Newbie 480: Game Over!

[Porochaz]

vote Civil Scum

I have reason to believe he's not civil at all!!!

[Porochaz]

K Ill reconsider... later when I have evidence to prove otherwise... having someone 2 people to lynch is not a dangerous situation at the moment because if 2 more people vote quickly causing Civil to be the first person to be lynched then it would be more obvious who the mafia were (presuming hes a townie) because they would be the ones wanting quick kills...

[Porochaz]

Why are you asking peapod to reconsider his/her vote when he/she is voting for me... (Im sorry I forgot to check before I posted)

[Porochaz]

Ah sorry, and sorry again, thats what I meant when I said I didn't check, I prefer posting with the "Post Reply" button so I dont have to memorise tags... but then I dont know the persons gender Im talking about/to. Ill get there eventually.

As I already said, I will not consider changing my vote and until yourself or other people convince me otherwise. This may be the random stage of the game, and if it makes you feel better, its still a random vote with no basis except to make you sweat, which you seem to be doing... I'm not one to change my vote without making sure I, personally, am sure. I will give you a chance however, you seem keen not to be two votes away from the slaughter and have now asked me twice to remove my vote, so beyond the reasoning that "I am a townie and if you lynch me you lynch one of your own" how can I be sure that not lynching you is a benifit to the rest of the group?

[Porochaz]

K whilst im waiting for someone to post can one of the ics tell me how to watch a topic, thanks.

[Porochaz]

1. Civil Scum, your vote is purely on the basis Im voting for you, yes? You feel you should not be at L - 2 so early as your new? (however the aim of the game is to kill mafia, not be nice to the new guys) but as someone said before someone should be because if we all voted differetly its like voting nothing at all. So, obviously, not voting for myself, who should I vote for?

You are currently the prime suspect in my book. I can tell you now my vote will be staying on you unless something major changes my mind because 23 posts in, (including mine) I am sure your scum. Your excuse "Im new" doesn't hold up with me. This is my first game here, 3 other people are new as well... and your OMGUS vote confirmed it, you actally didn't give a reason beyond the fact you want me at L - 2 as well presumably to take the pressure off yourself... I dont think that reason is sound.

2. leetonicon, I like your erm... logic... if Im getting this right... so Im going to ask you to clarify your statement, so I make sure before I make any wrongful assumptions.

I ask for anyone beyond myslf and Civil Scum to tell us what they think, I also just want to hear from people generally, your past experience with Mafiascum and Mafia in general, for example. This is my first game here, although I used to mod games elsewhere. I also very occasionally play in the real world.

[Porochaz]

Also thanks Ripley, sorry for the doublepost.

[Porochaz]

So first he panics and asks that a vote be reconsidered (and why is he only asking one of the two people voting for him to remove it? Why would you not ask both people? Why is he "okay" with leetonicon voting for him but not Porochaz??), then he casts a vote that for some reason he feels he has to justify, so he tells us he is "obligated" to cast an OMGUS vote (which he most certainly is NOT obligated to do... I don't think anyone else did).

I mean obligated by myself, not obligated by the "rules" or the situation. Since my name automatically gets mentioned for a random vote (it's just easy), I have made a rule of voting for the person who does it first. I know the first few votes are random, How is the incorrect use of obligation a scum tell? I know I don't NEED to justify a vote this early and that's not what that was.

When you are the candidate who is looking like a suspect the most and you vote the person leading the invstigation, I would think it wise to give an explanation... usually no, but this game got "serious" faster than others I have read so yes I personally think you do need to justify your vote this time

You feel you should not be at L - 2 so early as your new?

It isn't L-2 that bothers me, it is a quick lynch with a bad town vote.

Im voting for you, yes but that doesn't mean you'll get a quick lynch. You have to convince other people of that first, I believe you may be scum but thats not to say others do.

My worry here with this game is that you are SURE this soon that I am scum, while the evidence is not THAT fantastic. I am the prime suspect, true, but mostly because I'm the only suspect at the moment. 23 posts is just a start.
This isn't an attempt to curry your favor...

unvote

Well, I think the evidence is stonger than anybody else at this moment. You are the only suspect at the moment, so although I won't take back my vote, I want to hear from other people before I see you lynched.

leetonicon wrote:

Hmmm.... I've been wine-in-front-of-me-ing for a while trying to determine what to make of what's been done so far. The fact that Porachaz voted for CS to put him at L-2 slightly early in the game suggested to me that they might be connected.

For the two scum to attack each other like this first off D-1 (while a viable option especially in real-world games) is not the best tactic when there are so many other players. If you ask me, you are stretching, first to read to much into my voting, and secondly to read even farther and suggest that any of this links porochaz and me. At this point, it is WIFOM, it is not coordinated behavior and nothing can be read into this.
It looks like you are trying too hard to find scum based on little evidence.

Thats what I read from it. I think from both of our stances against each other this behaviour would not be wise, why would I be building a case against Civil if we were both scum? Wouldn't that be a stupid thing to do as it would be effectively lessening the scums chances to win. Granted if I had voted and said nothing/very little then there could be a chance. However, looking at it objectively, my making such a case (strong/weak or otherwise) against Civil would suggest that we are not linked.

(And actually, CS's first request struck me as the reaction of someone new who didn't want to be the first day lynch which indicates nothing of scumminess or not; the second request (as was pointed out by others) is a little bit stranger)

You somewhat defend me and then say that my second post was srtranger. It pretty well asked again for porochaz to reconsider. I'd call it polite, cause if he's town I don't want him to get duped by some scummies on weak evidence.

I am well aware of the fact, I do want to hear from other people. I am voting for you because I, personally, think the evidence is strong enough. However I would like to hear from other people first. If you were at L - 1 I would probably take my vote off to hear from other people before deciding but fortunetly Im not in that situation yet and don't feel the need to mess myself around just at the moment.

The fact the we now have two L-2 bandwagons appears to be a good thing for the town,

Explain why this is good please. Two BWs early is good for town y?

I personally wouldn't call them bandwagons. I'm leading one with yourself, leetonicon who thinks we have some non-sensical plan to vote for each other to keep both of us safe? And Civils one, what was a OMGUS vote and a random vote. (Now only a random vote)

but the fact that both wagons (Noob question: is wagon the appropriate term at L-2 on day 1 or does it have to be L-1 to be considered a wagon?) are unstable in the sense that each wagon contains a vote from the person being threatened by the other wagon and that makes me wonder whether CS's action was designed to look like he's helping the town while not actually helping as much as it would seem.

I'm with porochaz here, this doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Again, you seem to be reaching too far for some strange reasonings behind not-to-strange behavior. Early in this same post you introduce the idea that porochaz and I have made an early attempt at distancing, then later in the post... I'm turning in a townie? What exactly are u accusing me of here?

I didn't say that but essentially is what Im thinking (not just the bit quoted, the whole post). I am interested in an answer for that last question.

So, I'm keeping my vote on Civil Scum for now, FOS'ing Porochaz and hoping one of the other uncommitted people either starts a 3rd bandwagon or pushes one of these two to L-1.

Before we've heard from anyone else, you would like a 3rd bandwagon (how does this help the town? There's only 2 scum) and/or you'd like either/or/both me and porochaz pushed to L-1. You created some strange explanation and planning that "are" behind my voting patterns, and then FoS porochaz (asking and hoping someone L-1's) soley on the basis that porochaz and I could be distancing.
This is the scummiest post on the whole page, but hey thats just my opinion.

Its an interesting one, Im not sure what to make of it. It certainly makes me think, whilst I could (but won't) mistake Civils reaction as noobishness (not going to, because I don't think it is), yours doesn't feel like newbie thinking it's frankly, just weird. So

FoS: leetonicon

but until you post again thats the way it'll remain.

[Porochaz]

I'll have to keep this short, which will hopefully as a side benefit keep it readable:

2) I'm rather concerned that Porochaz, Civil Scum, and myself have all gotten wrapped into a discussion and it's been quiet from everyone else... especially at our IC brethren who I would have thought should have stepped in (or will step in shortly since this has been the weekend) to ensure that the town has some potential information to work on for day 2.

Ill keep it short as well... agreed. Ive made my thoughts on both of you clear, now I want to hear from someone who hasn't spoken much yet...

[Porochaz]

The "sure" comment was A. To keep the pressure on Civil and B. a slight mistake on my part showing my over keenness in the game... I believe that him asking me to take a vote off is suspicious and I think that his OMGUS vote confirms that I should be voting for him currently, but no, to be honest, I'm not sure. I would be very foolish of me to be so. Only 3 people, myself included, have talked in depth, in this game, 33% of the suspects (viewed from me). I am uneasy of leet but feel I need a few more posts/pages before I can say he scares me with that AK47 he's holding... As for Zeet, I think he's ok, he is the only other person I could give a guess about but not a well educated one (a very dim one).

[Porochaz]

leetonicon is saying that its setting us up for Day 2 not that it is Day 2

[Porochaz]

I don't think its a risk that should be taken. We have the ability to work it out now by killing someone townie off now we make it very hard for ourselves

[Porochaz]

May post when I am totally sober but I feel its hypocritical now for me to say Zeek is guilty in fact I disagree basically because I was thinking around about the same area as Zeek, Zeek was explaining his suspicions and I dont think that his are "way out field" however I feel you maybe grasping to find someway to take the heat off CS...

...So I ask you and NOT Civil Scum what was CS meaning if he wasn't meaning it? Why can other people post there suspicions and not Zeek?

[Porochaz]

If I was at L - 1, I wouldn't be puting across my arguments as to why Im not scum to just one person... I woud put across the arguments to all the people who are voting to me.

[Porochaz]

He is responding in that post to me, he then asks straight after to reconsider my vote. He votes for leet. This is a random vote.

I say no.

He asks again.

I say no again.

Because I refuse to budge he OMGUS votes me, which he is allowed to do providing he's doing it for the good of the town and not because Im voting him, which he has admitted.

After his random vote leet is not mentioned once.

The point remains, I responded to his "please can you change your vote" because he asked me, he didn't ever ask leet to take the vote off of him. It would have been ok if he had left it at that or then asked leet and whilst my vote may still be on him he would be looking a lot less suspicious. He looks so suspicous now because he asked a second time and OMGUS me... He also tries to pass off Ripley noticing his uneasiness as non-evidence as he's new. When whilst that may be correct its still able to be used to show he is scum.

[Porochaz]

K lets do something about it then...

mod

can we get a prod on peapod please?

[Porochaz]

I don't have much time at the moment but

unvote

, Ive contemplated doing this for a couple of days but have only now decided fully whilst I believe to an extent Civil is scum, there are others who have acted just as scummy in the last wee while. Im going to do some research and give my thoughts on each poster and give out my vote again (which could still go to Civil)

[Porochaz]

eta: Im not doing that till tomorrow

[Porochaz]

Not technically, Im reviewing my position, I only unvoted to show that Im doing this fairly and evenly, as I said I think hes still scummy, to a degree.(not that you get degrees of scumminess but in relation to other people) I also assume you havent ruled Civil out of the race yet either. My vote stayed on him to keep the pressure up now whilst this is splintering off into other people (which is what I hoped would happen) I don't see the point in keeping my vote on Civil whilst I review people actions in the game.

[Porochaz]

Right Im going to try and keep this short but knowing me its going to get quite long...

Start with the easiest:
peapod: has had few posts and the one she made latterly in the game explained her absence which, I believe , she also thinks she doesn't have much to contribute to the "over-explored" Civil talk, which is fair enough I guess. Town but not 100% until we have a few more posts.

Ripley: Has been helpful in clearing stuff up for us noobs (as have they both so thanks both of our IC's). He hasn't been scummy in any way I can see. Which means hes a good experienced player. (which I believe he is) or he's town (which I also think he is)

Zeek: Has had more or less the same thinking I had with Civil. I think he's the most likely to be town. In my eyes he hasn't done anything scummy. (there was an accusation earlier on but I can't find it in my posts below this reply... so if someone wants to highlight that I would be interested...)

Civil Scum: Is the most difficult to place, he acts scummy but always has an air of noobishness to him, for evidence against him you could look through many posts in the first 3 page and find it. However I decided last night when I unvoted him that he seemed more nooby than scummy and that most of the many things that he did could be explained by his lack of experience. This seems stupid thinking to me but its the most logical I can be and I don't particularly want to vote for someone just yet who I can't put my finger on.

leet: His logic at the beginning confused me, He explained it and I wasn't convinced. His comments about 2 bandwagons I didn't think was correct and for a while I was wondering if that could be viewed as scummy but just decided it was a difference of opinion. He thinks that two bandwagons is good, two "incestous" bandwagons are bad. I personally feel that maybe against Civil was a bandwagon because although only two people were voting for him there were others who went against him. Against me however I don't think that was a bandwagon. Not sure what I think about his being offline recently, however I hadn't really noticed and wouldnt of asked for a prod, so am not going to use that to build evidence against him. But will ask other people, was leet's absence felt by you? I'm not sure but I'm tentatively saying town at the moment but am definetly watching with interest.

ErgO: This post

Written by Zeet

Let's look at erg0 shall we? No one else seems to be paying attention to his actions and are just accepting that he is attacking me for questioning someone who is acting suspicious (is that pro-town?).

On page 1 what did erg0 contribute? The first random vote of the game, and then a post with very little (if any) substance to kinda remind us that "hey, I'm here... even though I'm not contributing anything".

All he says is that "CS seems to be a little panicky" to address the situation that was a major talking point of the first page (and still is), and he just leaves it to that. Then he waits and, instead of following up on his own suspicions, he picks out people (me in this case) who are making valid cases and, for whatever reason, tries to divert attention on them.

Is it because he is CS' scum partner? Maybe. Or possibly another answer is that he is scum and knows that CS is town, so he is free to defend him because if somehow we do lynch CS then erg0 can be like "hey look, I was never trying to get him lynched, I'm not suspicious".

I think this post sums up what I am thinking currently, he's trying to be both sides of the fence and it's not working very well. His latter posts whilst having substance don't sit right, in post 54 he is sorta defending CS and then says what both me and CS have been saying about leet. Whilst you suggested CS was a bit panicky early on (according to Zeek, Im going to go back and check this) and were unsure about him, you've defended him to quite an extent but there is nowhere in this thread showing why you changed your mind... It doesn't sit right with me at all and I'm going to go and look at the thread again to look at some of the content in your posts but I am already thinking your scum.

Major Fos: Erg0

whilst I read over and then will probably vote right afterwards

[Porochaz]

K thanks for telling us that pablito

Vote: Erg0

for reasons above

[Porochaz]

pablito can we get a vote count please?

[Porochaz]

Peapod hasnt posted much but her excuse for not being here is a valid one, in my opinion, even though she shouldnt of signed up if she was going to be away... what she has posted though has been in no way scummy to me anyway, when I say "Town but not 100% until we have a few more posts" what I mean is if I had to choose Id say town but Im not about to recommend her as "Townie of the year" as we dont have enough substance to say either way.

[Porochaz]

Thank you

[Porochaz]

The overreaction aspect has been well explored, I didn't see a need to throw my two cents in as well at that point, because CS was already under plenty of pressure and I wasn't going to put him at lynch-1 for it. The appropriate thing to do at that point was look around for other topics of conversation.

But at that point you weren't prepared to defend him either. Surely if you thought that it wasn't scummy all the way through you may have played a bigger part on page 2?

Quite often the explanation for someone doing something really odd like freaking out on two votes is that they don't know any better. If you're going to freak out at two votes, you'll do it as a townie or as scum. Nobody wants to be lynched, after all. There's no question that it's overly defensive, but can you present a reason why it's

scummy

?

It wasnt just the over defensiveness, it was everything from and after the second request to take my vote down. A couple of people (including yourself?) told him that it was nothing to be worried about and its just to generate discussion. But he asked for a second time and OMGUS me purely on the basis I was voting him thats what made me think he was scummy.

Likewise, I don't necessarily think that Zeek is scummy, just that his page 1 argument wasn't as valid as others took it to be. The OMGUS vote isn't helping that situation, though.

Right time to clear this one up. You do know were talking about the OMGUS vote against me and leetonicon, don't you, because the leet one looked random enough. The only reason I ask is because when you talked about it you quoted post 12 (?) Which was the one he OMGUS leet.

I personally think the OMGUS vote was a big part of this and was a desperate scum trying to find a way out

I'm mildly suspicious of leetonicon, as he's kind of stayed out of the way while keeping his vote on CS. I don't like the way he immediately speculated on a CS/Porochaz pairing on page 1; it's far too early to be forming conspiracy theories. Still looking at everyone else

Whilst were here, he kept his vote on CS because it was random, at the start the only person to go against was CS. However I agree with you that his theory was strange and slightly to early.

The Fos then the vote happened purely because I wanted to make sure I had my facts straight before voting, I looked and found my reasoning to be good enough to vote without any further explanation. I mean if your looking for a reason why I voted just look directly above that post.

[Porochaz]

Let's look at erg0 shall we? No one else seems to be paying attention to his actions and are just accepting that he is attacking me for questioning someone who is acting suspicious (is that pro-town?).

On page 1 what did erg0 contribute? The first random vote of the game, and then a post with very little (if any) substance to kinda remind us that "hey, I'm here... even though I'm not contributing anything".

All he says is that "CS seems to be a little panicky" to address the situation that was a major talking point of the first page (and still is), and he just leaves it to that. Then he waits and, instead of following up on his own suspicions, he picks out people (me in this case) who are making valid cases and, for whatever reason, tries to divert attention on them.

Is it because he is CS' scum partner? Maybe. Or possibly another answer is that he is scum and knows that CS is town, so he is free to defend him because if somehow we do lynch CS then erg0 can be like "hey look, I was never trying to get him lynched, I'm not suspicious".

unvote, vote: erg0

Can someone clarify OMGUS to me... I assumed it was purely voting for someone because they voted for you. Now Im not going into whether hes right or wrong here but it seems that Zeek has clarifyied his reasons why he voted for Erg0 and that this shouldnt be an OMGUS like Erg0 said it was the post below. I only bring this up now as I thought he was meaning CS's OMGUS vote on me.

[Porochaz]

K Thanks, thats fair enough I guess

[Porochaz]

Tis ok, your going through it the right way and I hope your problems are resolved soon

[Porochaz]

Sorry I keep doing that... I usually realise before I press the post button and change it, I dont really know why I do it, so Im sorry Ill try and post Zeek from now on...

[Porochaz]

Yeah, hope to see you around peapod... I am however interested to hear what leetonicons replacement has to say... and what peapods replacement will now bring to the game...

[Porochaz]

Ok we shouldnt stop posting just because were waiting for a replacement... Zeek, you haven't posted anything beyond your name correction in a while so what are your thoughts on Erg0 since the last time you posted? and destructor, Im sure you would of posted this anyway but what your read on the game just now?

and CS has gone a little quiet since the pressures off...

[Porochaz]

Ok I was trying to get the convo back up and running... when I said you hadnt posted for a while I was meaning in term of the posts you hadnt posted anything (whether chatty or not) in 22 posts. You also missed my big post 87 and my post 89 where I ask a question relating to the game and in what way did Erg0 mean it.

In the last 15 posts you'll notice that only Erg0 has provided a substantial post due to our drop outs, I think its fair to say we can say goodbye to folk who are retiring... so counting 2 of those posts were to say goodbye, 1 of those posts was apologising for getting your name wrong, 1 was saying to Erg0 "ok I can understand where your coming from with that" (post 91) and the last one trying to get the game back on track (what I thought could be called a substantial post, correct me if Im wrong...)

Now before I posted 107 when was your last substantial post? I think 83 or is there something there that I'm missing?

[Porochaz]

Ill be away from tomorrow afternoon till Monday morning

[Porochaz]

I notice you miss post 109 completely and bring up some totally random point, however I will not ignore your post...

It seems to have been missed that peapod was actually the first person to make an overstated reference to L-2 in Post 8. In Post 14 she kind of echo's what Porochaz has already said before jokingly suggesting that CS may be scum.

Interesting that you bring up Porochaz and peapod, I was wondering if anyone else noticed this (post 70):

So post 70, it seems to me as Ive had a bit of a go at you, you have tried to find some random point to get me back, which came kinda randomly from a destructor post which really is

only

relevant because it mentions both of us.

Right Im going to try and keep this short but knowing me its going to get quite long...

Start with the easiest:
peapod: has had few posts and the one she made latterly in the game explained her absence which, I believe , she also thinks she doesn't have much to contribute to the "over-explored" Civil talk, which is fair enough I guess. Town but not 100% until we have a few more posts.

A little bit of discussion occurred afterwards, mostly concerning the "100%" that he said, but it basically got swept under the rug. I want to know if I am the only one who found it odd that Porochaz would list peapod, who had been extremely inactive and not really contributed anything, as his person who is "most likely to be town"?[/quote]

Please quote where I said that. Cause I think you won't find it...

He says "start with the easiest", so that would imply that peapod is the "easiest" to identify as town. Meanwhile the play in the game would make that completely opposite, peapod had hardly done anything so she would be the hardest to put a finger on as to which side she was on.

Start with the easiest as in for me to type about, you seem to use some crap logic to work out that because Im typing the easiest to begin with they

must

be town in my eyes? Wrong. I started with peapod because A. she had nothing much to do with the game, B. I didn't have much to type about her and C. I had already come to my conclusion that her few responses had been what I think has been pro town but because of her lack of posting you cant say one way or another.

So I'm wondering what motive Porochaz had for doing this and listing a questionable player like peapod as town, especially considering peapod's activity (or lack thereof) at the point he made the post...

I didn't list her as town, full stop, I listed her as probable town but we wont fully know until she posts more. Just because you suspect peapod doesn't mean everyone else has to take your opinion for granted.

Apologies for anything badly bolded or unquoted I tried typing them as the buttons cause me problems...[/quote]

[Porochaz]

Don't worry Zeek Ill find the quote for you!

the most likely to be town

So I found it, in the same post you quoted... but lets expand that quote further, shall we...

Zeek: Has had more or less the same thinking I had with Civil. I think he's

the most likely to be town

(Porochaz's note: There it is!!!). In my eyes he hasn't done anything scummy. (there was an accusation earlier on but I can't find it in my posts below this reply... so if someone wants to highlight that I would be interested...)

Well... I think you may of mis-quoted me there...

[Porochaz]

What did I miss about post 109? You responded to me and I felt that was at least an adequate response so I had nothing more to say. Are you talking about the questions at the bottom?

Now before I posted 107 when was your last substantial post? I think 83 or is there something there that I'm missing?

Well apparently you didn't read what you had written directly above that, because you answered it for me:

In the last 15 posts you'll notice that only Erg0 has provided a substantial post due to our drop outs, I think its fair to say we can say goodbye to folk who are retiring... so counting 2 of those posts were to say goodbye, 1 of those posts was apologising for getting your name wrong, 1 was saying to Erg0 "ok I can understand where your coming from with that" (post 91)

and the last one trying to get the game back on track

(what I thought could be called a substantial post, correct me if Im wrong...)

No, I didn't expect you to answer those questions but I was hoping youd respond in some way (before I mention it). The bit in bold is for later.

So you are questioning when I last posted, and try to make it seem like it was a while ago (by saying post 83), but then you admit that NO ONE has really posted anything in the last 15 posts, so I don't see what your point is... you are just trying to bring unnecessary attention to me for some reason.

This is all after you originally singled me out for no reason by saying I hadn't posted in a while when it was a Tuesday afternoon and I had just posted on the previous Sunday night... and there were several people that hadn't posted in a longer period of time, including peapod who, for some reason, you are giving a free pass to regarding being a townie.

Well the first thing is the bolded bit, as I have already explained to you... I asked you simply to get the game going again... I chose you, as you hadn't written in a while. 7 Players, 2 had posted substancial posts after you, 1 was me, and 2 had asked to be replaced

including peapod who hadn't had her replacement resolved yet

and the other... the other was Civil Scum, who I also brought up as quiet..., the second thing, I never gave her a "free pass", please refer to the last post to see my explanation. The third thing, if thats not enough, is there is a difference between posts 83 - 93 and posts 94 - 107 in that from post 83 - 93 there was 3 out of the "active" players having a discussion, in posts 94 - 107 there wasn't.

In fact, maybe it's worth to note in the last game I played, we had a guy who also made a list about who he thought was scum and who he thought was town. That guy ended up being mafia... so that's another reason I'm suspicious of your list.

Well I think you'll find a lot of people make lists and just because one person in your last game made a list and he was mafia doesn't mean everyone in Mafiascum who makes a list is mafia. People make lists to show where they stand.

But okay if I misinterpreted what you meant by "easiest" then fine, that's your explanation. But you progressed down the list with people and went from town to who you thought was scummy, so I think it's fair for me to determine that if you have people that you think are scum at the bottom and people you think are town at the top, that it's not unreasonable for me to assume that the higher up on the list, the most likely you think that person is town. I guess I mis-used the quote marks because you didn't say it specifically, but that is what I was implying that I thought you meant, so I used quotes when I typed it.

Well I said you were least scummy and I believe you were third on the list...

I was just pointing out that, after destructor mentions the two of you went after CS early that there was also another connection in post 70 and felt it was significant enough to bring up again. I personally hadn't noticed what destructor noticed during the early part of the game, so when I read post 70 I was suspicious of it, but I didn't really have any reason to bring it up yet, so I just let it be for the time.

Well firstly peapod was wrong there as CS pointed out in post 9:

No just me...Porochaz, you might want to reconsider that vote, cause I'm so civil it's disgusting. I'm starting to wish I had chosen a different name, but since we are rolling, here's my obligatory point-back. vote: leetonicon

and secondly, I don't see the link between us, care to expand on that?

I see you also posted when I started this so to carry on instead of double posting (I keep a seperate tab open so I can refer to stuff whilst I post)

It seems like ever since I questions why you followed my "crappy logic" (to quote erg0) to change your vote and put it on erg0 you've been attacking me.

I followed you because I agreed with you, I didn't think it was bad logic. Ive been "attacking" you ever since post 123, which I posted less than 3 hours ago. I disagreed with you about my posting habits before hand but I wasn't making a case for you to be scum.

[quote="Zeek]
Like I said, it is one thing to come up with "bad logic" and not be able to see it is bad logic yourself, but it is completely different to try to "agree" with someone else's "bad logic" and use that as a reason to do something.[/quote]

So wait, your saying that your logic is bad logic... but its in inverted comma's so it must mean you think its good logic, therefore I can think its good logic as well... no wait, your saying that although you cant see it as bad logic, everyone else should be able to and not follow your route. That just confuses me a bit, even more so the fact that I gave a bit of an explanation myself why I was voting for him then in post 87,(which you have ignored) I answered Erg0's answer to my vote, which by the way, you ignored even though he asked both of us and you posted before me.(about post 54...)

So I am still wondering:

-What is your motive for following my vote and putting yours on erg0 as well?

Its explained pretty well above but I would of thought that it was fairly obvious, given the explanation when I voted...

-What is your motive for giving peapod a free pass at this point in time? I mean, you could have taken a stance that "there isn't enough content to make a decision one way or the other" but instead you decided that peapod is probably town...

Ive explained this at least twice now, do I really have to do it again, when your just not reading it or even responding to my previous answers...?

I need to say Ive just come back from camping so please just ask for anything to be clarified that you think looks garbled, Im quite tired and this long post has drained away most of my energy so I might just be hitting random keys at the moment and thinking they look like words...[/b]

[Porochaz]

I think it is, but only when combined with other things... simply because it doesn't make any sense, if your worried about being lynched at the random voting stage you ask for anyone to take there votes off not just one, (Im assuming that more experienced players wouldn't ask at all considering its just the random vote stage) its simply a please don't vote for me cause I don't want to have to be under pressure, combine that with a second post asking, a random bad post or a OMGUS vote then I would say yes it is.

[Porochaz]

Ripley are you a he or a she? I dont see it on your profile

[Porochaz]

Ok thats fair enough he it is then...

Whilst peapod may want to be here she doesn't or can't post enough to actually have a proper influence on the game... peapod, I know pablito didn't replace you when you asked so you carried on but I'm asking both you and pablito to reconsider yourself being replaced, thats only if you cant post regularly, the current rate at which your posting now is not good for the game and if you have some sort of exams coming up then maybe its for the best?

I second that prod

not that prods need to be seconded...

[Porochaz]

Thanks for that pablito. Eagerly awaiting Garnasha's read on the game

[Porochaz]

His latest post (a few posts above) is more on leet. To answer your question, CS, I think that leet's posts weren't inherently pro-town (that's not to say they were necessarily anti-town either), but it looks to me like you're jumping at them and trying to see them as only scummy, speculating a lot in the process. I can't speak on behalf of leet's actions, so unfortunately there isn't that much I can say in defense to your analysis. Despite this, I'm not suggesting that leet's posts shouldn't be used to judge me to a degree. But I am saying that I, personally, can't be held accountable for everything that he did, anti-town or pro-town.

I disagree, you are him and you are 100% accountable for everything he has done.
I am very close to re-voting.

Unfortunetly destructor, you replaced him, so technically you ARE him. Whilst we can't ask you what your motives were at that point, we would not be wise to take it into account whilst voting and unfortunately as you are basically the same person (I know that sounds bad but within game terms its true) we can hold you responsible. However if I was going to vote for you I would be interested to see some more posts from you first, especially the 2nd half of that PBPA you promised us...

As it stands, all I can say for near cerainty are a few pairings I find impossible.

Ergo and myself: All of the suspicions revolving around Ergo's alignment are based on the case that I am town, and he is buddying up to me. I don't see how this case can stand as scum bailing out scum.

Why do you include yourself in this? Why do you see yourself as a potential pairing? That seems a bit suspicous...

Porochaz and myself: too early, too risky

Leet and Porochaz: also too blatantly coordinated

Ergo and Leet: I find it highly unlikely that Ergo (as scum) would help take the heat off of me and place his vote directly at his scum-buddy's feet. Although, leet has messed up pretty bad...so maybe later I'll reconsider this one.

Zeek and anyone: I can't find a single scummy morsel in Zeek's posts.

Peapod: leaning towards scum for no apparent reasons

Ripley: 100% unsure

Here you go into PBPA... Your doing the impossible partners thing... who's peapod scum with? Id like to know who are your most likely scum pairings?

Your 100% unsure about Ripley, how can you be 100% unsure, that sounds deliberetly confusing... you can't be 100% unsure, you can be unsure but not 100% because by being unsure your struggling between 2 or more choices, thus not being 100%.

[Porochaz]

Garnasha, I understand most of what your saying but you'll need to make your notes more clear if you want me to respond fully to them. In the mean time Ill try and answer bits of it...

poro tells CS not to worry, but adds that he doesn't know why lynching him wouldn't benefit the rest of the group. What rest of group? Is this preparing CS for getting bussed?

No, it was a question to CS not a statement. I basically asked him to tell me why I should take my vote off him.

poro says he waits for someone to post wtf.

I'm on a hell of a lot and in the beginning I was naive at the speed these things go. That post was mainly to ask the IC's a general question.

porochaz gives off scummy vibes and tries to make a case about him being linked to CS seem stupid. Added: this mimics CS.
He also thinks it unfortunate the situation doesn't demand of him to unvote.

No matter what orientation you are, (town or scum) you are going to deny anything that links you as scum to someone else. Leets suggestion was not thought out very well, and I stated it. You'll notice I make my thoughts vocal frequently. CS was the person I was linked to so we are bound to make a similar argument... And I never said it was unfortunate...

porochaz says leeticon isn't mentioned after the random vote is removed, while in fact the vote is put back on leeticon. Blind?

Don't know what this is referring to but yeah, probably, I usually dont wear my glasses when online...

and sometimes walls of text are needed, when people like me just cant find the shortened way to say things...

[Porochaz]

I actually think I got most of it so I take my request for rewriting your notes back...

[Porochaz]

Porochaz, you're awfully defensive and seem to take most comments as an attack on your civility. Not sure if this is a scum tell, as u also had a back-n'-forth with Zeek about posting habits (non-related game material) Anything thats makes you seem scummy to me completerly screws me up, because as I said I don't think poro and leet can both be scum.

You may have noticed I like to reply to any questions that are raised to do with me, I come on a lot so I like to make replies, Garnasha made some notes on me, I felt I should explain my reasoning behind various things but looking back on it I only feel Im properly defending myself when I talked about the leet link between us two. The other 3 things I raised I joked about 1, I made sure Garnasha understood my post in the first point and my first line of this post explains the naivity factor that I mentioned in the post above.

Also I didn't feel I was on the defending end when Zeek and me had our argument, I felt I was the one "attacking", if you like, him.

[Porochaz]

Thanks for that destructor, very detailed and Ive certainly picked up on a few things from your PBP that I missed, as far as the peapod thing goes, I guess my opinion will have more ground to stand on (whatever that opinion may be) when Garnasha starts doing his quick fire posting!

BTW, Garnasha, I don't particularly think this has been a slow game. It got slow when we were looking for replacments but thats only natural, before that it was relatively fast paced and I thought it looked like it was speeding up again. But I am looking forward to seing what your quick fire suspicions are and hope we get some interesting discussion.

[Porochaz]

Before you start questioning people Ive got a few of my own...

destructor, I didn't really read what you said after my previous post, but if you keep posting walls of text I'm going to lynch you just to keep the thread readable.

I liked destructors wall of text, he was making a pbpa and I got a clear view of where he was coming from. I occasionally post "walls of text" I think everyone who has had a major play in this game has posted one long post...(myself, destructor, leet when he was playing, Erg0, Zeek, CS and Ripley) Now this I don't think is scummy so why lynch him? and why do you think you have the power to lynch him by yourself?

I repeat: I'm a bit busy irl, wait till I've finished my tests please. I WILL vote for the next person commenting on my not posting. I've made my situation clear, only scum would make a case out of me not posting yet.

ok, but again not helping us find scum, people could have missed your post, there are a variety of reasons why people are wanting to listen to you, your promising to get this "slow game" running again and we are waiting for you to make your post once your tests are finished. Sorry if we are impatient.

[Porochaz]

EBWOP:Now this I don't think this is scummy so why lynch him?

[Porochaz]

K, you asked so ll try and give my reason for why Ripley is not scum. (which arent very good...) 1. We have numerous others in the picture of scumminess. We have two scum in this game, so whilst Im not taking Ripley out of the picture it does seem unlikely. 2. I'm a bit of a mathematician, if were going to play it by odds then its unlikely that our two IC's are scum together, especially with there wee arguments they have now and then. Personally I think Erg0's scum, that why I have voted for him. 3. I don't believe that in 13 months, Ripley can become uber great at town being scum. Whilst experience is key how would we as noobs be any good if the IC's were infallable. 4. Whilst I'm not going to buy into it just yet, I can see where the Erg0/CS connection is coming from.

Hope thats good enough. A few questions have arisen about this one though me writing this though.

CS: Why ask other people for there opinions, wouldn't it be better and give you more informaton if you asked/grilled him a bit more? I mean I only answered your question because A. you asked it and if I didn't answer it someone else would have and B. my points I wouldn't have thought could be replicated that easily by Ripley and be turned into a defense.

Ripley:This is concerning my point no 3. I'm not sure you answered this and I dont really want to open a new window to check in case my internet screws up again so I cant check but what was your previous mafia experience before this?

[Porochaz]

oh dear, enough material to work with without going through the previous 8 pages.

K I know your in more games than this one. However I myself am in 4 games just now, 1 of which had pages in the double figures by the first 24 hours and a second which I replaced into after 16/17 pages. I am however, keeping up quite easily especially with the one I replaced in. You can't expect us to stop to wait for you, because if you haven't noticed we tried that and you gave us a few aggresive posts and a summary of page 1.

poro, on your points:
1. this is basically saying: we got 6 ppl who could be scum(not counting oneself), only two of them are, so I think it's unlikely this particular person is scum. Something feels very wrong about that. I could do that with everybody, and two out of six times I would be wrong.

Its saying weve got 6 ppl who could be scum(not counting oneself) only two of them are, so having made notes and looking back on the last 8 pages I don't see much to convince me Ripley is scum. Simply put, Im not voting for him because I think others are more likely to be scum.

2. ehm, the chance that ripley is scum if erg0 is scum is no bigger or smaller than the chance that it would be civil scum/you/me/zeek/leet. All those six chances are statistically one out of, surprise, six. This is a null argument you give.

Yes, it's totally at random. But if you put 5 blue sweets and 2 red sweets in a bag and ask the seven of us to pull out a sweet without looking how likely is it our two IC's are going to both pick the red sweets?

3. wtf? you're just saying here that ripley would be better scum than you'd expect after 13 months? Got no direct arguments against, but I think a year is enough to fool any newbie.

Sorry I said this wrong I meant scum being town. I think experience has a part to play in this game but doesn't cover you from being caught out as scum. I haven't seen anything to suggest Ripley is scum beyond Civil who I spent most of my first few pages attacking and Erg0 who I have my vote on currently. Now this doesn't automatically mean I don't listen to there opinions, it just means that I take them with a pinch of salt and try to decide do there words benifit the town?

4. Well? Where does it come from? Erg0 deffing CS earlier in the game? IF Erg0 is scum I think it is more likely CS is town than scum, and Erg0 was buddying up to him. If you even consider using this as an argument against someone else being scum you fell for it.

Well, again,

I haven't seen anything to suggest Ripley is scum beyond Civil who I spent most of my first few pages attacking and Erg0 who I have my vote on currently.

so I personally think it isn't to much of a stretch to see them two scum together, there relationship within the game is certainly an interesting one and yes I am considering it but as you'll have read I am not buying into that theory yet. Its just one of the possible outcomes.

Riply: I meant before you started on MS.

[Porochaz]

1. Relativism. Just because you find four other people scummy, that doesn't mean you should ignore the other two.

I made a post above with this point explained, Im not ignoring anyone. And I never said any numbers to the people who I think are scum or not.

2. Ripley and I have the same mathematical chance of being a scum pair as any two players. Our IC status is irrelevant, I'm as likely to be scum with Ripley as I am to be scum with CS, or anyone else for that matter.

Agreed, we all have a 2 in 7 chance of being scum here. I just don't think you two are scum together and lets face it, I have had my vote on you a while now without changing it so Im more likely to think Ripley is more scum than you are

3. It's not that hard to play scum in a newbie game. 13 months is plenty of experience to become good at playing as scum on day 1.

K well that may be true, my lack of experience here made me think that some may make a mistake.

4. Awaiting your expansion of this point.

Hmmm, I don't really see the need considering Im just highlighting it as one of the possible outcomes, but put simply and quickly: you defend him slightly which could be described as scum buddying up with a townie (as Ripley said) then as soon as someone says that CS starts distancing himself away from you in Post 62.

[Porochaz]

K thats weird, I started typing up my post and it directed me to the last post I made... anyway, I am interested in where CS stands with you currently.

Mod can we have a vote count

[Porochaz]

Right this is probbly going to be full of mistakes since I can only quick reply currently as it not letting me onto the reply page.

FOS: Destructor
Leet's behavior was exceptionally scummy, and no one has yet to explain why in the world he would feel the need to let us know that he and Poro actually unvoted simultaneously. Destructor hasn't done much to convince me he's town. But his posts are sensible and reasoned.

This was to be sure he wasn't rapped for something that could of looked scummy, we both unvoted simultaneously it was coincidence and leet felt he had to say something just to make sure it wasnt viewed te other way. It actually seems a weak way to move your vote onto someone else.

Considering Ripleys just made, what I think is a great post thats going to have Garnasha tearing his hair out and screaming NO WALLS OF TEXT!!! basically condems you and your response confirms it for me. You spend the first bit of your post focusing on Ripley being away for the week, something in Ripleys post which could be viewed as a point but not one to make the "Im not scum because of this" statement, you spend to much of your post arguing over this point and frankly if you were going to change my mnd its not over this.

Im bored of your talk of the General Feeling, your talk in the post above is more attacking Ripley rather than defending yourself.(which kinda adds to your "blaze of glory" thing). You also claim that Garn, me, Zeek and Erg0 are all townies at the moment. To keep us on side perhaps?

Lets face it, you could of probably guessed that today (day 1 not today today) I was always going to vote for you or Erg0. Erg0 I feel has been scummy but has fallen out of my radar recently. His scumminess is largely based round CS, is my thought and I'm interested to see his play if your not around. You however have done little to improve my situation with you since our argument on page 1 and I see no reason not to lynch you now.

unvote vote:Civil Scum

[Porochaz]

...well you know, Im going on my feeling rather than "what Ripley thinks". CS, I have argued with you most of this thread, the only thing I think we ever agreed on was leet and his weird thinking behind us. Now Ripleys post helped me decide between what I see as my two options just now. Ripley accuses you of spin, you accuse Ripley of word bending, your repeating him.

Now Im happy with my vote. You'll notice I had it on you for a good time, I then had it on Erg0 for a while, I think before I vote, I make sure I know why Ivote for someone, I don't just jump in there.

Ripley, I have to ask you to put your money where your mouth is, (I think thats the right saying) whats happening with your vote? CS is claiming Im the "scalp" (not sure what it means...) in your campaign and I personally don't think I am as I have my own reasons. But it does interest me, why after such a negative post you havent even FoS'ed him. So are you going to vote for CS and prove his argument wrong? or are you keeping your vote on Garn and make me look like a "scalp"?

CS, there are just to many inconsistencies and bad posts, you bombard us with your general feeling and don't say outright what you actually think your counter-arguments to Ripley aren't that great as I highlighted above, you did nothing much to change that. I said this:

You also claim that Garn, me, Zeek and Erg0 are all townies at the moment. To keep us on side perhaps?

and then afterwards you say twice to me

Don't be the scalp Poro.

Everything you do is trying to keep the 4 of us on side, but in the wrong way. You would have a better chance of making me think twice if you weren't trying to attack Ripley so much and actually started defending yourself more. In that line your basically saying "your going to look stupid if you dont do as I say".

K another thing,

The thing with Zeek and Poro keeping their votes on Ergo, and his being at L-2 for so long, and so much attack but no FOS no voting, leads me to believe Zeek and Poro are town,

as well as Ergo

. I don't have time to go into this, gotta study for a test. Let's just call it a feeling for now.

Apart from the general feeling thing which so annoys the hell out of me you then say this:

Ergo, that was just to say that if Ripley manages to get me lynched here, and u survive the night, then town is probably screwed.

Why? I am trying to think of a situation where this statement wouldn't contradict the one above but I cant think of one. The only clear situation I can think of is that you are now saying erg0's scum. If you truely are town, then isn't that going to cast Ripley in a bad light? Do you not think that we may think before we vote?

My vote ain't changing, if Im a "scalp" so be it.

Oh, and your overreacting again as soon as someone puts pressure on you.

(and sorry Garn, you may be bald by the end of this)

[Porochaz]

I'd hoped to leave things to simmer a while longer; if CS isn't scum, the only thing we could really have hoped to gain from his increasingly obsessive campaign against me -would have been if scum pretended to find it convincing. But if you are insisting that you know right now what's happening with my vote, I guess I have to explain to you what I've been thinking. I'm at least as suspicious of Garnasha as I am of CS, who has at least been willing to put himself in the spotlight. Garnasha has lurked, complained, threatened, promised, grumbled and finally voted on what seems to me to be the flimsiest of reasoning. His contributions have been incredibly sketchy and it's not clear he's even read the thread, His predecessor did nothing but lurk and parrot. CS is a nightmare, but he might, as I said, be a wildly deluded townie on an ego trip. Unfortunately in Mafia you have to cater for people like that and not just scream SCUM at them automatically.

I never said I knew what was happening with your vote. I wanted you to clarify what was happening with your vote as your post confused me a bit. However, I can see why your voting Garnasha. I may be at an advantage because Im in two games with him and(whilst Im not a huge fan of meta gaming) he acts similar in both games and thats to big not to ignore. Im currently in the situation where Im not sure whether it's just his attitude or he's scum in both games... In regards to CS I guess I just think the evidence suggests that hes gone to far to be a deluded townie.

With a deadline now set we may all need to be more flexible in our voting choices. We have to avoid a no lynch at all costs. CS is my second choice at this stage, and Erg0 would be my third. I'd like to hear more from destructor and Zeek, both of whom seem to have been very quiet lately.

I agree however I want to wait till the last moment till I start becoming flexible, I would rather go for someone I would feel confident about being scum rather than someone who I feel has made iffy posts but I wouldnt be able to call them either way. (destructor for instance)

The thing with Zeek and Poro keeping their votes on Ergo, and his being at L-2 for so long, and so much attack but no FOS no voting, leads me to believe Zeek and Poro are town, as well as Ergo. I don't have time to go into this, gotta study for a test. Let's just call it a feeling for now.

This baffles me even more. If you're going to infer any meaning at all from this situation, where a player is at L-2 for a while without any apparent interest from other players in furthering the case, surely the meaning you would infer is the precise opposite of what CS says here. If the scum have made no move to advance a promising bandwagon, the likeliest reasons are that they're on the bandwagon already, or that the person being voted is scum. I'd like to hear CS's reasoning on this, if he has any other than "a feeling". To me it just sounds like he's invoking "feelings" wherever they'll back up the "Ripley and destructor" are scum theory, and regardless of the actual logic of the situation.

And the fact that neither me or Zeek or Erg0 just shut up after the votes. We were quite vocal about it until the replacements came in.

[Porochaz]

Wow I felt bored reading that link... I may go to sleep... It would just need one more annoying post to make me go out like a light...

Ripley's behavior is scummy as hell.

ZZZZZZZZZZZ...wha-

Sorry I just havent heard that one before... nothing much has changed your attitude or opinion in the last few pages let alone the last few posts. That quote above came after some other lame ass excuse to lynch Ripey.

Moving on...

Back with more on some of the other quesitons, and to adress other players besides Porochaz who seems to have made up his mind here. "...the evidence suggests he has gone too far to be a deluded townie"->Okay, what does that even mean? What evidence? Please justify your case before accepting Ripley's crap logic case.

Well I could do the falling asleep thing again, however the evidence could be anything from the first 3 or so pages and the last few... hell theres probably some stuff in the middle thats scummy as well, just to tired to go looking because yes, after a week of lectures, I am actually in real life tired and slightly grounchy, (can you tell?) I HAVE JUSTIFIED MY CASE OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN!!! and just to get this clear because I havent mentioned this AT ALL before, Im voting you for my OWN reasons I mentioned in my OWN posts. Ripleys post helped a bit but in the grand scheme of things you were almost certainly the one I was going to go for.

Attacking/defending, you could be typing the words of all the Christmas Carols you know into one long post and Id still say your over reacting. Just cause I say that, it doesn't specify what your doing in relation to other people in the game.

Moving on again...

Ripley, thanks for explaining why your votes not on Civil Scum, I see exactly where your coming from but again, Im not changing my mind. I don't think CS is overconfident, by looking once again at the L-2 situation early on. He may not like your playing style but it jut smells newbie scum screaming for a way out rather than overconfident townie who thinks people with a different playing style are all scum.

Back to Civil Scums post

Back with more on some of the other quesitons,

and to adress other players besides Porochaz

who seems to have made up his mind here. "...the evidence suggests he has gone too far to be a deluded townie"->

Okay, what does that even mean? What evidence?

Please justify your case before accepting Ripley's crap logic case.

Consistecy hmm... This is who you address (underlined), you then ask a question, two in fact (bolded, for ease), now the reason I bring this lovely bit up is because if you are going to address the other players, do it. Rather than address them and then ask me a question. This isnt necasserily scummy, its just annoying.

Like this

Other players: Whilst me Ripley and CS could rant with each other till deadline, it takes 4 to vote so we need your input as well, so what are your opinions, it doesnt have to be about this, although it could be useful, it could be about anything you find scummy. For example. Zeek do you still find Erg0 scummy? Garn, bald yet? Feel up to doing a PBPA yet? or maybe just a view on the situation at hand. Destructor, how do you feel about the whole Ripley/yourself pairing? Erg0, you posted recently (well actually everyone apart from destructor has posted in some form or another) got anymore feelings/views yet?

Mod, unless destructors given a reason and Ive missed it, can we please have another prod on her

[Porochaz]

K sorry about that forgot about that post

[Porochaz]

I may have to reconsider my vote on Ripley (PLEASE note this is not becuase I am just giving up becuase I don't think it's going to go anywhere) but rather becuase I would like to give this more careful consideration.

ah ok...I "believe" you

I don't like that Porochaz has just out and out voted for me asking Ripley to "prove" his case by doing likewise and ZZZZ'ing. Screw that.

Actually the only reason why asked that was basically a test for Ripley, even though I disagreed with you, I did see your point about Ripley making a big long post then not actually vote. I asked him to back his convictions. If he thought you were scum he'd vote for you, if he had a good reason why not, fair enough and if he didn't give me much of an explanation then I may of had to rethink my stance. However Ripleys later posts led me to the second option of those 3, therefore my vote remained the same.

The ZZZZZ-thing was harsh I guess but having to go over old ground bores the hell out of me. Saying "Im not accepting Ripleys crap-logic case, Ive made my own case a few times now" gets boring I dont like having to type it out over and over again. Your "Ripley behaivour is as scummy as hell" quote was random in that paragraph I thought. There was no real reason why you thought that, in that precise moment of your post and Im sure youve said it quite a few times in one form or another.

I'm still leaning heavily towards town for both Zeek and Ergo. Ergo's interactions with Zeek early on do not appear disgenuine and once again I think Zeek would get my nomination for 100% town if such an award existed. The whole crap logic voting case is interesting and I'll take a look at it. Poro was "sure" I was mafia on a relatively weak case (ie-that I was doing weird shit on the first two pages) and tyhen on Ergo on the basis that he might be buddying up (a large part of the case on Ergo-true?) and now on me again.

K the first part of the paragraph I don't dispute, thats your opinion and I see Zeek as largely townie as well.

The second part however, is this you "moving on"? Because lets face it I wasn't going to believe what you bracketed in a million years. I think your upset that Im attacking you again. Well thats obvious from the "screw that".

The thing is though your whole panicky attitude, the whole Erg0 defending/distancing thing and then your attack on Ripley. It all feels scummy to me, now you are the attackee so your bound to say its a weak case but I don't think it is. Me, Ripley and yourself have different playstyles. Me, I stick to my convictions, ok I will prod elsewhere but the main focus of my attack will be on the person most scummy. You, from my perspective, look at post X for something scummy and start picking away at it in the hope you find something decent to build on. Ripley has a less aggressive way, playing slightly more in the background, except when pushed forward, which you did just a wee while ago.

Yep, the case against Erg0 is affected by the whole thing with you and forms a large part of it. Except, my case against Erg0 is, to a large extent, fueled by you. So I look at you both and go "hmmm, I wonder how Erg0/Civil will react with Civil/Erg0 gone. How the dynamics will change? Now I can choose either one of you for the vote on this basis however it would be better if I went for the one looking more scummy from elsewhere to have a better chance of catching scum. That, my friend, is currently you.

I would also like to object to the deadline until we have the input of Garnasha and Destructor.

I say we keep the deadline for that day, if neither of them have posted by then they get prodded (by the deadline they should have posted anyway and if they havent then they would need to get prodded anyway) then wait 48 hours for them to post and extend the deadline to then. Thats my suggestion anyway.

I'd also like to

???

[Porochaz]

K another thing, Quote:
The thing with Zeek and Poro keeping their votes on Ergo, and his being at L-2 for so long, and so much attack but no FOS no voting, leads me to believe Zeek and Poro are town, as well as Ergo. I don't have time to go into this, gotta study for a test. Let's just call it a feeling for now.

Apart from the general feeling thing which so annoys the hell out of me you then say this:Quote:
Ergo, that was just to say that if Ripley manages to get me lynched here, and u survive the night, then town is probably screwed.

Why? I am trying to think of a situation where this statement wouldn't contradict the one above but I cant think of one. The only clear situation I can think of is that you are now saying erg0's scum. If you truely are town, then isn't that going to cast Ripley in a bad light? Do you not think that we may think before we vote?

Yes, it WOULD have casted Ripley in a bad light, maybe not so much now. Yes, it's just a feeling. You seem confident that my feeling would be sufficient to prove Ripley is scum should I be lynched. It would look bad for both Ripley and Ergo. This is of course my view, I don't see how you would be willing to go along with this Day-2 when it turns out I was just a deluded townie.

-----------------------------------------------------

Lets face it, you could of probably guessed that today (day 1 not today today) I was always going to vote for you or Erg0.

I don't believe this.
At any rate it doesn't seem very pro-town.

-----------------------------------------------------

Erg0 I feel has been scummy but has fallen out of my radar recently. His scumminess is largely based round CS, is my thought and I'm interested to see his play if your not around. You however have done little to improve my situation with you since our argument on page 1 and I see no reason not to lynch you now.

Ergo's scumminess is largely based around me in what sense? That he defended me early? What does it say about either of our guilt/innocence? A lot of the Ergo being a suspect sprung from his play with Zeek not me. Did u even read the portion of the thread which you've based your undying suspicion of Ergo on? And once I'm "not around" Ergo's treatment of my early foul ups will still be a factor.
----------------------------------------

Other players: Whilst me Ripley and CS could rant with each other till deadline, it takes 4 to vote so we need your input as well, so what are your opinions, it doesnt have to be about this, although it could be useful, it could be about anything you find scummy. For example. Zeek do you still find Erg0 scummy? Garn, bald yet? Feel up to doing a PBPA yet? or maybe just a view on the situation at hand. Destructor, how do you feel about the whole Ripley/yourself pairing? Erg0, you posted recently (well actually everyone apart from destructor has posted in some form or another) got anymore feelings/views yet?

Good questions. Will the answers actually affect your play at all?

Porochaz seems more suspect to me with every post.

You know Im actually considering unvoting you, why? because what Ripley said about twisting posts its true. You couldnt get a solid enough case against him for other people to back up so your moving onto other people, me. Making you look more like deluded townie rather than scum. Not that Im actually going to change my vote, I just seem to notice your following Ripleys thoughts about you a little to well and obviously.

I see once again Civil your powers of obseraion fail you, I did say "dont you think we may think before we vote?" Sure I would ask questions like Im sure a hell of a lot of people would ask me questions, but I wouldnt vote him before making sure. You may be intent with going headfirst into a wall and just try to lynch anyone going against you but I wont.

Next part: Well lets look back through the thread shall we and see who I have been arguing with. Well at the start I picked up on various things about your play,(a few pages) then leet (a few posts), then Erg0 (a few pages) then Zeek (a few posts/ possibly a page) then you again. I have spent more time on you and Erg0 than anybody else. Not for the laughs, cause I genuinely suspected you both. So I dont think its that weird why I
said it. I think it would look more scummy if I placed a vote on lets say Zeek here since I havent properly suspected him most of the game.

Next Part: Ill agree with you slightly, theres still the whole you and Erg0 dynamic that forms a large part of the Erg0 case. Granted him/zeek also form that but "in my thought" if you had read my post properly is my opinion just like your "general feelings"

Lastly: the questions were really for discussion maybe to get some other people into clearing there thoughts on who they want to vote for before the deadline. However, thats not to say I wouldnt listen, if someone came up with a good argument for person x then I would listen, go through the thread and think about recasting my vote. I see you as my first choice, the person I find most scummiest, but theres 2 scum in the game so if I have to change my vote to catch who I believe is the second scum member I will.

[Porochaz]

Aw jeez, Civil I wake up and decide to see if anyones responded to my pbp in another thread and I see youve posted and I just had to come and see what words you decided to twist this time

Honestly, wtf poro.

You know Im actually considering unvoting you, why? because what Ripley said about twisting posts its true. You couldnt get a solid enough case against him for other people to back up so your moving onto other people, me. Making you look more like deluded townie rather than scum.

Alright!

Not that Im actually going to change my vote, I just seem to notice your following Ripleys thoughts about you a little to well and obviously.

Umm, okay. Sort of a contradiction in two sentences, but okay. I just looked at the game and saw the same type of behavior from Ripley that I see here.

Not quite. I think that although your acting just the way the example Ripley made (turning everything someone says into something scummy, finding not enough support so moving onto someone else) your doing it to look more deluded townie than scummy now (possibly not before Ripley mde that example) I found your sudden switch onto me very interesting. Just as if you had moved onto anyone else in the game, coz lets face it, you were pretty dead set on Ripley for a while...

And also, u followed Ripley's thoughts too (str8 into a wall), then concluded that my thoughts on Ripley would be more accurate if I was lynched as town. Then u sort of follow Ripley's thoughts here about the deluded townie thing, but then...

Did you write this late at night because Im having a hard time understanding any of this post. But if I have to repeat the Im not following Ripleys thoughts argument Im just using them to help me along with all MY points then so help me god I may scream and start running away from anyform of technology that you could communicate with me from. Now, I am not doing currently but I will sort this stupid thing once and for all later on.

I see you as my first choice, the person I find most scummiest...

I have no idea what to make of this. You're not making any sense. And this recent thing between Ripley and I has you all up in a knot about proof in D-2. Isn't the
No case for anyone has changed your mind about Ergo and I-> u said so yourself.
Of course, little case can be made for destructor or garnasha. Who are u gonna change your mind to? Zeek, nah. Ripley, nah. And who else...

Oh that's right Ergo and I are scum, you said so yourself. Look out for the wall bud!

[/quote]

I didn't say that, I said you both were the most likely to be scum in my eyes. Your right about Zeek and Ripley, I wouldnt choose them to lynch unless some major evidence (like every post has the code "IAMSCUM" in it) but then you used those 2 names deliberetly didnt you? Because I would still be willing to listen to a Garn or a destructor case, which I think after 10 pages can be made even if its a that persons lurking to much case. (not that thats a case I would consider)

But would be useful if you explained the no-case cause once again your making no sense to me.

[Porochaz]

If voting someone based on someone else's bad case is a good scum-tell then...
Probably Porochaz gets the gold medal.
->Goes with weak evidence on me. FoS's Leet on my case. Votes Ergo on Zeek's case. Accepts Ripley's "case" on my scumminess recently. Basically tells me that I have nothing to worry about if I am town 'cause then Ripley looks so bad. Retroactively going to accept my bad case on Ripley only after I'm show to be town?-> My case is just as valid/invalid with me alive or dead. If my case isn't strong enough for Poro to vote for RIpley D-1, then why D-2.

Well this paragraph wins paragraph of bullshit in this thread, honestly the first few pages, were starting blocks to get somewhere with our voting AND even so it was the strongest case out there. I think you'll find I replied to leet first, I wasnt sure exactly what he meant but even so the general just was there and would you describe FOSing him as bad logic? Zeeks case: well everyone is telling me that was craplogic I still think he had a case but maybe its just me. The last bit... I dont really know how to say it any other way, so I won't. You don't read a full post let alone a entire thread Ive thought youve been suspicous from day 1, I made comments about left, right and centre now HOW can you say "Chaz took Ripleys "Case"". No I bloody well didn't!!! I made that one out of my own case.

There's a lot of other things I don't like/am picking up about Poro's posts, but to expand on them not with two absentees moments before deadline would be a waste of everyone's time and energy. But fot the sake of a record,

Why? Why say this and not act up on it. If you think Im scummy then go for it, please. As much as I hate repeating myself over and over I do enjoy watching you try and twist my posts in any shape you can to try and get anything out of them... And isn't this a bit scummy, He's scummy but its a waste of time so...

vote: garnasha

Unfortunate, but there's nothing he can say or do that would make me think it worthwhile to keep him around. REGARDLESS OF HIS ALIGNMENT

He tried to get things going back on destructor at a strange time in a strange way and I have a sneaking suspicion that he could very well be scum.

Well this was an interesting one. "I find chaz scummy, I did find Ripley scummy so... Im gonna go vote for Garn. He could be scum, he could be town for all I care. Theres no point in having him around. I just saw the suspicion mount up on him and jump on the impending bandwagon early."

[Porochaz]

Basically tells me that I have nothing to worry about if I am town 'cause then Ripley looks so bad. Retroactively going to accept my bad case on Ripley only after I'm show to be town?-> My case is just as valid/invalid with me alive or dead. If my case isn't strong enough for Poro to vote for RIpley D-1, then why D-2.

missed a bit I was going to comment about. But this bit once again proves that Civil is only reading parts of my posts he can twist into something else. IF your shown to be town, then I wouldnt vote for Ripley either way. I would ask questions as I bet someone would ask me questions about this whole thing. The case isn't strong enough, by the way, because I think your scum and don't really believe you. D-2 and a civil=townie lynch would give a little more evidence on your theory but nothing I would care to put my life on.

[Porochaz]

Mod

: would you consider a deadline extension, given that destructor, who was a replacement in the first place, has been unable to post for almost two weeks? He claims he will be free after the 31st - the 31st is Wednesday, so that must mean not till Thursday. The deadline is Friday. Since the game has kept busy in his absence I can easily foresee him requiring a couple of days to catch up, which would mean we'll get nothing from him before deadline. This seems very harsh on the rest of us who have had no choice but to play with one player taking no part for an extended (and, I think, unreasonable) period.

Agreed, it would have been ok if we hadnt got through a bit but now we have it would seem fair to give us a few days more for destructor.

[Porochaz]

Everyone has expressed a lack of suspicion in Zeek. His methods haven't felt at all scummy to me.

For reasons (beyond scumminess) which Zeek and Ripley pointed out, I believe it is in the town's best interest to lynch Garnasha regardless of his alignment. With a deadline approaching I don't see much of a point of making an argument and tyring to get three more people behind it in 3! days.

I can't BW myself, and if no one can make a good scummy case in 3 days, I don't see why we shouldn't just lynch Garnasha and be done with it.

In the most simple terms:
My flip-flop on peapod/garnasha, just like my other feelings of "Certainty" about people came about based on who I was viewing as scummy. My convictions on other potential scum and scum partners produced my feelings on garnasha, and also Zeek and Poro being town with their votes on Ergo-town.

After becoming quite convinced that RIpley is innocent, my entire view of the game changed. Now that I am becoming suspicious of Poro and to a lesser extent Ergo (based on Garnasha's alignment) my read on other players changed dramatically, literally overnight as I reworked "likely" scenarios and pairings.

OF FUCKING COURSE my flip-flop is not based on anything Garnasha has done->he hasn't done anything.

Re-evaluating my suspicions of Ripley and destructor (who I am starting to believe is town) has changed how I am viewing the entire game. It was an instantaneous change of "heart" based on letting go of other suspicions, which ionvolved large frameworks of who, what, when, why!?

My suspicions or lackj thereof of most of the players are absed on my views on one or two people-> a serious deficit and also what has caused my reasoning to become so wishy-washy.

I think Poro reaks right now, and has for sometime-> but I was first unabl;e to get past leet to see it. I was viewing Ripley's non-commital attitude as scummy which led to some strange reasoning as to why Ergo, Zeek, and Poro were town-> something I'll never expand upon now that I believe Ripley is town.

Poro reaks, but Garnasha not being killed now and not being nightkilled (if we don't lynch him and he is a townie who doesn't get NK'd) could really make things difficult in D-2.

My "reads" nad feelings on most players this game have been products of the suspects and pairings I've been looking at. When these change, my stance on other players changes.

What else do I have to go on with Garn or Destructor?

Just a change of heart, huh! Just like that... your opinion changes just like that? That would make things look mighty suspicious if you had, lets take Ripley for instance, put up some sort of argument against him and now decided hes town? Oh wait, thats what has happened. Your like a colour-blind chameleon who is badly trying to find a way into the townie area by designing a theory that people like.

Lynching Garn regardless of what side towns on is stupid. Were hunting scum and lynching townies is going in the opposite direction. I said I would listen to any argument people had about anyone but yours makes absolutely no sense.

[Porochaz]

Before I reply I didnt see your previous 2 posts before replying so apologies in advance...

[Porochaz]

Firstly, judging by the amount of times Ive had to repea myself NEITHER ARE YOU!
Secondly, can you stop swearing. I dont mind minor swear words or in times when its needed but your swearing for the sake of it just now
Thirdly, we disagree about Garn. I dont think hes very townie but I don't have suspicions the scummy way. You see fit to attack him for that, I dont currently.
Fourthly, By the Zeek quote you posted, he seems to think Garn is scummy, you have not said either way but HAVE said it doesnt matter as if he is town he wont be NK'ed. (Which echos Ripley, except Ripley did a much better job at explaining)
Lastly the argument between you and me has drained me, Im going to give it a rest. This has drained me and a bit of the fun out of this game, Ill post still and answer reasonable questions but Im unlikely to stay as involved though till D2 if I survive, I need a semi-rest from this game.

[Porochaz]

Quickly, I don't believe Im defending him for anything townie/scummy but I personally thought I was defending him from a lynch no matter what the alleigance of Garn was. My thinking is that a town lynch isn't a good lynch ever.

[Porochaz]

I wont be the quicklyncher theres not enough evidence I think. I stil stand firm that we should look deeper into this but whatever Ripley or destructor, so be it.

[Porochaz]

Sorry I meant Zeek and destructor as Im not changing, Garn wont vote for himself and everyone else has there vote on Garn currently, I had a big Halloween night out abd am still feeling the effects so apologies for that.

[Porochaz]

Happy Birthday Destructor

[Porochaz]

282-He was taking back a statement because he thought he was wrong
283-A fair enough question
284-I agree with CS here, I dont understand the point in that one.
285-I agree with Garn, I said something similar to this early on in this thread when we talking about it and leet was talking about bandwagons.

[Porochaz]

K, thats not good...

vote: Civil Scum

for the same reasons as before. Plus for a while a few pages back Ripley set up somewhat of a case against you. Killing me would have been to obvious that you were scum, Ripley was the logical second choice.

The thing Im most interested in is Zeeks point of view. He said Me/Garn or Civil/Erg0, so has anything changed? Im also interested in destructors non Erg0's views and how his opinion now differs.

[Porochaz]

I said I wasn't going to jump in on this one, my opinion hasnt changed at all but what you say is true and it wouldnt be fair to lynch CS without him talking so

unvote

, this unvote is almost certainly temporary though and it will go back on as soon as all the other 4 players post reactions on this game.

[Porochaz]

Yeah, good call Ergo. Poro, that vote and unvote is bull crap.

Well to be honest I knew I was going to get that from you...

vote: Civil Scum for the same reasons as before. Plus for a while a few pages back Ripley set up somewhat of a case against you. Killing me would have been to obvious that you were scum, Ripley was the logical second choice.

Don't twist the words (or invent them) of a dead man. Ripely wasn't making a case for me in the last few pages. He was suggesting that I was a deluded townie (a la Turbovolver) and then again was saying that I was noticeably more agitated when once again being at L-2.

Try 208. Yes whilst he thought you could be deluded townie, he didnt say you weren't scum. One of the reasons he didnt vote for you is because he believed you would of said he cracked under the prssure (same page as post 208). In post 226 he then mentions Turbovolver and that he was

uncertain

of you. Thats not to say he wasnt making a case against you, its just he wasnt sure.

I'd say a good set-up on me would have been NK'ing you. Personally I would have
killed Zeek because no one has suspected him thus far.

What Zeek said to this.

Although Ripley was also a logical choice for just about any scum. Ripley dying here at night no more implicates me than any other player. Your case is shitlogic.

If Ripley was setting up to go after anyone, it was Ergo.

Where? Ive been through the last few pages and an find that nowhere. He did briefly cast an eye over him but not much...

The thing Im most interested in is Zeeks point of view. He said Me/Garn or Civil/Erg0, so has anything changed? Im also interested in destructors non Erg0's views and how his opinion now differs.

Interested in, as in You/Garn out the window cause Garn is town. Or interested in agreeing that Ergo and I are a likely pair.

I hope it isn't the latter. Cause out-right voting for me and then retracting your vote after MY SCUM BUDDY appeals to you for caution makes NO SENSE WHATSOEVER.
I really don't believe u are interested in catching scum at this point (ie-by hearing everyone else's opinions). You're just interested in attacking CS (who I am sure is town).

He suggested pairs, I wanted to see where this situation left him in terms of thinking as who he thought was my scum buddy was townie.

I never said Erg0 was your scum buddy. However what he was saying in that post seemed to me to be logical and more from an IC stance than anything else. What he said was true and if there was a slim chance you arent scum then its probably a good idea not to vote you until everyone has had there say.

my opinion hasnt changed at all but what you say is true and it wouldnt be fair to lynch CS without him talking so unvote, this unvote is almost certainly temporary though and it will go back on as soon as all the other 4 players post reactions on this game.

You would like to hear everyone's thoughts, and then (as your unvote is almost certainly temporary) you will then put your vote back on me. This is garbage.

Watch. I can guarantee this is what Ill do. The only reason I took the vote off was as a safety precaution not because I suddenly dont find you scummy.

May I remind the court that the cruxt of Poro's vote for me D-1 was that I had accepted Ripley's TOWN-assessment of my obssesive (and obnoxious) behavior too readily. He said I accepted it too willing. Reductive argument? A vote based on something I could be doing. Paper-thin.

It wasnt only that. Try your constant over reacting, try your relationship with Erg0, try the fact you were so intent on getting on Ripleys case, theres the reasons you suggest... a lot of reasons I voted for you.

My agitation this time around was due in large part to Garn. I was very seriously pissed. I was with Zeek's last post on that one. Garn looked increasingly more scummy. I am glad he's gone, but oh well.

I also went on a crusade against Ripley for a similar reason. He OMGUS me in a way which seemed to say "I am an IC. There is nothing I do that is scummy. If u are getting this impression it is because some kid named RIpley bullied u as a child"
I went too far overboard and have explained why I became convinced Ripley was town several times.

I don't thnk that was the impression at all. Thats a load of crap. His tone or the way he wrote things didnt even sound anything like that.

->Ergo and Porochaz both seemed to think that either Ripley or I was scum for pretty uncertain reasons.

I never found Ripley to be scum

->Why did Poro want Ripley to prove his case by voting for me?
They both seemed that the whole debaucle was scummy on one side, but for no clear reasons.

Because I was trying to prove a point that if he was going to make such a large post condeming you then why wasnt he voting for you. You suggested he was trying to use me, I was making sure he wasnt. Btw, youve asked me this before and I answered it before.

ALSO PORO. Thinking about pairing, Am I paired with Ergo in your eyes? Then why would have listened to him about unvoting me? You're not worried about being wrong, u said it jsut wasn't fair to vote before we've heard from everyone.

Quickly as I have a lecture just now. Ive answered this mainly above. In short, sounded pretty sound advice, the unvotes only temporary till everyones had there say, you may or may not be paired with Erg0 its one of the possibilities.

Other post and Zeeks post coming later.

[Porochaz]

vote: Civil Scum for the same reasons as before

So much has happened just now. Garn turns up town (holy smokes). Ripley dies as the COP. Ergo was coming under serious suspicion jsut before nigt-fall. Destructor took to accusing him on very solid grounds.
Zeek dropped the hammer on a townie (and Ergo put him at L-1) I don't think anyone can really be blamed for that.

Ok so does that mean I have to automatically drop my case on you... destructors post seems a good reason to look at Erg0 more closely but not enough to change my convictions.

And Poro is still after me for the same reasons. And is on record previously telling me that I should have known his vote was always going to go on me or Ergo.

I don't think he has seriously considered anyone besides me.

Well in my eyes you seem totally scummy, Erg0 seems slightly scummy, leet seemed slightly scummy/destructor Im not sure..., Zeek, nothing to scummy from him, I am paying close attention to the others. But for me to drop my case against you when it seems obvious to me you are scum would be stupid.

Your tunnel-vision is extremely dangerous. And faintly scummy. You ask for other people's input and do nothing with it. Yet you're always asking for other people's opinions, always asking good questions about other topics, yet none of it ever seems to influence your play.

I do take it into consideration, it doesnt always effect my play, especially when you stick out as much as you do. Everyones opinions like destructors on Erg0 may effect my game eventually. But not before my own opinion I mean after all, I wouldnt want someone to blame me for voting totally on someone elses case...

I'm interested in what you-PORO have to say about the case destructor was building on Ergo. Becuase you seem to have disregarded it completely.

Its interesting in so far as its a pretty good case against Erg0, its not the sort of topic I can get into easily in mafia so whilst not ignoring it Im not replying to it until I feel I have to. Anyway its an interesting post and until Erg0 posts a response to it, I cant say much more about it. I assume thats what CS is doing considering his response to it was only 1 line saying Erg0 was back on his radar.


Civil Scum wrote:
I'd say a good set-up on me would have been NK'ing you. Personally I would have killed Zeek because no one has suspected him thus far.

However, the fact that Porochaz did not die DOES NOT mean you aren't scum. You say it would have been a good set up against you if he had died... but since he didn't die, it obviously was not a "set up", which could be because you are scum so naturally you wouldn't want to "set up" yourself.
[/quote[
QFT

[Porochaz]

Wow, yes, yes I am, I'm waiting for two people to claim scum because Im that thick... no, however I think it would be unfair to vote for you if not everyone got there say. That is why the votes off and WILL stay off until everyone posts.

[Porochaz]

Christ, just re-reading this page.

Its interesting in so far as its a pretty good case against Erg0, its not the sort of topic I can get into easily in mafia so whilst not ignoring it Im not replying to it until I feel I have to. Anyway its an interesting post and until Erg0 posts a response to it, I cant say much more about it. I assume thats what CS is doing considering his response to it was only 1 line saying Erg0 was back on his radar.

There a lot of explaining that your behavior is okay because of stuff that I have done.

I made the radar comment before Destructor's considerably damning post on Ergo.
You're misrepresenting my behavior and using it as some strange defense of your own.

Im doing this out of order as I have work to do and would rather finish it before I start looking at that long post. As Erg0 said, its basically a rehash of what was stated before and I was going to say that in the PBPA I was going to do yesterday but decided I didn't have the time. However, I think there wasn't much point in commenting on this until Erg0 made a response as it gives a lot more clearer picture than just posting on destructors post.

[Porochaz]

A quick question while I get things together.

Porochaz: Why did you vote so quickly?

I don't see what's so significant about destructor's post at the end of day 1 - he was basically repeating himself and/or splitting hairs. I already answered most of those points in previous posts, and I find it odd that it's suddenly so much more credible now than it apparently was yesterday at deadline (since nobody voted me other than destructor).

CS: I really don't like the way you're tryi voteng to steer people towards me based on Ripley's death. That sounds to me like "my cunning plan to set him up isn't working, I'd better point out that Ripley was suspicious of him".

Don't worry, I'm not so clueless any more. Big post coming in the next couple of days.

I voted quickly as the deaths of last night had in no way changed my opinion of Civil. I didn't see any point of beating round the bush with my voting when it was clear I was going to vote Civil. Then you made your post and I realised that if I was wrong (which btw I'm sure Im not, but I have been known to be sure and be wrong before) then that was it game over. So I unvote, let everyone speak have there opinion then put my vote back on therefore knowing everyones stance on the game and to be sure that people have there say, whether its against Civil, against me or anyone, then I will put my vote back on.

[Porochaz]

Im interested in that as well, it seemed like he was well after me and then suddenly there was a post about an Erg0/destructor pairing, which is an interesting theory... but is weird in the general scheme of things.

Large post coming up in a few hours...

[Porochaz]

K so I made a large post but it timed out and I dont have time now so youll have to wait longer for it, sorry.

[Porochaz]

K cause youve now made another long post Im going to just do the main points.

After I pressed Poro... to genuinely fabricated

No I used my own case on all of my arguments against you. Ripley had already suggested you were that kind of person before he linked to the Turbovolver case.

Just a change of heart... to

Lynching Garn regardless of what side towns on is stupid. Were hunting scum and lynching townies is going in the opposite direction. I said I would listen to any argument people had about anyone but yours makes absolutely no sense.

He doesn't for a second consider that my post explaining my wishy-washy presumptions is genuine. You can read it for yourself and decide. Post 252.

This chameleon thing in the town area resembles his conclusion that I was "screaming for a way out"->And as Ripley pointed out, a way out of what? I wasn't particularly on the radar when I went after Ripley.

You were definetly on mine... but no suprises there. Im sure the other players wouldnt have been able to say "Civil, he must be town"

His last point basically calls me stupid for agreeing with Zeek and Ripley.

Nope I was saying that thought process was stupid. Don't take it as a personal attack I obviously said it generically so I was either calling all 3 of you stupid (which wouldnt be wise from my front) or calling your thought process stupid.

Earlier:

I don't have much time...to ...(which could still go to Civil)

Porochaz was looking at Ergo and Leet (supposedly)

Was looking at Erg0, never looking at Leet around the time you posted your two quotes I said That I was tentatively putting Leet as town. I said you were "scummy/nooby" and wasnt sure between the two hence my unvote. I went into this a lot more in my OP but the just is there.

Really? Did you lie to make me think the pressure was off?

No I never did that, I always said there was something scummy about you

17 posts later

It wasnt just the over defensiveness, it was everything from and after the second request to take my vote down. A couple of people (including yourself?) told him that it was nothing to be worried about and its just to generate discussion. But he asked for a second time and OMGUS me purely on the basis I was voting him thats what made me think he was scummy.

Okay, but not anymore right (17 posts)...

I personally think the OMGUS vote was a big part of this and was a desperate scum trying to find a way out

Whaa?

Whaa? Im saying exactly the same thing in both of those quotes...

Around this time Poro changes his tune on Leet/Destructor, saying he finds his odd behavior townish. But Post 143 does not read this way.

Unfortunetly destructor, you replaced him, so technically you ARE him. Whilst we can't ask you what your motives were at that point, we would not be wise to take it into account whilst voting and unfortunately as you are basically the same person (I know that sounds bad but within game terms its true) we can hold you responsible. However if I was going to vote for you I would be interested to see some more posts from you first, especially the 2nd half of that PBPA you promised us...

Responsible for behavior Poro had just previously decided was not too scummy. ?

That quote was a hypothetical quote explaining why people would vote for destructor based on leets actions. The second half of that quote was explaining what should be done to help people get a voew of destructor rather than leet and I was interested in his PBPA.

Poro:Why do you include yourself in this? Why do you see yourself as a potential pairing? That seems a bit suspicous...

CS:Does it?

Yes it does, why list yourself it doesnt make sense, can you see yourself in a potential pairing with anyone else? Of course your not going to think your in a potential pairing with anyone if your town so you wouldnt list it. If your scum, you pair yourself up with someone to go "see Im not scummy at all". By listing yourself it makes you look more scummy, there was no logical reason to do it whether you were scum or town.

Poro consistently says these are the people I find more scummy than "the others"
but he really hasn't attempted to build a case.

I think I made a fairly large case against you. I made a case on Erg0 as well. Even if it was largely on Zeeks.

Watch your language please.

You made me laugh here. Ok I'll try.

Next Post coming up...

[Porochaz]

K will type in

bold

as its probably easier for everyone.

Poro fabricated reasons to find me scummy. He's been completely tunnel-visioned this entire game (self-admitedly)

no I didn't ever admit it, I keep looking at you, but I have also been looking at Erg0 and destructor, my times spent mostly on replying to your posts but I dont see the point in convoluting things when Im sure about you

but has not used this to implicate any other play.e

CS: I really don't like the way you're trying to steer people towards me based on Ripley's death. That sounds to me like "my cunning plan to set him up isn't working, I'd better point out that Ripley was suspicious of him".

As I said, I don't think that Ripley's death can be used as evidence. He was a logical choice for just about any scum.

I disagree to an extent, there have been less active players and others who didn't get involved with the Ripley-Chaz-CS thing. Killing off the one person who had made a case against you but went on to defend you would seem a logical choice for you though

I found it strange that you-Ergo killing Ripley didn't cross Poro's mind. That's what I was getting at. He automatically suspected me and gave some shoddy-ass reasoning as to why Ripley dying imlpicated just me. When really it was going to be Zeek or Ripley who died, regardless of who the scum are.

Erg0 killing Ripley, possible I guess but no advantage in it I dont think

Poro, do u look both ways before u cross the street?

yes, more than once on occasion

In this vein Ergo, by suggesting it was a set-up by me, then u must agree he is the person you would have killed IF you were scum. ? Also, you calim that Ripley's death is what I'm using to steer people towards you. I didn't think that was the case. You did this to Zeek early too. Calling it feeble reasoning, an understatement to be sure.

Post 314. Ergo. It is also possible that Destructor and Zeek had not looked a the game yet. In which case, none of this applies.

Zeek obviously has

I'm also a little sick of IC tips. As I said, throughout the game Ergo's contribution has been less than noteworthy.

This is a newbie game... IC tips help mostly.

This was the point in Destructors case which I had issue with.

Erg0 wrote:
Given that he was using these assumptions as the basis for a vote, I found this notable. I was attacking his assumptions, just as you're attacking mine.

What are these assumptions Zeek made? And the fact that you've suggested here that you found something that never happened (Zeek using some 'assumptions' as the basis for a vote) 'notable' pretty damning. You fabricated evidence about Zeek. Why?

I believe Ergo had adressed this. The overall impression of Zeek's post was anti-CS. Ergo later recalled the events as Zeek voting for me, which in fact he didn't. It is not entirely accurate to say he was fabricating evidence when it was inaccurate memory.

Ergo being ready to flip a coin on me and Ripley after uninvolvement doesn't sit right. Also he really hasn't answered Destructors's questions to my satisfaction.

Getting involved now... when I read destructors post for the second time I felt most of this had been stated before. He stated this and whilst an new/restated answer may be useful, he probably (I cant remember and am not looking it up as Im about to go eat pizza) has answered it before and is not as patient as me when going to repeat himself

Leading up to Garn's lynch (when me and Poro were bickering AGAIN) he says that a lot of it feels like townie vs. townie arguing. But if he wasn't incredibly suspicious of Garn, Zeek, Ripley, opr Destructor, then he must have been considering that there was some scumminess between either Poro or myself.

However, I'm not so certain that Poro or CS are town, although I am leaning towards Poro being town, especially now that we know Garnasha was.

Could you expand on this? I find Porochaz's generous labeling of Peapod and his "well I'm not gonna lynch Garn, you guys go ahead if you'd like" more damning now that Garn has turned up town. In fact, I believe Poro's entire treatment of the Garnasha dilemma suspicious.

why?

Civil Scum wrote:
Zeek will go on to die, and then we can sort it out. Seems stupid, but it is logical.


What is this suppose to mean?!?! Are you trying to hint that you are going to kill me during Night 2?

If we nail a scum, you are the likely canidate for the second NK. That's all that was.

I wrote:

Now that I am becoming suspicious of Poro and to a lesser extent Ergo (based on Garnasha's alignment)

Long before Destructor's late D-1 post. Ergo was back on my radar at this point especially if Garn turned up town. Calling destructor's questions "splitting hairs" and stating that I'm using Ripley's death as the main point in steering towards him is all understated side-stepping.

I very sincerely wanted Garn to die.

Nice line there

Just mention that he's back on your radar, but keep pushing for townie garn to be lynched. And then when the issue doesn't go away:

He looked increasingly scummy, and I also saw him as a potential pair for Poro. Can you really blame me for p[ushing for his lynch?

With Garn as town Poro/Ergo are tied for second in my mind. I can't rule out destructor however. But this only works if Poro is some insane townie who found scum on the first page and never lkooked anywhere else, although he simultaneously claims that he has and hasn't.

Wait Im looking at you as scum, this makes no sense

[Porochaz]

I like that last post Zeek.

Why?

[Porochaz]

Wow, I really cannot be assed replying to any of this...however as before Im in

bold

Alright. When u said it sounded like townie-townie arguing. Between Ripley and Poro and I. Fair enough.

I want Poro dead.

really? I would never of guessed...

poro wrote:

Lynching Garn regardless of what side towns on is stupid. Were hunting scum and lynching townies is going in the opposite direction. I said I would listen to any argument people had about anyone but yours makes absolutely no sense.


Whatever. I disagree. What side town's on? We're hunting scum and lynching TOWNIES is going in the opposite direction? Garn isn't town by default, and even so I firmly believe in this case it doesn't really matter. There will be nothing to indicate he is town going into D-2. OH AND HES NOT EVEN READING THE THREAD!!!!

To which Porochaz replied

Firstly, judging by the amount of times Ive had to repea myself NEITHER ARE YOU!

Wrong. Anyways, all Poro ever repeated was that he's sure I'm scum for such and such a reason. It's stupid to lynch Garn, etc. Post 210 is when he votes CS. You can see here that "gone too far to be a deluded townie" has nothing to do with the vote. However there are some other flimsy pretenses for switching his vote back to me.

Wrong, I dont know how many times I ve had to repeat "Im not basing my case purely on Ripleys post"

Secondly, can you stop swearing. I dont mind minor swear words or in times when its needed but your swearing for the sake of it just now

I conceded.

point?

Thirdly, we disagree about Garn. I dont think hes very townie but I don't have suspicions the scummy way.

Intenionally vague?

I dont have any feelings either way, whats wrong with that?

You see fit to attack him for that, I dont currently.

That wasn't just why I was attacking him. Anyways, you weren't attacking HIM becuase you thought the "smart" play was to lynch ME. But you case (which again is just basically a bunch of weak bits you invent and pile and clump together incessantly, like a dung beetle who badly wants the ball to become large enough that it will carry him to finer dunes. You drilling me this entire game does not get you into townsville.

the rest of the people playing that game can decide that, I think your scum, Ive quoted posts from you so dont you dare say I invented stuff up about you! I didnt attack him because the case for it was shite! (Ok I swore, it was necassery)

Fourthly, By the Zeek quote you posted, he seems to think Garn is scummy, you have not said either way but HAVE said it doesnt matter as if he is town he wont be NK'ed. (Which echos Ripley, except Ripley did a much better job at explaining)
...

So Ripley's belief that I was a deluded townie was good enough for Poro to drop suspicions of Ripley

was I ever suspicous of Ripley, no I dont think so...

(base don that he had posted negative CS but not Fos'ed or voted) but I am not allowed to accept something Ripley said, because it's just echoing? I responded to Garn about this saying that if I were to explain what Zeek and RIpley were saying, I would have probably just muddied it up. Anyways it doesn't effect the validity of the arguments for lynching Garn whether I repeat them or not.


Another flimsy pretense for being sure I'm scum

Now Ripleys post helped me decide between what I see as my two options just now. Ripley accuses you of spin, you accuse Ripley of word bending, your repeating him.

Now Im happy with my vote...

Ripley did make some fancy posts which served no purpose other to damage credibility or assign "proper names" to things. Notably when he said to Ergo 'ah the power of words, is there any practical difference between looking around for other topics of discussion and trying to change the subject, yet one sounds so much sneakier than the other. Yeah, one does sound sneaky. But Ripley was leaning townie for me around this point, so this minorly-snide comment on what Ergo was doing made no sense.

Im sure when I made that comment I was talking about you, believe it or not, Erg0 had nothing to do with it. Maybe I misunderstood, maybe I didnt considering your only bringing this up now, in your quest to look up my backlog of posts

Ripley, thanks for explaining why your votes not on Civil Scum, I see exactly where your coming from but again, Im not changing my mind. I don't think CS is overconfident, by looking once again at the L-2 situation early on. He may not like your playing style but it jut smells newbie scum screaming for a way out rather than overconfident townie who thinks people with a different playing style are all scum.

So, Ripley is cleared becuase he has good enough reasons to believe I am town. So Poro says, 'alright Ripley fair enough. But your reasons aren't good enough for me.' Yet he doesn't flesh out his case, get other's behind it. Poro just says, 'fine that's a good enough reason why you don't have to vote for him, but I am still going to because I'm sure he's scum, whatever guys I'm not changing.'

I made a case against you multiple times, oh look Im repeating myself again...

And then he adds another flimsy piece of "evidence" which didn't exist/wasn't considered prior. Here it was me Screaming for a way out.

thats not evidence thats me stating something

Oh and lastly here's a some strange anti-Garn lynch Porochaz-nonsense
Post 240

Because I would still be willing to listen to a Garn or a destructor case...

A few posts later.

Quickly, I don't believe Im defending him for anything townie/scummy but I personally thought I was defending him from a lynch no matter what the alleigance of Garn was. My thinking is that a town lynch isn't a good lynch ever.

Odd
A few later..

I wont be the quicklyncher theres not enough evidence I think. I stil stand firm that we should look deeper into this but whatever Ripley or destructor, so be it.

He stands firm that we should look into it deeper, which I am reading as 'keep my vote on CS unless someone has "IAMSCUM" hidden in every post'

well I am convinced I have to say, but I did say Id listen to a case about other people, I did, the case wasnt good enough. If it was a better case then maybe. Just because I say Ill read other peoples cases with interest doesnt mean automatic Fos or Vote

When asked about adressing the wrong people

sorry, didnt you say lastly up above...

Sorry I meant Zeek and destructor as Im not changing...

But want to look into what deeper?

??? K dont understand this bit

Can I second the prod on Destructor?

Well maybe you could actually look at my response to this post and respond to it instead of looking through my back catalogue of posts to try and find something which is allegedly scummy but you (or anyone else) doesn't notice it the first time. The amount of stuff youve been posting about me recently is overwhelming. Its really suprising that not one out of the other 6 players noticed "how scummy I was" the first time. Or MAYBE its the fact your taking every little post analysing and twisting it to beyond recognition. Missing parts out of posts, not reading other parts etc. to try and make me look scummy.

[Porochaz]

Right your all going to love this... my posts going against Civil, Day 1 (i stopped after the list got beyong 4 and a half pages) feel free to disregard this post everyone this is just to show I did make a case against Civil (I also put in a bit about Ripley not being the basis of my case which I said multiple times but did not put them all in)


Yeah by the way my premade bolded things didnt work to highlight the posts so...

All quotes inside the quotes are made by CS I think

Post no 1,

As I already said, I will not consider changing my vote and until yourself or other people convince me otherwise. This may be the random stage of the game, and if it makes you feel better, its still a random vote with no basis except to make you sweat, which you seem to be doing... I'm not one to change my vote without making sure I, personally, am sure. I will give you a chance however, you seem keen not to be two votes away from the slaughter and have now asked me twice to remove my vote, so beyond the reasoning that "I am a townie and if you lynch me you lynch one of your own" how can I be sure that not lynching you is a benifit to the rest of the group?
------------------------------------------------------
Post no 2,Civil Scum, your vote is purely on the basis Im voting for you, yes? You feel you should not be at L - 2 so early as your new? (however the aim of the game is to kill mafia, not be nice to the new guys) but as someone said before someone should be because if we all voted differetly its like voting nothing at all. So, obviously, not voting for myself, who should I vote for?

You are currently the prime suspect in my book. I can tell you now my vote will be staying on you unless something major changes my mind because 23 posts in, (including mine) I am sure your scum. Your excuse "Im new" doesn't hold up with me. This is my first game here, 3 other people are new as well... and your OMGUS vote confirmed it, you actally didn't give a reason beyond the fact you want me at L - 2 as well presumably to take the pressure off yourself... I dont think that reason is sound.
---------------------------------------------------------
Post no 3, He is responding in that post to me, he then asks straight after to reconsider my vote. He votes for leet. This is a random vote.

I say no.

He asks again.

I say no again.

Because I refuse to budge he OMGUS votes me, which he is allowed to do providing he's doing it for the good of the town and not because Im voting him, which he has admitted.

After his random vote leet is not mentioned once.

The point remains, I responded to his "please can you change your vote" because he asked me, he didn't ever ask leet to take the vote off of him. It would have been ok if he had left it at that or then asked leet and whilst my vote may still be on him he would be looking a lot less suspicious. He looks so suspicous now because he asked a second time and OMGUS me... He also tries to pass off Ripley noticing his uneasiness as non-evidence as he's new. When whilst that may be correct its still able to be used to show he is scum.
-------------------------------------------------
Post no 4,

CS wrote:

As it stands, all I can say for near cerainty are a few pairings I find impossible.

Ergo and myself: All of the suspicions revolving around Ergo's alignment are based on the case that I am town, and he is buddying up to me. I don't see how this case can stand as scum bailing out scum.

Why do you include yourself in this? Why do you see yourself as a potential pairing? That seems a bit suspicous...
CS wrote:

Porochaz and myself: too early, too risky

Leet and Porochaz: also too blatantly coordinated

Ergo and Leet: I find it highly unlikely that Ergo (as scum) would help take the heat off of me and place his vote directly at his scum-buddy's feet. Although, leet has messed up pretty bad...so maybe later I'll reconsider this one.

Zeek and anyone: I can't find a single scummy morsel in Zeek's posts.

Peapod: leaning towards scum for no apparent reasons

Ripley: 100% unsure

Here you go into PBPA... Your doing the impossible partners thing... who's peapod scum with? Id like to know who are your most likely scum pairings?

Your 100% unsure about Ripley, how can you be 100% unsure, that sounds deliberetly confusing... you can't be 100% unsure, you can be unsure but not 100% because by being unsure your struggling between 2 or more choices, thus not being 100%
-------------------------------------------------
Post no 5, Im bored of your talk of the General Feeling, your talk in the post above is more attacking Ripley rather than defending yourself.(which kinda adds to your "blaze of glory" thing). You also claim that Garn, me, Zeek and Erg0 are all townies at the moment. To keep us on side perhaps?
---------------------------------------------------
Post no 6, ...well you know, Im going on my feeling rather than "what Ripley thinks". CS, I have argued with you most of this thread, the only thing I think we ever agreed on was leet and his weird thinking behind us. Now Ripleys post helped me decide between what I see as my two options just now. Ripley accuses you of spin, you accuse Ripley of word bending, your repeating him………CS, there are just to many inconsistencies and bad posts, you bombard us with your general feeling and don't say outright what you actually think your counter-arguments to Ripley aren't that great as I highlighted above, you did nothing much to change that. I said this:

You also claim that Garn, me, Zeek and Erg0 are all townies at the moment. To keep us on side perhaps?

and then afterwards you say twice to me

Quote:
Don't be the scalp Poro.

Everything you do is trying to keep the 4 of us on side, but in the wrong way. You would have a better chance of making me think twice if you weren't trying to attack Ripley so much and actually started defending yourself more. In that line your basically saying "your going to look stupid if you dont do as I say".

K another thing,

The thing with Zeek and Poro keeping their votes on Ergo, and his being at L-2 for so long, and so much attack but no FOS no voting, leads me to believe Zeek and Poro are town, as well as Ergo. I don't have time to go into this, gotta study for a test. Let's just call it a feeling for now.

Apart from the general feeling thing which so annoys the hell out of me you then say this:

Ergo, that was just to say that if Ripley manages to get me lynched here, and u survive the night, then town is probably screwed.

Why? I am trying to think of a situation where this statement wouldn't contradict the one above but I cant think of one. The only clear situation I can think of is that you are now saying erg0's scum. If you truely are town, then isn't that going to cast Ripley in a bad light? Do you not think that we may think before we vote?

My vote ain't changing, if Im a "scalp" so be it.

Oh, and your overreacting again as soon as someone puts pressure on you
---------------------------------------
Post no 7, Moving on...

Back with more on some of the other quesitons, and to adress other players besides Porochaz who seems to have made up his mind here. "...the evidence suggests he has gone too far to be a deluded townie"->Okay, what does that even mean? What evidence? Please justify your case before accepting Ripley's crap logic case.

Well I could do the falling asleep thing again, however the evidence could be anything from the first 3 or so pages and the last few... hell theres probably some stuff in the middle thats scummy as well, just to tired to go looking because yes, after a week of lectures, I am actually in real life tired and slightly grounchy, (can you tell?) I HAVE JUSTIFIED MY CASE OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN!!! and just to get this clear because I havent mentioned this AT ALL before, Im voting you for my OWN reasons I mentioned in my OWN posts. Ripleys post helped a bit but in the grand scheme of things you were almost certainly the one I was going to go for.

Attacking/defending, you could be typing the words of all the Christmas Carols you know into one long post and Id still say your over reacting. Just cause I say that, it doesn't specify what your doing in relation to other people in the game.

Moving on again...

Ripley, thanks for explaining why your votes not on Civil Scum, I see exactly where your coming from but again, Im not changing my mind. I don't think CS is overconfident, by looking once again at the L-2 situation early on. He may not like your playing style but it jut smells newbie scum screaming for a way out rather than overconfident townie who thinks people with a different playing style are all scum.
----------------------------------------
Post no 8, The thing is though your whole panicky attitude, the whole Erg0 defending/distancing thing and then your attack on Ripley. It all feels scummy to me, now you are the attackee so your bound to say its a weak case but I don't think it is. Me, Ripley and yourself have different playstyles. Me, I stick to my convictions, ok I will prod elsewhere but the main focus of my attack will be on the person most scummy. You, from my perspective, look at post X for something scummy and start picking away at it in the hope you find something decent to build on. Ripley has a less aggressive way, playing slightly more in the background, except when pushed forward, which you did just a wee while ago.

Yep, the case against Erg0 is affected by the whole thing with you and forms a large part of it. Except, my case against Erg0 is, to a large extent, fueled by you. So I look at you both and go "hmmm, I wonder how Erg0/Civil will react with Civil/Erg0 gone. How the dynamics will change? Now I can choose either one of you for the vote on this basis however it would be better if I went for the one looking more scummy from elsewhere to have a better chance of catching scum. That, my friend, is currently you.
-----------------------------------------
Post 9, Not quite. I think that although your acting just the way the example Ripley made (turning everything someone says into something scummy, finding not enough support so moving onto someone else) your doing it to look more deluded townie than scummy now (possibly not before Ripley mde that example) I found your sudden switch onto me very interesting. Just as if you had moved onto anyone else in the game, coz lets face it, you were pretty dead set on Ripley for a while...
-------------------------------------------------
Post 10, Well this was an interesting one. "I find chaz scummy, I did find Ripley scummy so... Im gonna go vote for Garn. He could be scum, he could be town for all I care. Theres no point in having him around. I just saw the suspicion mount up on him and jump on the impending bandwagon early."

Done.

[Porochaz]

On this second post. Sure, These are the various places you've accused me in some form or another. There is some back-tracking though which doesn't come across in this simple list. Like when u decided I was more townie than scum

I wasn't sure whether you were nooby/scummy, when Erg0 came along I saw him as more scummy than you, if you look at the PBPA I still site you as probably the second most scummiest there.

, until fingers came back my way. When you cited my "over-eager" acceptance of Ripley's deluded townie observations as the basis for your vote

maybe I should have put all the times I said Ripleys post was not the pure basis of my vote, although that post would have been twice as long

. Although you had re-voted me prior to this idea.

Anywho. I don't think you can use your attack on me as a defense of yourself.

never did think I could use it as a defense against myself, I was trying to show why I was voting for you, that my suspicion of you was throughout this thread, my reasons, that Ripleys post was not the basis of my own vote...

And your case is a big long string of ever-changing CS=Scum. You being sure I'm scum for whatever reason you can come up with next doesn't make.

not going to come up with any new ways I will stick to the ones I have.

As for the "Screaming for a way out"-sure just a statement. But completely irrational.

You say you were never suspicious of Ripley. Although, you kind of said you would be if I was lynched and turned up town. You wouldn't go on to bet your life on it, but it would have strenghtened my case. You said so.

that was cicumstantial if you were town, then Ripleys long post before he said he thought you were town would come under suspicion, just as I would guess I would for many of my posts against you, unfortunetly we are in a situation where we cannot look at it like that now, you have not been lynched, I havent been lynched or Nk'ed either therefore any suspicion about what dead person X might be if alive person Y is town/scum is irrelevant

Were you telling me if I am town then to not worry? Looks a bit like you suggesting that I should be okay with martrydom. But lynching town is bad. Especially if all it does is slightly strenghten a case on someone you are not too sure about.

Garn, anyone? I was never telling you not to worry, just that if it happened then what position I would be in

You reak. All the stuff you've stated, claimed, whatever you want to call it, has been adressed by myself or otherwise. And u just switch it. Find a new angle.

Well I could say the same about you, this seems to echo what I said in the second part of my last paragraph in post 334. So I say your twisting words against me, you say Im twisting words against you, its basically a deadlock. I personally have said all I can on this subject methinks

I don't even want you to reply to my posts anymore. I would like to hear from someone else.

Right back at you, I'm bored of this argument between us, were never going to resolve this, hell its not even for us to resolve. So other people, I hand my mike over to you, unless CS makes another post about me, I will not be posting anymore about him. I'm going to do what he suggested and look at other people, destructor in particular, my vote won't change anywhere near soon but it can't be harmful to look at other people just now and revise my thoughts on them. Maybe ask a few questions to different people. It is more than a 2 person game. I hope CS agrees and does the same

Wow Ive spent over 90 minutes in this thread in the last 3 hours, Ive had enough! Good night.

[Porochaz]

I'm not twisting words or just digging up posts. I'm showing that you have had strange reasons for being suspicious of me the entire game, and they constantly change.

well I think Ive been constant, but there you go

I'm drawing a common thread. U make it sound like I shouldn't be re-reading the game.

I can understand why you think that and I just got lynched in another game for re-reading through the thread and making a post based my re-read, if you can link any past point brought up then fine but if your stating something new that was from 5-10 pages back then how come noone noticed it before? Maybe because it isn't scummy at all?

...but Im unlikely to stay as involved though till D2

if I survive

...

Isn't that an odd thing to include at that point. I personally didn't feel that Porochaz was a likely lynch canidate anyways.

I never meant lynch I meant Nk'ed and you never know with mafia. If for instance you aren't scum, NK'ing me wouldve condemned you

[Porochaz]

Christ on a bike Poro. Nobody noticed it is not the whole story. Also, do you expect us to have all the evidence we need to weed out scum in the first five pages.

I don't get this the evidence from my case comes from throughout the thread right up to the present day, so whilst this covers the first five pages it also covers other stuff afterwards, which I have mentioned before. You are taken things at random throughout the thread now, having not mentioned them before.

Or is EVERYONE just supposed to be sure in the first 2.5 pages?

Never said that, and I dont particularly no where you got that from

It is just slightly slighty possible are that you are an outright insane townie. In which case we're pretty well screwed.

Why? Its only you who has expressed direct suspicion of me. Others have said they look into me but never said Fos/Vote Porochaz and if, lets say, for this example, you are scum does that make me insane still?

[Porochaz]

Porochaz

• This sentence from post 23 confuses me:

  leetonicon, I like your erm... logic... if Im getting this right... so Im going to ask you to clarify your statement, so I make sure before I make any wrongful assumptions.

  This was in response to leet's 22, in which he talks about having two wagons being good. Porochaz FoSes leet for the same post in post 28, which appears to contradict his earlier statement. Am I missing some sarcasm or something here?
  no I was unsure what he meant I was genuinely asking him to state exactly what he was saying so I could respond better.

[Porochaz]

I particularly take issue with his response to when I wrote "OH, AND HE's NOT EVEN READING THE THREAD" - To which Poro replied 'Well, neither are you'- Which is not only untrue, but suggests that Poro is alright with Garn not participating.

I wasnt defending Garn there I was annoyed at you and me having to repeat myself. That part had nothing to do with Garn whatsoever

[Porochaz]

Damn it Poro.

This was your response to my explanation for the flop and such. Did you not expect me to respond negatively to this? Also, the conversation at this point was revolving a lot around Garn and the deadline (which seemed to escape you at the time) You do defend him weakly in the post following mine. And u don't seem that upset that he's not threading the thread. Anyways, with the stance you claim to have at that point, you should have been defending Garn outright.

Once again you're using your attacks on me as a defense for your own questionable/shabby behavior.

K, I generally expect you to respond negatively to anything I do. Besides, Garns not a baby, he doesn't post like one, Im sure he can defend himself? I attacked you because at that point I had to repeat something over and over again to you. That wasn't ever saying your scummy, just that you seemed to be reading my posts without your reading glasses on. I think I should decide the content of my posts regarding people.

That last line is bull and I dont even know where it comes from. Care to elaborate?

[Porochaz]

Well that point (which by the way was made ages ago and WAS I believe picked up by yourself and I explained) was to show that I thought at that stage you were scum and Erg0 was scum. However when I thought Erg0 was scum, I also thought his case depended heavily on you, so if you were removed, I would watch Erg0's reaction. Although, that quote is in no way sheilding me... Im trying here, believe me but I can't see how that quote is used in defence, just that quote, suggests I am attacking both Erg0 and yourself, nothing else.

[Porochaz]

If you're alright with Poro's "consistency" now, then you must be coming after me. If it was really just a matter of transcribing notes, you could have done it easily by now. From where I'm sitting, whatever you're about to do is going to reak of necessity.

Although we may have made it look like a two horse race to the finish of day 2 but from townies point of view there are still 4 players that could be scum. Erg0 has posted about me but not you yet. I would wait to see what he says before you start second guessing him.

However, the fact that Porochaz did not die DOES NOT mean you aren't scum. You say it would have been a good set up against you if he had died... but since he didn't die, it obviously was not a "set up", which could be because you are scum so naturally you wouldn't want to "set up" yourself.

QFT

What Zeek said is true. BUT-Poro, you're saying that the very fact that you are alive means that I AM scum. Can you not see the problem with reasoning this way?

Yes. if I was reasoning this way, the only thing QFT says is I agree with the quoted exerpt. Obviously I am thinking you are scum, I mean it doesnt take a brain surgeon to work that one out, however me QFTing that post was not in anyway saying "You are scum, cause I didnt die" its saying "Cause I didn't die, it's a possibility Civil didnt want to set himself up". Now, I believe your scum but I didnt say it in that post.

[Porochaz]

Alright.

But hey, weren't you like, suspicious of Ergo?

If you absolutely had to choose, who's your second choice?

Yes but I dont see the point in second guessing him until all his views become clear, then respond to that.

Currently my second choice would be destructor. His Erg0 post, many of the points had been made and had been replied to. The next post he sort of explodes over me and you, spending the first half of the post with the impression that you are cummy then the next half thinking I am scummy but not really ever coming to a conclusion about it. From that post also I noticed this

Essentially, coming into Day Two after the two deaths, my perception of Erg0 has changed and I don't believe they've done much to affect my case (which may even be something to think about!). But Erg0 still hasn't responded and it is beginning to look like he's sitting back and letting the town point at each other instead.

I think I just called the kettle black. LOL

Is destructor just sitting back and letting town go to work on each other? Is his lack of posting scummy or has he genuinely not had time to look at the thread anymore?

I also like consistency in the tone, destructors is all over the place. Just after Erg0 posted the analysis on me, there was part of the post that made me think that destructor worked as a lawyer "Do you deny this?" It felt very formal and strict. Which would be ok if the quoted bit above didnt sound like destructor was talking to his best mate. I mean I accept variation in the tone but not to that degree.

I said in my early PBPA that leetonicon was quite likely to be town but I was watching with interest, well combined with destructors posts it starting less to look newbie and more scummy to me.

[Porochaz]

Come on Ergo, like seriously if we were to reach into a bag and pull out the red sweets... you're clearly missing the joke.

I used this as a comparison which people rubbished, so why are you still using it, unless your slagging me off?

My stance has changed slightly, whilst my vote is on you firmly, if we were heading towards a deadline then I would consider a destructor lynch. Erg0's replys don't seem scummy, unless hes using his IC status as a front for being scum (which Ive read in other games, not from him) now that would just be shite and I hope he isn't doing that, I dont think hes doing that.

[Porochaz]

Oh yeah your right everyones spoken now so Ill be good to my word

vote Civil Scum

[Porochaz]

Civil, I still think your scum, I know the games over and all but... you know, it just seems to obvious...

lynch Civil Damnit!

I had a thought it may be a Zeek/Erg0 pairing a few days ago simply because I didnt suspect them... and that I would look like such a fool if it was them. Well, an even bigger fool now...

Well done to the mafia!

Lessons learned:Major tunnel vision is uncool and hard to get out of, even when your starting to feel like its crumbling round about you.

[Porochaz]

eta good game everyone

[Porochaz]

If we were scum in that game, I think it would have been a great game if we were scum together. Out of interest are you staying on the forum now, or have you satisfied your "blaze of glory" that you were talking about earlier on in the thread?

[Porochaz]

Civil/or anyone else Ive just /inned for the next newbie game, t'would be great if you joined me.