Policy Discussion: Newbie Games

[Sir Tornado]

You can have a C9 + 2 game, with 3 mafia and the

possibility

of there being a vig (or a roleblocker, or some other preannounced town power role) for town in addition to a cop and doc.

[Mr. Flay]

I'm very unlikely to agree to move Newbie Games into 9-player territory; they don't have to be perfectly balanced to work as instruction.

I'm down with the concept of adding one more potential power role, perhaps, if someone can show how that would help the town's chances sufficiently.

[Zindaras]

I think adding an extra power role only makes the setup more complex.

I think that just adding two townies gives us everything we want: it makes all-scum IC's less likely, it reduces the amount of IC's necessary, it makes the setup resemble normal Mafia better and it balances the setup better (also making it a more enjoyable learning experience, if not just a better one).

But I guess I should shut up now.

[Oman]

I'm very unlikely to agree to move Newbie Games into 9-player territory; they don't have to be perfectly balanced to work as instruction.

They don't have to be tiny two day games to work as instruction either.

I recon you put in 2 more players, maybe 1 more powerrole. I'd say vig before I'd say SK, and RB isn't too bad either)

[EmpTyger]

I would think that slower newbie games (ie the extra day of a larger setup) would decrease their education value.

Specifically, as for adding powerroles: I feel instinctively that including vigilantes in Newbie games is a bad idea.
SK might be the most straightforward, but very tricky to balance.
Protown roleblockers would require mafia nightchoices to have any point.

[Oman]

I recon C9+2 Vanillia townies is fine, the extra day would probably INCREASE the education value.

Think about it, you mislynch once, you lylo at D2 and thats it. You learn what? Not to throw votes around, which is not indicative of larger games.

[Erg0]

I like C9s as a learning tool - they beat rash tendencies out of newbies the hard way. Having said that, there's a C9+2 game in the Open Queue right now that I'm signed up for, so I guess I'll see how the other half lives.

[Mr. Flay]

But I guess I should shut up now.

Please don't. I'm not making a decree from on high, just stating my (strongly held) opinion, in the lack of being convinced otherwise so far.

Another reason I like C9's symmetry, which I may have only implied thus far, is that you learn a lot more from losing than you do from winning. That was one of the things wrong with the old setup; it became reductionist, and people weren't learning anything but Follow-The-Cop. Now, you stand a good chance of seeing Lynch-or-Lose, Speedlynch, Mexican Standoffs, Lurking, False Roleclaims, and Counterclaims, all in two-three game days!

I like that. But I could be biased.

[Raffles]

Reading through, I think Zindy has the most practical suggestion. I highly doubt raising the player numbers by couple has much negative effect on the quality of teaching. If at all, it would probably increase it due to prolonged game length.

Concerning with being taught how to LyLo, there's a nifty chance that would still happen with 9 players, especially with town side not being particularly terrific. Besides, LyLo isn't the most important part of the game. Scumhunting is. If you can scumhunt, I guess LyLo would be naturally easier to manage.

[Sir Tornado]

Another reason I like C9's symmetry, which I may have only implied thus far, is that you learn a lot more from losing than you do from winning. That was one of the things wrong with the old setup; it became reductionist, and people weren't learning anything but Follow-The-Cop. Now, you stand a good chance of seeing Lynch-or-Lose, Speedlynch, Mexican Standoffs, Lurking, False Roleclaims, and Counterclaims, all in two-three game days!

QFT.

I agree with this. I now see the educational value of C9s better after reading that post.

[Erg0]

The other good thing that I see in limiting the number of players is that it ensures that players can't lurk their way through and expect not to be scrutinised. By encouraging each individual to be active, this sets a good example for their forays into the rest of the site.

This would probably still be true in C9+2, but not to the same extent.

[Zindaras]

Please don't. I'm not making a decree from on high, just stating my (strongly held) opinion, in the lack of being convinced otherwise so far.

Another reason I like C9's symmetry, which I may have only implied thus far, is that you learn a lot more from losing than you do from winning. That was one of the things wrong with the old setup; it became reductionist, and people weren't learning anything but Follow-The-Cop. Now, you stand a good chance of seeing Lynch-or-Lose, Speedlynch, Mexican Standoffs, Lurking, False Roleclaims, and Counterclaims, all in two-three game days!

I like that. But I could be biased.

Just a couple of days ago, I lost Wheel of Time Mafia (off-site). The setup was this:

Mafia: 3 Vanilla.
Cult.
Town: Vig, PO, 2 Masons (1 Doc), 3 Vanilla Town, Miller, Bomb, Gambler thing.

I was part of the Mafia. We all had major scum names. We had no fake claims. We had no roles to base fake claims on. The town could confirm half of their members just by flavour. I got lynched due to a flavour counterclaim.

Do you think I learned anything from it?

Some losses don't teach.

I have no idea what the old setup was. But, looking at your examples, I see nothing that can't be done in C9+2 either. Yes, it will be a day extra. But it'll also give newbies better views of Day Two. It'll make it more natural than it is now. It'll teach newbies to play in non-LyLo situations, with no dead scum and with information from earlier lynches.

To kill off the Cop-effect, as you describe it, why not add more to the C9-setup? A godfather, for example?

[Mr. Flay]

Original setting was 2M1C1D3T, every time. It broke because the Cop could come out D1, and then the town played Follow-the-Cop while the Mafia played Hunt-the-Doc. If they didn't counterclaim the Cop (50/50% chance) or find the Doc N1 or N2, they were pretty universally screwed. ICs knew about the strategy for a while without actively advocating it, but eventually it became more common knowledge - around game 70 or so?

Hmmm. A modified C9 might be interesting:

• 1 Cop, 1 Doc, 1 Godfather, 1 Goon, 3 Townies (Cop+Doc is still pretty strongly in town's favor)
  
• 1 Cop, 2 Goons, 4 Townies
  
• 1 Doc, 2 Goons, 4 Townies
  
• 1 SK, 2 Goons, 1 Cop, 1 Doc, 2 Townies (this one may be totally broken??)

But I suspect eliminating the 5 Townie setup, even though it favors the scum heavily, makes the setup more broken for counterclaims. As it stands, there's always a 50%/50% chance that the Cop or Doc exists.

If I get my planned time off next month, I definitely want to finish analyzing win rates in C9.

[Guardian]

Yes -- and C9 + 2

[Zindaras]

I think adding an SK screws way too much with the game. It also makes the game almost impossible to win for the town, having to correctly lynch three times in a row. If they're lucky. Even if they lynch a Mafiate on Day 1, they could easily end up in a Prisoner's Dilemma on Day 2.

Now, if you'd make it C9+2...

[Mr. Flay]

I think adding an SK screws way too much with the game. It also makes the game almost impossible to win for the town, having to correctly lynch three times in a row. If they're lucky. Even if they lynch a Mafiate on Day 1, they could easily end up in a Prisoner's Dilemma on Day 2.

Now, if you'd make it C9+2...

Mmmm, right, I knew there was something screwy about the SK, but I was just throwing that in off the cuff...

And, you can't really just add the Godfather when there's Cop+Doc, or scum know too much about the setup...crap, back to the drawing board.

[Zindaras]

And, you can't really just add the Godfather when there's Cop+Doc, or scum know too much about the setup...crap, back to the drawing board.

Why not? Cop is a major boon for the town. Why not give the Mafia more of an idea what's going on?

Personally, I believe the Godfather teaches newbies one very important thing:

Don't blindly follow the Cop

.

I also think the Godfather would perfectly balance a 9-player setup. Just make it the following:

1) 7 Town, Godfather, Goon.
2) 6 Town, Cop, Godfather, Goon.
3) 6 Town, Doc, Godfather, Goon.
4) 5 Town, Cop, Doc, Godfather, Goon.

I think that's perfect.

[Raffles]

^I think that's worth a test run. But I think definite godfather is bad, because then what happens is cop claims guilty=>lynch=>cop knows now he is uselss. So that should be optional (just like the protown power roles on C9 is).

[Guardian]

And what if optional mafia roleblocker too :O

[Adel]

And, you can't really just add the Godfather when there's Cop+Doc, or scum know too much about the setup...crap, back to the drawing board.

Why not? Cop is a major boon for the town. Why not give the Mafia more of an idea what's going on?

Personally, I believe the Godfather teaches newbies one very important thing:

Don't blindly follow the Cop

.

I also think the Godfather would perfectly balance a 9-player setup. Just make it the following:

1) 7 Town, Godfather, Goon.
2) 6 Town, Cop, Godfather, Goon.
3) 6 Town, Doc, Godfather, Goon.
4) 5 Town, Cop, Doc, Godfather, Goon.

I think that's perfect.

Is there a reason why it is C-9 and not C-8? Lynch or lose on day 2 unless there is a successful doc protect or accurate lynch helps to keep games short, and I think it is a nice balance.

[Zindaras]

^I think that's worth a test run. But I think definite godfather is bad, because then what happens is cop claims guilty=>lynch=>cop knows now he is uselss. So that should be optional (just like the protown power roles on C9 is).

Well, it does give a clear message that Cops aren't completely trustable. But, yes, I can see your point, so I think we could just add another coin flip to the game: one of a godfather.

Is there a reason why it is C-9 and not C-8? Lynch or lose on day 2 unless there is a successful doc protect or accurate lynch helps to keep games short, and I think it is a nice balance.

C9+1 is actually more in favour of the scum than flat-out C9. They'll also likely get a no lynch at some point, and I don't like furthering that too much.

Also, a godfather only makes the Mafia stronger. Therefore, it would be a good idea to make the Town stronger as well, by giving them two more townies.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Adel, C8 would be 11001000, or 25% Cop-Doc, 25% Cop, 50% Neither. The 9 doesn't mean what you think it means.

[Sir Tornado]

If we do have a C9+2 setup, how about giving town a mason pair IF it does not have a single power role?

[Raffles]

We should be careful to sticking to bare bones roles though. I think godfather is as far as I'm willing to put in.

[Oman]

I'd say yes to godfather, no to SK.