super Complicated Theme Mafia with a Twist

after nine months.

If my memory serves me well, we've already had 3-page and 4-page newbies. Do you really think newbies of that size (and <10-page newbies are getting more and more prolific) are a good teaching experience?

You're right that we'd utilize 40% more newbies per game with nine players, but enlarging the # of players means on average another Day in length, too, which translates to another month playing that first game, at times.

And we must value speed above all? If we value speed so much, why not install strict 1- or 2-week deadlines? It works pretty well to get the speed up, you know.

If we put speed above all, we are misleading newbies. Newbies who expect the rest of the site to play out the way the newbies do (and I have seen that) and are disappointed when the games on the rest of the site turn out to be a lot slower. If we make the newbies believe the rest of the site is as fast, then those who prefer a fast game will be disappointed and leave if it turns out the rest of the site is slow, and those who prefer a slow game will be disappointed by the speed of the newbie games and leave before even trying other games.

You do not teach someone how to shoot with a sniper rifle by giving them a machine gun. A 9-player setup is simply much closer to the way we actually play Mafia here. We should strive for realism.

[Mr. Flay]

I'm not talking about Speed Mafia, and you're misreading me to say otherwise. I'm talking about games in which a Day lasts 3-4 weeks, on average. With two-three Days max, that means a two-three month commitment, most of the time. Those 3-4 page screw-ups are still the exception, not the rule, but they do teach something.

[Adel]

Is there a reason why Deathy isn't used for newbie games?
Also, I think that Newbie Day 1's would be less painful if games started with a Night start. Newbie players killed during the N1 could just be cycled back to the head of the line.

This is an example of the kind of set-up that would probably have a quicker, or at least less painful D1 for Newbie filled games:

IC-Free Newbie

2 Mafia Goons
1 Cop
1 Random Role (25% Doc, 25% Cop, 25% Vig, 25% SK)
3 Townies

Night Start

[Thok]

Is there a reason why Deathy isn't used for newbie games?

Dethy is less about looking for tells, and more about analyzing cop investigations. It's also fairly hard for scum to win and has a lot more incentive for no lynch. C9 is much closer to standard mafia then Dethy.

[SPAG]

Thinking about it, all you need is an active mod really, one who will be able to reply to players questions quickly.

If there is a shortage of mods i will be more than happy to moderate a newbie game. I am currently modding my 4th game on the PFF private forum, and i've always had positive views. I have a fair knowledge of the game and i will certainly be an active mod.

[NabakovNabakov]

I'm not sure if a Mod can really take the place of an IC. Firstly, it sets a precedent of Mod involvement that the rest of the site doesn't live up to. Secondly, the person who is answering the questions will always know every role in the game, so their responses either have to be painfully objective or may be biased and drop clues.

As messed up as the newbie game system is, I'm not sure how much we should allow it to stray from the traditional Mafia formula in the interests of speeding up the queue.

[SPAG]

I'm not sure if a Mod can really take the place of an IC. Firstly, it sets a precedent of Mod involvement that the rest of the site doesn't live up to. Secondly, the person who is answering the questions will always know every role in the game, so their responses either have to be painfully objective or may be biased and drop clues.

As messed up as the newbie game system is, I'm not sure how much we should allow it to stray from the traditional Mafia formula in the interests of speeding up the queue.

I see where you are coming from, but there are tons of newbies waiting to get into a game. I would like to propose that we do a few 7 newbie games with an active mod until the list settles down.

[xyzzy]

Just lower the requirement to IC.

I've been stuck at 4 games for weeks; I'd jump right in if there wasn't the 5 game requirement. After 1 newbie and 1 other game, anyone is prepared, since they've seen more.

[Oman]

I agree with Xyzzy, lower the IC requirement. How far is not my call, but I think this would help a lot.

I also agree that 9 players would be better then 7 (with two ICs). There's nothing wrong with an extra day, as that day will be added to the end and be shorter in length. (I.e. D1 remains the same; D2 will be longer then D2 is now; D3 will be just a short as D2 is...maybe less so).

Also gives Newbies the oppertunity to play with more diverse roles (masons, SKs, vigs etc.) If you want to bring those in without upsetting balance.

[spectrumvoid]

I honestly only think that

one

IC is necessary, although I'm not sure why...

Say I'm the sole ic. I'm scum. Guess what happens.

(Of course, I've modded games with both ic scum, and unless the remainder are not complete newbies, the game tends to be completely one-sided.)

[Oman]

The idea of an IC being on one side or another conflicting with IC Intergrety is strange to me.