Open 42 - Friends and Enemies - (Game Over) before 495

[Shanba]

Mod Edit: Vote Count

YogurtBandit[2](Simenon, Shanba)
Jex[2](Per, Crub)
Simenon[1](Samruc)
Lemming1607[1](Khelvaster)
Crub[1](Jex)
Sir Tornado[1](EmpTyger)
Shanba[1](Sir Tornado)

Not Voting[2](YogurtBandit, Lemming1607)

*fixed, thanks Simenon*

Empy, if you believe me poor at distancing please refer to Tapioca mafia mini normal.

[Simenon]

Mod- I suggest you check over the vote count

Unvote
Vote Sanba

[Lemming1607]

Sir T:
Lemming:
The mod is placing vote counts at the top of each page (ie every 25 posts). Which this post of mine will induce. So, what’s your new excuse for not contributing?

what the hell? there's only been three pages so far, and I work 16 hour days. The reason I asked for a votecount was so that I could post and contribute. What have you done besides call out lurkers and play town leader?

Anyways, not going to get all pissed off. I'm not sure why Emp has had a hostile tone in his recent posts, but hopefully he'll explain himself. There's no reason for that. I just got off a 16 hour shift and came to play a relaxing game of mafia...

There's only been 3 pages, and to me it's just been back and forth between pairs of people. The biggest thing that really strikes me odd is the Yogurt bandwagon, specifically Crub's 4th vote. My gut is saying that at least one of them is scum. Crub then OMGUS'd Jex when he was voted for 4th voting on the bandwagon.

I think he was just joking around, but until he actually contributes going to

Vote: Crub

. I don't like FoSing, just seems like, "well I want to say all this stuff about someone, but don't want to vote him and have my hands bloodied if I'm wrong."

Also hopefully Emp calms down

[Jex]

OMGUS!

unvote;vote Jex

For being scum

Well, my vote had been justified randomness in order to get a reaction, and this was quite an interesting one. I think it's interesting that your retaliation went unnoticed until Lemming's post. I'm keeping my vote on you because I don't really understand the YB bandwagon and think at least one scum joined in on it. In my eyes, you are the most likely to be that scum so far. You have contributed very little, and your OMGUS vote back at me makes me wonder.

[EmpTyger]

<snip>What have you done besides call out lurkers and play town leader?<snip>

Let’s clear some things up right now about this game, for Lemming just as much as for everyone else.

There are no cops. There are no protown nightabilities. There are 3 confirmed innocents. That’s it.

The town will not win unless they can deduce mafia from dayactions.

(I’m going to ignore the possibility of mafia stupidity resulting in a town win, because in that case it almost doesn’t matter what the town does.) That requires players to be active during the day- *all* players. (Strictly speaking, the masons do not have to be active, because their alignment can be ascertained otherwisely; but it’s foolish for them to act differently.)

Now, examine the join dates of the players of this game. Mine is by far the earliest. So, barring replacement shenanigans, I expect to be a high profile target. I think there is a good chance I will not be alive D2. So if I want any chance of affecting the game, I’m going to have to do it *now*.

Look at who’s posted recently. Compare that to who I’ve been calling out. Then compare who hasn’t posted with who I’ve not. It’s an interesting enough correlation (albeit not perfect) that I think I want to follow up [60] with

unvote: Sir Tornado

and

vote: Khelvaster

.

[Crub]

OMGUS!

unvote;vote Jex

For being scum

Well, my vote had been justified randomness in order to get a reaction, and this was quite an interesting one. I think it's interesting that your retaliation went unnoticed until Lemming's post. I'm keeping my vote on you because I don't really understand the YB bandwagon and think at least one scum joined in on it. In my eyes, you are the most likely to be that scum so far. You have contributed very little, and your OMGUS vote back at me makes me wonder.

My vote on YB was randomly pushing the Bandwagon against YB. I personaly don't see why Shanba finds YB scummy but I thought a bit of pressure might prompt YB into posting more than "I don't find it funny" obviously not. Also with this game having Mason's I think there are a whole lot of different possibilities regarding a bandwagon, and whether or not scum is voting on it. My OMGUS response was jokeish, I was trying to make the point I found your reasoning in your vote on me as valid as the reasoning I gave in my vote on you.

unvote

Let me re-read and see if I can make sense of what emp has to say.

[Simenon]

Now, examine the join dates of the players of this game. Mine is by far the earliest. So, barring replacement shenanigans, I expect to be a high profile target. I think there is a good chance I will not be alive D2. So if I want any chance of affecting the game, I’m going to have to do it *now*.

You don't expect the mafia to go after the masons first?

[Sir Tornado]

EmpTyger: It is not my fault that others started building up the YB wagon. I feel odd that you call me out for not giving reasoning for YB vote sooner, and then ignoring my reason altogether (do you find my reason for voting YB scummy?)

Also, I see that YB is lurking more than I was. You haven't called him out for lurking either. May I ask why?

unvote

Vote YogurtBandit

FOS: Shanba

[EmpTyger]

Simenon:

<snip>
You don't expect the mafia to go after the masons first?

They might. They also, assuming the masons are all playing with a hint of intelligence, shouldn't know whether I'm a mason or not by N1.

---

Sir T:

EmpTyger: It is not my fault that others started building up the YB wagon. I feel odd that you call me out for not giving reasoning for YB vote sooner, and then ignoring my reason altogether (do you find my reason for voting YB scummy?)

Also, I see that YB is lurking more than I was. You haven't called him out for lurking either. May I ask why?

You had been posting significantly in other threads on the site. It was your silence I found suspicious, not your initial vote.

For some reason when I was checking posting rates I thought that YB hadn’t been posting anywhere else one mafiascum; rechecking now I see that he hasn’t. This does change things, but I have to run now- will rethink later. Thanks for pointing this out.

[Simenon]

They might. They also, assuming the masons are all playing with a hint of intelligence, shouldn't know whether I'm a mason or not by N1.

In a game where the only power roles are masons, are you suggesting that the masons will be challenging to pick out?

Unvote
Vote YogurtBandit

[/b]

[Sir Tornado]

Simenon: Why are always voting for the same person I am voting?

Unvote

Vote Simenon

Go ahead... vote for yourself :p

[Lemming1607]

<snip>What have you done besides call out lurkers and play town leader?<snip>

Let’s clear some things up right now about this game, for Lemming just as much as for everyone else.

There are no cops. There are no protown nightabilities. There are 3 confirmed innocents. That’s it.

The town will not win unless they can deduce mafia from dayactions.

(I’m going to ignore the possibility of mafia stupidity resulting in a town win, because in that case it almost doesn’t matter what the town does.) That requires players to be active during the day- *all* players. (Strictly speaking, the masons do not have to be active, because their alignment can be ascertained otherwisely; but it’s foolish for them to act differently.)

Now, examine the join dates of the players of this game. Mine is by far the earliest. So, barring replacement shenanigans, I expect to be a high profile target. I think there is a good chance I will not be alive D2. So if I want any chance of affecting the game, I’m going to have to do it *now*.

Look at who’s posted recently. Compare that to who I’ve been calling out. Then compare who hasn’t posted with who I’ve not. It’s an interesting enough correlation (albeit not perfect) that I think I want to follow up [60] with

unvote: Sir Tornado

and

vote: Khelvaster

.

Ok firstly, just because someone has a earlier join date to this site does not mean they are new to mafia...for example me. I've played on other forums quite a few times, and am not new to mafia. Be very careful treading down any, "I'm the earliest join date so therefore this stuff will happen" roads. Talking about who the scum will kill is WIFOM, and just leads to WIFOM arguments later in the game.

You're right about there being no cops, but even if there were investigation roles, that is still not an excuse to lurk. Vanilla townies are just as important to the game as cops, docs, or masons. The less discussion there is the easier it is for the scum to win.

That being said, there is a different mindset when it comes to friends and enemies. In most games, you look for connections between players and deduce scum from those actions...but unfortunately in a game of this type, it is quite easy to out the masons over the scum. If you find connections, be careful about pointing them out and using them as reasons to vote until we know alignments.

Also one thing that scum did in the last Friends and Enemies game was "buddy up" to players, and try to fabricate false connections between other players. Just something to keep in mind.

[Simenon]

Simenon: Why are always voting for the same person I am voting?

Any reason why I shouldn't trust your vote record?

[Samruc]

Unvote, vote: YogurtBandit

He still hasn't answered what he meant with his FoSes in the beginning.

[Lemming1607]

Rereading the page, I see Crub defended himself. I saw his OMGUS vote as a joke, and that's what he says, so

UNVOTE: Crub

I will look at Yogurt tonight after work

[EmpTyger]

Simenon:

<snip>In a game where the only power roles are masons, are you suggesting that the masons will be challenging to pick out?<snip>

If played correctly, yes, at least initially. As the game proceeds, perhaps not.

And, let me turn it around: In a game where the only powerroles are masons (who know that they’re the only powerrole), are you suggesting that the masons *won’t* be challenging to pick out?

---

Lemming:

Ok firstly, just because someone has a earlier join date to this site does not mean they are new to mafia...for example me. I've played on other forums quite a few times, and am not new to mafia. Be very careful treading down any, "I'm the earliest join date so therefore this stuff will happen" roads.

Good for you. Now, when the mafia are deciding who to kill, and who’re threats, do they have any idea about your personal history? No. If you want me to point to recent relevant precedents, I can.

Talking about who the scum will kill is WIFOM, and just leads to WIFOM arguments later in the game.

You're right about there being no cops, but even if there were investigation roles, that is still not an excuse to lurk. Vanilla townies are just as important to the game as cops, docs, or masons. The less discussion there is the easier it is for the scum to win.<snip>

I completely agree about this. I wasn’t advocating doing something based on what the mafia would or wouldn’t do. Rather, I was defending myself against your “what have you done for us” accusation. Because I’m not got to lurk quietly around because it’s only page X and day Y. I’m not going to assume that I’ll be around to share my thoughts on a later day. If I see something suspicious, I’m going to state it.

Also one thing that scum did in the last Friends and Enemies game was "buddy up" to players, and try to fabricate false connections between other players. Just something to keep in mind.

Do you feel this has happened in this game, either in general or in a specific circumstance?

---

YB:
Still not sure how I missed your lurking, but Sir T is entirely right. I still like my vote on Khelv at the moment, but that may change if you do not start contributing.

[Sir Tornado]

Any reason why I shouldn't trust your vote record?

Yes. I hate when people agree with me all the time. It makes me think they are trying to make some sort of connection with me, and usually only scum do that sort of thing. That sort of play by scum was precisely the reason why the scum won the last F and E.

[Simenon]

And, let me turn it around: In a game where the only powerroles are masons (who know that they’re the only powerrole), are you suggesting that the masons *won’t* be challenging to pick out?

In my mind, unless the masons were deliberately dodging the connection, yes. Frankly, I don't think many of these players have enough experience around masons to be able to hide such a connection easily.

[EmpTyger]

<shrug>

Masons:
Don’t be stupid.

[Lemming1607]

First of all, I think we need to talk about masons and connections. All that does is allow discussion about our only power role, and allows the scum to look for mistakes from the masons to easier pick them out. It does nothing but hurt the town to talk about this.

Good for you. Now, when the mafia are deciding who to kill, and who’re threats, do they have any idea about your personal history? No. If you want me to point to recent relevant precedents, I can.

There is still no reason to discuss who the mafia is going to kill. I made my point, and any further discussion is setting us up for WIFOM later on down the road.

Do you feel this has happened in this game, either in general or in a specific circumstance?

So far the only thing I've seen has been "obvious" connections and those people have already been called out on it, and I'm not going to repeat it. It's mostly something to keep in mind as the game progresses.

Again, we need to drop the mason discussion. It does nothing but hurt town

[Lemming1607]

First of all, I think we need to stop talking about masons and connections. All that does is allow discussion about our only power role, and allows the scum to look for mistakes from the masons to easier pick them out. It does nothing but hurt the town to talk about this.

Good for you. Now, when the mafia are deciding who to kill, and who’re threats, do they have any idea about your personal history? No. If you want me to point to recent relevant precedents, I can.

There is still no reason to discuss who the mafia is going to kill. I made my point, and any further discussion is setting us up for WIFOM later on down the road.

Do you feel this has happened in this game, either in general or in a specific circumstance?

So far the only thing I've seen has been "obvious" connections and those people have already been called out on it, and I'm not going to repeat it. It's mostly something to keep in mind as the game progresses.

Again, we need to drop the mason discussion. It does nothing but hurt town

[Lemming1607]

sorry about the quote, but I typoed something that kinda messed up the entire thing, as you can plainly see. I don't want to triple post either, but I'd rather keep different subjects in different posts. I don't have alot of time in the day to post so I gotta do what I can

As for the Yogurt Bandwagon:

this was his really confusing FoS post:

-...5 Ithink on the 1st page=not cool.

Fos: Simneon

Also, SDamrucs reactions seem scummy.

Mfos:Samruc

the Samrucs one I understand, since it's why I voted for him page 1. But the simenon one is a complete mystery. When everyone jumped on him his only defense was:

I really dont like everyone joking around with the whole stuff.

I didn't like his FoS'. This early in the game you don't need to worry about lynching too fast. FoS' are really for lylo so you don't end the game or when you've already voted someone. To me it just says, "I want people to start looking at this but I don't want my hands dirty if he turns up innocent." Townies don't need to look innocent, we are innocent.

And then after his only defense he's pretty much disappeared from the game. It could be a vanilla townie "giving up," or possibly scum hoping everyone forgets about them/him...either way it hurts us because that person doesn't add anything to the game.

I'm going to

Vote: YogurtBandit

. I believe this puts him at lynch - 1. If YB gets replaced, then I'll unvote.

Also Per hasn't posted in the last few days, could we get a prod?

[EmpTyger]

I’m going to be rather busy until Friday, and am not sure whether I will get a chance to post before Saturday. Apologies in advance. I trust the town will manage to have lurkers called out and be led should I be absent.

[Shanba]

Unvote

The case there was on YB was weak. I voted for him and I admit that. Why, therefore, is this wagon growing this quickly and is this big? Unhappy bout that.

unvote vote lemming

[Sir Tornado]

Vote: YB

to put him back on -1.

This was my wagon. I want to be on it if YB gets lynched.