Mini 493: Methodical Mafia - Game Over!

[distad]

Well, I guess that we're not going to see eye-to-eye on it, then.

You guys can certainly feel free to deliberate all you want. I've sent my list in already and now I'm going to relax and follow along.

Smoke 'em if you've got 'em.

[Glork]

Note: I will be making each post from here on out as though I had a power role to devise a list for. Not saying that I do or don't, but I don't want anybody to jump to conclusions. I would suggest that everyone else does the same, regardless of their actual role.

I'm leaning more towards agreeing w/Distad here (which is probably not surprising to anybody who has read the thread). I've got a few inklings, but not really anything that I would want to skew the entire on. The lists will be interesting, and I'm not quite sure how they'll affect our day play. But like I said, day-game will likely be, by far, the deciding factor here.


I really think that I've gotten about all I can possibly get out of today. I'm just ready to game on at this point.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Day 0 discussion will not magically become irrelevant Day 1, Glrok(also: distad).

Distad, I see no particular reason why a vig would have an anomalous role. If there's a vig, he's probably Methodical.

And Stoofer only inserted that provision into the rules after Glrok asked him about. I would think that Stoofer would insert it regardless of the actual setup simply to keep us guessing. And if there's a non-methodical role, most likely it's on the side of the scum as that would be one way of discouraging unnecessary claims.

[distad]

The reason I feel that the vig would be the "if it states so in your role PM" person is that vigs can't (logically) randomly fire at will. I don't think I've ever seen a vig kill on Night 0 (and not regret it, at least). Forcing a vig to make a list that he would be bound to would be ultimately foolish, I think.

Stoof might have thrown that in there as a red herring, but we can't assume that he did. As for the non-methodical role being scum, it's a possibility. Although, I think that this game will be more centered on role claims and the disproving therein.

[VitaminR]

When I first read that, I was like "This could maybe work, but I doubt everyone would be cooperative of him in order to get it to work right. If he can figure out how to limit down the possible scum it would work. On the other hand, if he is scum, he can use this to figure out who the powerroles are (if they believe and target him)."

So you think there is a real possibility that, if LML were scum, he'd be a Mafia Watcher?

Glork & distad, I think Day 0 could be very valuable

if

enough players participate, both in helping us compile lists and giving us more info for the Day game.

Flay, I seem to remember it came after a discussion with Seol, which is why I thought the question was directed at him. Regardless, though, it shows a lack of direction that I wouldn't have expected from you.

I like Simenon's entrance into the thread, but I kinda feel he's attaching too much importance to something relatively idiosyncratic.

[BrianMcQueso]

Simenon, it appears you have high expectations from me. Considering that my post was on Page 3 of the game, and discounting a page's worth of posts of simple "/confirms", I had two pages worth of content to comment on. If not talking about LML's plan, even to the point of beating a dead horse, what would you expect me to talk about? In fact, had I not commented on LML's strategy, would I be targeted and persecuted for "ignoring" it and not contributing to the topic of discussion? Am I to be punished simply because others were able to speak on a subject before I was able to? And at least I contributed to some extent rather than lurked.

You have also disregarded my discussion on night choice list strategy and ignored the topic yourself. In my opinion, this should be our primary focus today, as it's the only day we'll get to talk about it in a significant way that will improve our town's play.

Continuing on, Erg0 raised a point I'd like to discuss further:

Simply protecting the towniest players first allows the scum to get free kills on the scummy-looking players early in the game if they choose to take that path with their list.

In a way, this is beneficial to the town. Traditionally, the mafia have sought to preserve the scummier players to draw attention (and lynches) away from themselves. This game is no different in that the mafia have to choose between killing townlier players whom are more likely to be doctor-protected and killing scummier players who are guaranteed kills. It is different in that both doctor and mafia have to choose their strategies up front and can not change them as the game progresses (cop claims being the most significant event to change a strategy). In the end, it still remains a giant WIFOM game that the doctor and mafia will have to play amongst themselves.

On the other hand, it is a greater success for a doctor to negate a nightkill, regardless of how pro-town the player appears, rather than to use the protection on a player benefiting the town that is not targeted. It's something that can't be actively chosen (and only appreciated in hindsight), but it does give the doctor a legitimate reason to protect the scummier players.

The reason I would rather focus on the doctor's strategy is that it would benefit the town more to have a strategically sound doctor. A cop's benefit to the town changes little under this modified setup. Each night they're going to get an investigation result. While that investigation might not fall on the optimal target as each night passes, it's a problem that is unavoidable. A doctor, however, has a legitimate reason to target the same player more than once over the course of the game. The question, in my mind, comes down to:

Is it more strategically sound to protect a select group of pro-town players repeatedly, or to spread out the protection to increase the chances of thwarting the scum?

[Erg0]

That reinforces my basic point, which is that the doctor has more to think about in making his list than the cop does. If the doctor feels able to strategise well enough to make his/her own list then they should do so, in my opinion. That's probably one of the things I'd prefer to keep out of the thread.

[Simenon]

In fact, had I not commented on LML's strategy, would I be targeted and persecuted for "ignoring" it and not contributing to the topic of discussion? Am I to be punished simply because others were able to speak on a subject before I was able to?

That's not the point. Discussing it was okay, but using the same argument

at length

that another player had used. If you had said "QFT!" or "I agree with this because of this this and this" and then had moved on, sure, that would be okay, but your post seemed to be explaining the exact same argument that was used before, except with excessive elaboration. That I find scummy.

And at least I contributed to some extent rather than lurked.

What exactly have you contributed? None of your posts with perhaps the exception of this have actually contributed anything new to the game.

You have also disregarded my discussion on night choice list strategy and ignored the topic yourself.

I fail to see how you added anything new to the topic on both of those issues, so no, I did not ignore them. As far as me ignoring strategy, I will get to game strategy once I'm done with basic scummy posts.

[Seol]

The reason I feel that the vig would be the "if it states so in your role PM" person is that vigs can't (logically) randomly fire at will. I don't think I've ever seen a vig kill on Night 0 (and not regret it, at least). Forcing a vig to make a list that he would be bound to would be ultimately foolish, I think.

The whole point is that this day 0 turns night 0 into night 1, that alone is enough to give some method to a methodical vigilante. Also, it is not unheard of for roles to exist in games for reasons other than to improve their side's chances of winning.

Stoof might have thrown that in there as a red herring, but we can't assume that he did. As for the non-methodical role being scum, it's a possibility.

If one exists, it's almost certainly scum. Also please note that the methodical role implementation has no impact whatsoever on day abilities, if any exist. All that we should take from this at this point however is a spirit of caution - we can't rely on all choices being locked in - not a spirit of optimism.

Although, I think that this game will be more centered on role claims and the disproving therein.

Stoofer doesn't. And, um, he designed the game. Also, with presubmitted lists it's

harder

to prove claims.

And what's with this "enough talking" vibe going around?

BMQ, I'm agreeing with Simenon. Your post felt more than anything like you wanted to

appear

to be contributing (as opposed to actually contributing), which is backed up by:

In fact, had I not commented on LML's strategy, would I be targeted and persecuted for "ignoring" it and not contributing to the topic of discussion? Am I to be punished simply because others were able to speak on a subject before I was able to?

Basically you're saying you made that post because you thought you'd be attacked if you didn't. It's not that you didn't add anything, but that you're excessively concerned with your own appearance.

Also, discussing the doc strategy in-thread? No! Bad BMQ!

Bad

BMQ! That's wrong on

so many

levels.

[Simenon]

Looking back, there really isn't much more as far as scumminess for me to comment on. I thought I had a lot of wishy washy posts, but the fact that we are playing a day where we don't actually need to kill anybody, wishy-washiness isn't really a scumtell. The only thing that has really struck me as peculiar is LML's post:

Hey jackass! I said I could watch MYSELF once. Doofus. You have totally blipped my scumdar. (AKA, I could watch all others)

I have no clue where the wording of this is coming from. It's obviously a dramatic change of tone, but I don't understand why LML felt the need to employ this kind of language. If he's attempting to sound like this was a first reaction, I think it's pretty obviously artificial.

And then Flay's response of "Speak English or Die, Flay" seems a bit planned as well.

I will refresh my memory on the strategic arguments now. However, I think someone should point out that different roles need different strategies, and generalizations don't really work this game (and it's obviously not good to discuss certain power roles unless it can produce a clear benefit).

[Simenon]

Oh, and I hated the suggestion to kill the claimed watcher.

[BrianMcQueso]

Also, discussing the doc strategy in-thread? No! Bad BMQ!

Bad

BMQ! That's wrong on

so many

levels.

Do you want the doctor to protect randomly? Or to make uneducated decisions? If we are not to discuss targeting strategy on the first day, then what are we to do? Sit around and talk about avatars?

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Sit around and accuse others of being scum, maybe?

[Seol]

Also, discussing the doc strategy in-thread? No! Bad BMQ!

Bad

BMQ! That's wrong on

so many

levels.

Do you want the doctor to protect randomly? Or to make uneducated decisions? If we are not to discuss targeting strategy on the first day, then what are we to do? Sit around and talk about avatars?

Spend day 0 as if it's day 1, as I proposed earlier? Give people an opportunity to decide who is acting scummily in this game to give more material on which to base lists?

Also, if doing something is bad, we are better off doing nothing than doing that thing.

I'm against the doctor protecting randomly, but I would rather trust the doctor to make good decisions by themselves than discuss out in the open where the scum can both influence the decision and pick up hints about how best to minimise the impact of the doctor (

especially

if we reach a "conclusion" about the best strategy), or even get clues as to who may be the doctor. Yes, there's a risk that someone will make poor decisions that way, but that's a considerably lesser risk than talking about it.

pseudovote: BrianMcQueso

.

[Nocmen]

major problem on my end, i posted in the V/LA

[Erg0]

I'd say that the same principles about directing power roles that would normally apply also apply here. Anyway, regardless of what we decide the doctor would probably ignore us anyway (if he's smart).

[Simenon]

I agree with Seol's 138, and I think it can be applied to all of the roles (except the vig, as I have no objection to him fireing tonight with a majority). We should treat this as a day one with a three day deadline. That, of course, means an increased activity level.

Vote BMQ

[VitaminR]

I'm not entirely sold on the BMQ thing, but I don't particularly like his responses.

[Mr Stoofer]

Reminder

: The deadline for Day 0 is

9am BST on Wednesday 29th August

. Lists must be sent to me by then. Provisional lists are encouraged.

[Seol]

I make that three pseudovotes on BMQ (CES, me, Simenon) and none on anyone else. Anyone else want to take a position (either for or against anyone) before we go to night?

[Erg0]

I disagree with BMQ's decision, but I don't really think that's a good reason to vig him. I also think that we don't really want to be forcing claims before the lists are submitted, since it gives the scum a heads up.

[VitaminR]

I make that three pseudovotes on BMQ (CES, me, Simenon) and none on anyone else. Anyone else want to take a position (either for or against anyone) before we go to night?

I will vote Mr. Flay tomorrow.

[Erg0]

I prefer VitR's phrasing.

[Seol]

I disagree with BMQ's decision, but I don't really think that's a good reason to vig him. I also think that we don't really want to be forcing claims before the lists are submitted, since it gives the scum a heads up.

I agree that it's premature to either represent that there is a town consensus for a vigilante kill as DIY-lynch or push for a claim (which is the logical conclusion of the former).

[Xdaamno]

Back from a mini-vacation, progress isn't as bad as it could be. Signal/Noise is doing well, but on page 5 I obviously attracted some attention.

VitaminR notes my apparent over-cautious play in 112. There's no logical defence I can provide against that, so I'll just say fair enough. I'll make a point not to rely on everyone else's suspiscions rather than going with my own gut (That might be a character fault of mine, I'm thinking).

In 120, Simenon mentioned my reply. The truth is there wasn't much of a way I

could

respond to that post, so I went with a shitty sarcastic remark.

distad's 123 seems to be flat-out wrong, IMO. His speculation on the vig:

Further, I'd be willing to bet that we DO have a vig in here. Stoof made a point of clarifying the rule that all power roles have to send in a list *unless otherwise specified in the role PM*. There probably is that provision in the vig's pm.

seems to be grasping, and judging by Stoof's tweaking and perfecting the rules I'd bet he had that base covered from the off. Not sure what scum would benifet from pointing this out in the first place, however, so IGMEOY.

Looking onto page 6, most of this stuff seems to already have been pointed out regarding distad; but of the views given, it's more mixed than I expected.

BMQ's rather unhinged on his attention of the game atm. Does this mean he's scum? I see more town players playing loose than scum players, TBH.