Newbie 480: Game Over!

[ZeekLTK]

vote: Ripley

Random.

[ZeekLTK]

Two votes early on day 1 is not a big deal. If everyone split their votes evenly so that we all had 1 each at the end of random voting then we might as well not vote at all. Asking someone to remove a second vote seems a little panicky to me.

It seems very panicky to me. Here is his post:

No just me...Porochaz, you might want to reconsider that vote, cause I'm so civil it's disgusting. I'm starting to wish I had chosen a different name, but since we are rolling, here's my obligatory point-back. vote: leetonicon

So first he panics and asks that a vote be reconsidered (and why is he only asking one of the two people voting for him to remove it? Why would you not ask both people? Why is he "okay" with leetonicon voting for him but not Porochaz??), then he casts a vote that for some reason he feels he has to justify, so he tells us he is "obligated" to cast an OMGUS vote (which he most certainly is NOT obligated to do... I don't think anyone else did).

K whilst im waiting for someone to post can one of the ics tell me how to watch a topic, thanks.

I don't get what you mean here by "waiting for someone to post"...

[ZeekLTK]

Zeek's points seem like a bit of a reach - I assumed the reason that CS asked Porochaz in particular to unvote was that he was the one that had just put on the second vote. If he'd asked leetonicon to unvote, that would be a different story. Also, it seemed fairly obvious to me that CS did not literally mean that he was obligated by the rules to vote for Porochaz. Coming after a few people had already expressed suspicion of CS, this looks like either overeager scumhunting or scum trying very hard to look like town.

I don't see how it's a reach considering I never tried to make much of a case - I was just pointing out how I saw the situation and asking a lot of questions about it. I didn't even change my vote, so to me it seems like you're the one making a reach by trying to divert attention away from CS onto someone else (me).

Why can I not wonder why he only asked one person to remove their vote rather than everyone who had voted him? That doesn't seem strange to you? If he is genuinely concerned about being at L-2 you would think that he'd say "you guys are making a mistake voting for me, could you guys reconsider your votes?" instead of only asking one person.

What I really want to figure out is WHY is CS completely ignoring leet's vote, but making such a big deal about Porochaz's? This is basically what happened (as I saw it at least):

Both leet and Porochaz vote for CS with their random votes.

CS "panics" and asks Porochaz to remove his vote, while barely acknowledging leet's vote and only doing so with an "OMGUS" vote at the end of his post that he spent talking to Porochaz.

The next post completely ignores leet's vote and again asks Porochaz to remove his vote.

Later, while still ignoring leet's vote, CS makes another somewhat "panicky" move by basically saying "well if you aren't going to take me off L-2 I am going to put you on it" and votes for Porochaz.

Does this series of events not seem suspicious? Especially the fact that two people voted for him for basically the same reason and he is treating each vote extremely different (he is very upset that Porochaz is voting him, yet doesn't seem to notice/care that leet is doing the same). It seems very odd to me.


Also... "obligatory" was not even a main point of my post either, so I don't know why you are attacking me about that. I mentioned it once, at the very end, as kind of an after thought of "he did all this... and oh yeah, he said something odd as well..." wasn't as big of a deal as you're making it out to be. Seems to me you are the one being picky and attacking people about insignificant specifics.

[ZeekLTK]

Ok, quotes:

vote Civil Scum

I have reason to believe he's not civil at all!!!

No just me...Porochaz, you might want to reconsider that vote, cause I'm so civil it's disgusting. I'm starting to wish I had chosen a different name, but since we are rolling, here's my obligatory point-back.

vote: leetonicon

Do you see how he was responding to Porochaz saying that he wasn't civil? It looks to me like a play on words or somesuch. He addresses one of his voters, and then the other. I really think this specific point has been seriously blown out of proportion, and is receiving far more attention than it should. The reason this came into focus was that Porochaz responded to CS's post with a comment about reconsidering his vote, while leetonicon didn't.

It could be a "play on words" if that was the only time he brought it up, but it's not.

Post #12 he again asks Porochaz (and only Porochaz) to reconsider the vote.

Then Post #20 he basically says that since Porochaz wouldn't take his vote off, he is going to vote for Porochaz to put him at L-2 as well.

During these two posts he says nothing about leet's vote. So again, WHY is he so concerned about Porochaz's vote but doesn't seem to care about leet's?? And why are YOU trying to defend him so much?

[ZeekLTK]

Post 12 is in response to Porochaz's post 10 - why would CS talk about leetonicon in that post?

I wasn't defending him, I was attacking you. Subsequent responses have required me to justify my position. As I've said a number of times, I still think CS overreacted to having tw ovotes.

I will start at the bottom: yes, CS did overract to having two votes... that is the case against him. Or at least why I am suspicious of him. It was a huge overraction... does it not make you wonder WHY he overracted? You seem to just be saying "he freaked out and got really worried that he had 2 votes on him... so?" So?? So WHY did he freak out? Why are you not interested in figuring that out? Did he panick because he is scum and was worried that he had been found out? That is what I am trying to figure out while you are off on your own little crusade against others who have done nothing to warrant it.

And it is interesting that you say that you are attacking me because that is what I was going to point out, prior to you even making this post.

Let's look at erg0 shall we? No one else seems to be paying attention to his actions and are just accepting that he is attacking me for questioning someone who is acting suspicious (is that pro-town?).

On page 1 what did erg0 contribute? The first random vote of the game, and then a post with very little (if any) substance to kinda remind us that "hey, I'm here... even though I'm not contributing anything".

All he says is that "CS seems to be a little panicky" to address the situation that was a major talking point of the first page (and still is), and he just leaves it to that. Then he waits and, instead of following up on his own suspicions, he picks out people (me in this case) who are making valid cases and, for whatever reason, tries to divert attention on them.

Is it because he is CS' scum partner? Maybe. Or possibly another answer is that he is scum and knows that CS is town, so he is free to defend him because if somehow we do lynch CS then erg0 can be like "hey look, I was never trying to get him lynched, I'm not suspicious".

--

CS, all I have to say about my vote is that it is still early in Day 1. There is no point in putting someone, no matter how suspicious they are, at L-1 because even if you are scum, a short day that could result from that does not give the town enough information to identify your partner. If we let the day go on a bit then we can gather more information on everyone and have a better chance of nailing both scum instead of just one who slipped up early.

I was mafia in my first newbie game and we managed to lynch someone almost on page 1. We killed another town at night and then quick lynched on Day 2 to win within 3 pages total. I do not want to see that happen to me this time around, so I am in no hurry to help anyone lynch right away. However, since Ripley hasn't really done anything suspicious yet, I am not going to sit here and throw out blame without using my vote, so...

unvote, vote: erg0

[ZeekLTK]

One of his main talking points against me was that I had only requested one of my voters to reconsider their vote, and while I wouldn't expect him to re-hash every point or suspicion about me in every post, here it sounds as if my panicking was the only set-off. Over the course of the post he flip-flops back and forth on me a little. Saying I do look scummy, then maybe not, and then 'well even if he is scum we may as well leave him there'. Eventually he accuses Ergo of exactly the behavior Ripley has just mentioned.
So, in that vein, Ripley the timing of other people's defense (Ergo) of me and deflection (Zeek) away from me, would make me lean towards accusing Zeek of scummy behavior.

Well I don't know what your point of this is because I have never come out and specifically said "I am sure CS is mafia", so I don't see why flip-flopping is worth pointing out or even "scummy behavior" on my part. Is it bad that I am still considering that you could be either scum or town and exploring both possibilities instead of picking one and blindly making accusations based on that choice?

That is what lead me to the point against erg0 - considering that you could be town and examining his actions from that perspective.

[ZeekLTK]

Honestly I just think erg0 is grasping at straws at the moment to get the pressure off him, but if we assume the logic is as "crappy" as he claims it is, then why, after I initially said it (in the post that I changed my vote), did both Ripley and Porochaz basically say they were thinking the same thing? Porochaz even changed his vote as well, citing that as a main reason.

So maybe that is worth looking into (disregarding erg0 for a minute): it's one thing to have "bad logic" and post it yourself - it is another thing to agree with someone else's "bad logic" and make actions based on it. So what motives do Ripley and especially Porochaz have for agreeing with my "bad logic" (if anyone else besides erg0 and CS think it is bad too)?

[ZeekLTK]

Actually, Porochaz' vote really has me thinking, and wondering...

In his initial post he said "Major FOS: erg0".

But then 5 minutes later (literally, 5 minutes), he changed his stance from "FOS" to "vote" - and no one posted in between either, which makes it more odd.

Why? What changed, in the 5 minutes in between your posts, to make you go from "I want to express that I also think this guy is suspicious but there's not enough evidence for me to vote against him" to "I think this guy is most likely to be scum and will vote for him"??

[ZeekLTK]

Ah sorry for triple post but I went back and read it more carefully and I noticed that at the end he said he was about to vote

"Major Fos: Erg0 whilst I read over and then will probably vote right afterwards".

Sorry I overlooked that so I guess nevermind about post 84.

[ZeekLTK]

I just want to point out my user name is ZEEK not ZEET... :p

[ZeekLTK]

"Can you give quotes where Ripley and Porochaz agree with you?

In post 53 I said:

"Or possibly another answer is that he is scum and knows that CS is town, so he is free to defend him because if somehow we do lynch CS then erg0 can be like "hey look, I was never trying to get him lynched, I'm not suspicious"."

In post 61 Ripley said (talking to CS):

"Scum buddying up to a townie is the oldest trick in the book. If you're town, you can see by your own reaction here how well it has worked. Erg0 has gained your support, which will be valuable if you survive. If you don't survive he looks good for sticking his neck out to support a townie who was under pressure. I'm not saying Erg0 is scum; he could perfectly well be genuine. But you should be aware of the dangers of assuming anyone is town for this reason."

In post 70 Porochaz said (quoting my post, #53):

"I think this post sums up what I am thinking currently, he's trying to be both sides of the fence and it's not working very well. His latter posts whilst having substance don't sit right, in post 54 he is sorta defending CS and then says what both me and CS have been saying about leet. Whilst you suggested CS was a bit panicky early on (according to Zeek, Im going to go back and check this) and were unsure about him, you've defended him to quite an extent but there is nowhere in this thread showing why you changed your mind... It doesn't sit right with me at all and I'm going to go and look at the thread again to look at some of the content in your posts but I am already thinking your scum. Major Fos: Erg0 whilst I read over and then will probably vote right afterwards"

----------

Ok we shouldnt stop posting just because were waiting for a replacement... Zeek, you haven't posted anything beyond your name correction in a while so what are your thoughts on Erg0 since the last time you posted? and destructor, Im sure you would of posted this anyway but what your read on the game just now?

and CS has gone a little quiet since the pressures off...

Odd that you say this... it hasn't been that long since I've posted (late Sunday night... it's only Tuesday afternoon now)

And what have you contributed in the meantime?


Post 91: "K Thanks, thats fair enough I guess"

Post 94: "Tis ok, your going through it the right way and I hope your problems are resolved soon"

Post 97: "Sorry I keep doing that... I usually realise before I press the post button and change it, I dont really know why I do it, so Im sorry Ill try and post Zeek from now on... "

Post 103: "Yeah, hope to see you around peapod... I am however interested to hear what leetonicons replacement has to say... and what peapods replacement will now bring to the game..."

And then your most recent post which I quoted.

I guess you are posting, but you are not providing anything worthwhile to the game. Now your randomly trying to make it seem like I am lurking by calling me out for "not posting" (even though it has barely been a full day since my last content related post), while your last 5 posts have contributed absolutely nothing to the game.

And you completely ignored my post (83) which was mostly questioning your vote against erg0...

[ZeekLTK]

It seems to have been missed that peapod was actually the first person to make an overstated reference to L-2 in Post 8. In Post 14 she kind of echo's what Porochaz has already said before jokingly suggesting that CS may be scum.

Interesting that you bring up Porochaz and peapod, I was wondering if anyone else noticed this (post 70):

Right Im going to try and keep this short but knowing me its going to get quite long...

Start with the easiest:
peapod: has had few posts and the one she made latterly in the game explained her absence which, I believe , she also thinks she doesn't have much to contribute to the "over-explored" Civil talk, which is fair enough I guess. Town but not 100% until we have a few more posts.

A little bit of discussion occurred afterwards, mostly concerning the "100%" that he said, but it basically got swept under the rug. I want to know if I am the only one who found it odd that Porochaz would list peapod, who had been extremely inactive and not really contributed anything, as his person who is "most likely to be town"?

He says "start with the easiest", so that would imply that peapod is the "easiest" to identify as town. Meanwhile the play in the game would make that completely opposite, peapod had hardly done anything so she would be the hardest to put a finger on as to which side she was on.

So I'm wondering what motive Porochaz had for doing this and listing a questionable player like peapod as town, especially considering peapod's activity (or lack thereof) at the point he made the post...

[ZeekLTK]

What did I miss about post 109? You responded to me and I felt that was at least an adequate response so I had nothing more to say. Are you talking about the questions at the bottom?

Now before I posted 107 when was your last substantial post? I think 83 or is there something there that I'm missing?

Well apparently you didn't read what you had written directly above that, because you answered it for me:

In the last 15 posts you'll notice that only Erg0 has provided a substantial post due to our drop outs, I think its fair to say we can say goodbye to folk who are retiring... so counting 2 of those posts were to say goodbye, 1 of those posts was apologising for getting your name wrong, 1 was saying to Erg0 "ok I can understand where your coming from with that" (post 91) and the last one trying to get the game back on track (what I thought could be called a substantial post, correct me if Im wrong...)

So you are questioning when I last posted, and try to make it seem like it was a while ago (by saying post 83), but then you admit that NO ONE has really posted anything in the last 15 posts, so I don't see what your point is... you are just trying to bring unnecessary attention to me for some reason.

This is all after you originally singled me out for no reason by saying I hadn't posted in a while when it was a Tuesday afternoon and I had just posted on the previous Sunday night... and there were several people that hadn't posted in a longer period of time, including peapod who, for some reason, you are giving a free pass to regarding being a townie.

In fact, maybe it's worth to note in the last game I played, we had a guy who also made a list about who he thought was scum and who he thought was town. That guy ended up being mafia... so that's another reason I'm suspicious of your list.

But okay if I misinterpreted what you meant by "easiest" then fine, that's your explanation. But you progressed down the list with people and went from town to who you thought was scummy, so I think it's fair for me to determine that if you have people that you think are scum at the bottom and people you think are town at the top, that it's not unreasonable for me to assume that the higher up on the list, the most likely you think that person is town. I guess I mis-used the quote marks because you didn't say it specifically, but that is what I was implying that I thought you meant, so I used quotes when I typed it.

I was just pointing out that, after destructor mentions the two of you went after CS early that there was also another connection in post 70 and felt it was significant enough to bring up again. I personally hadn't noticed what destructor noticed during the early part of the game, so when I read post 70 I was suspicious of it, but I didn't really have any reason to bring it up yet, so I just let it be for the time.

[ZeekLTK]

It seems like ever since I questions why you followed my "crappy logic" (to quote erg0) to change your vote and put it on erg0 you've been attacking me.

Like I said, it is one thing to come up with "bad logic" and not be able to see it is bad logic yourself, but it is completely different to try to "agree" with someone else's "bad logic" and use that as a reason to do something. So I am still wondering:

-What is your motive for following my vote and putting yours on erg0 as well?

-What is your motive for giving peapod a free pass at this point in time? I mean, you could have taken a stance that "there isn't enough content to make a decision one way or the other" but instead you decided that peapod is probably town...

I think both of those still need to be looked at.

[ZeekLTK]

Haven't heard from Zeek in a while.

Yeah, I had two exams and a project due last week so I didn't really come on here. Unlike Garnasha, I didn't feel the need to distract the game by continually pointing this out.

[*]Re: Zeek's OMGUS, "You're attacking me and I don't deserve it"

is

feeble reasoning. That's the very definition of OMGUS.

If nothing else, at least I'm fairly sure that your suspicion is genuine now. I would ask you to consider one other thing: assuming I'm not a bad player (which I'm not), what do you think my motivation would have been for doing what I did?

I think it's reasonable to assume that I'd be aware that I'd be bringing suspicion on myself by going against the flow of the game in the way that I did.

Well I guess we will just disagree on the vote because you call it "OMGUS" and I say it's not. I would have voted for you, based on my reasoning, regardless of who you had voted for (me or anyone else).

My reasoning was that CS had a few suspicious posts and at the time you were completely ignoring them and telling people to move along and stop discussing them. To me it is anti-town to try to derail discussion about another player's suspicious behavior, so basically I voted for you for acting anti-town.

Also, the bolded part: Complete WIFOM. Scum still knowingly do things that bring suspicion onto them and then hope that no one notices what it is they really did. If people get a free pass for doing things that "they know are suspicious" we'll never catch scum in this game.

I've read Zeek as reactionary, aggressive AND defensive, though this may be his playstyle seeing as he's been consistent about it! I'm not a fan of playstyles being used as excuses for scummy behaviour

This is a bit odd, at the end you just kinda throw out there that I "have scummy behavior", even though the majority of your post about me says the complete opposite. It's like you want to make sure everyone has a light of suspicion on them after your post, even if there is nothing you could find to pinpoint exactly.

Speaking of destructor's post; I see on his post he points out Porochaz responding to "bad logic". I actually missed this part of the post, so I went back and read it, so I will respond to it now:

So wait, your saying that your logic is bad logic... but its in inverted comma's so it must mean you think its good logic, therefore I can think its good logic as well... no wait, your saying that although you cant see it as bad logic, everyone else should be able to and not follow your route. That just confuses me a bit, even more so the fact that I gave a bit of an explanation myself why I was voting for him then in post 87,(which you have ignored) I answered Erg0's answer to my vote, which by the way, you ignored even though he asked both of us and you posted before me.(about post 54...)

I felt my logic was fine, as I pointed about right above this quote. However, BOTH erg0 and CS said that they thought it was poor logic. So, I noticed that you had also voted for erg0 and your vote was pretty much based on my logic, which at least 2 other players considered bad...

So I took a step back for a second and said "hmmm, what if I'm wrong and erg0 isn't mafia?... is Porochaz maybe scum and he is just looking for a reason to start a bandwagon? And he decided to latch onto mine in this case? And maybe if my logic is as bad as those two claim, then maybe Porochaz is using a scum tactic of following a townie's vote/reasoning to get a bandwagon started."

So that's why I was asking about that, and brought it up a few times.

[ZeekLTK]

FOS: Destructor
Leet's behavior was exceptionally scummy, and

no one has yet to explain why in the world he would feel the need to let us know that he and Poro actually unvoted simultaneously.

Destructor hasn't done much to convince me he's town. But his posts are sensible and reasoned.

You keep bringing this up, but do you realize leet is not in the game anymore? This is something we will never find out because he is not here to explain it. Only he knows why he felt the need to post that, no one else does. So it's kinda odd that you continually bring up this question when it's obvious that there is no way to possibly answer it.

[ZeekLTK]

This is getting hard to follow

Zeek do you still find Erg0 scummy?

I haven't really changed my mind on Erg0.

I am kinda confused about his response to my "attack" on Porochaz (where I wondered if Porochaz was just trying to start a bandwagon on Erg0 using my "bad" reasoning):

This is actually an interesting point, as voting a player based on someone else's bad case is apparently a very reliable scumtell (though one I haven't really tested myself).

I can't tell if he is being sarcastic or not (because of the word "apparently") and if not, I can't understand why he said it because there has been nothing to prove that it is a reliable scumtell.

The whole point was, as I said, two people said they didn't like my logic (CS and Erg0 for what it's worth), however one person (Porochaz) agreed with it and even voted based on it, so I took a step back and said "hmmm... if my logic is bad, why is Poro voting for it? What does he have to gain?"

Answer: if he is town - nothing; if he is mafia - he could be able to start a bandwagon and get Erg0 lynched (and this would assume Erg0 is town if Porochaz is mafia because obviously he wouldn't try to get a bandwagon against his only teammate).

However, as I said, I don't feel it is bad logic, so that doesn't give me any reason to assume Erg0 is town, hence why I still have my vote on him.

But no one else really responded or had a thought either way about it; haven't heard Ripley, CS, destructor, or Garn comment on it... heck, other than CS, the others haven't even weighed in on whether or not it was good/bad logic in the first place.

I also didn't like his response about "WIFOM"...

Everything is WIFOM. There are degrees of WIFOM though, and that's what you need to think about here. I would not normally ever raise a point like this regarding my own actions, but it was pretty clear that nobody was thinking about it.

Before this he had basically tried to make it sound like he shouldn't have to take heat for doing something suspicious because "why would he do something blatantly suspicious if he was mafia? that would be too obvious"... I called him out and said that is no excuse at all. Why would you do something blatantly suspicious if you were town? His response (quoted above) again completely ignores what I said and again just says what he originally said.

To me this (the quoted part above) reads: "I pointed it out because everyone thought what I had done was suspicious and started to think I was mafia, and no one bothered to think that is too obvious of a mafia move to make, so that should mean I'm not mafia" (which makes no sense to me - if you do something that a mafia would do, then why shouldn't we think you are mafia? - so I called him out on it when I said "complete WIFOM").


However, with the deadline approaching, I am thinking maybe I should change my vote to Garnasha. With all things considered, I would be more satisfied with a Garnasha lynch than anyone else. Even though, as I said, I find erg0 scummy, and am really wondering about CS again (especially due to his recent crusade against Ripley for no apparent reason)... I think the safest bet is Garnasha.

Why? Because, if Erg0 and/or CS are town, it will be a big loss to lose them. If Garnasha is town... meh, what's the harm? The way I see it, we have a 33% (2/6) chance of lynching scum... which means we have a 67% (4/6) chance of lynching town. If we are going to screw up, I'd rather screw up and lynch someone who's not helping us than someone who might be able to. Combine this with the fact that I think Garnasha may be scum anyways - has he contributed anything to the town or tried to help us find scum so far? I don't think so - so it's probably a good bet to lynch him if it comes down to the deadline and we are still unsure about everyone else.


Speaking of CS, Ripley brought up an interesting point.

Anyway, after a few more pages of trying to get me lynched he just changed his mind and went after someone else. The point here is that we were both town; he was just plain wrong, though utterly convinced he was right.

This is what I did last game (Mini Game)... I was convinced this guy named Off The Mark was scum and I went after him for a couple pages. Eventually it turned out it was up to me and him to win the game for the town. I'm actually trying to play more balanced and look at both sides (trying to consider everyone as scum and town - and not blindly go after anyone like OTM) in this game because of that.

[ZeekLTK]

I think we've come full circle again.

We started the game off and it was Civil Scum against Porochaz (the whole "take your vote off me" thing)... and here we are again.

About midway through this game I began to suspect that maybe Porochaz and peapod were working together (due to the fact that Porochaz defended peapod's inactivity at certain points, and then listed peapod as "town" in his list he made, even though there was absolutely no reason to do so).

Now we have Garnasha instead of peapod (who is playing exactly like peapod, which I find even stranger)... and now Porochaz is again somewhat defending Garnasha; CS voted for Garn and Poro is attacking him for the "sudden change of heart".

Erg0 and CS have seemed to have been on the same page the entire game as well. They both said my logic was "bad" when I voted for erg0 and Erg0 was always defending CS early on for his asking Poro to remove the vote (he kept saying we're making too big of a deal about it and to move on). I think it is pretty scummy that CS is clamoring for Garn to be lynched "no matter what his allegiance is", is this maybe a case of what I talked about earlier with a scum trying to use a townie logic and push for a bandwagon?

I mean, I never said we should lynch him if we think he's town. As I said, I've been suspicious of him since Poro defended peapod and then listed him as a townie for no reason. So, to me, a Garnasha lynch is a good chance of catching scum, but it also has the added bonus that if somehow he is not scum, it has minimal impact on hurting the town (compared to if we lynch someone else who ends up as town).

Since there is only one pair of scum, obviously one of these two "pairs" is just a coincidence, but I find it hard to believe that both are, so IMO, I think I've narrowed it down to the scum being either Porochaz and Garnasha... or Erg0 and Civil Scum.

So, who do we lynch today to figure out which pairing it is?

[ZeekLTK]

I think I've narrowed it down to the scum being either Porochaz and Garnasha... or Erg0 and Civil Scum.

So, who do we lynch today to figure out which pairing it is?

I just can't agree with the premise that these are the only two scum pairings that should be taken into consideration. I think it's a real mistake to be eliminating people on these kinds of grounds on Day 1. Like when CS said he couldn't consider Poro as scum because he couldn't see him as scum with leet, who he was

sure

was scum at that stage. As a general principle I think this kind of logic is a dangerous way to proceed.

Well I see your point, but after reviewing all the action on day 1, those two pairings stick out the most. Maybe it is either you and/or destructor, but at this point I think that is unlikely.

And out of those four, it's highly unlikely that if one of them is scum, the person I group them with isn't. For example I just can't see CS being scum if Garnasha turns out to be scum. The difference between this and your example that you called "dangerous" is that I never said I was "sure" one of them was scum, so I haven't eliminated anyone from the possibility of being scum.

My thinking was more of "If X is scum, then Y probably is too, but Z most likely isn't."

I never assigned anyone to any particular variable. And that is what I am struggling with.

But wouldn't you agree, given all of the interactions, that the people I've tagged as "working together" would be likely scum pairs if one of them turned out to be mafia?

I mean, besides everything I already pointed out, all you need to do is just look at the votes; CS & Erg0 have voted for Garnasha while Porochaz & Garnasha have voted for CS...

but which is the group of scum that is trying to advance the bandwagon on a townie, and which is the group of townies that has correctly identified scum? That's what I am having trouble figuring out.

[ZeekLTK]

Alright, we are about 48 hours from the deadline. But I've heard enough out of Garnasha from that last post...

Especially:

I will still try and reread the thread, but unless I see something really extraordinary I won't change my opinion.

Now, I have been neglecting my other games because I spent all my MS time on this game. Now the "crisis" is over I'm going to catch up there. I don't think my attention here is needed till day 2 (and even then only if CS or Erg0 turns out to be town). I'll make sure I'll have caught up at daybreak.

You'll try to read the thread... but in the next sentence you tell us your attention isn't "needed" here until day 2 [so that means we probably won't hear from you until day 2]?

To me, your whole "contribution" to this last page feels like it was done in parts:

Part A: You are the prime suspect, so you come back and try to make it look like you are going to be helpful so that you don't get lynched.

Part B: Someone else makes a case against another player (destructor vs Erg0 in this case), so you latch onto this case and vocally support it in hopes that it gets the attention off you.

Part C: A couple people post that they agree with it, you think the momentum has shifted to Erg0, so now you announce that you are going to bail on us again and go back into hiding while we fight with each other again.


I'm now convinced that you are scum. And no, like you claimed earlier, we are not holding the fact that you are a replacement against you. We didn't like how peapod played (all excuses and no content - did not help the town at all), and you came in and have played the EXACT same way... that is what we are holding against you.

You aren't helping the town, you are just running us in circles and doing everything you can to prevent us from hunting/catching scum. I'm now absolutely convinced that you are scum. And, even in the tiny, minuscule chance that you are not mafia, Day 2 will still be much better for the town without you.

unvote; Vote: Garnasha

[ZeekLTK]

I'd say a good set-up on me would have been NK'ing you. Personally I would have killed Zeek because no one has suspected him thus far.

I was pretty much expecting to be killed as well. But there are a couple reasons I can think that the scum would have avoided me:

a) I hammered Garn, who ended up being a townie, so they might have assumed people would go after me because of it. Although, as you said, the way Garn was playing... I think I was completely justified in hammering him.

b) Maybe they assumed I would be protected by a doctor (and maybe I was?)

So I don't think we can really draw any conclusions from the fact that I wasn't killed because no matter who the scum were, they most likely would have considered both scenarios and decided it was less risky to go after someone else (obviously Ripley here).

However, the fact that Porochaz did not die DOES NOT mean you aren't scum. You say it would have been a good set up against you if he had died... but since he didn't die, it obviously was not a "set up", which could be because you are scum so naturally you wouldn't want to "set up" yourself.


To Poro, obviously I'm still suspicious of the two, but I'm not going to completely ignore you and destructor. I'm going to read Day 1 again and see what changes now that I know both Ripley and Garn were townies before doing anything else though.

[ZeekLTK]

I'm not sure what to make of all this but I really don't like Erg0's posts so far this day.

First post is valid, but it maybe makes you think he's trying too hard to come off as town "hey, we don't want a speed lynch, take your vote off".

And then he says:

Also, a quick IC tip:

In a 5 player LyLo situation, once the first vote is placed every player who posts afterwards without voting is almost certainly either:

a. Town
b. Scum with the voter
c. Scum with the person the vote is on

This is one of the few principles that I have been able to apply with pretty much 100% accuracy. The reason is that if the voter and the votee are both townies then the scum can just add their two votes to the wagon and win the game by lynching the townie. Unfortunately it's not that much use to

me

in this game, since I was the only one to post between Poro's vote and unvote, but this sort of thinking will help you to narrow down possible scum pairs.

What is the point of this? And what other options are there that could happen in OTHER situations? It would seem a, b, or c applies to ANY point in the game (you are either town or you are scum with someone...)

Let's look at it this way: *IF* CS and Poro are somehow both town, it seems to me the whole point of this post was that Erg0 is trying to persuade each of them into thinking he is town.

Just look at it from the eyes of each person he's including in his list: If Poro is town, he is the voter, so he will think "well, Erg0 is not my scum partner, so he is either town or he is with CS"... and if CS, as the "votee", is town he will think "Erg0 is not with me, so he's either town or with Poro". Therefore, Erg0 gets the two to continue thinking the other is probably scum and hopefully try to appear as townie himself.

But the thing to me is, since like I said above, a, b, or c applies to ANY point in the game. You are either town or you're scum with someone... it's not that big of an observation. I guess the only other possibility would be that d) he posted but is not any of the above, so that means he is scum with neither the voter nor the "votee"... so is that what you are trying to say? It's you and destructor? But since you left off that possibility you are hoping everyone forgets about that possibility?

However, I'm not so certain that Poro or CS are town, although I am leaning towards Poro being town, especially now that we know Garnasha was.

The way CS has gone after Erg0 a bit here makes me wonder if they talked at night and decided they'd try to distance from each other by going after each other early on during Day 2. Then if we do end up lynching one of them, the other will be like "ah see, I was against him the whole time", making it tough for us on Day 3.

I mean this is somewhat of a reversal from the end of Day 1 where CS basically tried to ignore destructor's case:

Destructor is making an excellent case. I need to read through it a couple more times. I still think garn is a safe bet, but Ergo is certainly back on the radar.

Just mention that he's back on your radar, but keep pushing for townie garn to be lynched. And then when the issue doesn't go away:

There are a couple points of destructors in his case on Ergo that aren't quite as solid as they appear. The place where he accuses Ergo of fabricating evidence when he said that Zeek had voted for me. There was an explanation for this earlier, I'm not sure if it suffices.

There were a couple other things but I don't have the time right now.

Above he said it's an "excellent case" but now all of a sudden (just a few posts later) he says the case isn't solid, and claims there are other reasons than the weak one he gives, but never gives them ("I don't have time"...)

But now all of a sudden it's a good case again and it's time to go after Erg0. But why now? And what happened to all these "other things" that were wrong with the case that suddenly aren't any more?

And then this... from a couple posts ago:

Zeek will go on to die, and then we can sort it out. Seems stupid, but it is logical.

What is this suppose to mean?!?! Are you trying to hint that you are going to kill me during Night 2?

[ZeekLTK]

K will type in

bold

as its probably easier for everyone.

However, I'm not so certain that Poro or CS are town, although I am leaning towards Poro being town, especially now that we know Garnasha was.

Could you expand on this? I find Porochaz's generous labeling of Peapod and his "well I'm not gonna lynch Garn, you guys go ahead if you'd like" more damning now that Garn has turned up town. In fact, I believe Poro's entire treatment of the Garnasha dilemma suspicious.

why?

To CS: Because initially I felt that Poro and Garn might be a scum pairing, but since Garn wasn't, that kinda ruined any case I might have had against him.

But (and to answer Poro's "why?") now that I think about it, that doesn't necessarily clear him. In fact I do see what you are saying: that him being mafia and knowing that Garn was town would lead to his play where he decided he was not going to lynch garn... so that on Day 2 he could say "see I wasn't in on the lynch"... however he's posted a lot on Day 2 here and he never once tried to bring up how he wasn't involved in the lynch, so that also leaves me wondering if you are grasping at straws to try to incriminate him for not killing a townie.

But there really was no reason (for anyone) to defend Garn, especially the way he was playing, so hmmmm... I will have to think about it a bit.

[ZeekLTK]

I'm going to try to pop my head in inbetween boxing rounds here... this is what I've gotten out of the last several posts between you two:

I think it's pretty scummy by Poro to try to attack CS because he went back and read the thread again. That's what you are suppose to do when a new day begins. You find out someone's alliance (in this case Ripley and Garn) and then you go back and see how that changes your views of their interaction with everyone.

No one found anything scummy during Day 1 because every single thing done could be viewed as EITHER person being mafia. But we now know that two people were townies. There is no dispute over that. So now everyone can go back and read the thread and they don't have to consider "is Garn saying this because he's mafia?", "is Ripley?"

This needs to be done by CS especially, as he was the main (and maybe only?) person who really considered Ripley as possible mafia. So I don't see why you have such a huge problem with him going back and doing that, unless it's because you think he'll find some real good evidence to prove that you are scum?

Erg0 is making me nervous too. He has been extremely quiet so far... he's just sitting back and letting you two go at it, but occassionally popping his head in to let us (or at least his scum partner?) know he's still here. It seems to me all he is doing is trying to APPEAR helpful by posting about "IC tips" and asking for a prod. There's this huge battle going on between Poro and CS that I've commented on a few times already (including this post), but if you look at Erg0's posts it's almost like he's just trying to ignore it completely. His posts have all been responses (or clarifications) about posts that happened on Day 1. We're almost 3 pages into Day 2 and he hasn't said a word on the "current events" going on.

destructor doesn't worry me as much because he appears to be legitimately MIA, so if somehow he is mafia he's not going to be around for a quick lynch. But if Erg0 is mafia, he's right here, hiding in the background... that's not good!

[ZeekLTK]

Went down to Purdue for the MSU game (bowl eligible baby!) so that's why I haven't posted all weekend.

First thing I want to note is my displeasure at Zeek's hammer on Garn. Especially in light of the fact that I'd been inactive and had said I had more to contribute. Also, with 48 hours before deadline, I didn't see the rush. While discussion was still going, hammering like that was the most questionable and anti-town thing Zeek's done this game. Granted, he did provide some reasoning, but it still earned him some seriously anti-town points from me and I'll be going over his posts with a fine-tooth comb.

48 hours sounds like a decent amount of time, but it's not really for a game like this. It didn't look like either you or Poro were going to vote for him (you were going after Erg0 and Poro had been defending Garn the whole time), and since I'm usually busy on the weekends I felt that if I didn't cast the vote then, I might not have a chance to again and then we'd get screwed with a no lynch, which as Erg0 already pointed out is a very bad thing for the town.

Oh, I had a question. Why was Ripley saying that a lynch was going to be better than No Lynch in Day 1? If we didn't lynch yesterday, even with a night kill, we wouldn't be at lylo now, would we?

Yes, we would (6 players left after night, 1 mislynch + 1 nightkill = 2 scum and 2 town remaining). A no lynch is almost the worst thing you can do on day 1 of a C9 (apart from lynching a power role).

Which is correct, but it's contradicting of his own statements as he claims he is "suspicious" of me for casting the hammer in the post RIGHT BEFORE that.

Post 295 (the hammer post) doesn't really justify the vote in my opinion. In post 230 he said that he found CS and me scummy, but would accept lynching Garn. By the time 295 rolls around there's a definite movement in my direction by destructor and, to a lesser extent, Ripley, but he ignores it and opts to hammer Garn instead.

As you just explained, a no lynch is awful for the town, I did what I could to help us avoid a no-lynch and also take out a player who was likely to be scum AND was not helping the town. You can claim there was a "movement" but there really wasn't. Was CS going to vote for you? I felt he was your possible scum partner, so no. Was Poro going to vote for you? No, he was stuck on CS (and might actually be your partner anyways). Ripley had not changed his vote the entire game... it was very unlikely that, within 2 days enough people were going to swing in a completely different direction. Especially during the weekend. What would have happened would probably have been some people would have changes their minds to vote for you, some would have stuck with Garn, and Poro probably would have stayed on CS and then we might not have lynched at all.

And, I don't even understand this... so you are upset that I cast the final vote to lynch a player who had not been helping us at all and was very likely to be scum - instead of trying to kill you instead? If you are a townie, that makes absolutely zero sense. If you are mafia I can kinda understand the frustration: if we had played around with destructor's case on you, maybe the town would have been split never made up our mind, and there might not have been a lynch... and then you could go after Garn on Day 2 to get your quick lynch and win.

But trying to attack me for hammering Garn... instead of you... If I was mafia why would I do that then? Wouldn't having Garn around hurt the town more, since no one would know his alliance and he'd still be posting excuses about "oh I gotta go eat now"? I can't figure out, as a townie, why you would be upset about that? Especially considering you were the only other option really. I mean, I could understand if it was destructor coming after me and saying "I really thought Erg0 was mafia, and instead you lynched Garn who wasn't, wtf"... okay I can see him being upset about that (if that's how he felt)... but it was YOU who was the other option.

You're upset that I didn't wait to lynch you? WHY? Are you saying we should have lynched you?

[ZeekLTK]

The self-contradiction that I'm referring to from Zeek is his argument for Porochaz being scummy for following Zeek's own "crap logic" case on me. I kind of see what he was doing, but it seriously weakens his position on both of us.

We already went over this several times. Interesting contradiction from you again... Earlier you said it was a great scum-tell... but now you just "kinda see" what was going on?

[ZeekLTK]

At this point I'm almost certain Erg0 is mafia, but the trouble is... who is his partner?

I initially pegged Erg0 as mafia early in the game and changed my vote to him.

I also initially pegged CS as his partner, so I'm wondering if I was right from the start.

CS has made a case for Erg0/Poro, but I'm not really seeing any connection between the two.

However, here on Day 2 it's odd that Erg0 has came in and attacked me, Poro, and CS with long posts... but just puts in a paragraph about destructor saying "he is a solid townie".

I am wondering if that post destructor made near the end of Day 1 was to do what I just accused Erg0 of in my first post on this page: to try to divide the town so that we couldn't agree on a lynch. Surely destructor knew that with time running out until the deadline, there was no way he was going to sway enough people to vote for Erg0, so it was a good attempt to make it look like the two were against each other, and maybe save Garn so they could lynch him today...

[ZeekLTK]

My stance has changed slightly,

whilst my vote is on you firmly

, if we were heading towards a deadline then I would consider a destructor lynch. Erg0's replys don't seem scummy, unless hes using his IC status as a front for being scum (which Ive read in other games, not from him) now that would just be shite and I hope he isn't doing that, I dont think hes doing that.

???

Your vote isn't on anyone right now...

[ZeekLTK]

Destructor and Zeek. Please consider my point. Reasonable WIFOM.

I've called Erg0 out for WIFOM several times already, I see your point... throughout this day I've been pretty sure it's Erg0 and nothing has happened to change my mind.

Vote: Erg0

[ZeekLTK]

[ZeekLTK]

Good game guys, it was fun.

Good job destructor.

[ZeekLTK]

Thanks but I don't think we (or I at least) handled day 1 very well. I mean, obviously I escaped suspicion, but if it hadn't been for a deadline we would most likely STILL be on Day 1 because I didn't know how to get anyone lynched. I was just kinda sitting back and making a point here or there but was basically hoping that eventually a townie would slip up and look really suspicious and the rest would gang up on them. Even the way Garnasha played, I don't think he would have been lynched if there wasn't a deadline.

So what could I have done to get through Day 1 faster but also produced the same result (virtually no one was suspicious of me entering Day 2)??