Newbie 480: Game Over!

[Erg0]

Careful with that vote, Poro - it only takes one townie-on-townie vote for the mafia to be able to pile on and win the game with a speedlynch. You need to be very sure that the person you're voting for is scum (or you're scum yourself, in which case never mind).

I'm going to reread before doing anything. Please be cautious in your actions, if we lynch a townie today then we lose.

[Porochaz]

I said I wasn't going to jump in on this one, my opinion hasnt changed at all but what you say is true and it wouldnt be fair to lynch CS without him talking so

unvote

, this unvote is almost certainly temporary though and it will go back on as soon as all the other 4 players post reactions on this game.

[Civil Scum]

Yeah, good call Ergo. Poro, that vote and unvote is bull crap.
Wow Poro. Just wow.

K, thats not good...

Pointless.

vote: Civil Scum for the same reasons as before. Plus for a while a few pages back Ripley set up somewhat of a case against you. Killing me would have been to obvious that you were scum, Ripley was the logical second choice.

Don't twist the words (or invent them) of a dead man. Ripely wasn't making a case for me in the last few pages. He was suggesting that I was a deluded townie (a la Turbovolver) and then again was saying that I was noticeably more agitated when once again being at L-2.

I'd say a good set-up on me would have been NK'ing you. Personally I would have
killed Zeek because no one has suspected him thus far.

Although Ripley was also a logical choice for just about any scum. Ripley dying here at night no more implicates me than any other player. Your case is shitlogic.

If Ripley was setting up to go after anyone, it was Ergo.

The thing Im most interested in is Zeeks point of view. He said Me/Garn or Civil/Erg0, so has anything changed? Im also interested in destructors non Erg0's views and how his opinion now differs.

Interested in, as in You/Garn out the window cause Garn is town. Or interested in agreeing that Ergo and I are a likely pair.

I hope it isn't the latter. Cause out-right voting for me and then retracting your vote after MY SCUM BUDDY appeals to you for caution makes NO SENSE WHATSOEVER.
I really don't believe u are interested in catching scum at this point (ie-by hearing everyone else's opinions). You're just interested in attacking CS (who I am sure is town).

I said I wasn't going to jump in on this one

errrr, short term memory lapse.

my opinion hasnt changed at all but what you say is true and it wouldnt be fair to lynch CS without him talking so unvote, this unvote is almost certainly temporary though and it will go back on as soon as all the other 4 players post reactions on this game.

You would like to hear everyone's thoughts, and then (as your unvote is almost certainly temporary) you will then put your vote back on me. This is garbage.

May I remind the court that the cruxt of Poro's vote for me D-1 was that I had accepted Ripley's TOWN-assessment of my obssesive (and obnoxious) behavior too readily. He said I accepted it too willing. Reductive argument? A vote based on something I could be doing. Paper-thin.

My agitation this time around was due in large part to Garn. I was very seriously pissed. I was with Zeek's last post on that one. Garn looked increasingly more scummy. I am glad he's gone, but oh well.

I also went on a crusade against Ripley for a similar reason. He OMGUS me in a way which seemed to say "I am an IC. There is nothing I do that is scummy. If u are getting this impression it is because some kid named RIpley bullied u as a child"
I went too far overboard and have explained why I became convinced Ripley was town several times.

Ripley made an excellent point about Ergo's post which mentioned two very different things. He took a step back from agreeing with me because of one comment I made several posts later which was also unrelated to the case I was "building" on Ripley.

->Ergo and Porochaz both seemed to think that either Ripley or I was scum for pretty uncertain reasons.

->Why was Ergo ready to flip a coin on me and Ripley?
->Why did Poro want Ripley to prove his case by voting for me?
They both seemed that the whole debaucle was scummy on one side, but for no clear reasons.

ALSO PORO. Thinking about pairing, Am I paired with Ergo in your eyes? Then why would have listened to him about unvoting me? You're not worried about being wrong, u said it jsut wasn't fair to vote before we've heard from everyone.

[Civil Scum]

vote: Civil Scum for the same reasons as before

So much has happened just now. Garn turns up town (holy smokes). Ripley dies as the COP. Ergo was coming under serious suspicion jsut before nigt-fall. Destructor took to accusing him on very solid grounds.
Zeek dropped the hammer on a townie (and Ergo put him at L-1) I don't think anyone can really be blamed for that.

And Poro is still after me for the same reasons. And is on record previously telling me that I should have known his vote was always going to go on me or Ergo.

I don't think he has seriously considered anyone besides me.

Your tunnel-vision is extremely dangerous. And faintly scummy. You ask for other people's input and do nothing with it. Yet you're always asking for other people's opinions, always asking good questions about other topics, yet none of it ever seems to influence your play.

I'm interested in what you-PORO have to say about the case destructor was building on Ergo. Becuase you seem to have disregarded it completely.

Can't wait to hear form Zeek and Destructor.
I think Ergo has some explaining to do.

[ZeekLTK]

I'd say a good set-up on me would have been NK'ing you. Personally I would have killed Zeek because no one has suspected him thus far.

I was pretty much expecting to be killed as well. But there are a couple reasons I can think that the scum would have avoided me:

a) I hammered Garn, who ended up being a townie, so they might have assumed people would go after me because of it. Although, as you said, the way Garn was playing... I think I was completely justified in hammering him.

b) Maybe they assumed I would be protected by a doctor (and maybe I was?)

So I don't think we can really draw any conclusions from the fact that I wasn't killed because no matter who the scum were, they most likely would have considered both scenarios and decided it was less risky to go after someone else (obviously Ripley here).

However, the fact that Porochaz did not die DOES NOT mean you aren't scum. You say it would have been a good set up against you if he had died... but since he didn't die, it obviously was not a "set up", which could be because you are scum so naturally you wouldn't want to "set up" yourself.


To Poro, obviously I'm still suspicious of the two, but I'm not going to completely ignore you and destructor. I'm going to read Day 1 again and see what changes now that I know both Ripley and Garn were townies before doing anything else though.

[Porochaz]

Yeah, good call Ergo. Poro, that vote and unvote is bull crap.

Well to be honest I knew I was going to get that from you...

vote: Civil Scum for the same reasons as before. Plus for a while a few pages back Ripley set up somewhat of a case against you. Killing me would have been to obvious that you were scum, Ripley was the logical second choice.

Don't twist the words (or invent them) of a dead man. Ripely wasn't making a case for me in the last few pages. He was suggesting that I was a deluded townie (a la Turbovolver) and then again was saying that I was noticeably more agitated when once again being at L-2.

Try 208. Yes whilst he thought you could be deluded townie, he didnt say you weren't scum. One of the reasons he didnt vote for you is because he believed you would of said he cracked under the prssure (same page as post 208). In post 226 he then mentions Turbovolver and that he was

uncertain

of you. Thats not to say he wasnt making a case against you, its just he wasnt sure.

I'd say a good set-up on me would have been NK'ing you. Personally I would have
killed Zeek because no one has suspected him thus far.

What Zeek said to this.

Although Ripley was also a logical choice for just about any scum. Ripley dying here at night no more implicates me than any other player. Your case is shitlogic.

If Ripley was setting up to go after anyone, it was Ergo.

Where? Ive been through the last few pages and an find that nowhere. He did briefly cast an eye over him but not much...

The thing Im most interested in is Zeeks point of view. He said Me/Garn or Civil/Erg0, so has anything changed? Im also interested in destructors non Erg0's views and how his opinion now differs.

Interested in, as in You/Garn out the window cause Garn is town. Or interested in agreeing that Ergo and I are a likely pair.

I hope it isn't the latter. Cause out-right voting for me and then retracting your vote after MY SCUM BUDDY appeals to you for caution makes NO SENSE WHATSOEVER.
I really don't believe u are interested in catching scum at this point (ie-by hearing everyone else's opinions). You're just interested in attacking CS (who I am sure is town).

He suggested pairs, I wanted to see where this situation left him in terms of thinking as who he thought was my scum buddy was townie.

I never said Erg0 was your scum buddy. However what he was saying in that post seemed to me to be logical and more from an IC stance than anything else. What he said was true and if there was a slim chance you arent scum then its probably a good idea not to vote you until everyone has had there say.

my opinion hasnt changed at all but what you say is true and it wouldnt be fair to lynch CS without him talking so unvote, this unvote is almost certainly temporary though and it will go back on as soon as all the other 4 players post reactions on this game.

You would like to hear everyone's thoughts, and then (as your unvote is almost certainly temporary) you will then put your vote back on me. This is garbage.

Watch. I can guarantee this is what Ill do. The only reason I took the vote off was as a safety precaution not because I suddenly dont find you scummy.

May I remind the court that the cruxt of Poro's vote for me D-1 was that I had accepted Ripley's TOWN-assessment of my obssesive (and obnoxious) behavior too readily. He said I accepted it too willing. Reductive argument? A vote based on something I could be doing. Paper-thin.

It wasnt only that. Try your constant over reacting, try your relationship with Erg0, try the fact you were so intent on getting on Ripleys case, theres the reasons you suggest... a lot of reasons I voted for you.

My agitation this time around was due in large part to Garn. I was very seriously pissed. I was with Zeek's last post on that one. Garn looked increasingly more scummy. I am glad he's gone, but oh well.

I also went on a crusade against Ripley for a similar reason. He OMGUS me in a way which seemed to say "I am an IC. There is nothing I do that is scummy. If u are getting this impression it is because some kid named RIpley bullied u as a child"
I went too far overboard and have explained why I became convinced Ripley was town several times.

I don't thnk that was the impression at all. Thats a load of crap. His tone or the way he wrote things didnt even sound anything like that.

->Ergo and Porochaz both seemed to think that either Ripley or I was scum for pretty uncertain reasons.

I never found Ripley to be scum

->Why did Poro want Ripley to prove his case by voting for me?
They both seemed that the whole debaucle was scummy on one side, but for no clear reasons.

Because I was trying to prove a point that if he was going to make such a large post condeming you then why wasnt he voting for you. You suggested he was trying to use me, I was making sure he wasnt. Btw, youve asked me this before and I answered it before.

ALSO PORO. Thinking about pairing, Am I paired with Ergo in your eyes? Then why would have listened to him about unvoting me? You're not worried about being wrong, u said it jsut wasn't fair to vote before we've heard from everyone.

Quickly as I have a lecture just now. Ive answered this mainly above. In short, sounded pretty sound advice, the unvotes only temporary till everyones had there say, you may or may not be paired with Erg0 its one of the possibilities.

Other post and Zeeks post coming later.

[Porochaz]

vote: Civil Scum for the same reasons as before

So much has happened just now. Garn turns up town (holy smokes). Ripley dies as the COP. Ergo was coming under serious suspicion jsut before nigt-fall. Destructor took to accusing him on very solid grounds.
Zeek dropped the hammer on a townie (and Ergo put him at L-1) I don't think anyone can really be blamed for that.

Ok so does that mean I have to automatically drop my case on you... destructors post seems a good reason to look at Erg0 more closely but not enough to change my convictions.

And Poro is still after me for the same reasons. And is on record previously telling me that I should have known his vote was always going to go on me or Ergo.

I don't think he has seriously considered anyone besides me.

Well in my eyes you seem totally scummy, Erg0 seems slightly scummy, leet seemed slightly scummy/destructor Im not sure..., Zeek, nothing to scummy from him, I am paying close attention to the others. But for me to drop my case against you when it seems obvious to me you are scum would be stupid.

Your tunnel-vision is extremely dangerous. And faintly scummy. You ask for other people's input and do nothing with it. Yet you're always asking for other people's opinions, always asking good questions about other topics, yet none of it ever seems to influence your play.

I do take it into consideration, it doesnt always effect my play, especially when you stick out as much as you do. Everyones opinions like destructors on Erg0 may effect my game eventually. But not before my own opinion I mean after all, I wouldnt want someone to blame me for voting totally on someone elses case...

I'm interested in what you-PORO have to say about the case destructor was building on Ergo. Becuase you seem to have disregarded it completely.

Its interesting in so far as its a pretty good case against Erg0, its not the sort of topic I can get into easily in mafia so whilst not ignoring it Im not replying to it until I feel I have to. Anyway its an interesting post and until Erg0 posts a response to it, I cant say much more about it. I assume thats what CS is doing considering his response to it was only 1 line saying Erg0 was back on his radar.


Civil Scum wrote:
I'd say a good set-up on me would have been NK'ing you. Personally I would have killed Zeek because no one has suspected him thus far.

However, the fact that Porochaz did not die DOES NOT mean you aren't scum. You say it would have been a good set up against you if he had died... but since he didn't die, it obviously was not a "set up", which could be because you are scum so naturally you wouldn't want to "set up" yourself.
[/quote[
QFT

[Civil Scum]

I just thought it was weird that Ripley was blatantly fixing to go after Ergo with Destructor and yet this didn't seem to cross your mind after he died.

I never found Ripley to be scum

Unless I turned up town, in which case you would be uncertain. Ergo is on record reasoning along these lines for no clear reasons.

Ripley changed his song from "general feeling=trash, some kid bullied you, and u are possibly scum"
to "you're interpereting everything I've done with the assumption of guilt"
He changed the point back, I voted. I read some of the posts in the game he linked and decided the things I was picking up on could not be fabricated or indirectly produced by Ripley playing as scum.

Why'd you stay distant Ergo? Why was the madness scummy on one end? I took your case too far?

Will you answer the questions in Destructor's last post?

FoS: Ergo

Won't vote quite yet.
For pairing:
I sincerely doubt that Destructor would have come up and attacked Ergo instead of simply letting Garn hang. Some of his questions and suspicions are quite insightful, and I think Ergo has dodged many issues and not shown as much interest in somethings as maybe he should have.

Then again Destructor might have easily predicted that with a deadline so near the Ergo lynch was not going to happen anyways.
In which case, kill Ripley and the movement dies and with Porochaz absolutely itching to see me hang, Ergo and Destructor will have little problem getting that done, especially when they seem such an unlikely pair after Destructor's late D-1 case/vote. They couldn't have coordinated this though, it would have had to been an excellent well-thought out play by Destructor alone. But the effort seems so genuinely town, I'm just not sure.

In either case, Ergo was paired with me early for buddying up to town=me. And now for bailing me out-me=scum.
So Ergo is scum with both possibilities. Why not hang him first?
Zeek will go on to die, and then we can sort it out. Seems stupid, but it is logical.

[Civil Scum]

I never said Erg0 was your scum buddy. However what he was saying in that post seemed to me to be logical and more from an IC stance than anything else. What he said was true and if there was a slim chance you arent scum then its probably a good idea not to vote you until everyone has had there say.

An IC stance? Anyone who knows anything knows you shouldn't have voted that soon. It's logical because you are behaving irrationally.

Yes, Ergo has a good grasp of the game becuase he is an IC. However his overall contribution to the game in terms of reasoning and scum hunting certainl;y leaves something to be desired.

Porochaz went along with Zeek's case and voted Ergo. That is Zeek's EARLY case. You know, the one where Ergo was buddying up to me and stepping in to explain the rationale of a newbie. Yet in accpeting this possibility, my innocence never once crossed Poro's mind. If he was voting Ergo that whole time, while having me as the second most scummy, he would have had to link us the whole way through. He very obnviously didn't and simply shifted his vote back to me at an opportune moment.

CS wrote:

poro wrote:

my opinion hasnt changed at all but what you say is true and it wouldnt be fair to lynch CS without him talking so unvote, this unvote is almost certainly temporary though and it will go back on as soon as all the other 4 players post reactions on this game.


You would like to hear everyone's thoughts, and then (as your unvote is almost certainly temporary) you will then put your vote back on me. This is garbage.



Watch. I can guarantee this is what Ill do. The only reason I took the vote off was as a safety precaution not because I suddenly dont find you scummy.

A saftey precaution against what? You're not making sense. If u are so damn certain I am scum then there's nothing to worry about right?

You have essentially said that nothing will convince you not to put your vote back on me. And then you continually confirm that I am scum and you will not vote for ANYONE else.

Just vote and keep it there then, christ.

[Civil Scum]

What more convincing evidence can you hope to get? Are you waiting for two people to claim scum?

[Porochaz]

Wow, yes, yes I am, I'm waiting for two people to claim scum because Im that thick... no, however I think it would be unfair to vote for you if not everyone got there say. That is why the votes off and WILL stay off until everyone posts.

[Civil Scum]

After I pressed Poro about what could possibly make my case on Ripley more valid after I died.

->He asked Ripley to prove his case BEFORE Ripley mentioned Turbovolver. He also used the phrase "deluded townie" before the Turbovolver game was linked.

No I bloody well didn't!!! I made that one out of my own case.

You found me scummy for my attacking Ripley. Then when I switched you found me scummy for that->Based on that I had gone along with Ripley too readily. Again, paper-thin.

In regards to CS I guess I just think the evidence suggests that hes gone to far to be a deluded townie.

Porochaz made this post before the turbovolver game was linked and BEFORE I changed my stance on Ripley. Yet he cites it as the basis for his vote before AND after I flopped.
It appears genuinely fabricated.

Just a change of heart, huh! Just like that... your opinion changes just like that? That would make things look mighty suspicious if you had, lets take Ripley for instance, put up some sort of argument against him and now decided hes town? Oh wait, thats what has happened. Your like a colour-blind chameleon who is badly trying to find a way into the townie area by designing a theory that people like.

Lynching Garn regardless of what side towns on is stupid. Were hunting scum and lynching townies is going in the opposite direction. I said I would listen to any argument people had about anyone but yours makes absolutely no sense.

He doesn't for a second consider that my post explaining my wishy-washy presumptions is genuine. You can read it for yourself and decide. Post 252.

This chameleon thing in the town area resembles his conclusion that I was "screaming for a way out"->And as Ripley pointed out, a way out of what? I wasn't particularly on the radar when I went after Ripley.

His last point basically calls me stupid for agreeing with Zeek and Ripley.


Earlier:

I don't have much time at the moment but unvote, Ive contemplated doing this for a couple of days but have only now decided fully whilst I believe to an extent Civil is scum, there are others who have acted just as scummy in the last wee while. Im going to do some research and give my thoughts on each poster and give out my vote again (which could still go to Civil)

Porochaz was looking at Ergo and Leet (supposedly)

A few posts later.

Civil Scum: Is the most difficult to place, he acts scummy but always has an air of noobishness to him, for evidence against him you could look through many posts in the first 3 page and find it. However I decided last night when I unvoted him that he seemed more nooby than scummy and that most of the many things that he did could be explained by his lack of experience. This seems stupid thinking to me but its the most logical I can be and I don't particularly want to vote for someone just yet who I can't put my finger on.

Really? Did you lie to make me think the pressure was off?
Going along with Zeek's case on Ergo at the drop of a hat.

17 posts later

It wasnt just the over defensiveness, it was everything from and after the second request to take my vote down. A couple of people (including yourself?) told him that it was nothing to be worried about and its just to generate discussion. But he asked for a second time and OMGUS me purely on the basis I was voting him thats what made me think he was scummy.

Okay, but not anymore right (17 posts)...

I personally think the OMGUS vote was a big part of this and was a desperate scum trying to find a way out

Whaa?

Around this time Poro changes his tune on Leet/Destructor, saying he finds his odd behavior townish. But Post 143 does not read this way.

Unfortunetly destructor, you replaced him, so technically you ARE him. Whilst we can't ask you what your motives were at that point, we would not be wise to take it into account whilst voting and unfortunately as you are basically the same person (I know that sounds bad but within game terms its true) we can hold you responsible. However if I was going to vote for you I would be interested to see some more posts from you first, especially the 2nd half of that PBPA you promised us...

Responsible for behavior Poro had just previously decided was not too scummy. ?

CS wrote:

As it stands, all I can say for near cerainty are a few pairings I find impossible.

Ergo and myself: All of the suspicions revolving around Ergo's alignment are based on the case that I am town, and he is buddying up to me. I don't see how this case can stand as scum bailing out scum.



Why do you include yourself in this? Why do you see yourself as a potential pairing? That seems a bit suspicous...

Does it?

Here you go into PBPA... Your doing the impossible partners thing... who's peapod scum with? Id like to know who are your most likely scum pairings?


Your 100% unsure about Ripley, how can you be 100% unsure, that sounds deliberetly confusing... you can't be 100% unsure, you can be unsure but not 100% because by being unsure your struggling between 2 or more choices, thus not being 100%.

About as perceptive and useful as the two red sweets thing.

I'm reviewing my position...I'm not willing to do this until I hear from everyone...I'm reviewing my position...My position doesn't exist becuase it's not real and it never plays a factor in any of my reasoning.

Post 184

4. Whilst I'm not going to buy into it just yet, I can see where the Erg0/CS connection is coming from.

This connection and case was not really formed yet.
Garnasha asks him about it in the subsequent post.

Well, again,
chaz wrote:
I haven't seen anything to suggest Ripley is scum beyond Civil who I spent most of my first few pages attacking and Erg0 who I have my vote on currently.
so I personally think it isn't to much of a stretch to see them two scum together, there relationship within the game is certainly an interesting one and yes I am considering it but as you'll have read I am not buying into that theory yet. Its just one of the possible outcomes.

It might not be a huge stretch, but calling an idea (a possibility) you have in your mind a theory that you're not buying yet is strange. It is a possible outcome, reviewing it.

When Ergo asks for expansion, Poro cites my Post 62 as immediate distancing. This is a considerable stretch. It wasn't distancing. I was responding to Ripley's words of caution about why Ergo's buddy-up seemed like bad timing for a scum.

Actually the only reason why asked that was basically a test for Ripley, even though I disagreed with you, I did see your point about Ripley making a big long post then not actually vote. I asked him to back his convictions. If he thought you were scum he'd vote for you, if he had a good reason why not, fair enough and if he didn't give me much of an explanation then I may of had to rethink my stance. However Ripleys later posts led me to the second option of those 3, therefore my vote remained the same.

There is a problem with this. Along the lines of the "sure" comment to keep the pressure on and the Peapod is very likely town comment.


Poro consistently says these are the people I find more scummy than "the others"
but he really hasn't attempted to build a case.

Reviewing the game Poro, you seem a little bit like a leaf in the wind. But at the same time, when it comes down to it you stick to your convictions. You're play is troubling and when I mentioned that you seemed to latch onto every case and suspicion and add a few decent/not so decent points, you responded by simply saying "Well this paragraph wins paragraph of bullshit in this thread"-Watch your language please.



I definitely don't like Ergo using complete WIFOM as a defense against one of Destructor's early points.

Ergo, if your town you must have something figured out by now? You can't play clueless the whole game u know.

Ergo? Leaning towards town for destructor and Zeek, so what now?

Ergo and Porochaz for me now.

[Civil Scum]

Christ, just re-reading this page.

Its interesting in so far as its a pretty good case against Erg0, its not the sort of topic I can get into easily in mafia so whilst not ignoring it Im not replying to it until I feel I have to. Anyway its an interesting post and until Erg0 posts a response to it, I cant say much more about it. I assume thats what CS is doing considering his response to it was only 1 line saying Erg0 was back on his radar.

There a lot of explaining that your behavior is okay because of stuff that I have done.

I made the radar comment before Destructor's considerably damning post on Ergo.
You're misrepresenting my behavior and using it as some strange defense of your own.

[Erg0]

A quick question while I get things together.

Porochaz: Why did you vote so quickly?

I don't see what's so significant about destructor's post at the end of day 1 - he was basically repeating himself and/or splitting hairs. I already answered most of those points in previous posts, and I find it odd that it's suddenly so much more credible now than it apparently was yesterday at deadline (since nobody voted me other than destructor).

CS: I really don't like the way you're trying to steer people towards me based on Ripley's death. That sounds to me like "my cunning plan to set him up isn't working, I'd better point out that Ripley was suspicious of him".

Don't worry, I'm not so clueless any more. Big post coming in the next couple of days.

[Erg0]

Also, a quick IC tip:

In a 5 player LyLo situation, once the first vote is placed every player who posts afterwards without voting is almost certainly either:

a. Town
b. Scum with the voter
c. Scum with the person the vote is on

This is one of the few principles that I have been able to apply with pretty much 100% accuracy. The reason is that if the voter and the votee are both townies then the scum can just add their two votes to the wagon and win the game by lynching the townie. Unfortunately it's not that much use to

me

in this game, since I was the only one to post between Poro's vote and unvote, but this sort of thinking will help you to narrow down possible scum pairs.

[Porochaz]

Christ, just re-reading this page.

Its interesting in so far as its a pretty good case against Erg0, its not the sort of topic I can get into easily in mafia so whilst not ignoring it Im not replying to it until I feel I have to. Anyway its an interesting post and until Erg0 posts a response to it, I cant say much more about it. I assume thats what CS is doing considering his response to it was only 1 line saying Erg0 was back on his radar.

There a lot of explaining that your behavior is okay because of stuff that I have done.

I made the radar comment before Destructor's considerably damning post on Ergo.
You're misrepresenting my behavior and using it as some strange defense of your own.

Im doing this out of order as I have work to do and would rather finish it before I start looking at that long post. As Erg0 said, its basically a rehash of what was stated before and I was going to say that in the PBPA I was going to do yesterday but decided I didn't have the time. However, I think there wasn't much point in commenting on this until Erg0 made a response as it gives a lot more clearer picture than just posting on destructors post.

[Porochaz]

A quick question while I get things together.

Porochaz: Why did you vote so quickly?

I don't see what's so significant about destructor's post at the end of day 1 - he was basically repeating himself and/or splitting hairs. I already answered most of those points in previous posts, and I find it odd that it's suddenly so much more credible now than it apparently was yesterday at deadline (since nobody voted me other than destructor).

CS: I really don't like the way you're tryi voteng to steer people towards me based on Ripley's death. That sounds to me like "my cunning plan to set him up isn't working, I'd better point out that Ripley was suspicious of him".

Don't worry, I'm not so clueless any more. Big post coming in the next couple of days.

I voted quickly as the deaths of last night had in no way changed my opinion of Civil. I didn't see any point of beating round the bush with my voting when it was clear I was going to vote Civil. Then you made your post and I realised that if I was wrong (which btw I'm sure Im not, but I have been known to be sure and be wrong before) then that was it game over. So I unvote, let everyone speak have there opinion then put my vote back on therefore knowing everyones stance on the game and to be sure that people have there say, whether its against Civil, against me or anyone, then I will put my vote back on.

[Porochaz]

Im interested in that as well, it seemed like he was well after me and then suddenly there was a post about an Erg0/destructor pairing, which is an interesting theory... but is weird in the general scheme of things.

Large post coming up in a few hours...

[ZeekLTK]

I'm not sure what to make of all this but I really don't like Erg0's posts so far this day.

First post is valid, but it maybe makes you think he's trying too hard to come off as town "hey, we don't want a speed lynch, take your vote off".

And then he says:

Also, a quick IC tip:

In a 5 player LyLo situation, once the first vote is placed every player who posts afterwards without voting is almost certainly either:

a. Town
b. Scum with the voter
c. Scum with the person the vote is on

This is one of the few principles that I have been able to apply with pretty much 100% accuracy. The reason is that if the voter and the votee are both townies then the scum can just add their two votes to the wagon and win the game by lynching the townie. Unfortunately it's not that much use to

me

in this game, since I was the only one to post between Poro's vote and unvote, but this sort of thinking will help you to narrow down possible scum pairs.

What is the point of this? And what other options are there that could happen in OTHER situations? It would seem a, b, or c applies to ANY point in the game (you are either town or you are scum with someone...)

Let's look at it this way: *IF* CS and Poro are somehow both town, it seems to me the whole point of this post was that Erg0 is trying to persuade each of them into thinking he is town.

Just look at it from the eyes of each person he's including in his list: If Poro is town, he is the voter, so he will think "well, Erg0 is not my scum partner, so he is either town or he is with CS"... and if CS, as the "votee", is town he will think "Erg0 is not with me, so he's either town or with Poro". Therefore, Erg0 gets the two to continue thinking the other is probably scum and hopefully try to appear as townie himself.

But the thing to me is, since like I said above, a, b, or c applies to ANY point in the game. You are either town or you're scum with someone... it's not that big of an observation. I guess the only other possibility would be that d) he posted but is not any of the above, so that means he is scum with neither the voter nor the "votee"... so is that what you are trying to say? It's you and destructor? But since you left off that possibility you are hoping everyone forgets about that possibility?

However, I'm not so certain that Poro or CS are town, although I am leaning towards Poro being town, especially now that we know Garnasha was.

The way CS has gone after Erg0 a bit here makes me wonder if they talked at night and decided they'd try to distance from each other by going after each other early on during Day 2. Then if we do end up lynching one of them, the other will be like "ah see, I was against him the whole time", making it tough for us on Day 3.

I mean this is somewhat of a reversal from the end of Day 1 where CS basically tried to ignore destructor's case:

Destructor is making an excellent case. I need to read through it a couple more times. I still think garn is a safe bet, but Ergo is certainly back on the radar.

Just mention that he's back on your radar, but keep pushing for townie garn to be lynched. And then when the issue doesn't go away:

There are a couple points of destructors in his case on Ergo that aren't quite as solid as they appear. The place where he accuses Ergo of fabricating evidence when he said that Zeek had voted for me. There was an explanation for this earlier, I'm not sure if it suffices.

There were a couple other things but I don't have the time right now.

Above he said it's an "excellent case" but now all of a sudden (just a few posts later) he says the case isn't solid, and claims there are other reasons than the weak one he gives, but never gives them ("I don't have time"...)

But now all of a sudden it's a good case again and it's time to go after Erg0. But why now? And what happened to all these "other things" that were wrong with the case that suddenly aren't any more?

And then this... from a couple posts ago:

Zeek will go on to die, and then we can sort it out. Seems stupid, but it is logical.

What is this suppose to mean?!?! Are you trying to hint that you are going to kill me during Night 2?

[Porochaz]

K so I made a large post but it timed out and I dont have time now so youll have to wait longer for it, sorry.

[Civil Scum]

Poro fabricated reasons to find me scummy. He's been completely tunnel-visioned this entire game (self-admitedly) but has not used this to implicate any other play.e

CS: I really don't like the way you're trying to steer people towards me based on Ripley's death. That sounds to me like "my cunning plan to set him up isn't working, I'd better point out that Ripley was suspicious of him".

As I said, I don't think that Ripley's death can be used as evidence. He was a logical choice for just about any scum.

I found it strange that you-Ergo killing Ripley didn't cross Poro's mind. That's what I was getting at. He automatically suspected me and gave some shoddy-ass reasoning as to why Ripley dying imlpicated just me. When really it was going to be Zeek or Ripley who died, regardless of who the scum are.
Poro, do u look both ways before u cross the street?

In this vein Ergo, by suggesting it was a set-up by me, then u must agree he is the person you would have killed IF you were scum. ? Also, you calim that Ripley's death is what I'm using to steer people towards you. I didn't think that was the case. You did this to Zeek early too. Calling it feeble reasoning, an understatement to be sure.

Post 314. Ergo. It is also possible that Destructor and Zeek had not looked a the game yet. In which case, none of this applies. I'm also a little sick of IC tips. As I said, throughout the game Ergo's contribution has been less than noteworthy.

This was the point in Destructors case which I had issue with.

Erg0 wrote:
Given that he was using these assumptions as the basis for a vote, I found this notable. I was attacking his assumptions, just as you're attacking mine.

What are these assumptions Zeek made? And the fact that you've suggested here that you found something that never happened (Zeek using some 'assumptions' as the basis for a vote) 'notable' pretty damning. You fabricated evidence about Zeek. Why?

I believe Ergo had adressed this. The overall impression of Zeek's post was anti-CS. Ergo later recalled the events as Zeek voting for me, which in fact he didn't. It is not entirely accurate to say he was fabricating evidence when it was inaccurate memory.

Ergo being ready to flip a coin on me and Ripley after uninvolvement doesn't sit right. Also he really hasn't answered Destructors's questions to my satisfaction.
Leading up to Garn's lynch (when me and Poro were bickering AGAIN) he says that a lot of it feels like townie vs. townie arguing. But if he wasn't incredibly suspicious of Garn, Zeek, Ripley, opr Destructor, then he must have been considering that there was some scumminess between either Poro or myself.

However, I'm not so certain that Poro or CS are town, although I am leaning towards Poro being town, especially now that we know Garnasha was.

Could you expand on this? I find Porochaz's generous labeling of Peapod and his "well I'm not gonna lynch Garn, you guys go ahead if you'd like" more damning now that Garn has turned up town. In fact, I believe Poro's entire treatment of the Garnasha dilemma suspicious.

Civil Scum wrote:
Zeek will go on to die, and then we can sort it out. Seems stupid, but it is logical.


What is this suppose to mean?!?! Are you trying to hint that you are going to kill me during Night 2?

If we nail a scum, you are the likely canidate for the second NK. That's all that was.

I wrote:

Now that I am becoming suspicious of Poro and to a lesser extent Ergo (based on Garnasha's alignment)

Long before Destructor's late D-1 post. Ergo was back on my radar at this point especially if Garn turned up town. Calling destructor's questions "splitting hairs" and stating that I'm using Ripley's death as the main point in steering towards him is all understated side-stepping.

I very sincerely wanted Garn to die.

Just mention that he's back on your radar, but keep pushing for townie garn to be lynched. And then when the issue doesn't go away:

He looked increasingly scummy, and I also saw him as a potential pair for Poro. Can you really blame me for p[ushing for his lynch?

With Garn as town Poro/Ergo are tied for second in my mind. I can't rule out destructor however. But this only works if Poro is some insane townie who found scum on the first page and never lkooked anywhere else, although he simultaneously claims that he has and hasn't.

[Erg0]

I think that both you and Zeek have missed the point of my post 314. All that I'm saying is that if I were scum with either destructor or Zeek then I would have simply voted CS so that my buddy could hammer. I've seen this happen multiple times in newbie games, where day 2 has been over in a matter of hours thanks to a quick townie misvote followed by two scum votes. Regardless of your feeling on IC tips, I'm not going to intentionally mislead you on strategy. It's important that you wrap your head around the consequences of votes today.

Zeek, your dislike of my post 300 is fairly baseless. My advice on voting was the same advice that I (and many other ICs) give in the same situation in every Newbie game I play. As I said, I've seen games end in a matter of hours thanks to a town-on-town vote early on day 2.

[Porochaz]

K cause youve now made another long post Im going to just do the main points.

After I pressed Poro... to genuinely fabricated

No I used my own case on all of my arguments against you. Ripley had already suggested you were that kind of person before he linked to the Turbovolver case.

Just a change of heart... to

Lynching Garn regardless of what side towns on is stupid. Were hunting scum and lynching townies is going in the opposite direction. I said I would listen to any argument people had about anyone but yours makes absolutely no sense.

He doesn't for a second consider that my post explaining my wishy-washy presumptions is genuine. You can read it for yourself and decide. Post 252.

This chameleon thing in the town area resembles his conclusion that I was "screaming for a way out"->And as Ripley pointed out, a way out of what? I wasn't particularly on the radar when I went after Ripley.

You were definetly on mine... but no suprises there. Im sure the other players wouldnt have been able to say "Civil, he must be town"

His last point basically calls me stupid for agreeing with Zeek and Ripley.

Nope I was saying that thought process was stupid. Don't take it as a personal attack I obviously said it generically so I was either calling all 3 of you stupid (which wouldnt be wise from my front) or calling your thought process stupid.

Earlier:

I don't have much time...to ...(which could still go to Civil)

Porochaz was looking at Ergo and Leet (supposedly)

Was looking at Erg0, never looking at Leet around the time you posted your two quotes I said That I was tentatively putting Leet as town. I said you were "scummy/nooby" and wasnt sure between the two hence my unvote. I went into this a lot more in my OP but the just is there.

Really? Did you lie to make me think the pressure was off?

No I never did that, I always said there was something scummy about you

17 posts later

It wasnt just the over defensiveness, it was everything from and after the second request to take my vote down. A couple of people (including yourself?) told him that it was nothing to be worried about and its just to generate discussion. But he asked for a second time and OMGUS me purely on the basis I was voting him thats what made me think he was scummy.

Okay, but not anymore right (17 posts)...

I personally think the OMGUS vote was a big part of this and was a desperate scum trying to find a way out

Whaa?

Whaa? Im saying exactly the same thing in both of those quotes...

Around this time Poro changes his tune on Leet/Destructor, saying he finds his odd behavior townish. But Post 143 does not read this way.

Unfortunetly destructor, you replaced him, so technically you ARE him. Whilst we can't ask you what your motives were at that point, we would not be wise to take it into account whilst voting and unfortunately as you are basically the same person (I know that sounds bad but within game terms its true) we can hold you responsible. However if I was going to vote for you I would be interested to see some more posts from you first, especially the 2nd half of that PBPA you promised us...

Responsible for behavior Poro had just previously decided was not too scummy. ?

That quote was a hypothetical quote explaining why people would vote for destructor based on leets actions. The second half of that quote was explaining what should be done to help people get a voew of destructor rather than leet and I was interested in his PBPA.

Poro:Why do you include yourself in this? Why do you see yourself as a potential pairing? That seems a bit suspicous...

CS:Does it?

Yes it does, why list yourself it doesnt make sense, can you see yourself in a potential pairing with anyone else? Of course your not going to think your in a potential pairing with anyone if your town so you wouldnt list it. If your scum, you pair yourself up with someone to go "see Im not scummy at all". By listing yourself it makes you look more scummy, there was no logical reason to do it whether you were scum or town.

Poro consistently says these are the people I find more scummy than "the others"
but he really hasn't attempted to build a case.

I think I made a fairly large case against you. I made a case on Erg0 as well. Even if it was largely on Zeeks.

Watch your language please.

You made me laugh here. Ok I'll try.

Next Post coming up...

[Porochaz]

K will type in

bold

as its probably easier for everyone.

Poro fabricated reasons to find me scummy. He's been completely tunnel-visioned this entire game (self-admitedly)

no I didn't ever admit it, I keep looking at you, but I have also been looking at Erg0 and destructor, my times spent mostly on replying to your posts but I dont see the point in convoluting things when Im sure about you

but has not used this to implicate any other play.e

CS: I really don't like the way you're trying to steer people towards me based on Ripley's death. That sounds to me like "my cunning plan to set him up isn't working, I'd better point out that Ripley was suspicious of him".

As I said, I don't think that Ripley's death can be used as evidence. He was a logical choice for just about any scum.

I disagree to an extent, there have been less active players and others who didn't get involved with the Ripley-Chaz-CS thing. Killing off the one person who had made a case against you but went on to defend you would seem a logical choice for you though

I found it strange that you-Ergo killing Ripley didn't cross Poro's mind. That's what I was getting at. He automatically suspected me and gave some shoddy-ass reasoning as to why Ripley dying imlpicated just me. When really it was going to be Zeek or Ripley who died, regardless of who the scum are.

Erg0 killing Ripley, possible I guess but no advantage in it I dont think

Poro, do u look both ways before u cross the street?

yes, more than once on occasion

In this vein Ergo, by suggesting it was a set-up by me, then u must agree he is the person you would have killed IF you were scum. ? Also, you calim that Ripley's death is what I'm using to steer people towards you. I didn't think that was the case. You did this to Zeek early too. Calling it feeble reasoning, an understatement to be sure.

Post 314. Ergo. It is also possible that Destructor and Zeek had not looked a the game yet. In which case, none of this applies.

Zeek obviously has

I'm also a little sick of IC tips. As I said, throughout the game Ergo's contribution has been less than noteworthy.

This is a newbie game... IC tips help mostly.

This was the point in Destructors case which I had issue with.

Erg0 wrote:
Given that he was using these assumptions as the basis for a vote, I found this notable. I was attacking his assumptions, just as you're attacking mine.

What are these assumptions Zeek made? And the fact that you've suggested here that you found something that never happened (Zeek using some 'assumptions' as the basis for a vote) 'notable' pretty damning. You fabricated evidence about Zeek. Why?

I believe Ergo had adressed this. The overall impression of Zeek's post was anti-CS. Ergo later recalled the events as Zeek voting for me, which in fact he didn't. It is not entirely accurate to say he was fabricating evidence when it was inaccurate memory.

Ergo being ready to flip a coin on me and Ripley after uninvolvement doesn't sit right. Also he really hasn't answered Destructors's questions to my satisfaction.

Getting involved now... when I read destructors post for the second time I felt most of this had been stated before. He stated this and whilst an new/restated answer may be useful, he probably (I cant remember and am not looking it up as Im about to go eat pizza) has answered it before and is not as patient as me when going to repeat himself

Leading up to Garn's lynch (when me and Poro were bickering AGAIN) he says that a lot of it feels like townie vs. townie arguing. But if he wasn't incredibly suspicious of Garn, Zeek, Ripley, opr Destructor, then he must have been considering that there was some scumminess between either Poro or myself.

However, I'm not so certain that Poro or CS are town, although I am leaning towards Poro being town, especially now that we know Garnasha was.

Could you expand on this? I find Porochaz's generous labeling of Peapod and his "well I'm not gonna lynch Garn, you guys go ahead if you'd like" more damning now that Garn has turned up town. In fact, I believe Poro's entire treatment of the Garnasha dilemma suspicious.

why?

Civil Scum wrote:
Zeek will go on to die, and then we can sort it out. Seems stupid, but it is logical.


What is this suppose to mean?!?! Are you trying to hint that you are going to kill me during Night 2?

If we nail a scum, you are the likely canidate for the second NK. That's all that was.

I wrote:

Now that I am becoming suspicious of Poro and to a lesser extent Ergo (based on Garnasha's alignment)

Long before Destructor's late D-1 post. Ergo was back on my radar at this point especially if Garn turned up town. Calling destructor's questions "splitting hairs" and stating that I'm using Ripley's death as the main point in steering towards him is all understated side-stepping.

I very sincerely wanted Garn to die.

Nice line there

Just mention that he's back on your radar, but keep pushing for townie garn to be lynched. And then when the issue doesn't go away:

He looked increasingly scummy, and I also saw him as a potential pair for Poro. Can you really blame me for p[ushing for his lynch?

With Garn as town Poro/Ergo are tied for second in my mind. I can't rule out destructor however. But this only works if Poro is some insane townie who found scum on the first page and never lkooked anywhere else, although he simultaneously claims that he has and hasn't.

Wait Im looking at you as scum, this makes no sense

[ZeekLTK]

K will type in

bold

as its probably easier for everyone.

However, I'm not so certain that Poro or CS are town, although I am leaning towards Poro being town, especially now that we know Garnasha was.

Could you expand on this? I find Porochaz's generous labeling of Peapod and his "well I'm not gonna lynch Garn, you guys go ahead if you'd like" more damning now that Garn has turned up town. In fact, I believe Poro's entire treatment of the Garnasha dilemma suspicious.

why?

To CS: Because initially I felt that Poro and Garn might be a scum pairing, but since Garn wasn't, that kinda ruined any case I might have had against him.

But (and to answer Poro's "why?") now that I think about it, that doesn't necessarily clear him. In fact I do see what you are saying: that him being mafia and knowing that Garn was town would lead to his play where he decided he was not going to lynch garn... so that on Day 2 he could say "see I wasn't in on the lynch"... however he's posted a lot on Day 2 here and he never once tried to bring up how he wasn't involved in the lynch, so that also leaves me wondering if you are grasping at straws to try to incriminate him for not killing a townie.

But there really was no reason (for anyone) to defend Garn, especially the way he was playing, so hmmmm... I will have to think about it a bit.