Mini 493: Methodical Mafia - Game Over!

[Mr Stoofer]

Vote Count

Mr. Flay: 2 (VitaminR, Glork)
BrianMcQueso: 2 (Simenon, Erg0)
Glork: 1 (CES)
VitaminR: 1 (Mr. Flay)
Simenon: 1 (distad)

Not voting: BrianMcQueso, Nocmen, Xdaammo

Six

votes to lynch!

Deadline:

9.30am BST Wednesday 12th September.

[Nocmen]

...While I don't like Glork's attitude to this game, it does seem like he really doesn't care and wants to be targetted because he is "useless". I also can't really tell if that is more of a protown or a proscum vibe.

Though I really don't like the way distad has come off so defensive during these last two posts.

Erg0...just jumping on a bandwagon...that seems to me the scummiest.

Vote: Erg0

[distad]

Of course it was defensive. I was *defending* myself. o.O

[Mr. Flay]

As regards VitR, the question that everyone is apparently waiting with bated breath on is "Erm... what crap-logic?" - however later posts have clarified why he'd vote for me without ascribing to the dominant theory (more on that later).

In response to #1 from the followup post, my belligerence toward LML is real and goes back to previous games we've played together. Lee is a very aggressive player and I respond in kind, plus we have a positive rapport that tends to build discussion. In that sense, I'm sad to see him go, and wish he hadn't been quite so cavalier about outing his role and painting a target on his own back. Regarding #2, what else did you expect to do Day Zero except discuss how to proceed? Presumably the point of that exercise was to allow people to make semi-informed decisions if they had lists to create, and I wasn't the only one doing it. I think your singling me out was bad logic, but you're far from the scummiest person around at this point.

Unvote: VitaminR, Vote: Glork

who is unhelpful

in addition

to being opportunistic. Simenon would be a close second choice, if the bandwagon leans that way, for the already addressed SK theory and paradoxically for the fact that he

dropped

my wagon yesterday, after lobbying so hard for it on previous pages. I think this theory that I'm the SK because I mentioned the "SKs claim Vigilante" metagame is absurd. Give me a *little* credit for not being completely transparent, will you?? But latching onto that is opportunistic and counterproductive in my view.

I've scanned the thread since that exchange on page 8, and don't see any other specific questions, but let me know if I missed one. I'm still a little overwhelmed with catching up here...

[Glork]

Unhelpful? I've already told you that Simenon is town. Clearly a misrepresentation.

And it's not opportunism if I'm jumping on scum.

[distad]

You've told us that Simenon is town.

That's great.

Um... WHY?

[Glork]

...and wish he hadn't been quite so cavalier about outing his role and painting a target on his own back.

Does this mean you think that the kill on LmL was not determined by truly random means?

[Glork]

You've told us that Simenon is town.

That's great.

Um... WHY?

Mostly 'cause I said so.

[Mr. Flay]

Does this mean you think that the kill on LmL was not determined by truly random means?

I don't know what "randomly slain" means - do you? What I mean is that by describing his role, he made himself more likely to be a nightkill target, and I don't see how he didn't know that - even if we had a Doctor, two killers could have taken him out if they'd both targeted him. Why we had two deaths instead of a double-kill, I'm not clear on.

Glork, you have to convince others for your "knowledge" to do any good....

[Glork]

Glork, you have to convince others for your "knowledge" to do any good....

Silly Flay, what Glork says is law around here! Did you not see the role somebody devised where anybody "Glork" helped to lynch became Mafia upon their death?

But if you want an explanation, it's almost entirely meta-based. This sounds like protown Simenon, whereas I recently saw scum-Simenon who behaved differently. I realize that won't do you or Distad much good, but it's what I've got, and I feel comfortable enough with that read to state that I think he's protown.


And no, I don't know what "Randomly slain" means, but my gut reaction was to believe that it was truly random. I'm not a big fan of random actions, but I've definitely seen Random SKs before (such as armlx's Random 2 comes to mind first, which was won by a Random SK). I figured that the Mafia's kill was methodical, and the random kill was from an SK.

[Simenon]

Simenon would be a close second choice, if the bandwagon leans that way, for the already addressed SK theory and paradoxically for the fact that he dropped my wagon yesterday, after lobbying so hard for it on previous pages.

That's because you weren't there, silly. Not much use wagoning someone who isn't going to post.

I think this theory that I'm the SK because I mentioned the "SKs claim Vigilante" metagame is absurd. Give me a *little* credit for not being completely transparent, will you?? But latching onto that is opportunistic and counterproductive in my view.

lol
1. I assume you think it's conterproductive because I was on it and you said it.
2. Quoting text from three weeks ago doesn't sound very opportunistic. I assume you think it's opportunistic because I was on it and you said it.
3. I felt I was making a valid point and pursuing said valid point. Disagreeing with it is fine, but it's not anti town.

[Mr. Flay]

Glork, you have to convince others for your "knowledge" to do any good....

Silly Flay, what Glork says is law around here! Did you not see the role somebody devised where anybody "Glork" helped to lynch became Mafia upon their death?

Ahhh, that would be the Kingmaker saga? No, I missed that during my hiatus from playing, apparently...

[sarcasm]*goes to add the Glorkinator role to the wiki*[/sarcasm]

But if you want an explanation, it's almost entirely meta-based. This sounds like protown Simenon, whereas I recently saw scum-Simenon who behaved differently. I realize that won't do you or Distad much good, but it's what I've got, and I feel comfortable enough with that read to state that I think he's protown.

Cool, that's what I wanted to hear:

some

reasoning, even if it was personal/gut.

An SK who was free to act w/o making a list might be a good balancer in a game of this type, but I can't really see the appeal of random actions. But that's getting even more meta-, especially on D1...

That's because you weren't there, silly. Not much use wagoning someone who isn't going to post.

I can't say as I understand that logic. I said when I was getting back in town, I'd started to respond already, and it's not like I was going to disappear/be replaced...

Of course I see it as "counterproductive" to bandwagon me when I know my alignment, but that's unprovable to anyone else. What I don't get is dropping a bandwagon because of a *lack* of defense... I'm not clear what happened with the copy-paste error in the end of your sentence, but since the statement was made three weeks ago, why wouldn't it be "opportunistic" to make a case based on it when actual voting started?

[Erg0]

Ask yourself this: if the SK were truly random, what are the odds that on Night 1 he would randomly kill the only claimed power role?

(Well 1 in 11, obviously, but hopefully you see my point)

Nocmen, that's just a lazy vote. It's like you only read the last two pages and picked the first thing that jumped out at you.

[Simenon]

I can't say as I understand that logic. I said when I was getting back in town, I'd started to respond already, and it's not like I was going to disappear/be replaced...

The game dies if we are all expecting to hear from a player that won't show up. Even if the absense is temporary, it's still reason to back off.

Of course I see it as "counterproductive" to bandwagon me when I know my alignment, but that's unprovable to anyone else.

That's silly. A wagon on anyone is productive.

I'm not clear what happened with the copy-paste error in the end of your sentence, but since the statement was made three weeks ago, why wouldn't it be "opportunistic" to make a case based on it when actual voting started?

The word opportunistic implies a mafia member seized the chance attack something.

[Glork]

Ask yourself this: if the SK were truly random, what are the odds that on Night 1 he would randomly kill the only claimed power role?

(Well 1 in 11, obviously, but hopefully you see my point)

*shrug*
Bad luck happens. If it didn't, I'd be a millionaire by now.


The reason I think it's random is because the signups and opening post indicated to me (fairly clearly, I might add) that nobody would be able to choose night actions after D0 had finished. I wanted to doublecheck this with Stoof, but instead of confirming that, he chose to put in the "unless your role specifies" clause. I honestly think that he did so to antagonize me, partly because of the whole "I didn't read my role" bit.

The one loophole I had noticed would have been the use of day actions (such as a one-shot mafia daykill), since the rules specified that only night actions had to be determined by the end of D0. However, I don't know if Stoof would've come up with that, and we obviously haven't had a kill yet.

[distad]

But if it is certainly not in our best interest to role claim, I'm inclined to believe that there are night choices that are "phoned in" each night.

[Erg0]

Agreed. Not that we really need to reach a consensus on this, since I guess it's really up to the individual to decide whether they want to try and act in such a way as to avoid a non-random, non-methodical SK killing them.

[Mr Stoofer]

The reason I think it's random is because the signups and opening post indicated to me (fairly clearly, I might add) that nobody would be able to choose night actions after D0 had finished. I wanted to doublecheck this with Stoof, but instead of confirming that, he chose to put in the "unless your role specifies" clause. I honestly think that he did so to antagonize me, partly because of the whole "I didn't read my role" bit.

This makes me sad. I would never do anything deliberately to antagonise any of the players in this game. I said what I said because I didn't want you to know the answer to your question -- you'll find out post-game.

But in a spirit of goodwill and sharing of information, I will tell you that in my view, there is no place for random roles in Mafia.

[Erg0]

And that, I suspect, is that.

Can we talk about something useful now?

[Simenon]

Like a BMQ wagon.

[distad]

Unvote, Vote: BMQ

I did a quick re-read and page 6 is rife with anti-BMQ points that I agree with.

[VitaminR]

In response to #1 from the followup post, my belligerence toward LML is real and goes back to previous games we've played together. Lee is a very aggressive player and I respond in kind, plus we have a positive rapport that tends to build discussion. In that sense, I'm sad to see him go, and wish he hadn't been quite so cavalier about outing his role and painting a target on his own back.

I just got the feeling you were trying to bring out his "loud" side.

Regarding #2, what else did you expect to do Day Zero except discuss how to proceed? Presumably the point of that exercise was to allow people to make semi-informed decisions if they had lists to create, and I wasn't the only one doing it. I think your singling me out was bad logic, but you're far from the scummiest person around at this point.

You were the only player to do that. I didn't single you out. You're very quick to call something "bad logic."

Unvote: VitaminR, Vote: Glork

who is unhelpful

in addition

to being opportunistic. Simenon would be a close second choice, if the bandwagon leans that way, for the already addressed SK theory and paradoxically for the fact that he

dropped

my wagon yesterday, after lobbying so hard for it on previous pages. I think this theory that I'm the SK because I mentioned the "SKs claim Vigilante" metagame is absurd. Give me a *little* credit for not being completely transparent, will you?? But latching onto that is opportunistic and counterproductive in my view.

This has a scummy "building a case on one player, but voting the other"-feel, and I don't like either cases. Calling Glork unhelpful is a stretch and I don't see how joining a wagon is necessarily all that scummy. Your Simenon case is also not that convincing.

We need to be lynching Flay today.

I've scanned the thread since that exchange on page 8, and don't see any other specific questions, but let me know if I missed one. I'm still a little overwhelmed with catching up here...[/quote]

[distad]

Okay... you've made it abundantly clear that Flay is your choice for the day. I don't agree, but fine. I'm just asking if you'd be willing to entertain the thought of investigating others today for future looks. In particular, what do you think of Simenon's BMQ "wagon"?

[BrianMcQueso]

I know this is gonna sound biased because he's trying to lead a 'wagon on me, but I'm really not a fan of Simenon at this point. Go through the filter of his posts, there's really not anything there that could be helpful to anyone. Maybe I'm just really against one-sentence posts (and lord knows Simenon isn't the only one guilty of that), but I'm just saying be wary of who you are trusting to lead this wagon.

I did a quick re-read and page 6 is rife with anti-BMQ points that I agree with.

Another example of one-sentence posts that are extremely unhelpful. Joining a bandwagon without any real explanation to accompany it. What, specifically, do you agree with? What parts of my play do you find scummy, so that I can address them? I demand specifics.

[VitaminR]

Okay... you've made it abundantly clear that Flay is your choice for the day. I don't agree, but fine. I'm just asking if you'd be willing to entertain the thought of investigating others today for future looks. In particular, what do you think of Simenon's BMQ "wagon"?

I'm perfectly willing to look at others. I outlined my opinion of everyone in the game in the post before that.

I think the wagon has some merit and BMQ hasn't really posted anything to make me think he's pro-town, but the points against him aren't that strong and I could easily see a town player behaving like he has.