Policy Discussion: Newbie Games

[The Fonz]

The idea of an IC being on one side or another conflicting with IC Intergrety is strange to me.

Why? ICs, certainly, should not give out-and-out bad advice to newbies, even if they're scum. But i think there are degrees of good advice. No-one is going to tell a newbie that the thing they just did themselves is a massive scumtell. The other IC, if on the opposite side, might point it out, but then, who to believe?

Often, I think you learn more from how the ICs play themselves, than from any advice they could give you.

Perhaps we could run one 'all medium-noob game' as a tester? Give it to a known good mod like Flay himself or Stoof, and see how it pans out.

[gorckat]

Was that one of the proposals buried in this thread...5-2 with raw newbs, 7-0 with all 1 or more games completed?

If not, I propose it

[Sir Tornado]

Perhaps we could run one 'all medium-noob game' as a tester? Give it to a known good mod like Flay himself or Stoof, and see how it pans out.

QFT

and

Just lower the requirement to IC.

I've been stuck at 4 games for weeks; I'd jump right in if there wasn't the 5 game requirement. After 1 newbie and 1 other game, anyone is prepared, since they've seen more.

QFT.

Xyzzy, if you are stuck with 4 games for weeks, then just replace into a game which is nearing it's end...

[YYCguy]

I think for

raw

newbies, playing in a game with ICs is good. It's hard to get the game actually going when noone really has any idea what they're supposed to do. If you do do IC-less newbie games, I'd suggest collecting a few examples of some of the really well played newbie games (only because they're a shorter read ..), and strongly encourage new players to read through a couple before jumping into their first game.

[Sir Tornado]

Well, if you remove ICs from newbie games, then they don't remain "newbie games" do they? They just become C9s... there will be no actual avenue for people who are new to the game to actually ask so and so activity is done.

Also, I think ICs give some sense of stability to the game, because there are instances when total newbies flake out, especially if the activity starts to drop down... ICs contribute a bit to avoid that.

[Mr. Flay]

Yeah, my primary concern with the no-ICs scenario is that I've heard time and time again how people on other sites see their games stall out because no one (raw newbies) knows how to push for a lynch. I'd want at least some SE/one-timers in any game lacking proper ICs, but I suspect the 5-games requirement may be a bit steep for our actual

needs

. I'd rather look at performance, which

is

one of the proposals somewhere buried in this thread... But that's harder.

I honestly only think that one IC is necessary, although I'm not sure why...

Say I'm the sole ic. I'm scum. Guess what happens.

(Of course, I've modded games with both ic scum, and unless the remainder are not complete newbies, the game tends to be completely one-sided.)

Yeah, one of the good things about the old 4-3 split was that you were guaranteed at least

one

pro-town IC, which kept the others on their toes even if they were scum. Even still, it's like a 2% chance of both ICs being scum, so that's a fairly small risk. Having just one IC bumps the chance of them being scum up to 28.5%.

[Erg0]

One thing that is semi-mentioned above is that not all of the newbies signing up for newbie games are complete newbies. I'm still technically a newbie because several of the games that I've died in haven't finished yet. I signed up for my second newbie game a little while ago because I feel like they're a good way to learn, and don't take a huge amount of time to complete. Glancing through the payers that are in newbie games right now, there are quite a few "newbies" that I've seen playing competently in other parts of the site.

I don't think that a game which includes 7 players of my experience level really needs an IC to keep it moving, though I have found that having ICs present helps to accelerate the learning process because it brings the game a little closer to the way that games on the rest of the site are played. It may well be that there's a market for semi-newbie games, for the players who haven't quite made it to IC but want another game in the newbie-ish environment. Suck it and see, I suppose.

[Oman]

If you've died in them they count as completed games (for you) don't they?

I think 1-timers are fine. The biggest problem is that A) No-one random votes and B) no-one hammers cause "It looks scummy".

The only reason I play newbie games really is the small size and the unpredicability of a C9. I play them for the learning environment in a small size, not because of ICs.

[Erg0]

Last time I saw someone ask that question, the answer was that they don't count til the game finishes - I suppose because you learn much more from the game once you know who had which role.

Likewise, I don't play Newbies because of ICs, but I do find that they improve the learning aspect. If nothing else, I will have some idea of their playstyle when I run into them in another game.

Maybe we should just put "non-newbie vanilla C9 game" into the regular open game rotation? I only suggest the open game queue as a place for these because I think that creating a new queue for these games, or trying to integrate them into the newbie queue, would be something of an overreaction at this stage. As a bonus, it would help people towards modding requirements as well, solving two shortages in one fell swoop!

I amaze myself sometimes...

[Oman]

I recon a new queue would be better.

They aren't open by definition.

[Erg0]

I've seen games in the Open queue with semi-random setups (e.g. 50% chance of doc/cop/whatever). Can't recall whether I've seen games with the exact Newbie C9 setup, but there have been similar games.

Having said that, I'm more thinking about the demand factor - I just don't think there'd be enough people lining up for these games to justify setting up a completely separate queue. I do agree that it would be cleaner to keep them separate, I'm just not sure that it's necessary. Of course, I am not the arbiter of what does and doesn't fit with site policy (yet).

[Thok]

I've seen games in the Open queue with semi-random setups (e.g. 50% chance of doc/cop/whatever). Can't recall whether I've seen games with the exact Newbie C9 setup, but there have been similar games.

Several C9+2 games (C9+2 townies) have been run in Open Games.

[Guardian]

I've seen games in the Open queue with semi-random setups (e.g. 50% chance of doc/cop/whatever). Can't recall whether I've seen games with the exact Newbie C9 setup, but there have been similar games.

Several C9+2 games (C9+2 townies) have been run in Open Games.

I prefer that setup to c9, actually. gives the town a better chance, which is especially nice if newbies are playing..

[Oman]

]I prefer that setup to c9, actually. gives the town a better chance, which is especially nice if newbies are playing..

Would C9+2 townies +1 scum hurt either side too much?

If you did that thats 12 (a mini) and would move the newbie queue a lot faster.

[Erg0]

I like 7 player games, myself - besides anything else, it reduces the commitment required from ICs. I don't know that I'd volunteer to be in a 12 player game with 9 or 10 newbies (I get enough of those in the Mini Queues - zing!).

Flay more or less covered his view on this on the previous page, so I'll just say that I basically agree with him.

[Streeflo]

I would play as an IC in multiple newbie games to help out, but I'm not sure if I qualify yet.

[Crub]

]I prefer that setup to c9, actually. gives the town a better chance, which is especially nice if newbies are playing..

Would C9+2 townies +1 scum hurt either side too much?

If you did that thats 12 (a mini) and would move the newbie queue a lot faster.

C9 is a 7 player game so C9+2+1 is actually 10 players
Like C9 Town only get 1 mislynch before lylo, but there are 3 scum to catch so I think this is over-balanced towards scum.
C9+2 is actually a pretty good setup but it would slow down the games a bit.

I think newbie games with 5 raw/2 ic or 7 with 1 or 2 completed games could work Because of C9's faster pace this would help increase the number of people eligible to be IC's, and might help alleviate some of the IC shortage problems.

[Oman]

Sorry, I'm an idiot. I counted C9 as 9 players /duh!

If its true that games don't count until they're over, regardless of whether you were a N1 NK or a survivour, I like the idea of C9 or C9+2 being used as regular games.

Because of C9's faster pace this would help increase the number of people eligible to be IC's, and might help alleviate some of the IC shortage problems.

Super QFT

[Erg0]

The essential point that I see here is that we need to either:

a) increase the number of ICs
b) decrease the number of newbies; or
c) all of the above

Point A has been given lots of consideration, point B less so. Perhaps encouraging people to complete only one newbie game and then move into a second, IC-less, tier of C9 games is the way to go. I think that it would address both of these issues.

[Mr. Flay]

They aren't open by definition.

Others have correctly stated that Open Games can include "chance of role" so long as they describe fully what the chance is (0-1, 0 or 2, etc). I know at least one C9 7-player was run in Little Italy as a non-newbie game with pretty good results.

Likewise, it is currently correct that IC requires five completed games that you have been a participant in. One other thing this prevents is someone getting themselves nuked/lynched 5 times in a row and then becoming "technically IC" with practically no experience after twiddling their thumbs for two more months. Another reason I'd like to get away from the strict criteria we currently have... But my vacation for August has been pushed back/compressed, so it'll be a while before I can really make any sweeping changes.

Erg0, I agree that there's a layer of experience between "newbie" and "IC" that many people miss at first. No to mention those who come here with experience from another site, or face-to-face games... that is, if you're talking about "newbies" as players and not as games. trying to add another layer of complexity to the Newbie Game Queue though, seems counterproductive...

[Mr. Flay]

I would play as an IC in multiple newbie games to help out, but I'm not sure if I qualify yet.

As far as I can tell, you've got 4 games completed and another 2-3 in late game right now. As soon as one of those finishes, I'd be happy to take you on as an IC!

[Erg0]

Erg0, I agree that there's a layer of experience between "newbie" and "IC" that many people miss at first. No to mention those who come here with experience from another site, or face-to-face games... that is, if you're talking about "newbies" as players and not as games. trying to add another layer of complexity to the Newbie Game Queue though, seems counterproductive...

I absolutely agree, which is why I suggested the Open Queue for any "semi-IC" games. The fact that people already have trouble with understanding why ICs get into games suggests that adding another category of players that are assigned to games differently would result in mass confusion.

[Oman]

I learned something about Open Games today

Flay, I think you've nailed this (as usual) .

[Streeflo]

I would play as an IC in multiple newbie games to help out, but I'm not sure if I qualify yet.

As far as I can tell, you've got 4 games completed and another 2-3 in late game right now. As soon as one of those finishes, I'd be happy to take you on as an IC!

Hm, alright then. Newbie 369 is in Lynch or Lose, it shouldn't be long now.

[Thok]

So far two C9+2 games have run in open games (Open 18 and Open 29). Both lasted to day 4, and both took about a bit over a month. There was one town win and one scum win. Neither was particularly long pagewise (one was 14 pages, the other was 18 pages).

Obviously, there are sample size issues with this, but this at least suggests that C9+2 isn't such a bad setup timewise.

I also think it has a slight day 1 advantage of allowing for easier bandwagonning (the difference between putting a third vote on somebody day 1 in C9 and in C9+2 is fairly significant).