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Post Post #525 (ISO) » Sun Sep 20, 2015 10:21 pm

Post by talah »

In post 524, Vedith wrote:Being an SK? I'm not too sure about that, as SK you want to draw little to no attention about yourself.

Well that's true, and at least in theory the advantage you have as SK is that you can genuinely scumhunt because you don't know the scum team.
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Post Post #526 (ISO) » Sun Sep 20, 2015 11:06 pm

Post by talah »

In post 481, TheWorst wrote:
In post 315, talah wrote:
Unless you'd like to elaborate on why you think I'm confused.

You gave the impression of being confused after asking all of those questions, not only to choog. I felt like it didn't lead to anything at first, but Luna remains convinced that you were reading

Is this an unfinished thought?
Can you complete it - and what does Luna being convinced of something have to do with your own assessment?

In post 481, TheWorst wrote:
Zakk
hasn't given much of anything either, but that doesn't mean Veegee is innocent. He's definitely lacking in content though, and according to Vedith he usually posts more.

I feel like someone else has mentioned this - but what's with the false correlary between Zakk and VeeGee?
I get the distinct impression that VeeGee will post more with less votes. What's your vote supposed to achieve?

In post 481, TheWorst wrote:
Performer's
posts are annoying to look at, but from what I've seen he has given bits and pieces of insight. Albeit, in annoying emo and disorganized fashion. Not willing to lynch him quite yet, I want to hear more from him. Pressure is fine on him though.
FA_Q
is still bugging me, especially when he ignored the reasons against him. I'm more willing to vote him if need be.

What do you mean by "bits and pieces of insight" from Performer?
Do you have any questions for FAQ yourself?
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Post Post #527 (ISO) » Sun Sep 20, 2015 11:38 pm

Post by I Am Innocent »

Off to work, catchup tonight after the kids go down.
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Post Post #528 (ISO) » Mon Sep 21, 2015 12:03 am

Post by talah »

Enjoy work!
Also your vote on AJ is currently non-functional.

For my 8 millionth consecutive post (because it's about 8.45pm here in the land of the colonial US state of Australia) (sorry political bullshit is not game related)

AJ is absolutely correct - his play post-rvs is pretty obviously town. Get off him.
@zakk
@IaI

unless you can explain the scumread.

Veegee votes are useless. If we're in the same position a week from now and nothing more happens, we can talk. At the moment your votes are doing nothing
@theworst
@performer


@Kyubey
- voting Banana? I mean I haven't delved but I feel I could. I'd like an explanation otherwise you're kinda sitting on a stale / invalid vote?

@Banana
- I don't want to vote Vedith right now. I want to see what happens. He is not off my radar. I just don't think he's the best lynch right now.

@Vedith
- I'm sure there's a great reason you're voting Zakk which is admissible and trumps any other scumreads you have. I have a couple of outstanding questions to him. But it seems like a wasted vote unless you have questions to him which I don't think you do - I think you're comparing his previous play with current. I've changed my own play so much that I think it's not a line I'd scumhunt in others unless I had a definite scum meta.

I want performer to claim so we can decide what to do with his current softclaim and lack of scumhunting.
And then I think I want to follow on with catboi's assessment of theworst. This along with the questions I have for him.
I like Luna's line on FAQ and think that would be my next option. He's actually so devoid of volunteered content and regularity that there's almost nothing to ask him about except random gamestate questions. Which might not be a bad idea.
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Post Post #529 (ISO) » Mon Sep 21, 2015 12:22 am

Post by Vedith »

In post 528, talah wrote:@Vedith - I'm sure there's a great reason you're voting Zakk which is admissible and trumps any other scumreads you have. I have a couple of outstanding questions to him. But it seems like a wasted vote unless you have questions to him which I don't think you do - I think you're comparing his previous play with current. I've changed my own play so much that I think it's not a line I'd scumhunt in others unless I had a definite scum meta.


I'll be reviewing my vote later when I review a few other things. Once Zakk has caught up I'll have a few questions.
I've got a couple of town reads as well to go through.
I claim scum \o/
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Post Post #530 (ISO) » Mon Sep 21, 2015 12:31 am

Post by talah »

Good-o.

Actually I forgot to mention
@VeeGee
@choof


Vote pl0x.
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Post Post #531 (ISO) » Mon Sep 21, 2015 3:56 am

Post by Aj The Epic »

In post 525, talah wrote:
In post 524, Vedith wrote:Being an SK? I'm not too sure about that, as SK you want to draw little to no attention about yourself.

Well that's true, and at least in theory the advantage you have as SK is that you can genuinely scumhunt because you don't know the scum team.


Depends on what modifiers you have as an SK. I won a game as SK with a 1-shot BP modifier by fake counter-claiming cop against someone I thought was scum, taking the shot, claiming that my cop claim was bullshit and that I was just a BP townie.

Then again, I also didn't make NK's.

SK, vig it doesn't really matter as long as we direct the shots. This is simply because scum will have to take care of them and the SK's only chance to win is to obey town and hope that town backs itself into a situation where they can no longer take out both scum and SK. It's extremely rare but the SK gains nothing by working against the town once exposed.

We need confirmation that performer has a killing role, though.
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Post Post #532 (ISO) » Mon Sep 21, 2015 6:58 am

Post by TheWorst »

In post 481, TheWorst wrote:
AAAAAA I got stuff to do, cutting this post a bit short. well, it's already a wall to catch up/respond with, but whatever.

Just want to note first of all, this is important.
I provided my stances on the "inactive" "low content" players first, since they rarely post in the first place and I felt as though since that's who everyone focuses on, I decided I may as well give my own perspective on them. Still wanted to provoke them to talk. I prefer to question and engage others who actually post because you see, interactions are important D1, but I didn't have enough time to, as shown above.

In post 511, catboi wrote:
The fact is here he's really only hitting low-content players who have been voted or at least fos'd by people in this game. I'm going to go out on a slightly crazy limb here and say I think this is a scumtell, but I don't really know why. I think I've been hit for it before in the past, and people have pointed it out to me. I think, in part, it shows a person isn't legitimately scumhunting and is just following along with the crowd. A town player should be looking at everyone and trying to read them, but for scum it's more convenient to just look at the popular wagons. Again this isn't a great explanation but I'd swear by the fact that someone has told me this, I just don't remember the exact reasoning it's bad.

I'm glad that you're willing to lynch me D1 based on a tell you yourself are not even sure of. I didn't follow the crowd, if I did I wouldn't have kept my vote on Veegee and said Performer is scummy as fuck. My post wasn't even done, but I've said that already. The only actual case I've seen you do is on me (inherently wrong, so no brownie points), maybe AJ that was much lighter though, everyone else has gotten small comments here or there.
Not only that, but then I see you give others the benefit of the doubt, E.G. Zakk who doesn't even try, and Veegee, who posts minimum anything, and that bugs me. Basically, I'd look less scummy to you if I didn't post than actually trying to keep up with the game, trying to engage others, put effort? What sense does that make?

In post 511, catboi wrote:
Added to that, it's really pretty useless commentary! again, voting a lurky player for "pressure" is a meaningless token gesture for scum that is done to attempt to look town while taking on really no risk at all. Also pretty lame to be pressing veegee for content when he's offered up essentially none himself, I think. It's such a weak cop-out for a vote. DOn't see any reasoning behind him asking veegee about faq2 or performer except that they were also getting wagoned. the sentence on zakk is useless! All he says is thathe hasn't posted much! No kidding, anyone could see that from looking at the activity overview! Worst doesn't bother to say whether he finds it suspicious, just essentially goes to restate the obvious. It's non-analysis posing as commentary. The Performer "read" is just, he's annoying but has "bits and pieces of insight" (where? what? who knows) and he's not scummy but you can pressure him and maybe I'll vote him later - it's a total non-stance. Doesn't really manage to say anything about performer at all. Last bit not much better, just saying fa_q2 is bad because he "ignored the reasons against him", whatever that means. It just feels like cheap analysis. COuld I see a town player thinking this? I guess, but the way he expresses it feels off. It's not really new or insightful, just kind of piggybacking on another guy that's been pressured.

It feels like you'e more refusing to
understand
my post rather than analyze it. If you couldn't tell from the post, I basically don't want a lynch now and I'm catching up. I want to talk. Which I've said and done before.
Is that anti-town? Is that scummy? Honestly?
In post 511, catboi wrote:
worst referenced his meta, the only remotely recent meta on him is Mini 1705, and the difference is night and day - there he pretty quickly delves into actual analysis and makes legitimate attempts at scumhunting. in 59 there's a press on something he finds suspicious, then he starts asking questions with a point, drops meta-analysis on a player he doesn't see doing much (bacde) - there's a decent deal of interrogation and accusation going on there. He doesn't give reads for a while but not hard to see honest scumhunting in the questioning, trying to figure out people's reasoning and the like. There's really none of that here and most of what he's said has been constructed seemingly in an effort to avoid riling anyone up. The fact that he didn't bother to look into veegee's meta is also pretty bad, suggests here he's more concerned with simply pushing the easy lynch rather than investigating if he's making a vote based on playstyle.

yeah guess what? If you saw the game, you'd notice it was
much
slower game relatively where I had more time (didn't have school either) to chew and dissect other posts. I posted once a day for the most part besides the first few days, which is the same as now and has been to my detriment so far. I didn't tend to give my reads, as you saw. The thing on Bacde was my frustration since he was posting nonsensically on that game, meanwhile he was posting seriously in other games. And it didn't lead to anything, 'cause he wasn't scum. Ask
Banana
, he can back me up on this meta.

In this game, I've felt the urge to catch up constantly since it's been like literally 100 posts a day. Not even kidding, do the math. 5 days 500 posts.

AND WHO SAYS I'M PUSHING THE EASY LYNCH? I don't want Veegee lynched right now. The only way you could get this impression is from AJ's vote, and he voted second. I voted Veegee first, and that was something they call a "pressure vote".
In post 481, TheWorst wrote:Keeping my vote on Veegee, still want more from him. Idc if he's an "easy" wagon,
I put my vote on him
not to lynch
, but to have conversation.

First you say
I'm too weak on Veegee
, then you say
I'm "pushing the easy lynch"
. What? Which is it? Stick to one story if you want to try to make me look scummy, because to me it seems that's your only goal so far is tunneling me.

@EVERYONE
There's 9 days left. Would it be more beneficial to lynch now, or to lynch later? Maybe I'm wrong for wanting to talk some more, after all "talking some more" for me meant 100 posts more to look over. I can try to adapt.

I'll continue posting, since that was a wall and in response to one person, still need to address some stuff and engage some more.
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Post Post #533 (ISO) » Mon Sep 21, 2015 7:41 am

Post by Aj The Epic »

I'm generally a fan to not waiting until the deadline because then people just don't show up. I'd like to set a town goal for about Thursday to get this over with but there's conditions. We need Zakk to post, something to happen to Kyub's slot and to figure out perfomer's softclaim. He needs to at least claim a killing power or not.

I'm willing to lynch any lurker on PL, but would think that today should be focused on a final lynch of Performer, Fa_q2 or Verdith.
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Post Post #534 (ISO) » Mon Sep 21, 2015 7:46 am

Post by Vedith »

We might as well talk about who we should lynch after Performer has had his say.
I have a small feeling that he won't comment on it though.
I claim scum \o/
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Post Post #535 (ISO) » Mon Sep 21, 2015 7:47 am

Post by Aj The Epic »

Then we lynch him. It really isn't a choice for him at this point. And if he's claiming VT, I might invoke a LAL on him.
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Post Post #536 (ISO) » Mon Sep 21, 2015 8:12 am

Post by TheWorst »

In post 526, talah wrote:
In post 481, TheWorst wrote:
You gave the impression of being confused after asking all of those questions, not only to choog. I felt like it didn't lead to anything at first, but Luna remains convinced
in post that you were reading AJ in specific by asking those questions. Did you gather anything from those questions?

Is this an unfinished thought?
Can you complete it - and what does Luna being convinced of something have to do with your own assessment?

Fixed in the bold. At least, I think my thought process was going along those lines. I mentioned Luna as an additional perspective of your posts for me to consider, as what I mentioned before is why she views you as town.

In post 526, talah wrote:I feel like someone else has mentioned this - but what's with the false correlary between Zakk and VeeGee?
I get the distinct impression that VeeGee will post more with less votes. What's your vote supposed to achieve?

I was addressing VeeGee's posts talking about how Zakk hasn't given much.
How do you get that impression? Now I'm curious. My vote is with the intent of getting him to talk. Pressure vote.
I'll probably change my vote later if it's not working as you say. Even seems like he'll only be active on the weekend, which is a problem in of itself.

In post 526, talah wrote:
In post 481, TheWorst wrote:
Performer's
posts are annoying to look at, but from what I've seen he has given bits and pieces of insight. Albeit, in annoying emo and disorganized fashion. Not willing to lynch him quite yet, I want to hear more from him. Pressure is fine on him though.
FA_Q
is still bugging me, especially when he ignored the reasons against him. I'm more willing to vote him if need be.

What do you mean by "bits and pieces of insight" from Performer?
Do you have any questions for FAQ yourself?

Performer has had his moments, mainly I thought post got the point against Zakk and understood that VeeGee's activity is a bit of a problem. He's definitely annoying, no question, but I feel as though the supposed gimmick is getting him a wagon more so than usual. Looking over his ISO again in more detail, some posts are pretty damn bad, thought he had better posts first look-through, but I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt for now and I want to hear him respond to the wagon first right now.
Regarding his "soft-claim" which was in that post, I'm not so sure it's a soft-claim or if it's just a question to throw VeeGee off and get a reaction. In which VeeGee responded to by assuming what everyone else was assuming.

I'll ask some questions for others tonight while looking through the game, maybe sooner if I somehow have time during class. At the same time, I'll just participate normally from now on and try to pace myself better.
No more catch-up posts. Hopefully no more walls.
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Post Post #537 (ISO) » Mon Sep 21, 2015 10:46 am

Post by VeeGee »

In post 488, BananaCucho wrote:Explain how its anti town to prod and question you? I'm looking forward to this.

In post 493, BananaCucho wrote:What are you trying to accomplish here? Intentionally trying to get a rise out of me like choof did? A second time? What's to gain from a town perspective? Why can't you just address the concern instead if stooping so low?

He's tryung to turn this into a game ruining fight. Intentionally. Given the game he was referencing before that I can't say anything more on, this is scummy as hell.

In post 495, BananaCucho wrote:In fact I think its comical that Vedith accuses me of being anti town when he's essentially goading a town read of his for apparently no reason other than to try to piss me off. Trying to discredit things I'm pointing out by belittling me. Why would he do that if not scum?


Vedith wrote:
In post 501, Aj The Epic wrote:This post is unacceptable. You know as well as anyone else that no one else can use on-going games so it's largely irrelevant to discussions. And because Banana keeps giving you shit over this, you're refusing to answer his/her questions? More importantly, you've just had this constant train of ad hominem. I don't know in what world you imagine this to be helping but we're functioning on a completely body of work-based record when choosing who's more important to the game-state. I don't think it takes much to gather who's more important using that metric.


Until he starts to actually ask me questions which isn't the same thing over and over I will ignore him.
So before you go into one learn the facts is all I'm saying.


These questions all seem to be different.
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Post Post #538 (ISO) » Mon Sep 21, 2015 10:48 am

Post by VeeGee »

In post 530, talah wrote:Good-o.

Actually I forgot to mention
@VeeGee
@choof


Vote pl0x.

Judging by the position tge gaje's in, I don't think I'll be staying without voting for very long.
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Post Post #539 (ISO) » Mon Sep 21, 2015 11:27 am

Post by catboi »

performer's "softclaim" as it's being talked about was an obvious hypothetical, he absolutely shouldn't be made to claim, and discussion of it should die here and now
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Post Post #540 (ISO) » Mon Sep 21, 2015 11:49 am

Post by talah »

In post 539, catboi wrote:performer's "softclaim" as it's being talked about was an obvious hypothetical, he absolutely shouldn't be made to claim, and discussion of it should die here and now

Well the hypothetical was the softclaim, and I think he said it twice.
Why don't you want him to claim? He'll have to if we're wanting to lynch him anyway.

The other option is the wagon on him goes away because "reasons", as if he had full-claimed the soft claim.

Do you think he's town? If so, why?
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Post Post #541 (ISO) » Mon Sep 21, 2015 1:03 pm

Post by VeeGee »

To be honest, his first Vig claim wasnt a vig claim, as he just said if he shot me, which could also be a scumclaim that he tried to correct by softclaiming vig.


Of course, I'm probably just overanalyzing things.
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Post Post #542 (ISO) » Mon Sep 21, 2015 1:05 pm

Post by catboi »

I mean if he's wagoned, that's fine, but wagoning someone just because of a perceived softclaim is idiotic. And no, I don't think Performer would softclaim scum in-thread.



Not really impressed with the response of theworst in at all but I've absolutely no desire to wall-war as I suspect no one reads those anyway. Will try to be succinct.


Excuses like "I felt as though since that's who everyone focuses on, I decided I may as well give my own perspective on them." do nothing for me, feel as though I've said that exact same thing as scum. It's just a way to avoid taking responsibility and only comment on obvious things, rather than making any genuine effort at scumhunting.

I'm fairly confident on the tell about only commenting on players who have received significant attention already, despite how worst tries to paint it. I just simply can't explain it well, but know it's bad. That's just how it works sometimes. I'm more than perfectly content to tunnel on a singular player who I feel is scummy, have said plenty otherwise about players I feeel are town, no reason whatsoever to divert my focus until I either see a better vote or am made to believe my feelings are wrong. Tonally the line trying to divert attention to veegee/zakk bothers me as well, seems to be attempting to say "what about those guys", and also don't like the implivation I'm giving them "the benefit of the doubt" when I think I've explicitly said said I don't townread them - I might lean toward zakk-town, but that's by no means a read I'd put any level of confidence in.

But the simple reason I'm tunneling TheWorst and not them is I don't give two shakes of my tail about who's putting in "effort". Anyone can do effort. Town players can be lazy. "effort" is a poor way to scumhunt. My concern is with whether or not someone looks genuine. zakk kind of seems like he doesn't give a crap and is openly not trying, at least not right away. Thing is, he doesn't actually seem concerned with looking town. VeeGee, based on past experience, is awkward as hell and a VI. My approach to him, which I think I've said, is to wait and see. I don't expect him to start strong, only way to read him will be to wait and see and as it is the wagon on him looked exceptionally lazy. Entire basis of my attack on TheWorst is that his "effort" looks fake as hell and amounts to some very surface-y analysis with very little in the way of actual conclusions, and a lot of safe, useless statements.

In fact the repeated rhetorical questions Worst asks in response bugs me, because he's seemingly trying to set me up to either have to say not wanting to lynch is scummy, or that I don't find him scummy, and that's not really what I take issue with at all. I understood the post perfectly well, it was just terrible non-analysis that Worst avoids defending by trying to change the argument.

Don't find the pace argument really compelling either, fact is a lot of the posts this game have been very short/spammy and I'm finding no trouble keeping up in spite of only being around in the evenings to post. Of course that's just my experience but in general it comes across that TheWorst spending more time making excuses than he is attempting to actually catch up, also don't necessarily see why being behind on the thread is keeping him from putting forward content as he reads, but I don't see any real attempt at this.

Whatever Worst calls his vote on VVeeGee, it was a zero risk vote that also accomplished absolutely nothing and was done in a lazy attempt to look protown. I've generally a low opinion of people who vote to "pressure" lurky/afk players because it's a very "safe" sort of play.

I don't see how a vote/FoS being weak precludes it it being for an easy lynch, at all. Focus on my use of the phrase "pushing" is just useless semantics - a player can "push" for a lynch weakly, which was my impression at the time but I just addressed the pressure voting claims anyway.

The "lynch now or lynch later" appeal is also weird as hell coming from someone who is admittedly not caught up with the thread, not sure why he'd suggest acquiescing to that at all.

Subsequent post continues to leave me unimpressed by anything he has to say.



and I've failed at being succinct but, whatever~
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Post Post #543 (ISO) » Mon Sep 21, 2015 1:09 pm

Post by catboi »

Also just did a check and I don't think anyone should be townreading I Am Innocent
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Post Post #544 (ISO) » Mon Sep 21, 2015 1:17 pm

Post by VeeGee »

He only has 10 posts, however. I don't feel like that's enough to make a full on read.
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Post Post #545 (ISO) » Mon Sep 21, 2015 1:20 pm

Post by Aj The Epic »

VeeGee, based on past experience, is awkward as hell and a VI. My approach to him, which I think I've said, is to wait and see. I don't expect him to start strong, only way to read him will be to wait and see and as it is the wagon on him looked exceptionally lazy.

Just remember even VIs can draw scum roles.

Where are you with Performer/Faq/Verdith? I know you talked about the verdith interaction a bit but it doesn't seem like you're willing to make any accusations outside of the one with wicked.
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Post Post #546 (ISO) » Mon Sep 21, 2015 1:23 pm

Post by VeeGee »

That's why he said to wait and see.
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Post Post #547 (ISO) » Mon Sep 21, 2015 3:14 pm

Post by I Am Innocent »

I am staring at my computer saying windows is not responding after spending an hour catching up.

Short version on my phone:

Choof has not answered my 2 questions from an earlier post.

AJ did not answer 2 of my questions either.

Vedith did not answer one.

Why would scum performer fake a vig claim with no pressure on him? There is no scum motivation for it, unlike the people itching to get a claim out of him.

Not in that post but want to say right now: choof is probably my top suspect. His voting habits as he started to get pressure were very bad, and now that pressure has abated, he has withdrawn to the background.

Also want to look into this performer wagon, it stinks pretty bad.

unvote AJ
Vote choof


Ps going to leave my computer up all night to see if I can save that post, if it does I'll submit for the other crap I had in there that I can't remember.
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Aj The Epic
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Post Post #548 (ISO) » Mon Sep 21, 2015 3:28 pm

Post by Aj The Epic »

You asked me a rhetorical question and what I thought RVS was. I answered the latter.
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catboi
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Post Post #549 (ISO) » Mon Sep 21, 2015 4:48 pm

Post by catboi »

In post 544, VeeGee wrote:He only has 10 posts, however. I don't feel like that's enough to make a full on read.
I don't think that's true at all but it's also unimportant, and my exact statement was that I don't think someone should have a town read on him. What were you hoping to accomplish with this post?
In post 545, Aj The Epic wrote:
VeeGee, based on past experience, is awkward as hell and a VI. My approach to him, which I think I've said, is to wait and see. I don't expect him to start strong, only way to read him will be to wait and see and as it is the wagon on him looked exceptionally lazy.

Just remember even VIs can draw scum roles.

Where are you with Performer/Faq/Verdith? I know you talked about the verdith interaction a bit but it doesn't seem like you're willing to make any accusations outside of the one with wicked.

I've said repeatedly I lack a townread on him, nya. I don't even like his posts so far. It's just, meh. Low hanging fruit is low hanging fruit.

In all honesty I haven't bothered to parse performer's posts because I hate the gimmick. I seriously don't know how to read it. The early game analysis was poor. I read through his iso and didn't really get anything from it. The "if i were to shoot you" was pretty clearly an attempt to get a reaction from veegee. If anything it's the one thing he's done that seems townish. I don't really scumread him but also wouldn't care if he died at all. Doesn't seem worthy of a vote to me personally, though, and I think the reasons I've seen for voting him are more concerning than his actual play.

I didn't like the way fa_q2 voted performer and their overall play is lackluster. Lean towards scum there.

Verdith doesn't make much sense but I lean toward him genuinely believing the stuff he's saying. Not interested in voting him.

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