Mini 497 - Game Over

[destructor]

About Nekka:

Though your attempt to get a gift wrapped reason to jump on a (dying) wagon is noted.

This was a 'spin' you put on Nekka's post. I agree that it isn't a good play to ask other people to give you reasons for deciding whether a player is scum or not. But perhaps that is as far as Nekka was going. I don't believe there was anything in his post that was was inherently scummy, but you presented it as if it was.

About SilverPhoenix:

Likewise, SP's defense of Dusterhan is noted. This post is suspect, because you call a random vote absurd.

Phoenix's post was more about TinVision than dusterhan. Seen in a certain light, you could say that it was defending dustrehan, but to me that seems like a stretch.

I should admit that I may have read the line about Phoenix calling a 'random vote absurd' incorrectly. I didn't notice that Phoenix had refered to Tin's vote as 'random' in his post. Regardless, your framing of this is still questionable. My reading of Phoenix's post saw his criticism of Tin's vote revolving not around it being random, but it's 'absurd' reasoning. I think this was clear enough.

In all cases, Sephiroth, you appear to be presenting the posts in a manner that makes them more suspicious than they really are.

[Sephiroth]

What you may see as suspicious is only my playstyle. By making suggestions such as my 'gift wrapped reason' comment force players to respond and defend themselves. Its simply my way of getting reactions and creating discussion.

I certainly do not understand your point about SP. The point I was making is that SP admits the vote is nothing more than a random vote. If the reasons for the vote are joking/random, then how can its absurdity be suspect? The vote is random. People throw in little joke reasons to brighten up the game, but its still a random vote. Calling the reasons for a random vote absurd is in fact quite an absurd accusation.

[joost]

The point I was making is that SP admits the vote is nothing more than a random vote. If the reasons for the vote are joking/random, then how can its absurdity be suspect? The vote is random.

Assuming we are still about the same vote (Tinvision voting for Knuck), I agree with Destructor that it wasn't exactly random. Tinvision voted for SP first then switched his vote for some strange reason. If the vote was random why change it?

[Sephiroth]

As I said earlier, it is a matter of opinion when the random stage has ended. I will leave it up to tinvision whether or not it actually was. My point is that SP himself calls the vote random and calls the reasoning absurd in the same post, which is a contradiction.

[Atticus]

On Random Votes:

The point of random votes is to gain early vibes and suspicions of people. To give a truly random vote, say from random.org, you can get no reaction from the votee, and thus, no vibe or suspicion. To give a reason for a random vote is fueling this activity, increasing its productivity. To truly suspect someone for a random vote, random FoS, or random vote reason, is degrading to the information process. To

react

to the such things, however, helps the town.

[kabenon007]

I do not see dusterhan so much as scummy, just incredibly unhelpful. Basically all his posts so far have contained is just funny and confusing quips. I don't see this as particularly scummy, just extremely unhelpful. We cannot get any information out of funny anecdotes. But this is not scummy, so much as newbish. So I dont see dusterhan as scummy... yet.

[Aimee]

I do not see dusterhan so much as scummy, just incredibly unhelpful.

I agree with this.

In fact, I'm far more inclined to look at those who

do

find it scummy, mainly Sephiroth, who has probably been the most against dusterhan so far.

FoS: Sephiroth

[Nirp]

I do not see a problem with unvoting a random vote and randomly (or jokingly) voting someone else during the random voting stage. As Atticus has said, random votes are not very useful unless they gain us information. At any rate, TinVision doesn't seem very scummy to me, although his FoS was slightly out of place. I assume this was meant in jest, however.

I also agree that dusterhan is not necessarily scummy, but his behavior is nevertheless odd and I am still keeping an eye on him. All of dusterhans posts have been at the beginning of the game (as far as I can tell, he hasn't posted recently), so 'funny anecdotes' were not entirely out of place at that point. That said, I would like to see more from him now - a post explaining his previous actions and actually adding something to the game would be nice.

One thing that has stood out to me is this quote:

Though your attempt to get a gift wrapped reason to jump on a (dying) wagon is noted.

This statement seems rather aggressive given the context, and I am not sure what exactly you mean by "dying wagon". Which wagon, and how is it dying? As far as I can tell, there has never really been much of a wagon for dusterhan.

[Sephiroth]

In fact, I'm far more inclined to look at those who

do

find it scummy, mainly Sephiroth, who has probably been the most against dusterhan so far.

FoS: Sephiroth

This post is ridiculous...First, going with the flow is scummy on it's own (and I think that was why he voted as he did). Second, saying something like "or was I?" Is simply confusing to the town, and therefore, anti town. I'm liking Duster less and less every time he posts.

The biggest attack I had on Duster. I said I was liking him less and less, I didnt even actually call him suspicious in any of my posts, simply call that one post suspect.

This statement seems rather aggressive given the context, and I am not sure what exactly you mean by "dying wagon". Which wagon, and how is it dying? As far as I can tell, there has never really been much of a wagon for dusterhan.

If you hadnt noticed, I play aggressively. It starts conversations. The wagon of which I speak is the Duster wagon, which only reached 2. I'll admit, not much of a wagon (though there were others expressing suspicion). When I say it was dying, I mean that it was starting to fade (ie people moving on to other issues). It's a fairly common term.

[Knuck]

I agree that Sephiroths posts are aggressive but at this stage of the game I don't think that's too much of a problem considering were not going to be jumping on peoples bandwagons this early. Any answers or defense from a player right now is what we need and that is one way to do it.

Saying that though I wonder if this is just a backpedal as he knows no one else is thinking Dusterhan is scum at this point and doesn't want to get caught trying to single a new town player out.

And as much as I think Tinvisions vote may have been random he still hasn't changed it or posted about it much in any way. Maybe it was random, maybe he thought I was scum and trying to lurk my walk through the first round, maybe he is scum hoping he could start a rally against me for my slow play off the start.


Right now anything is possible for anyone and over analyzation and aggressive play isn't too suspicious but something to keep in mind for the later stages and see if that same play continues from those same people.

[Atticus]

Heehee, Sephiroth's second quote box says Elias.

[Nekka-Lucifer]

I'm not going to be able to post as much as I would have hoped. Probably 2 a day seeing I have started school again.

[Aimee]

The biggest attack I had on Duster. I said I was liking him less and less, I didnt even actually call him suspicious in any of my posts, simply call that one post suspect.

No, you quite clearly also say that "going with the flow is scummy", and then say he is confusing and "anti-town". This most certainly suggests that you find him scummy.

Also,

FoS: Atticus

. I notice he's managed to post a number of times, yet hasn't actually commented on any of the major issues at this point.

[joost]

Also, FoS: Atticus. I notice he's managed to post a number of times, yet hasn't actually commented on any of the major issues at this point.

I have noticed this too, Atticus contributed little more than a few oneliners and generalities. He strikes me as a player who just doesn't like to say a lot, but I got my eye on him.

Also I'd like Dusterham to post a bit more, especially since he's been put on pressure. The fact that he still hasn't responded makes me more suspicious of him. My vote stays where it is.

[Atticus]

What major issues?

[joost]

What major issues?

Well for instance, Dusterhan causing confusion and remaining silent after he got confronted about it and Tinvision "randomly" changing his vote from Silver Phoenix to Knuck to "fight him".

Those two are at the moment the major issues it seems. Well that and the fact that you don't seem to add much content to the discussion.

[Sephiroth]

The biggest attack I had on Duster. I said I was liking him less and less, I didnt even actually call him suspicious in any of my posts, simply call that one post suspect.

No, you quite clearly also say that "going with the flow is scummy", and then say he is confusing and "anti-town". This most certainly suggests that you find him scummy.

And I'M supposed to be the one who's spinning words?

I quite clearly say I consider one action that he took to be suspect. Not that he was scummy. Pretty much everyone here has been guilty of at least one action I've found suspect, but do I think everyone is scummy? No. Also, I didn't call him anti town or confusing, I said his comment was. There is a LARGE difference between calling a single action from him confusing and anti town as opposed to him in general. All that post implied was that his posts were hurting the town, and that he took one action that I thought was suspect. Furthermore, calling someone anti town =/= calling them scum. You're saying that they are hurting the town, which means absolutely nothing about alignment, since it could easily be a bad townie. Please try to not put words in my mouth, and please, in the future, I ask you to appreciate the distinction between my opinions of independent actions and of the people making those actions.

I second the notion for Atticus to voice his opinions.

[Atticus]

Dusterhan: I'm in another game with him right now, where his opening post was unhelpful and caused general confusion. I'm ignoring him.

TinVision: See my rather previous post on Random votes. I don't mind anything he did, I see it as having been in the random stage.

[dusterhan]

what's the latest vote count?

[destructor]

I feel a need to clarify what my issue with Tin's 'random' votes was. It was not the votes themselves, but

what he said about them

. He called them random, yet the way he treated them didn't seem to ring true to this, even in light of Atticus' post on random votes (Post 79). I believe TinVision's post explaining his actions (Post 67) comes across as being

dishonest

, which is my issue. This is not something I would expect from a pro-Town player.

---

Sephiroth, according to your post immediately after my last one, what was it that was notable about Phoenix's post, then? That he called the random vote absurd, or that he called the

reason

for the vote absurd? The latter would seem to make more sense, but you did in fact clearly call the former suspect first. Two posts later, you say this:

My point is that SP himself calls the vote random and calls the reasoning absurd in the same post, which is a contradiction.

This

wasn't

your original point, according to the wording you used. It seems like you reshaped your criticism of Poenix over those two posts.

Regarding dusterhan, I agree with you, Sephiroth, when you say that there is a distiction between describing actions and describing a player. I don't think anyone will doubt that dusterhan's actions have been anti-town, for the reasons you stated. But despite the distinction between actions and players, we draw attention to actions as a reflection on the player. You DID draw suspicion to dusterhan, probably more than anyone else has.

But I think this is a minor point right now.

I feel like Sephiroth has a lot of heat on him at the moment, and half the reason for this is that he's actually posting, so I'm going to lay off for a bit. TinVision, on the other hand hasn't said a word since I voted for him.

I third the Atticus thing. He's posting, but it's minimal. The most he's said only came after he was FOS'd.

[SilverPhoenix]

@Sephiroth: I understand your statement about absurdity. I wasn't FoSing him for his reasoning behind his random votes, but for what I explained in my next post, which was the fact that he had 3 votes and a FoS in 2 pages. Votehopping like that, even in the random stage, is ultimately confusing me, and any posts meant to confuse is anti-town.

@Atticus: So do you think that my and destructor's actions are unwarranted?

[Aimee]

I quite clearly say I consider one action that he took to be suspect. Not that he was scummy. Pretty much everyone here has been guilty of at least one action I've found suspect, but do I think everyone is scummy? No. Also, I didn't call him anti town or confusing, I said his comment was.

Yeah, okay.

I can understand this opinion actually. Normally when someone says "X did something which I find scummy", it normally implies that you are suspicious of X.

However, since I haven't seen it clearly displayed anywhere - are you at this point suspicious of dusterhan?

I'm most unimpressed with Atticus' "content". Try harder, kthx.

[joost]

I really don't understand the difference between a player and his/her actions.

Dusterhan made exactly 3 posts this game, 2 of which are confusing at least and scummy at best. His third post is when he asked for a vote count. And then of course there is the fact that he didn't react to the pressure that was put on him and when he finally posts he adds no content.

I really don't understand how all of a player's actions can be suspicious but the player himself is not.

I say: "X did nothing which I didn't find suspicious" and that does imply that I am in fact suspicous of dusterhan at the moment.

[kabenon007]

I think that in the cases we are looking at, people are saying that dusterhan made a mistake, that he was exhibiting newbish tendencies. While his actions might appear scummy, appear is the key word. Sometimes newb actions can be mistaken for scummy actions. It's not an excuse for sloppy actions, but that is the difference people are hinting at. He isn't acting so much scummy, he just isn't really helping the town too much. Do you understand now, joost, or shall I elaborate a bit more?

[joost]

Well I agree that he's acting newbish, but I think it's more like newbie scum than newbie pro-town. Thanks Kabenon, there's no need to elaborate.